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What is P2W (pay to win)
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p_tsakirisb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
Then change to gear sets that come with Robust. Ask your friend to make you a set jewelry of a different set and upgrade them, with traits of your choice (and there are better crafted sets, or robust jewelry sets than those you used).
And I would like to know what sort of "meta" build is using Fury & 7th Legion.
Because is not "meta" Tank build, nor "meta" DPS build.
Edited by p_tsakirisb16_ESO on January 3, 2019 10:09AM0 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
Then change to gear sets that come with Robust. Ask your friend to make you a set jewelry of a different set and upgrade them, with traits of your choice (and there are better crafted sets, or robust jewelry sets than those you used).
And I would like to know what sort of "meta" build is using Fury & 7th Legion.
Because is not "meta" Tank build, nor "meta" DPS build.
Fury and 7th are one of the sets that give you the highest weapon damage atm and the proc conditions benefits stamdk cause they are a class wich can take a lot of hits and get a reliable fury and 7th uptime.
Wich crafted sets are good for stamdk? Shackle is decent but more of a sustain set then a damage set. Hundings is trash compared to fury or 7th. Veiled is also a heavy set.....
These are really good sets for stamdk besides the normal duel cheese setups.0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
Edited by Linaleah on January 3, 2019 11:06AMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
I've plaid mmorpgs for over 18 years now. And can honestly say this isn't p2w where pvp is concerned......... paying extra money for eso plus was mainly for the crafting bag for me lol.... I can't imagine not having all that space now pah hahaha0
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Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.0 -
Namarkas✭✭✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
This has nothing to do with holy ZOS or fanboys^^ You assume that whatever needs cash spent and CAN give you and advantage in a fight is p2w. That seems to be your defintion of p2w. But as already numerously stated, that would mean almost every game ever created that brought new content out and had you pay for it is p2w. Sure you can see it as that, but then the term doesn't mean much anymore.
Think about it this way. The usual MMO game way was to bring out expansions, which you had to buy, or you were basically locked from the game. That is pay2play, not pay2win. ESO has basically this, BUT with the exception that you are not locked from content that you already payed for. Imagine, if those new expansions and DLCs did NOT have any interesting combat options whatsoever. Who would buy those? The game needs to be financed, after all.
tl;dr: Yes, there is a lot of content in ESO you need to buy to have access to, and which can give you an advantage. But if this is your only criteria for p2w, then every other game is p2w aswell that even remotely tries to charge you on an update per update basis. And many others, me included, have other criteria for p2w in addition.Edited by Namarkas on January 3, 2019 11:43AM3 -
Dreyfron✭✭✭
The game needs to be financed, after all.
End of argument!
Edited by Dreyfron on January 3, 2019 11:54AM0 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
This has nothing to do with holy ZOS or fanboys^^ You assume that whatever needs cash spent and CAN give you and advantage in a fight is p2w. That seems to be your defintion of p2w. But as already numerously stated, that would mean almost every game ever created that brought new content out and had you pay for it is p2w. Sure you can see it as that, but then the term doesn't mean much anymore.
Think about it this way. The usual MMO game way was to bring out expansions, which you had to buy, or you were basically locked from the game. That is pay2play, not pay2win. ESO has basically this, BUT with the exception that you are not locked from content that you already payed for. Imagine, if those new expansions and DLCs did NOT have any interesting combat options whatsoever. Who would buy those? The game needs to be financed, after all.
tl;dr: Yes, there is a lot of content in ESO you need to buy to have access to, and which can give you an advantage. But if this is your only criteria for p2w, then every other game is p2w aswell that even remotely tries to charge you on an update per update basis. And many others, me included, have other criteria for p2w in addition.
I didnt stated additional content or any kind of dlc is automaticly p2w.
It needs to be balanced. I dont play another MMO so i can only compare to a few games. For example Battlefield. It also gets new weapons but they are balanced into the game to not become the new Meta.
I like how they handled it with clockwork City. Transmu System was part of the Base game Update . Why not juwelry crafting?
Anyway, you guys know my point of view and sadly there isnt any official definition of p2w to end this discussion.0 -
Pops_ND_Irish✭✭✭✭✭DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »This stupid P2W debate again... ESO is NOT P2W, just get over it.
Finally, someone with some common sense !0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2wEdited by Linaleah on January 3, 2019 2:49PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
Edited by Merlin13KAGL on January 3, 2019 2:47PMJust because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS1 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2w
Still i can transmute without buying cwc.
I can farm vouchers, buy from guildstore or a Friend Guild member got it in his House. No real life money needed. Not for juwelry crafting. I already stated that you still can buy or get crafted juwelry without summerset but my main point is, that i cant transmute it without summerset. So i am forced into crafted sets to make use of the new traits that came with Summerset. And dropped sets are mostly superior to crafted ones.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.0 -
Lifemocker✭✭✭So new dlc shouldn’t bring new trials, sets, abilities or anything to the game? New zones can then be considered p2w because there might be better farming spots for materials? How do you think the game will stay interesting that way?
For me p2w is when you buy something directly with real money, that cannot be obtained in other ways in game. So eso is not pay to win.2 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
There'll be freeplay of Summerset given enough time, just like there has been with Morrowind.HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.
