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What is P2W (pay to win)
-
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭P2W is paid for gear progression.
No. Eso does not have that. The possible builds I've seen are far too varied for even the Warden or Vma argument to work.
And by gear Progression transmuting healthy juwelry into robust doesnt increase your damage and makes it stronger?
A lot of players using advancing yokeda for dps, a vanilla heavy armor set where juwelry comes in healthy.
To get 5 medium you need to use at least 1 juwelry to get the 5 piece bonus and robust is just superior to healthy for dps.
Sure its not a big difference but its still an advantage and thats all i said.0 -
Uviryth✭✭✭✭✭
The moment you can buy Stuff that lets you bypass anything (including and most importantly, time), a game IS p2w.DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »This stupid P2W debate again... ESO is NOT P2W, just get over it.
0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2w
Still i can transmute without buying cwc.
I can farm vouchers, buy from guildstore or a Friend Guild member got it in his House. No real life money needed. Not for juwelry crafting. I already stated that you still can buy or get crafted juwelry without summerset but my main point is, that i cant transmute it without summerset. So i am forced into crafted sets to make use of the new traits that came with Summerset. And dropped sets are mostly superior to crafted ones.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.
you cannot buy transmute station without CWC and you cannot research traits to transmute to without summerset
still not pay to win.
pay to acess, sure, but not pay to win.
here's what pay to win is. having to buy cash shop items oh being unable to progress because mobs hit too hard, and you don't hit hard enough. best gear ONLY being available from cash shop and you buy it and are immediately more powerful, significantly so without having to do anything else.
being unable to craft anything sucessfuly past a certain point unless you buy cash shop items. to explain what I mean... imagine if upgrading gear or weapons in ESO is 75% sucess rate... unless you buy cash shop item and it is THE ONLY way to reach 100% sucess rate. and the further you upgrade, the lower sucess rate is. imagine if your chance to gold jewelry or weapons can only hit 50% unless you buy cash shop item.
THAT is pay to win.
So, i cant buy transmu station with craft vouchers? Or from a Guild store?
I didnt know, i never tried.
Okay then by your logic lets make it not p2w. Put the item in an area wich you can only access by buying a certain DLC and the item needs to be farmed and is bind on pickup. Problem solved, no p2w anymore cause it cant be bought directly in cash shop. EZ.
which is exactly how it works with dropped items. and since you only need to have base game to buy overland or crafted items from other players? no point in making them BoP, cause selling to other players via in game gold is NOT pay to win. the fact that you can acess transmute station without having to buy the DLC provided a friend or guildie gives you acess? is actualy further argument that its NOT pay to win either.
heck, that you can buy crafting stations in cash shop is not pay to win either as they are actualy cheaper to buy with in game gold.
Can i transmute my healthy juwelry into robust/arcane/triune/infused or any other trait without owning summerset?
No.
Is robust/arcane/infused juwelry better then healthy for dps?
Yes.
That all i Need for myself to say in my personal opinion that i see this as an p2w element.
WOW is seen as the gold standard for MMO, the next two are Final fantasy and ESO. All but ESO require sub.For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
This has nothing to do with holy ZOS or fanboys^^ You assume that whatever needs cash spent and CAN give you and advantage in a fight is p2w. That seems to be your defintion of p2w. But as already numerously stated, that would mean almost every game ever created that brought new content out and had you pay for it is p2w. Sure you can see it as that, but then the term doesn't mean much anymore.
Think about it this way. The usual MMO game way was to bring out expansions, which you had to buy, or you were basically locked from the game. That is pay2play, not pay2win. ESO has basically this, BUT with the exception that you are not locked from content that you already payed for. Imagine, if those new expansions and DLCs did NOT have any interesting combat options whatsoever. Who would buy those? The game needs to be financed, after all.
tl;dr: Yes, there is a lot of content in ESO you need to buy to have access to, and which can give you an advantage. But if this is your only criteria for p2w, then every other game is p2w aswell that even remotely tries to charge you on an update per update basis. And many others, me included, have other criteria for p2w in addition.
I didnt stated additional content or any kind of dlc is automaticly p2w.
It needs to be balanced. I dont play another MMO so i can only compare to a few games. For example Battlefield. It also gets new weapons but they are balanced into the game to not become the new Meta.
