See ya later crown crates!

Glurin · November 2018

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Ah yes. "Think of the children! For God's sake, won't anybody think of the children!!!"

Using children to evoke enough of an emotional response in people to shutdown the logic portions of their brains and agree with your agenda. Kind of ironic when you think about it.

In any event, you typically need a credit card to make loot box purchases, so there you go.

It is clear that you have not read the comments that related to the children comments. Of if you actually have read the comments then what you are doing now is clear strawman (which is ironic since the previous poster before you wrongly accused me of applying a strawman argument); I did not mention children in relation to eso or eso's crown crates. I was replying to someone that gave his opinion on physical baseball cards and how he thought that these too were not gambling, but that if crown crates should be considered gambling then the baseball cards should too. THAT is what I replied to saying that I do indeed think that these baseball cards are gambling and YES I do think they should be considered gambling and regulated as such, especially because CHILDREN were getting a gambling addiction and problem from buying them. You should know this if you have bothered yourself to read the comments that actually mentioned children.

You do realize that you finished your rant about not saying "Think of the children!" with "Think of the children!", right?

f047ys3v3n · November 2018

Of course crates are loot boxes and of course it is gambling. Corporate equivocations on this are the typical garbage you get from PR guys and lawyers. They say:

1) They arn't gambling because you always get more total crown value in a crate than buying the items individually.

Wow, what a load of hogwash. Creating super over priced consumable crown items that nobody buys like crown soul gems and crown food does not make those items worth what you priced them at. Do you think that it I open a convenience store selling $200 cans of pop and also $100 raffle tickets that might win you a car but will always give you a $200 can of pop I can avoid regulation. Lol. Nobody buys the crates as a less expensive way to get garbage crown food and everybody knows it.

2) Crown crates arn't gambling because crowns arn't money.

I guess casinos don't do gambling because they use chips then. How do you get crowns? Oh yea, money and only money.

3) Crown crates arn't gambling because the items involved have no real world value.

Not true, people pay lots of money for the items so they have value. Saying you can't exchange them in an EULA does not make them valueless. This has been ruled on in court several times when people destroyed other's in game items or stole them. A more interesting legal question here is whether it is legal to prevent people from selling desirable items to others or their accounts themselves because of an EULA. I would sort of doubt that with even money on both sides the EULA would stand. I think it is mostly a case of even money not being on both sides that keeps most EULA's afloat.

4) Crown crates are not gambling because the items are not pay to win, they are cosmetic.

Good on ZOS for keeping crown store not pay to win. They have been very good about this and I would be gone in two shakes if they weren't. It really doesn't have anything to do with whether crates are gambling though. I want a shadow senche mount a lot more than a perfected assylum staff despite the fact the mount offers no power benefit and the staff does. Value is determined by what people want and are willing to pay for and a mammoth fashion industry says that has little to do with utility.

So, I have to ask myself I care that crates are gambling and take advantage of weak minded adults as well as children and teens with their undeveloped prefrontal cortexes. I'm really not sure I want to answer that question because I know I would have to pay more for my gaming experience if is was not subsidized by people who are not fully in control of their actions in at least some sense. Moral questions, legal questions, even religious questions. I wonder what Arkay's take on gambling is? I'll bet I know Molag Balls.

IronWooshu · November 2018

I personally think Crown Crates are a waste of time, 400 crowns is not worth 3 cards of potions that I just delete for a measly 3 gems and 1 card of ugly blue eyelashes that I will never ever use and can't redeem for gems.

I honestly could careless for Crown Crates, I suggest giving ESO+ members 50 or 100 crown gems a month to increase subscriptions.

woe · November 2018

The lottery isn't going to go away so neither with microtransactions or loot crates.

MajBludd · November 2018

Don't like them, don't buy them, simple.

Or is it that you have no self control and have to blame somebody else for your addictions?

If you can't control your behavior seek help with the gambling hotlines.

Glurin · November 2018

MajBludd wrote: »

Don't like them, don't buy them, simple.