Trait still doesn't guarantee a win, which makes it still not P2W.
Your main point still falls short.
Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS3 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
But there havent been yet. Or? Even if you get 1 week to try out summerset its not enough time to research all traits except you spend additional money on crown research scrolls.
If you really want to take p2w like: "buy this, 100% always win." Then no game is p2w by this.
Black desert got called p2w cause there was an item in cash shop wich granted an upgrade on your weapon without loosing durability. Or an costume wich was hiding your name in pvp.
Does this makes you win in this game? No. Still it got quite a huge ***.
ZOS gives player the option to make their gear superior to other players without summerset. Ofc this doesnt grant you 100k dps by light attacks. Its still an advantage that players get when they buy more then the vanilla game.
And in my opinion this is p2w even tho, the name is quite misleading.0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2w
Still i can transmute without buying cwc.
I can farm vouchers, buy from guildstore or a Friend Guild member got it in his House. No real life money needed. Not for juwelry crafting. I already stated that you still can buy or get crafted juwelry without summerset but my main point is, that i cant transmute it without summerset. So i am forced into crafted sets to make use of the new traits that came with Summerset. And dropped sets are mostly superior to crafted ones.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.
you cannot buy transmute station without CWC and you cannot research traits to transmute to without summerset
still not pay to win.
pay to acess, sure, but not pay to win.
here's what pay to win is. having to buy cash shop items oh being unable to progress because mobs hit too hard, and you don't hit hard enough. best gear ONLY being available from cash shop and you buy it and are immediately more powerful, significantly so without having to do anything else.
being unable to craft anything sucessfuly past a certain point unless you buy cash shop items. to explain what I mean... imagine if upgrading gear or weapons in ESO is 75% sucess rate... unless you buy cash shop item and it is THE ONLY way to reach 100% sucess rate. and the further you upgrade, the lower sucess rate is. imagine if your chance to gold jewelry or weapons can only hit 50% unless you buy cash shop item.
THAT is pay to win.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***3 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2w
Still i can transmute without buying cwc.
I can farm vouchers, buy from guildstore or a Friend Guild member got it in his House. No real life money needed. Not for juwelry crafting. I already stated that you still can buy or get crafted juwelry without summerset but my main point is, that i cant transmute it without summerset. So i am forced into crafted sets to make use of the new traits that came with Summerset. And dropped sets are mostly superior to crafted ones.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.
you cannot buy transmute station without CWC and you cannot research traits to transmute to without summerset
still not pay to win.
pay to acess, sure, but not pay to win.
here's what pay to win is. having to buy cash shop items oh being unable to progress because mobs hit too hard, and you don't hit hard enough. best gear ONLY being available from cash shop and you buy it and are immediately more powerful, significantly so without having to do anything else.
being unable to craft anything sucessfuly past a certain point unless you buy cash shop items. to explain what I mean... imagine if upgrading gear or weapons in ESO is 75% sucess rate... unless you buy cash shop item and it is THE ONLY way to reach 100% sucess rate. and the further you upgrade, the lower sucess rate is. imagine if your chance to gold jewelry or weapons can only hit 50% unless you buy cash shop item.
THAT is pay to win.
So, i cant buy transmu station with craft vouchers? Or from a Guild store?
I didnt know, i never tried.
Okay then by your logic lets make it not p2w. Put the item in an area wich you can only access by buying a certain DLC and the item needs to be farmed and is bind on pickup. Problem solved, no p2w anymore cause it cant be bought directly in cash shop. EZ.0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2w
Still i can transmute without buying cwc.
I can farm vouchers, buy from guildstore or a Friend Guild member got it in his House. No real life money needed. Not for juwelry crafting. I already stated that you still can buy or get crafted juwelry without summerset but my main point is, that i cant transmute it without summerset. So i am forced into crafted sets to make use of the new traits that came with Summerset. And dropped sets are mostly superior to crafted ones.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.
you cannot buy transmute station without CWC and you cannot research traits to transmute to without summerset
still not pay to win.
pay to acess, sure, but not pay to win.
here's what pay to win is. having to buy cash shop items oh being unable to progress because mobs hit too hard, and you don't hit hard enough. best gear ONLY being available from cash shop and you buy it and are immediately more powerful, significantly so without having to do anything else.
being unable to craft anything sucessfuly past a certain point unless you buy cash shop items. to explain what I mean... imagine if upgrading gear or weapons in ESO is 75% sucess rate... unless you buy cash shop item and it is THE ONLY way to reach 100% sucess rate. and the further you upgrade, the lower sucess rate is. imagine if your chance to gold jewelry or weapons can only hit 50% unless you buy cash shop item.
THAT is pay to win.
So, i cant buy transmu station with craft vouchers? Or from a Guild store?
I didnt know, i never tried.