I like how they handled it with clockwork City. Transmu System was part of the Base game Update . Why not juwelry crafting?
Anyway, you guys know my point of view and sadly there isnt any official definition of p2w to end this discussion.
Now then WOW drop an new expansion level cap increases and all dungeons and raids moves to the next expansion.
You can not access this without the expansion, nobody outside people leveling is doing the old content.
yes many guilds run old raids for new players or players who did not do them then they was hard.
Difference between old and new is over two time dps and migration, so you can not even touch quests in the new expansion, in overland pvp some scrub in questing gear will wipe you in bis pvp gear as he and gear is 10 level higher.
This has been standard since before wow burning crusade.
I assume Everquest and ulitma online did much of the same. So yes you was probably not old enough to play the game then this was standard.
I didnt played WoW cause i simply dont like the combat. Its boring for me and the overall style of the game with muskets and stuff isnt what i am looking for.
So before you assume i wasnt old enough to play it, maybe ask me why i didnt played it. Mister wise master above all.
The point was that when the gold standard for all MMOs was established... back on the late 90's. You were probably to young and don't realize this is how MMO's make their money to keep going. With out content that you pay for, the game dies.
But this new content doesnt need to give player an advantage about players who didnt bought it.
Sure, there needs to be new content for the health of the game but it is actually possible to make new content wich is balanced with the vanilla content.
I said more then enough that this is my personal opinion. If you want to prove me wrong give me facts why giving players who buy more then the basegame better better stat wise then compared to vanilla .
An facts, not : "WoW did it, so its fine" or some stupid reaction gifs.
you
ignore.
the facts
the fact is - it is standard for MMO's to introduce new content that needs to be paid for and skill lines, etc that are exclusive to that content.
why is it not pay to win? because contrary to your unshakable belief that robust vs healthy jewelry makes THAT much of a difference? it. does. NOT. can you kill people in pvp very effectively with healthy jewelry? yes. can you do any and all pve (that you can acess)? yes. can you put out competitive numbers? absolutely.
ergo. NOT pay to win. pay to win is when answer to all of the questions above? is NO.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***1 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2w
Still i can transmute without buying cwc.
I can farm vouchers, buy from guildstore or a Friend Guild member got it in his House. No real life money needed. Not for juwelry crafting. I already stated that you still can buy or get crafted juwelry without summerset but my main point is, that i cant transmute it without summerset. So i am forced into crafted sets to make use of the new traits that came with Summerset. And dropped sets are mostly superior to crafted ones.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.
you cannot buy transmute station without CWC and you cannot research traits to transmute to without summerset
still not pay to win.
pay to acess, sure, but not pay to win.
here's what pay to win is. having to buy cash shop items oh being unable to progress because mobs hit too hard, and you don't hit hard enough. best gear ONLY being available from cash shop and you buy it and are immediately more powerful, significantly so without having to do anything else.
being unable to craft anything sucessfuly past a certain point unless you buy cash shop items. to explain what I mean... imagine if upgrading gear or weapons in ESO is 75% sucess rate... unless you buy cash shop item and it is THE ONLY way to reach 100% sucess rate. and the further you upgrade, the lower sucess rate is. imagine if your chance to gold jewelry or weapons can only hit 50% unless you buy cash shop item.
THAT is pay to win.
So, i cant buy transmu station with craft vouchers? Or from a Guild store?
I didnt know, i never tried.
Okay then by your logic lets make it not p2w. Put the item in an area wich you can only access by buying a certain DLC and the item needs to be farmed and is bind on pickup. Problem solved, no p2w anymore cause it cant be bought directly in cash shop. EZ.
which is exactly how it works with dropped items. and since you only need to have base game to buy overland or crafted items from other players? no point in making them BoP, cause selling to other players via in game gold is NOT pay to win. the fact that you can acess transmute station without having to buy the DLC provided a friend or guildie gives you acess? is actualy further argument that its NOT pay to win either.
heck, that you can buy crafting stations in cash shop is not pay to win either as they are actualy cheaper to buy with in game gold.
@Linaleah
you are unfortunately correct.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***1 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2w
Still i can transmute without buying cwc.