The only real hitch with that seniment, which I agree with by the way, is that there are a lot of people still buying them when they go P2W, which encourages even more of that nonsense.

Reistr_the_Unbroken · November 2018

So all of you screaming that crpwn crates should be banned, should the undaunted crates be banned as well, since you never know what you’re going to get?

Edit: phone sent the comment before I could finish it.

Elsonso · November 2018

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

So all of you screaming that crpwn crates should be banned, should the undaunted crates be banned as well, since you never know what you’re going to get?

Edit: phone sent the comment before I could finish it.

Real world cash is not required to get each Undaunted crate. If they would make Crown Crates purchasable only with gold (that cannot be purchased with real money) they would not be a problem.

KaiDynasty · November 2018

Duukar wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

I buy crown crates, I'm 100% against shaming people who do buy crates, but that being said I'd rather see lootboxes removed. They are gambling and thus gambling laws should apply to them.

I think microtransactions from the crown store are the best way for ZOS to keep this game profitable and thus running. Loot boxes are unnecessary.

You do understand that Crown Crates are loot boxes right??

No one is shaming you, and adult, for doing what you want with your money. However, gambling for those under age is illegal.

Every time you buy a Crown Crate you are gambling. 100% no debate.

I understand, but if it's illegal because a player is underage, couldn't a industry just put a +18 mark on the game and get a workaround of the problem in that way? I am not defending someone, i am just trying to understand how the law would be applied on a game where there are restrictions to age applied

Jolipinator · November 2018

They are still in the game as of November 30th. In fact they just brought back a previous season, Scalecaller.

thelawnranger79 · November 2018

https://goo.gl/images/hR8n6F

Troneon · November 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDSqODtEFM

Defilted · November 2018

Buy crates, dont buy crates. I dont care who does or who does not when we are talking about adults or anyones kid. I do not allow my children to buy loot boxes on any game.Children do not understand the concept of working for money. I buy them from time to time for myself, but not in large quantities.

I dont think there needs to be regulation here, just people using self control. Gamers will do a fine job not buying a game becasue of loot boxes. Look at the Starwars shooter.

Regulating companies with our wallets is the best way to curb behavior we do not want. Government regulation cost all tax payers lots of money. So you may not be buying crates, but you just have another reason for the government to whine they do not collect enough taxes.

Nothing is free in government. Always guard against handing them the rights to make a decision for you because you will never get that power back.

Bam_Bam · November 2018

The gambling industry is absolutely massive and propped up by the 1% (for example, the British and various Middle Eastern royal families interest and involvement in horse racing).
It's all big business and makes a lot of people a LOT of money (at your expense, but hey, enjoy your imaginary senche goat with wings) and as most of the western world is now dominated by corporate mindsets/greed, you can expect the rules governing loot boxes to be lax at best and upheld almost never.

Ermiq · November 2018

Acrolas wrote: »

“Loot boxes are one way that players can enhance the experience that video games offer. Contrary to assertions, loot boxes are not gambling. They have no real-world value, players always receive something that enhances their experience, and they are entirely optional to purchase. They can enhance the experience for those who choose to use them, but have no impact on those who do not.”

I laugh every time I read this statement. One couldn't find more BS than this.

At first, "They have no real-world value".
Come on! Are those guys in ESA protecting kids from gambling? They clearly not, and it's obvious. They are against slot machines and other 'real world gambling' because some lucky guy could get money cash from gambling. And while kid could only get pixels (and spend 'real world' money), thos ESA guys are feel absolutely Ok with that. What a BS!

At second, "players always receive something that enhances their experience".
Ok, so, what if I put a slot machine at my courtyard, and this slot machine will give you some cash (if you're lucky) and it anyway will give you a beautiful piece of paper on which I painted a sad smile

? It wouldn't be a gambling, right? BS, again.

At third, "they are entirely optional to purchase".
The same as any other gambling, obviously.