Okay then by your logic lets make it not p2w. Put the item in an area wich you can only access by buying a certain DLC and the item needs to be farmed and is bind on pickup. Problem solved, no p2w anymore cause it cant be bought directly in cash shop. EZ.
which is exactly how it works with dropped items. and since you only need to have base game to buy overland or crafted items from other players? no point in making them BoP, cause selling to other players via in game gold is NOT pay to win. the fact that you can acess transmute station without having to buy the DLC provided a friend or guildie gives you acess? is actualy further argument that its NOT pay to win either.
heck, that you can buy crafting stations in cash shop is not pay to win either as they are actualy cheaper to buy with in game gold.Edited by Linaleah on January 3, 2019 5:15PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
MilwaukeeScott✭✭✭✭✭P2W is having an in game advantage that can only be achieved by purchasing it with real money,PS4NA
All I see is hate and rage from people who don't understand how to.....1 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2w
Still i can transmute without buying cwc.
I can farm vouchers, buy from guildstore or a Friend Guild member got it in his House. No real life money needed. Not for juwelry crafting. I already stated that you still can buy or get crafted juwelry without summerset but my main point is, that i cant transmute it without summerset. So i am forced into crafted sets to make use of the new traits that came with Summerset. And dropped sets are mostly superior to crafted ones.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.
you cannot buy transmute station without CWC and you cannot research traits to transmute to without summerset
still not pay to win.
pay to acess, sure, but not pay to win.
here's what pay to win is. having to buy cash shop items oh being unable to progress because mobs hit too hard, and you don't hit hard enough. best gear ONLY being available from cash shop and you buy it and are immediately more powerful, significantly so without having to do anything else.
being unable to craft anything sucessfuly past a certain point unless you buy cash shop items. to explain what I mean... imagine if upgrading gear or weapons in ESO is 75% sucess rate... unless you buy cash shop item and it is THE ONLY way to reach 100% sucess rate. and the further you upgrade, the lower sucess rate is. imagine if your chance to gold jewelry or weapons can only hit 50% unless you buy cash shop item.
THAT is pay to win.
So, i cant buy transmu station with craft vouchers? Or from a Guild store?
I didnt know, i never tried.
Okay then by your logic lets make it not p2w. Put the item in an area wich you can only access by buying a certain DLC and the item needs to be farmed and is bind on pickup. Problem solved, no p2w anymore cause it cant be bought directly in cash shop. EZ.
which is exactly how it works with dropped items. and since you only need to have base game to buy overland or crafted items from other players? no point in making them BoP, cause selling to other players via in game gold is NOT pay to win. the fact that you can acess transmute station without having to buy the DLC provided a friend or guildie gives you acess? is actualy further argument that its NOT pay to win either.
heck, that you can buy crafting stations in cash shop is not pay to win either as they are actualy cheaper to buy with in game gold.
@Linaleah
Edited by Xundiin on January 3, 2019 10:54PM#SavePlayer12 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
WOW is seen as the gold standard for MMO, the next two are Final fantasy and ESO. All but ESO require sub.For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
This has nothing to do with holy ZOS or fanboys^^ You assume that whatever needs cash spent and CAN give you and advantage in a fight is p2w. That seems to be your defintion of p2w. But as already numerously stated, that would mean almost every game ever created that brought new content out and had you pay for it is p2w. Sure you can see it as that, but then the term doesn't mean much anymore.
Think about it this way. The usual MMO game way was to bring out expansions, which you had to buy, or you were basically locked from the game. That is pay2play, not pay2win. ESO has basically this, BUT with the exception that you are not locked from content that you already payed for. Imagine, if those new expansions and DLCs did NOT have any interesting combat options whatsoever. Who would buy those? The game needs to be financed, after all.
tl;dr: Yes, there is a lot of content in ESO you need to buy to have access to, and which can give you an advantage. But if this is your only criteria for p2w, then every other game is p2w aswell that even remotely tries to charge you on an update per update basis. And many others, me included, have other criteria for p2w in addition.
I didnt stated additional content or any kind of dlc is automaticly p2w.
It needs to be balanced. I dont play another MMO so i can only compare to a few games. For example Battlefield. It also gets new weapons but they are balanced into the game to not become the new Meta.
I like how they handled it with clockwork City. Transmu System was part of the Base game Update . Why not juwelry crafting?
Anyway, you guys know my point of view and sadly there isnt any official definition of p2w to end this discussion.
Now then WOW drop an new expansion level cap increases and all dungeons and raids moves to the next expansion.
You can not access this without the expansion, nobody outside people leveling is doing the old content.
yes many guilds run old raids for new players or players who did not do them then they was hard.
Difference between old and new is over two time dps and migration, so you can not even touch quests in the new expansion, in overland pvp some scrub in questing gear will wipe you in bis pvp gear as he and gear is 10 level higher.
This has been standard since before wow burning crusade.
I assume Everquest and ulitma online did much of the same. So yes you was probably not old enough to play the game then this was standard.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2w
Still i can transmute without buying cwc.