I can farm vouchers, buy from guildstore or a Friend Guild member got it in his House. No real life money needed. Not for juwelry crafting. I already stated that you still can buy or get crafted juwelry without summerset but my main point is, that i cant transmute it without summerset. So i am forced into crafted sets to make use of the new traits that came with Summerset. And dropped sets are mostly superior to crafted ones.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.
you cannot buy transmute station without CWC and you cannot research traits to transmute to without summerset
still not pay to win.
pay to acess, sure, but not pay to win.
here's what pay to win is. having to buy cash shop items oh being unable to progress because mobs hit too hard, and you don't hit hard enough. best gear ONLY being available from cash shop and you buy it and are immediately more powerful, significantly so without having to do anything else.
being unable to craft anything sucessfuly past a certain point unless you buy cash shop items. to explain what I mean... imagine if upgrading gear or weapons in ESO is 75% sucess rate... unless you buy cash shop item and it is THE ONLY way to reach 100% sucess rate. and the further you upgrade, the lower sucess rate is. imagine if your chance to gold jewelry or weapons can only hit 50% unless you buy cash shop item.
THAT is pay to win.
So, i cant buy transmu station with craft vouchers? Or from a Guild store?
I didnt know, i never tried.
Okay then by your logic lets make it not p2w. Put the item in an area wich you can only access by buying a certain DLC and the item needs to be farmed and is bind on pickup. Problem solved, no p2w anymore cause it cant be bought directly in cash shop. EZ.
which is exactly how it works with dropped items. and since you only need to have base game to buy overland or crafted items from other players? no point in making them BoP, cause selling to other players via in game gold is NOT pay to win. the fact that you can acess transmute station without having to buy the DLC provided a friend or guildie gives you acess? is actualy further argument that its NOT pay to win either.
heck, that you can buy crafting stations in cash shop is not pay to win either as they are actualy cheaper to buy with in game gold.
Can i transmute my healthy juwelry into robust/arcane/triune/infused or any other trait without owning summerset?
No.
Is robust/arcane/infused juwelry better then healthy for dps?
Yes.
That all i Need for myself to say in my personal opinion that i see this as an p2w element.
WOW is seen as the gold standard for MMO, the next two are Final fantasy and ESO. All but ESO require sub.For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
This has nothing to do with holy ZOS or fanboys^^ You assume that whatever needs cash spent and CAN give you and advantage in a fight is p2w. That seems to be your defintion of p2w. But as already numerously stated, that would mean almost every game ever created that brought new content out and had you pay for it is p2w. Sure you can see it as that, but then the term doesn't mean much anymore.
Think about it this way. The usual MMO game way was to bring out expansions, which you had to buy, or you were basically locked from the game. That is pay2play, not pay2win. ESO has basically this, BUT with the exception that you are not locked from content that you already payed for. Imagine, if those new expansions and DLCs did NOT have any interesting combat options whatsoever. Who would buy those? The game needs to be financed, after all.
tl;dr: Yes, there is a lot of content in ESO you need to buy to have access to, and which can give you an advantage. But if this is your only criteria for p2w, then every other game is p2w aswell that even remotely tries to charge you on an update per update basis. And many others, me included, have other criteria for p2w in addition.
I didnt stated additional content or any kind of dlc is automaticly p2w.
It needs to be balanced. I dont play another MMO so i can only compare to a few games. For example Battlefield. It also gets new weapons but they are balanced into the game to not become the new Meta.
I like how they handled it with clockwork City. Transmu System was part of the Base game Update . Why not juwelry crafting?
Anyway, you guys know my point of view and sadly there isnt any official definition of p2w to end this discussion.
Now then WOW drop an new expansion level cap increases and all dungeons and raids moves to the next expansion.
You can not access this without the expansion, nobody outside people leveling is doing the old content.
yes many guilds run old raids for new players or players who did not do them then they was hard.
Difference between old and new is over two time dps and migration, so you can not even touch quests in the new expansion, in overland pvp some scrub in questing gear will wipe you in bis pvp gear as he and gear is 10 level higher.
This has been standard since before wow burning crusade.
I assume Everquest and ulitma online did much of the same. So yes you was probably not old enough to play the game then this was standard.