At forth, "They can enhance the experience for those who choose to use them, but have no impact on those who do not."
What's the difference with 'real world' gambling? Lucky guy could get some cash, and he could buy some expensive Armani suit to look cool, and other guy will be thinking "Hey, I want to try to get that too"...
So, in game no one could see that precious mount, skin, emote, etc, and no one could think "Hey, maybe I should try those 'not-a-gambling' crates?", and a lucky guy is not thinking "Cool, I look so cool."? Really?

Maybe I'm an idiot, but I just don't get it. What's the point? How stupid one should be to make such a statement as ESA guys made?

Fallen_Ray · November 2018

Acrolas wrote: »

ESO's version of the crate absolutely meets the outline of the Entertainment Software Association statement:

“Loot boxes are one way that players can enhance the experience that video games offer. Contrary to assertions, loot boxes are not gambling. They have no real-world value, players always receive something that enhances their experience, and they are entirely optional to purchase. They can enhance the experience for those who choose to use them, but have no impact on those who do not.”

That said, there are certainly loot box models in other games that fall outside that outline, and they need to be brought into compliance.

The end.

Quoting on this. Have you guys seen how these "loot crates" are opened? A khajit deals you face down cards, shames you when you get crap and prompts you to purchase more crates when you're out!!!! Don't casino dealers do the same? I've been to casinos and I know they do. If that's not gambling then I dunno what is.

For the record I don't waste my money on these. I only open the freebies I get on daily login rewards cuz... its free.

Elsonso · November 2018

KaiDynasty wrote: »

I understand, but if it's illegal because a player is underage, couldn't a industry just put a +18 mark on the game and get a workaround of the problem in that way? I am not defending someone, i am just trying to understand how the law would be applied on a game where there are restrictions to age applied

I think they have to do more than slap a label on the game. It has to be enforced.

For example, I see no indication that ESO has any age restrictions, despite being an M-rated/PEGI18 game. Yes, they ask your age, and if you answer wrong, too bad. But, if you give them an answer they are looking for, you are good to go. No further questions asked. I have never heard of ZOS aggressively taking action if they are informed that a child is playing the game. If they do not enforce it, does this open up ZOS to problems because they have kids opening Crown Crates in the M-rated game? IANAL.

Wifeaggro13 · November 2018

just so we are clear. Sub only MMOs with itemization earned in game were far far better. what started this whole debacle was greed by greedy CEO's. in 1999 and early 2000's SOE was baffled that the player driven in game economy was so vibrant that 16 year old kids were making 40 to 60 k a year of ebay items in game. at first they just wanted to stop, it then CEO's wanted a piece of the action. then they wanted the whole action ,then they wanted to steal it MMO's have been sliding into this cesspool since then.
ESO has become a worse game for players with its crown store and crates. earning a unique mount was a badge of honor for completing content. now it just equates into you spent 250 $ on crates to finally get your item.its profitable but extremely predatory considering the audience it age range. the corporatization of this genre has made it worse for the players not better. the games are watered down flash gimics to entice new players but not build long term loyal costumers.

Zos should be putting effort into not only fixing the broken core design of this game but emerging its game play. with new systems, and better content. right now they throw copy and pasted tile sets at you with leveling content that requires no emergent game play or levels and some half assed story to call a chapter and 3 dlc's that break the game with every new iteration.

Viscous119 · November 2018

If they can't sell you loot boxes, they will significantly INCREASE the monthly fee, which is a total win for them. Most likely they will stop free to play and implement a lower fee on a weekly basis. Anyway it goes, they will get their money in the end unless people start closing out their subscriptions. I hope the FTC does something about it.

karekiz · November 2018

Elder scrolls online: [ United States ] - ESRB Rated M
M is rough estimate of 17+
Gambling for an average casino is 21+. Most likely to do with drinking involved with gambling I would guess.
Lottery is average of 18 <No booze here>.

All they would really need to do is basically say this isn't a game for children and bump it up to an Adult rating as it is clearly aimed towards adults. The age rating given to the game + content inside is for mature audiences.

They will probably get away with that. The crown store isn't going away guys even if they did remove crowns. They would just place everything on the store as single purchases for "X" amount. Look at housing prices in this game for an example I would guess as houses don't generally have a crate drop value.