I can farm vouchers, buy from guildstore or a Friend Guild member got it in his House. No real life money needed. Not for juwelry crafting. I already stated that you still can buy or get crafted juwelry without summerset but my main point is, that i cant transmute it without summerset. So i am forced into crafted sets to make use of the new traits that came with Summerset. And dropped sets are mostly superior to crafted ones.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.
you cannot buy transmute station without CWC and you cannot research traits to transmute to without summerset
still not pay to win.
pay to acess, sure, but not pay to win.
here's what pay to win is. having to buy cash shop items oh being unable to progress because mobs hit too hard, and you don't hit hard enough. best gear ONLY being available from cash shop and you buy it and are immediately more powerful, significantly so without having to do anything else.
being unable to craft anything sucessfuly past a certain point unless you buy cash shop items. to explain what I mean... imagine if upgrading gear or weapons in ESO is 75% sucess rate... unless you buy cash shop item and it is THE ONLY way to reach 100% sucess rate. and the further you upgrade, the lower sucess rate is. imagine if your chance to gold jewelry or weapons can only hit 50% unless you buy cash shop item.
THAT is pay to win.
So, i cant buy transmu station with craft vouchers? Or from a Guild store?
I didnt know, i never tried.
Okay then by your logic lets make it not p2w. Put the item in an area wich you can only access by buying a certain DLC and the item needs to be farmed and is bind on pickup. Problem solved, no p2w anymore cause it cant be bought directly in cash shop. EZ.
which is exactly how it works with dropped items. and since you only need to have base game to buy overland or crafted items from other players? no point in making them BoP, cause selling to other players via in game gold is NOT pay to win. the fact that you can acess transmute station without having to buy the DLC provided a friend or guildie gives you acess? is actualy further argument that its NOT pay to win either.
heck, that you can buy crafting stations in cash shop is not pay to win either as they are actualy cheaper to buy with in game gold.
Can i transmute my healthy juwelry into robust/arcane/triune/infused or any other trait without owning summerset?
No.
Is robust/arcane/infused juwelry better then healthy for dps?
Yes.
That all i Need for myself to say in my personal opinion that i see this as an p2w element.
WOW is seen as the gold standard for MMO, the next two are Final fantasy and ESO. All but ESO require sub.For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
This has nothing to do with holy ZOS or fanboys^^ You assume that whatever needs cash spent and CAN give you and advantage in a fight is p2w. That seems to be your defintion of p2w. But as already numerously stated, that would mean almost every game ever created that brought new content out and had you pay for it is p2w. Sure you can see it as that, but then the term doesn't mean much anymore.
Think about it this way. The usual MMO game way was to bring out expansions, which you had to buy, or you were basically locked from the game. That is pay2play, not pay2win. ESO has basically this, BUT with the exception that you are not locked from content that you already payed for. Imagine, if those new expansions and DLCs did NOT have any interesting combat options whatsoever. Who would buy those? The game needs to be financed, after all.
tl;dr: Yes, there is a lot of content in ESO you need to buy to have access to, and which can give you an advantage. But if this is your only criteria for p2w, then every other game is p2w aswell that even remotely tries to charge you on an update per update basis. And many others, me included, have other criteria for p2w in addition.
I didnt stated additional content or any kind of dlc is automaticly p2w.
It needs to be balanced. I dont play another MMO so i can only compare to a few games. For example Battlefield. It also gets new weapons but they are balanced into the game to not become the new Meta.
I like how they handled it with clockwork City. Transmu System was part of the Base game Update . Why not juwelry crafting?
Anyway, you guys know my point of view and sadly there isnt any official definition of p2w to end this discussion.
Now then WOW drop an new expansion level cap increases and all dungeons and raids moves to the next expansion.
You can not access this without the expansion, nobody outside people leveling is doing the old content.
yes many guilds run old raids for new players or players who did not do them then they was hard.
Difference between old and new is over two time dps and migration, so you can not even touch quests in the new expansion, in overland pvp some scrub in questing gear will wipe you in bis pvp gear as he and gear is 10 level higher.
This has been standard since before wow burning crusade.
I assume Everquest and ulitma online did much of the same. So yes you was probably not old enough to play the game then this was standard.
I didnt played WoW cause i simply dont like the combat. Its boring for me and the overall style of the game with muskets and stuff isnt what i am looking for.
So before you assume i wasnt old enough to play it, maybe ask me why i didnt played it. Mister wise master above all.0 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2w
Still i can transmute without buying cwc.
I can farm vouchers, buy from guildstore or a Friend Guild member got it in his House. No real life money needed. Not for juwelry crafting. I already stated that you still can buy or get crafted juwelry without summerset but my main point is, that i cant transmute it without summerset. So i am forced into crafted sets to make use of the new traits that came with Summerset. And dropped sets are mostly superior to crafted ones.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.
you cannot buy transmute station without CWC and you cannot research traits to transmute to without summerset
still not pay to win.
pay to acess, sure, but not pay to win.
here's what pay to win is. having to buy cash shop items oh being unable to progress because mobs hit too hard, and you don't hit hard enough. best gear ONLY being available from cash shop and you buy it and are immediately more powerful, significantly so without having to do anything else.
being unable to craft anything sucessfuly past a certain point unless you buy cash shop items. to explain what I mean... imagine if upgrading gear or weapons in ESO is 75% sucess rate... unless you buy cash shop item and it is THE ONLY way to reach 100% sucess rate. and the further you upgrade, the lower sucess rate is. imagine if your chance to gold jewelry or weapons can only hit 50% unless you buy cash shop item.