I didnt played WoW cause i simply dont like the combat. Its boring for me and the overall style of the game with muskets and stuff isnt what i am looking for.
So before you assume i wasnt old enough to play it, maybe ask me why i didnt played it. Mister wise master above all.
The point was that when the gold standard for all MMOs was established... back on the late 90's. You were probably to young and don't realize this is how MMO's make their money to keep going. With out content that you pay for, the game dies.
But this new content doesnt need to give player an advantage about players who didnt bought it.
Sure, there needs to be new content for the health of the game but it is actually possible to make new content wich is balanced with the vanilla content.
I said more then enough that this is my personal opinion. If you want to prove me wrong give me facts why giving players who buy more then the basegame better better stat wise then compared to vanilla .
An facts, not : "WoW did it, so its fine" or some stupid reaction gifs.
you
ignore.
the facts
the fact is - it is standard for MMO's to introduce new content that needs to be paid for and skill lines, etc that are exclusive to that content.
why is it not pay to win? because contrary to your unshakable belief that robust vs healthy jewelry makes THAT much of a difference? it. does. NOT. can you kill people in pvp very effectively with healthy jewelry? yes. can you do any and all pve (that you can acess)? yes. can you put out competitive numbers? absolutely.
ergo. NOT pay to win. pay to win is when answer to all of the questions above? is NO.
I never said DLC or new content in general is automaticly p2w.
I said that new content wich can only be aquired by paying for it and gives the player an advantage over players who didnt bought it is in my opinion p2w.0 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2w
Still i can transmute without buying cwc.
I can farm vouchers, buy from guildstore or a Friend Guild member got it in his House. No real life money needed. Not for juwelry crafting. I already stated that you still can buy or get crafted juwelry without summerset but my main point is, that i cant transmute it without summerset. So i am forced into crafted sets to make use of the new traits that came with Summerset. And dropped sets are mostly superior to crafted ones.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.
Cool thing about opinions, they're allowed to be wrong.For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2w
Still i can transmute without buying cwc.
I can farm vouchers, buy from guildstore or a Friend Guild member got it in his House. No real life money needed. Not for juwelry crafting. I already stated that you still can buy or get crafted juwelry without summerset but my main point is, that i cant transmute it without summerset. So i am forced into crafted sets to make use of the new traits that came with Summerset. And dropped sets are mostly superior to crafted ones.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.
you cannot buy transmute station without CWC and you cannot research traits to transmute to without summerset
still not pay to win.
pay to acess, sure, but not pay to win.
here's what pay to win is. having to buy cash shop items oh being unable to progress because mobs hit too hard, and you don't hit hard enough. best gear ONLY being available from cash shop and you buy it and are immediately more powerful, significantly so without having to do anything else.
being unable to craft anything sucessfuly past a certain point unless you buy cash shop items. to explain what I mean... imagine if upgrading gear or weapons in ESO is 75% sucess rate... unless you buy cash shop item and it is THE ONLY way to reach 100% sucess rate. and the further you upgrade, the lower sucess rate is. imagine if your chance to gold jewelry or weapons can only hit 50% unless you buy cash shop item.
THAT is pay to win.
So, i cant buy transmu station with craft vouchers? Or from a Guild store?
I didnt know, i never tried.
Okay then by your logic lets make it not p2w. Put the item in an area wich you can only access by buying a certain DLC and the item needs to be farmed and is bind on pickup. Problem solved, no p2w anymore cause it cant be bought directly in cash shop. EZ.
which is exactly how it works with dropped items. and since you only need to have base game to buy overland or crafted items from other players? no point in making them BoP, cause selling to other players via in game gold is NOT pay to win. the fact that you can acess transmute station without having to buy the DLC provided a friend or guildie gives you acess? is actualy further argument that its NOT pay to win either.
heck, that you can buy crafting stations in cash shop is not pay to win either as they are actualy cheaper to buy with in game gold.
Can i transmute my healthy juwelry into robust/arcane/triune/infused or any other trait without owning summerset?
No.
Is robust/arcane/infused juwelry better then healthy for dps?
Yes.
That all i Need for myself to say in my personal opinion that i see this as an p2w element.