If they guess it will take 50-100 USD to get a mount. I bet the mount will cost between 50-100 USD. If they are smart they would make it 25 USD similar to EQ. They make great <Insert day here> gifts.

Don't believe me
http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.aspx

ADULTS ONLY
Content suitable only for adults ages 18 and up. May include prolonged scenes of intense violence, graphic sexual content and/or gambling with real currency.

So basically most games with gore in them will just bump up their rating by one and still keep their crown/gem/whatever. It hurts them retail value, but digitally not so much.

valusthecateater · November 2018

Acrolas wrote: »

ESO's version of the crate absolutely meets the outline of the Entertainment Software Association statement:

“Loot boxes are one way that players can enhance the experience that video games offer. Contrary to assertions, loot boxes are not gambling. They have no real-world value, players always receive something that enhances their experience, and they are entirely optional to purchase. They can enhance the experience for those who choose to use them, but have no impact on those who do not.”

That said, there are certainly loot box models in other games that fall outside that outline, and they need to be brought into compliance.

The end.

So a bunch of industry shills are telling us that gambling is not gambling simply because the rewards are not tangible? There is a real world value to the items received, and the industry would be more than willing to sell them to us directly if there wasn't an even more devious way to separate us from our money--the proverbial carrot on a stick routine. Like that mount we are showcasing? Try your luck! Aw, didn't get it? Try again, and again, ad nauseum.

Kuwhar · November 2018

I'll wait and see on the specifics but it's actually quite perplexing to me how, in the US, scratch off tickets (pure gambling) are 18+ and not regulated at all past that. (Some states 19-21 but mostly 18)

Yet, here we are trying to outright ban loot boxes as if they are somehow more insidious than scratch off tickets (which can be gifted to minors fyi)

I'm not a fan of loot boxes don't get me wrong but when it comes to things like this i'm a big proponent of freedom; freedom of choice of what a person can do with their time and money.

I think if this goes anywhere, ZoS probably will simply be required to employ an age verification system so that when a player wants to buy a crate they have to "confirm" their age. Much like adult sites do, since of course we all know; nobody lies on the internet.

If I was a company selling loot boxes that would be my first legal argument: "These are the exact same thing as scratch off tickets"

I don't see people freaking out over those.

nerfworthy · November 2018

You cannot go ahead and convert crown crate items to real life monetary value, so it is not technically "gambling" in the official sense.

The argument to federally mandate loot crates in this form as gambling is weak and very doubtful to pass.

kargen27 · November 2018

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

But part of the lease in purchasing Services is the consent that crowns have no monetary value, that nothing in the Crown Store has monetary value, and that you don't own anything resulting from a Services purchase.

If nobody believed that until now, the Official Sweepstakes Rules from the current promotion set a binding value:

"Three (3) prizes consisting of every digital collectible item that has been offered in The Elder
Scrolls ® Online Crown Store since the launch of The Elder Scrolls ® Online through the
Sweepstakes Period credited to the winner’s valid The Elder Scrolls ® Online account. ARV:
$0 USD."

No matter how much you have spent on leasing crowns or Services, the result of those purchases has absolutely no aftermarket value. That's why I always sigh a little when an argument starts "I've spent $$$ on this game so far." That spending, as per the terms and agreements, has not made you or your account more valuable. We all share the same $0 account baseline regardless of if you have nothing or if you have everything.

The account can't lose real value. The account can't gain real value. If you feel that you should receive some prestige or status out of purchasing Services, and that other people have to recognize some intrinsic value in what you have received in the game for the sake of your own self-worth, that's something else entirely that getting rid of loot boxes won't solve.

That's just something they claim to try to avoid certain regulations and because servers can be shutdown. In actuality, an account with more money spent on it and things unlocked is worth more than a brand new account, and that is why there are entire black markets based on the purchase of said accounts in pretty much any mmo.

The only time all accounts are actually worth the same amount is when the games inevitably go out of business and every server is shutdown, at which point they are all worth nothing.