THAT is pay to win.
So, i cant buy transmu station with craft vouchers? Or from a Guild store?
I didnt know, i never tried.
Okay then by your logic lets make it not p2w. Put the item in an area wich you can only access by buying a certain DLC and the item needs to be farmed and is bind on pickup. Problem solved, no p2w anymore cause it cant be bought directly in cash shop. EZ.
which is exactly how it works with dropped items. and since you only need to have base game to buy overland or crafted items from other players? no point in making them BoP, cause selling to other players via in game gold is NOT pay to win. the fact that you can acess transmute station without having to buy the DLC provided a friend or guildie gives you acess? is actualy further argument that its NOT pay to win either.
heck, that you can buy crafting stations in cash shop is not pay to win either as they are actualy cheaper to buy with in game gold.
Can i transmute my healthy juwelry into robust/arcane/triune/infused or any other trait without owning summerset?
No.
Is robust/arcane/infused juwelry better then healthy for dps?
Yes.
That all i Need for myself to say in my personal opinion that i see this as an p2w element.
WOW is seen as the gold standard for MMO, the next two are Final fantasy and ESO. All but ESO require sub.For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
This has nothing to do with holy ZOS or fanboys^^ You assume that whatever needs cash spent and CAN give you and advantage in a fight is p2w. That seems to be your defintion of p2w. But as already numerously stated, that would mean almost every game ever created that brought new content out and had you pay for it is p2w. Sure you can see it as that, but then the term doesn't mean much anymore.
Think about it this way. The usual MMO game way was to bring out expansions, which you had to buy, or you were basically locked from the game. That is pay2play, not pay2win. ESO has basically this, BUT with the exception that you are not locked from content that you already payed for. Imagine, if those new expansions and DLCs did NOT have any interesting combat options whatsoever. Who would buy those? The game needs to be financed, after all.
tl;dr: Yes, there is a lot of content in ESO you need to buy to have access to, and which can give you an advantage. But if this is your only criteria for p2w, then every other game is p2w aswell that even remotely tries to charge you on an update per update basis. And many others, me included, have other criteria for p2w in addition.
I didnt stated additional content or any kind of dlc is automaticly p2w.
It needs to be balanced. I dont play another MMO so i can only compare to a few games. For example Battlefield. It also gets new weapons but they are balanced into the game to not become the new Meta.
I like how they handled it with clockwork City. Transmu System was part of the Base game Update . Why not juwelry crafting?
Anyway, you guys know my point of view and sadly there isnt any official definition of p2w to end this discussion.
Now then WOW drop an new expansion level cap increases and all dungeons and raids moves to the next expansion.
You can not access this without the expansion, nobody outside people leveling is doing the old content.
yes many guilds run old raids for new players or players who did not do them then they was hard.
Difference between old and new is over two time dps and migration, so you can not even touch quests in the new expansion, in overland pvp some scrub in questing gear will wipe you in bis pvp gear as he and gear is 10 level higher.
This has been standard since before wow burning crusade.
I assume Everquest and ulitma online did much of the same. So yes you was probably not old enough to play the game then this was standard.
I didnt played WoW cause i simply dont like the combat. Its boring for me and the overall style of the game with muskets and stuff isnt what i am looking for.
So before you assume i wasnt old enough to play it, maybe ask me why i didnt played it. Mister wise master above all.
The point was that when the gold standard for all MMOs was established... back on the late 90's. You were probably to young and don't realize this is how MMO's make their money to keep going. With out content that you pay for, the game dies.#SavePlayer10 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2w
Still i can transmute without buying cwc.
I can farm vouchers, buy from guildstore or a Friend Guild member got it in his House. No real life money needed. Not for juwelry crafting. I already stated that you still can buy or get crafted juwelry without summerset but my main point is, that i cant transmute it without summerset. So i am forced into crafted sets to make use of the new traits that came with Summerset. And dropped sets are mostly superior to crafted ones.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.
you cannot buy transmute station without CWC and you cannot research traits to transmute to without summerset
still not pay to win.
pay to acess, sure, but not pay to win.
here's what pay to win is. having to buy cash shop items oh being unable to progress because mobs hit too hard, and you don't hit hard enough. best gear ONLY being available from cash shop and you buy it and are immediately more powerful, significantly so without having to do anything else.
being unable to craft anything sucessfuly past a certain point unless you buy cash shop items. to explain what I mean... imagine if upgrading gear or weapons in ESO is 75% sucess rate... unless you buy cash shop item and it is THE ONLY way to reach 100% sucess rate. and the further you upgrade, the lower sucess rate is. imagine if your chance to gold jewelry or weapons can only hit 50% unless you buy cash shop item.
THAT is pay to win.
So, i cant buy transmu station with craft vouchers? Or from a Guild store?
I didnt know, i never tried.