WOW is seen as the gold standard for MMO, the next two are Final fantasy and ESO. All but ESO require sub.For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
This has nothing to do with holy ZOS or fanboys^^ You assume that whatever needs cash spent and CAN give you and advantage in a fight is p2w. That seems to be your defintion of p2w. But as already numerously stated, that would mean almost every game ever created that brought new content out and had you pay for it is p2w. Sure you can see it as that, but then the term doesn't mean much anymore.
Think about it this way. The usual MMO game way was to bring out expansions, which you had to buy, or you were basically locked from the game. That is pay2play, not pay2win. ESO has basically this, BUT with the exception that you are not locked from content that you already payed for. Imagine, if those new expansions and DLCs did NOT have any interesting combat options whatsoever. Who would buy those? The game needs to be financed, after all.
tl;dr: Yes, there is a lot of content in ESO you need to buy to have access to, and which can give you an advantage. But if this is your only criteria for p2w, then every other game is p2w aswell that even remotely tries to charge you on an update per update basis. And many others, me included, have other criteria for p2w in addition.
I didnt stated additional content or any kind of dlc is automaticly p2w.
It needs to be balanced. I dont play another MMO so i can only compare to a few games. For example Battlefield. It also gets new weapons but they are balanced into the game to not become the new Meta.
I like how they handled it with clockwork City. Transmu System was part of the Base game Update . Why not juwelry crafting?
Anyway, you guys know my point of view and sadly there isnt any official definition of p2w to end this discussion.
Now then WOW drop an new expansion level cap increases and all dungeons and raids moves to the next expansion.
You can not access this without the expansion, nobody outside people leveling is doing the old content.
yes many guilds run old raids for new players or players who did not do them then they was hard.
Difference between old and new is over two time dps and migration, so you can not even touch quests in the new expansion, in overland pvp some scrub in questing gear will wipe you in bis pvp gear as he and gear is 10 level higher.
This has been standard since before wow burning crusade.
I assume Everquest and ulitma online did much of the same. So yes you was probably not old enough to play the game then this was standard.
I didnt played WoW cause i simply dont like the combat. Its boring for me and the overall style of the game with muskets and stuff isnt what i am looking for.
So before you assume i wasnt old enough to play it, maybe ask me why i didnt played it. Mister wise master above all.
The point was that when the gold standard for all MMOs was established... back on the late 90's. You were probably to young and don't realize this is how MMO's make their money to keep going. With out content that you pay for, the game dies.
But this new content doesnt need to give player an advantage about players who didnt bought it.
Sure, there needs to be new content for the health of the game but it is actually possible to make new content wich is balanced with the vanilla content.
I said more then enough that this is my personal opinion. If you want to prove me wrong give me facts why giving players who buy more then the basegame better better stat wise then compared to vanilla .
An facts, not : "WoW did it, so its fine" or some stupid reaction gifs.
you
ignore.
the facts
the fact is - it is standard for MMO's to introduce new content that needs to be paid for and skill lines, etc that are exclusive to that content.
why is it not pay to win? because contrary to your unshakable belief that robust vs healthy jewelry makes THAT much of a difference? it. does. NOT. can you kill people in pvp very effectively with healthy jewelry? yes. can you do any and all pve (that you can acess)? yes. can you put out competitive numbers? absolutely.
ergo. NOT pay to win. pay to win is when answer to all of the questions above? is NO.
I never said DLC or new content in general is automaticly p2w.
I said that new content wich can only be aquired by paying for it and gives the player an advantage over players who didnt bought it is in my opinion p2w.
There is nothing in this game that definitively and consistently gives such an increase in power over other options that it can remotely be considered P2W.
There is no "I win" gear for PvP. There is no "I win" gear for PvE. There is no piece of content within this game that cannot be beaten prior to having a particular piece of gear.
Even if there was, it's still not P2W, because you still have to acquire the item through the normal means. There is no gear, no weapon, no glyph, no potion, no poison you can buy that gives you any advantage over the same acquired through normal in game means.
Not. P. 2. W.
(And regarding inability to learn all jewelry traits during an inevitable Summerset-free-play, if you're smart, you can 9 trait in 18 hours without a single research scroll.)
You're welcome to keep your opinion, but quit arguing about something you clearly don't grasp, nor have anything other than opinion to back up.
Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS2 -
GarnetFire17✭✭✭✭Both 1 and 2 are correct. However, just because he game has some small p2w things in it like xp and research scrolls that speed up the grinding process a bit when you get xp scrolls from just logging in the game or buy xp potions for pretty cheap from guildstores or other easy means without paying real money or a lot of gold., that isn't enough to warrant the label "Pay to win" as game overall. The only thing big enough for ESO to possible earn that label is the warden thing in my opinion and that is only so long as the warden is a strong class, and right now it is.0
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Vhozek✭✭✭✭✭
✭ESO is not pay to win if that was even the debate to begin with. It's P4B, pay for bugs.𝗡𝗼𝘁 𝘀𝗼𝗿𝗿𝘆, 𝗺𝗼𝗱𝘀. 𝗙𝗿𝗲𝗲 𝗕𝗶𝗿𝗱 𝘄𝗮𝘀 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝘆𝗶𝗻𝗴.0 -
Oberstein✭✭✭Pay to win is pay to win.History, like a human being, is thirsty when it wakes from its slumber…History wants to drink up an enormous amount of blood. And even if history has tired of drinking blood, that’s only in regards to the amount. But what about quality? The larger the sacrifice is, the more delighted the cruel gods will be.0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »Pay to win is when you can get something that is ONLY available through an additional purchase that gives a unique advantage over others. If the same thing can be earned in-game, then it is not pay to win.
For example, if ESO were to release a new gear set that is obviously OP and unobtainable through any means other than the Crown Store, that would be pay to win.
Cosmetics, shortcuts, convenience items, and consumables ARE NOT pay to win.[...]
Mount speed is extremely important in PvP.
vMA weapons, especially bow and destruction staves are extremely important in PvE.
Jewelry crafting also very important to some degree.
You can't buy direct enhancements through the shop, but you have to invest more than the base game to be properly equipped. ESO isn't really P2W but it isn't the opposite either.
Edited by Facefister on January 13, 2019 7:14PM0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »Pay to win is when you can get something that is ONLY available through an additional purchase that gives a unique advantage over others. If the same thing can be earned in-game, then it is not pay to win.
For example, if ESO were to release a new gear set that is obviously OP and unobtainable through any means other than the Crown Store, that would be pay to win.
Cosmetics, shortcuts, convenience items, and consumables ARE NOT pay to win.[...]
Mount speed is extremely important in PvP.
vMA weapons, especially bow and destruction staves are extremely important in PvE.
Jewelry crafting also very important to some degree.
You can't buy direct enhancements through the shop, but you have to invest more than the base game to be properly equipped. ESO isn't really P2W but it isn't the opposite either.
you are not guaranteed vma weapons just because you have acess to vma.. it would be pay to win if you had those weapons as part of the bundle, but they are not. you have to be able to get through vma in a first place and then you have to farm it to get them.
mount speed is borderline, but still not entirely it. can't even mount up if you are carrying scroll. sieges are done on foot. battlegrounds are definitely done on foot. its just traveling between castles that requires mount speed.
jewelry crafting is somewhat important but its not super crucial. its not going to be a difference between life and death. its marginal. moreover - your purchase of summerset doesn't come with jewelry and fully maxed out skill line included. you have to research it, you have to level it, you have to craft it.
you buy acess to content, but you do not, cannot buy upgrades in ESO. contrast that to Neverwinter, which I'm ringing up in part because its a good example and in part becasue I'm currently playing it for various reasons.
you can get actual upgrade materials in a shop, you can buy modifications for your mount, for your gear - directly from the shop. you can buy crafting materials. in that game you play with companions (they fight with you but even more importantly - they give extra stats to your character) and best ones? are cash shopped. technically, most of these things are tradable on the auction house and so technically you can buy them with in game currency. but it doesn't change the fact that their origin is cash shop. not merely fashion outfits or consumables that are worse then what you can craft yourself. actualy items that significantly improve your performance and some of them, can NOT be acquired through gameplay alone. mounts also buff your character and some of the better buffs? cash shop.
THAT is pay to win.Edited by Linaleah on January 13, 2019 7:30PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Linaleah
Having access by paying > not having access entirely. It doesn't matter if it takes 2 runs or 200 to get your bow, it doesn't matter if it takes 2 days or 2 weeks to max out jewelry. You will get what you want eventually, but not if you don't buy the DLCs. As you're stating it yourself, it has an impact to some degree thus proving my point.