Since it is against the Terms of Service agreement to transfer accounts legally every account is worth exactly the same. Actually that isn't completely true. Accounts that are already created are worth nothing. Accounts that have not yet been created are worth $9.99 and can be purchased here https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/store. People selling an account on the black market are putting a price on something that has no real value and people purchasing those accounts can (and sometimes do) end up with nothing.

Glurin · November 2018

Kuwhar wrote: »

I think if this goes anywhere, ZoS probably will simply be required to employ an age verification system so that when a player wants to buy a crate they have to "confirm" their age. Much like adult sites do, since of course we all know; nobody lies on the internet.

Darn right! Ain't gonna find anyone around here that's underage, that's for sure. Though I am amazed at how many 118 year olds there are poking around the ESO website.

kargen27 · November 2018

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Ah yes. "Think of the children! For God's sake, won't anybody think of the children!!!"

Using children to evoke enough of an emotional response in people to shutdown the logic portions of their brains and agree with your agenda. Kind of ironic when you think about it.

In any event, you typically need a credit card to make loot box purchases, so there you go.

It is clear that you have not read the comments that related to the children comments. Of if you actually have read the comments then what you are doing now is clear strawman (which is ironic since the previous poster before you wrongly accused me of applying a strawman argument); I did not mention children in relation to eso or eso's crown crates. I was replying to someone that gave his opinion on physical baseball cards and how he thought that these too were not gambling, but that if crown crates should be considered gambling then the baseball cards should too. THAT is what I replied to saying that I do indeed think that these baseball cards are gambling and YES I do think they should be considered gambling and regulated as such, especially because CHILDREN were getting a gambling addiction and problem from buying them. You should know this if you have bothered yourself to read the comments that actually mentioned children.

yeah that someone that mentioned baseball cards was me. I was also the one saying your children argument was/is a straw man argument and it absolutely is. We are discussing whether or not getting assorted cards in a crown crate is gambling. As part of my argument saying it is not gambling I mentioned the baseball card packs. You get the pack knowing you will get a set number of cards and you do get that set number of cards. Thus not gambling. Who is buying those packs or crates has zero to do with whether or not purchasing those crates and packs is gambling. It either is or it isn't and who buys them doesn't change that. Because you no exactly how many cards you will get it is not gambling. Any expectation beyond receiving the four cards is something the purchaser has created in his/her own mind.

I also think your guilty of a false correlation relating the purchase of loot boxes to later addictions of gambling. Some people are more prone to addiction. It could be drugs, gambling, thrill seeking or any number of other things. Again as I said in an earlier post a lot of this has to do with dopamine and how some people have a tendency to becoming addicted to the rush that occurs when dopamine is released. The kid that always takes the dare to jump off the roof or out of a tree could later be the adult that feels the need to spend hundreds of dollars at the horse track. It is a part of their personality. For most this isn't a problem. For those that do have this problem the sooner they can get a grip on it (often takes the help of others) the better. All that being said none of this changes whether or not those loot boxes are gambling.

There is one aspect of the crown crates I do not like and that is giving them for free as sign in rewards and other things. If a person does struggle with addiction those free crates are a temptation that can lead to serious overspending purchasing the crates. The sad part of this is most those types of people do not really care what the reward they receive is. The addiction is on the thrill of opening them. It isn't gambling because they know they are getting four things. It is still destructive though.

jaws343 · November 2018

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Of course crates are loot boxes and of course it is gambling. Corporate equivocations on this are the typical garbage you get from PR guys and lawyers. They say:

1) They arn't gambling because you always get more total crown value in a crate than buying the items individually.

Wow, what a load of hogwash. Creating super over priced consumable crown items that nobody buys like crown soul gems and crown food does not make those items worth what you priced them at. Do you think that it I open a convenience store selling $200 cans of pop and also $100 raffle tickets that might win you a car but will always give you a $200 can of pop I can avoid regulation. Lol. Nobody buys the crates as a less expensive way to get garbage crown food and everybody knows it.

2) Crown crates arn't gambling because crowns arn't money.

I guess casinos don't do gambling because they use chips then. How do you get crowns? Oh yea, money and only money.