Okay then by your logic lets make it not p2w. Put the item in an area wich you can only access by buying a certain DLC and the item needs to be farmed and is bind on pickup. Problem solved, no p2w anymore cause it cant be bought directly in cash shop. EZ.
which is exactly how it works with dropped items. and since you only need to have base game to buy overland or crafted items from other players? no point in making them BoP, cause selling to other players via in game gold is NOT pay to win. the fact that you can acess transmute station without having to buy the DLC provided a friend or guildie gives you acess? is actualy further argument that its NOT pay to win either.
heck, that you can buy crafting stations in cash shop is not pay to win either as they are actualy cheaper to buy with in game gold.
Can i transmute my healthy juwelry into robust/arcane/triune/infused or any other trait without owning summerset?
No.
Is robust/arcane/infused juwelry better then healthy for dps?
Yes.
That all i Need for myself to say in my personal opinion that i see this as an p2w element.
WOW is seen as the gold standard for MMO, the next two are Final fantasy and ESO. All but ESO require sub.For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
This has nothing to do with holy ZOS or fanboys^^ You assume that whatever needs cash spent and CAN give you and advantage in a fight is p2w. That seems to be your defintion of p2w. But as already numerously stated, that would mean almost every game ever created that brought new content out and had you pay for it is p2w. Sure you can see it as that, but then the term doesn't mean much anymore.
Think about it this way. The usual MMO game way was to bring out expansions, which you had to buy, or you were basically locked from the game. That is pay2play, not pay2win. ESO has basically this, BUT with the exception that you are not locked from content that you already payed for. Imagine, if those new expansions and DLCs did NOT have any interesting combat options whatsoever. Who would buy those? The game needs to be financed, after all.
tl;dr: Yes, there is a lot of content in ESO you need to buy to have access to, and which can give you an advantage. But if this is your only criteria for p2w, then every other game is p2w aswell that even remotely tries to charge you on an update per update basis. And many others, me included, have other criteria for p2w in addition.
I didnt stated additional content or any kind of dlc is automaticly p2w.
It needs to be balanced. I dont play another MMO so i can only compare to a few games. For example Battlefield. It also gets new weapons but they are balanced into the game to not become the new Meta.
I like how they handled it with clockwork City. Transmu System was part of the Base game Update . Why not juwelry crafting?
Anyway, you guys know my point of view and sadly there isnt any official definition of p2w to end this discussion.
Now then WOW drop an new expansion level cap increases and all dungeons and raids moves to the next expansion.
You can not access this without the expansion, nobody outside people leveling is doing the old content.
yes many guilds run old raids for new players or players who did not do them then they was hard.
Difference between old and new is over two time dps and migration, so you can not even touch quests in the new expansion, in overland pvp some scrub in questing gear will wipe you in bis pvp gear as he and gear is 10 level higher.
This has been standard since before wow burning crusade.
I assume Everquest and ulitma online did much of the same. So yes you was probably not old enough to play the game then this was standard.
I didnt played WoW cause i simply dont like the combat. Its boring for me and the overall style of the game with muskets and stuff isnt what i am looking for.
So before you assume i wasnt old enough to play it, maybe ask me why i didnt played it. Mister wise master above all.
The point was that when the gold standard for all MMOs was established... back on the late 90's. You were probably to young and don't realize this is how MMO's make their money to keep going. With out content that you pay for, the game dies.
But this new content doesnt need to give player an advantage about players who didnt bought it.
Sure, there needs to be new content for the health of the game but it is actually possible to make new content wich is balanced with the vanilla content.0 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2w
Still i can transmute without buying cwc.
I can farm vouchers, buy from guildstore or a Friend Guild member got it in his House. No real life money needed. Not for juwelry crafting. I already stated that you still can buy or get crafted juwelry without summerset but my main point is, that i cant transmute it without summerset. So i am forced into crafted sets to make use of the new traits that came with Summerset. And dropped sets are mostly superior to crafted ones.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.
you cannot buy transmute station without CWC and you cannot research traits to transmute to without summerset
still not pay to win.
pay to acess, sure, but not pay to win.
here's what pay to win is. having to buy cash shop items oh being unable to progress because mobs hit too hard, and you don't hit hard enough. best gear ONLY being available from cash shop and you buy it and are immediately more powerful, significantly so without having to do anything else.
being unable to craft anything sucessfuly past a certain point unless you buy cash shop items. to explain what I mean... imagine if upgrading gear or weapons in ESO is 75% sucess rate... unless you buy cash shop item and it is THE ONLY way to reach 100% sucess rate. and the further you upgrade, the lower sucess rate is. imagine if your chance to gold jewelry or weapons can only hit 50% unless you buy cash shop item.
THAT is pay to win.
So, i cant buy transmu station with craft vouchers? Or from a Guild store?
I didnt know, i never tried.
Okay then by your logic lets make it not p2w. Put the item in an area wich you can only access by buying a certain DLC and the item needs to be farmed and is bind on pickup. Problem solved, no p2w anymore cause it cant be bought directly in cash shop. EZ.
which is exactly how it works with dropped items. and since you only need to have base game to buy overland or crafted items from other players? no point in making them BoP, cause selling to other players via in game gold is NOT pay to win. the fact that you can acess transmute station without having to buy the DLC provided a friend or guildie gives you acess? is actualy further argument that its NOT pay to win either.
heck, that you can buy crafting stations in cash shop is not pay to win either as they are actualy cheaper to buy with in game gold.