Calling ESO a p2w game is wrong.
Calling ESO not a p2w game is wrong.
ESO is something in between.0 -
heaven13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »@Linaleah
Having access by paying > not having access entirely. It doesn't matter if it takes 2 runs or 200 to get your bow, it doesn't matter if it takes 2 days or 2 weeks to max out jewelry. You will get what you want eventually, but not if you don't buy the DLCs. As you're stating it yourself, it has an impact to some degree thus proving my point.
Calling ESO a p2w game is wrong.
Calling ESO not a p2w game is wrong.
ESO is something in between.
But vMA weapons, different traits on jewelry, etc don't give you a CLEAR and DEFINITE advantage. You still have to have the skill to use them and not everyone is going to benefit from the difference they come with. Just obtaining them doesn't guarantee a win/clear so it's still not p2w.PC/NAMountain God | Leave No Bone Unbroken | Apex Predator | Pure Lunacy | Depths Defier | No Rest for the Wicked | In Defiance of DeathMeet my characters :
Defanged the Devourer | Nature's Wrath | Relentless Raider | True Genius | Bane of Thorns | Subterranean Smasher | Ardent Bibliophile
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vDSA | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+2 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA | vRGIT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THE SAME NOW, THANKS ZOS1 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Facefister wrote: »@Linaleah
Having access by paying > not having access entirely. It doesn't matter if it takes 2 runs or 200 to get your bow, it doesn't matter if it takes 2 days or 2 weeks to max out jewelry. You will get what you want eventually, but not if you don't buy the DLCs. As you're stating it yourself, it has an impact to some degree thus proving my point.
Calling ESO a p2w game is wrong.
Calling ESO not a p2w game is wrong.
ESO is something in between.
But vMA weapons, different traits on jewelry, etc don't give you a CLEAR and DEFINITE advantage. You still have to have the skill to use them and not everyone is going to benefit from the difference they come with. Just obtaining them doesn't guarantee a win/clear so it's still not p2w.
And here comes the CWC DLC.0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »@Linaleah
Having access by paying > not having access entirely. It doesn't matter if it takes 2 runs or 200 to get your bow, it doesn't matter if it takes 2 days or 2 weeks to max out jewelry. You will get what you want eventually, but not if you don't buy the DLCs. As you're stating it yourself, it has an impact to some degree thus proving my point.
Calling ESO a p2w game is wrong.
Calling ESO not a p2w game is wrong.
ESO is something in between.
But vMA weapons, different traits on jewelry, etc don't give you a CLEAR and DEFINITE advantage. You still have to have the skill to use them and not everyone is going to benefit from the difference they come with. Just obtaining them doesn't guarantee a win/clear so it's still not p2w.
I'm going to quote this for emphasis. aside from the whole - you still have to get these things through gameplay and btw, speaking of skill.. I don't have the skill for VMA. no amount of money spent on ESO or its DLC's will get me that skill. no amount of having acess to wrothgar will get me those weapons. becasue they are NOT sold directly.
the game is either pay to win, or its not, there is no in between. its like... being a little be pregnant, there is no such thing, you are, or you are not. and ESO is NOT pay to win by any reasonable definition.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You're still adamant on your black&white thinking and now you compare it to something extremely different thing. You're not worth my time. I am going to block you so I don't waste my time again.0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I mean I'm blocked.. apparently so it may be useless to reply, but some things ARE binary. they are or they are not. pay to win is one such thing. but whatever.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭I mean I'm blocked.. apparently so it may be useless to reply, but some things ARE binary. they are or they are not. pay to win is one such thing. but whatever.
By your definition of p2w or not p2w i give you an example and you tell me if i got your definition right okay?
Lets say, there is an item in cash shop wich increases your damage by 1% and is only in cash shop, no way to get it in game. You Need to spend money on it.
Thats p2w right? Ofc, you wont automaticly win by this but you will have 1% more damage cause you bought it. Am i right?0 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Most people just go by the fact that if you can pay real $ to get ahead in game be it either pvp or research etc anything is p2w to alot of people.0