3) Crown crates arn't gambling because the items involved have no real world value.

Not true, people pay lots of money for the items so they have value. Saying you can't exchange them in an EULA does not make them valueless. This has been ruled on in court several times when people destroyed other's in game items or stole them. A more interesting legal question here is whether it is legal to prevent people from selling desirable items to others or their accounts themselves because of an EULA. I would sort of doubt that with even money on both sides the EULA would stand. I think it is mostly a case of even money not being on both sides that keeps most EULA's afloat.

4) Crown crates are not gambling because the items are not pay to win, they are cosmetic.

Good on ZOS for keeping crown store not pay to win. They have been very good about this and I would be gone in two shakes if they weren't. It really doesn't have anything to do with whether crates are gambling though. I want a shadow senche mount a lot more than a perfected assylum staff despite the fact the mount offers no power benefit and the staff does. Value is determined by what people want and are willing to pay for and a mammoth fashion industry says that has little to do with utility.

So, I have to ask myself I care that crates are gambling and take advantage of weak minded adults as well as children and teens with their undeveloped prefrontal cortexes. I'm really not sure I want to answer that question because I know I would have to pay more for my gaming experience if is was not subsidized by people who are not fully in control of their actions in at least some sense. Moral questions, legal questions, even religious questions. I wonder what Arkay's take on gambling is? I'll bet I know Molag Balls.

I am going to ignore points 1, 3, and 4 because those aren't arguments that people are making.

Now as for point 2.

Casinos and chips are gambling. Why? Because if I buy 10$ worth of Chips, those Chips are worth 10$ and I can immediately exchange those chips for my 10$ and walk out of the casino. If I put 10$ of chips down on the Roulette table and it hits, those winnings are given to me in chips, and each of those chips have a real world value that I can then go up and cash out for actual money and walk out of the casino.

Crowns are not chips. They are a virtual currency that can not be exchanged for real world money. If I spent the same 10$ on crowns I could not cash in those crowns for money. When you spend money on Crowns, that is what your money is being spent on. Not the other consumables and mounts and cosmetic items in the Crown Store. You are buying worthless crowns and then deciding to exchange that worthless currency for other worthless items. Whether or not you apply a false sense of value to the currency is irrelevant. It equals 0$ the moment you hit purchase on the crowns. And anything you exchange the crowns for cannot be considered gambling because you are exchanging 1 item that has 0$ monetary value for another item that has 0$ monetary value.

Lylith · November 2018

deflorate wrote: »

The lottery isn't going to go away so neither with microtransactions or loot crates.

that's a fact.

Elsonso · November 2018

Glurin wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

I think if this goes anywhere, ZoS probably will simply be required to employ an age verification system so that when a player wants to buy a crate they have to "confirm" their age. Much like adult sites do, since of course we all know; nobody lies on the internet.

Darn right! Ain't gonna find anyone around here that's underage, that's for sure. Though I am amazed at how many 118 year olds there are poking around the ESO website.

Hey. That's how old I am!

Prof_Bawbag · November 2018

Acrolas wrote: »

ESO's version of the crate absolutely meets the outline of the Entertainment Software Association statement:

“Loot boxes are one way that players can enhance the experience that video games offer. Contrary to assertions, loot boxes are not gambling. They have no real-world value, players always receive something that enhances their experience, and they are entirely optional to purchase. They can enhance the experience for those who choose to use them, but have no impact on those who do not.”

That said, there are certainly loot box models in other games that fall outside that outline, and they need to be brought into compliance.

The end.

Yeah, and if they could get away with it, we can get a tobacco association, backed by most of the large tobacco companies to tell us smoking tobacco is not as harmful as others make it out to be.

Got to love the gaming industry. They manage to convince the hordes that the colour red is actually the colour blue and they believe it. Like that "study" that claims playing the likes of Minecraft and other games is good for teaching young kids educational skills. That entire study was funded by the gaming industry, yet the hordes don't question that nonsense. It must be legit because a few media outlets ran with it without looking who was actually doing/funding the research.