Can i transmute my healthy juwelry into robust/arcane/triune/infused or any other trait without owning summerset?
No.
Is robust/arcane/infused juwelry better then healthy for dps?
Yes.
That all i Need for myself to say in my personal opinion that i see this as an p2w element.
WOW is seen as the gold standard for MMO, the next two are Final fantasy and ESO. All but ESO require sub.For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
This has nothing to do with holy ZOS or fanboys^^ You assume that whatever needs cash spent and CAN give you and advantage in a fight is p2w. That seems to be your defintion of p2w. But as already numerously stated, that would mean almost every game ever created that brought new content out and had you pay for it is p2w. Sure you can see it as that, but then the term doesn't mean much anymore.
Think about it this way. The usual MMO game way was to bring out expansions, which you had to buy, or you were basically locked from the game. That is pay2play, not pay2win. ESO has basically this, BUT with the exception that you are not locked from content that you already payed for. Imagine, if those new expansions and DLCs did NOT have any interesting combat options whatsoever. Who would buy those? The game needs to be financed, after all.
tl;dr: Yes, there is a lot of content in ESO you need to buy to have access to, and which can give you an advantage. But if this is your only criteria for p2w, then every other game is p2w aswell that even remotely tries to charge you on an update per update basis. And many others, me included, have other criteria for p2w in addition.
I didnt stated additional content or any kind of dlc is automaticly p2w.
It needs to be balanced. I dont play another MMO so i can only compare to a few games. For example Battlefield. It also gets new weapons but they are balanced into the game to not become the new Meta.
I like how they handled it with clockwork City. Transmu System was part of the Base game Update . Why not juwelry crafting?
Anyway, you guys know my point of view and sadly there isnt any official definition of p2w to end this discussion.
Now then WOW drop an new expansion level cap increases and all dungeons and raids moves to the next expansion.
You can not access this without the expansion, nobody outside people leveling is doing the old content.
yes many guilds run old raids for new players or players who did not do them then they was hard.
Difference between old and new is over two time dps and migration, so you can not even touch quests in the new expansion, in overland pvp some scrub in questing gear will wipe you in bis pvp gear as he and gear is 10 level higher.
This has been standard since before wow burning crusade.
I assume Everquest and ulitma online did much of the same. So yes you was probably not old enough to play the game then this was standard.
I didnt played WoW cause i simply dont like the combat. Its boring for me and the overall style of the game with muskets and stuff isnt what i am looking for.
So before you assume i wasnt old enough to play it, maybe ask me why i didnt played it. Mister wise master above all.
The point was that when the gold standard for all MMOs was established... back on the late 90's. You were probably to young and don't realize this is how MMO's make their money to keep going. With out content that you pay for, the game dies.
But this new content doesnt need to give player an advantage about players who didnt bought it.
Sure, there needs to be new content for the health of the game but it is actually possible to make new content wich is balanced with the vanilla content.
#SavePlayer10 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
you are equating 2 very different things. buying armor from a cash shop is NOT the same as buying acess to more content. oh and transmute station is in clockwork only. you can only transmute without having it if someone else shelled out some cash and grinded our the vouchers needed to have that thing in their house and then let you acess it.
and... incidentally. crafted jewelry is boe and can be bought. in every trait.
aka you are comparing apples to steaks here, and throwing " you are just a fanboy" because your argument has no merit to it.
fun part is.. the closest eso comes to pay to win is research scrolls and riding lessons because those save significant time and horse speed especialy is pretty important in cyrodil . and even that is debatable whether its actualy p2w.
only a person who has never played an actual p2w game can say that ESO is p2w
Still i can transmute without buying cwc.
I can farm vouchers, buy from guildstore or a Friend Guild member got it in his House. No real life money needed. Not for juwelry crafting. I already stated that you still can buy or get crafted juwelry without summerset but my main point is, that i cant transmute it without summerset. So i am forced into crafted sets to make use of the new traits that came with Summerset. And dropped sets are mostly superior to crafted ones.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Nah, you can transmute to Robustor Arcane as much as you like. No Jewelry Crafting required.The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
Is the one setup guaranteed to win against the other setup every time?
HINT: If the answer is "No" (Second HINTt: It is.), it's not P2W.
Close this old ass thread. Let the dead horse RIP.
HINT: you cant transmute juwelry without summerset.
you cannot buy transmute station without CWC and you cannot research traits to transmute to without summerset
still not pay to win.
pay to acess, sure, but not pay to win.
here's what pay to win is. having to buy cash shop items oh being unable to progress because mobs hit too hard, and you don't hit hard enough. best gear ONLY being available from cash shop and you buy it and are immediately more powerful, significantly so without having to do anything else.
being unable to craft anything sucessfuly past a certain point unless you buy cash shop items. to explain what I mean... imagine if upgrading gear or weapons in ESO is 75% sucess rate... unless you buy cash shop item and it is THE ONLY way to reach 100% sucess rate. and the further you upgrade, the lower sucess rate is. imagine if your chance to gold jewelry or weapons can only hit 50% unless you buy cash shop item.
THAT is pay to win.
So, i cant buy transmu station with craft vouchers? Or from a Guild store?
I didnt know, i never tried.
Okay then by your logic lets make it not p2w. Put the item in an area wich you can only access by buying a certain DLC and the item needs to be farmed and is bind on pickup. Problem solved, no p2w anymore cause it cant be bought directly in cash shop. EZ.
which is exactly how it works with dropped items. and since you only need to have base game to buy overland or crafted items from other players? no point in making them BoP, cause selling to other players via in game gold is NOT pay to win. the fact that you can acess transmute station without having to buy the DLC provided a friend or guildie gives you acess? is actualy further argument that its NOT pay to win either.
heck, that you can buy crafting stations in cash shop is not pay to win either as they are actualy cheaper to buy with in game gold.
Can i transmute my healthy juwelry into robust/arcane/triune/infused or any other trait without owning summerset?
No.
Is robust/arcane/infused juwelry better then healthy for dps?
Yes.
That all i Need for myself to say in my personal opinion that i see this as an p2w element.
WOW is seen as the gold standard for MMO, the next two are Final fantasy and ESO. All but ESO require sub.For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).
And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.
Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.
An example i gave already 1000 times:
2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.
One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.
The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.
So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.
Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.
And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.
by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.
heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.
by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now
Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.
Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.
every expansion in wow and most other mmo's on the market - bumps up max level of the character. you cannot even acess ANY end game until you buy expansion. your definition of pay to win is so ridiculously broad that ever, singly. multiplayer. game. is pay to win. and nevermind that you get far more of an gameplay advantage with better system/lower latency than you do with minor changes to jewelry traits. oh. right. by your definition, that's pay to win too, since both better internet and better system - cost more money.
oh and changing from healthy to robust means they have to make up for health lost elsewhere, likely through using different food. and you are back to square one.
I think i am just running against a fanboy wall here.
If a random mmo game would have an armor wich is decent but then puts the same armor with 1% better stats into cash shop everyone would go crazy. P2w, delete game, destroy company, QQ.
But on the other hand its compelty fine if ZOS gives you the option to run 2 dropped heavy sets on you with juwelry transformed into robust wich result in more damage and healing. Locked behind paywall.
But dare if someone calls this p2w cause of holy ZOS.
This has nothing to do with holy ZOS or fanboys^^ You assume that whatever needs cash spent and CAN give you and advantage in a fight is p2w. That seems to be your defintion of p2w. But as already numerously stated, that would mean almost every game ever created that brought new content out and had you pay for it is p2w. Sure you can see it as that, but then the term doesn't mean much anymore.
Think about it this way. The usual MMO game way was to bring out expansions, which you had to buy, or you were basically locked from the game. That is pay2play, not pay2win. ESO has basically this, BUT with the exception that you are not locked from content that you already payed for. Imagine, if those new expansions and DLCs did NOT have any interesting combat options whatsoever. Who would buy those? The game needs to be financed, after all.
tl;dr: Yes, there is a lot of content in ESO you need to buy to have access to, and which can give you an advantage. But if this is your only criteria for p2w, then every other game is p2w aswell that even remotely tries to charge you on an update per update basis. And many others, me included, have other criteria for p2w in addition.
I didnt stated additional content or any kind of dlc is automaticly p2w.
It needs to be balanced. I dont play another MMO so i can only compare to a few games. For example Battlefield. It also gets new weapons but they are balanced into the game to not become the new Meta.
I like how they handled it with clockwork City. Transmu System was part of the Base game Update . Why not juwelry crafting?
Anyway, you guys know my point of view and sadly there isnt any official definition of p2w to end this discussion.
Now then WOW drop an new expansion level cap increases and all dungeons and raids moves to the next expansion.
You can not access this without the expansion, nobody outside people leveling is doing the old content.
yes many guilds run old raids for new players or players who did not do them then they was hard.
Difference between old and new is over two time dps and migration, so you can not even touch quests in the new expansion, in overland pvp some scrub in questing gear will wipe you in bis pvp gear as he and gear is 10 level higher.
This has been standard since before wow burning crusade.
I assume Everquest and ulitma online did much of the same. So yes you was probably not old enough to play the game then this was standard.
I didnt played WoW cause i simply dont like the combat. Its boring for me and the overall style of the game with muskets and stuff isnt what i am looking for.
So before you assume i wasnt old enough to play it, maybe ask me why i didnt played it. Mister wise master above all.
The point was that when the gold standard for all MMOs was established... back on the late 90's. You were probably to young and don't realize this is how MMO's make their money to keep going. With out content that you pay for, the game dies.
But this new content doesnt need to give player an advantage about players who didnt bought it.
Sure, there needs to be new content for the health of the game but it is actually possible to make new content wich is balanced with the vanilla content.
I said more then enough that this is my personal opinion. If you want to prove me wrong give me facts why giving players who buy more then the basegame better better stat wise then compared to vanilla .
An facts, not : "WoW did it, so its fine" or some stupid reaction gifs.0 -
Archemer✭✭P2W is paid for gear progression.
No. Eso does not have that. The possible builds I've seen are far too varied for even the Warden or Vma argument to work.0
