Is it time to change the CP system?

D0PAMINE · November 2018

The System is fine as it is

Point system needs to be clearer

Wifeaggro13 · November 2018

The system needs a change

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

At this point I’m starting to notice that my last 10 to 30 cp are pretty much a toss up. Of course this depends on class, stam, magic and whether you’re playing pve or pvp. I mostly play pvp , so I feel there’s naturally more cp spent for it. Keeping that in mind that means that’s less cp that needs to be spent in pve and more toss up points.

In my opinion, I think it’s that time again to make some changes to the cp trees. It doesn’t need to be something complex, it could be something like switching things around or adding simple quality of life changes like inventory space.

Eventually we will have too much CP and, I’m already starting to see that happen in some cases. Thoughts?

it is by far the most rudimentary alternate advancement system in any MMO. By this point 4 years post-launch All MMO's have several layers to their AA system. trees with active abilities, role defining trees and far far better balance. this system is just a trash can of implementation its basically worse then VR system. ZOS is so busy making crown crate items and finding ways to artificially extend the life of their game instead making new game systems. Its a dart board meta every patch , for a AAA title with one of the largest IP's in the fantasy genre I'm baffled that they are willing to bank their money on a churn base population.

Tan9oSuccka · November 2018

Remove CP

Aliyavana wrote: »

People are too attached to their cp so support for this will be minimal. It makes up for their builds weaknesses and makes imbalance in pvp even worse. Balancing around cp is the worst thing that has happened to this game and it needs to be replaced with something else.

I agree. Back to VR ranks?

Only half kidding.

idk · November 2018

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

People are too attached to their cp so support for this will be minimal. It makes up for their builds weaknesses and makes imbalance in pvp even worse. Balancing around cp is the worst thing that has happened to this game and it needs to be replaced with something else.

I agree. Back to VR ranks?

Only half kidding.

Aliyavana is correct that gamers tend to be attached to what they have worked for and it generally does not go over well when that it taken away.

Zos mistakenly thought the VR ranks were a good idea because they do not think things through and they probably do not have many real gamers in the mix.

Unfortunately it was the same people who devised the replacement and spent as much effort thinking it through as well. As I pointed out they did not even have a plan for removing the VR tanks when they implemented the replacement for VR ranks. How poorly thought out can that be. Not to mention the original cap was the full 3600 CP and we were expected to hit that cap in less than 2 years time.

So we still have the same people at the helm leaving us with no reason to think Zos could devise a worthy replacement that would be good.

Rungar · November 2018

my only issue with the cp system is that it rounds down so you can spend point but get no benefit.

Runs · November 2018

Many new players look at the amounts us old timers have and think it will take forever, or even forever just to hit the cap. The exp it takes you to hit cap now from scratch is the same or slightly less than it took us to hit 500cp before catch up mechanics were introduced. I have no pitty towards people thinking 200m(817cp from 0cp currently, 500cp from pre Wrothgar DLC) exp is too much.

The way the CP is frontloaded and has diminishing returns also narrows down the advantage, but there is still advantage.

I am personally fine with it as it is but at this point I would rather have them completely change it to remove every bit of combat advantage it has just to shut people up. Change it to give other bonuses, such as ones towards earning gold, loot, guild kiosk listings, and a ton of other things that would essentially put us all on equal footing(other than skill) during combat.

CatchMeTrolling · November 2018

The system needs a change

Runs wrote: »

Many new players look at the amounts us old timers have and think it will take forever, or even forever just to hit the cap. The exp it takes you to hit cap now from scratch is the same or slightly less than it took us to hit 500cp before catch up mechanics were introduced. I have no pitty towards people thinking 200m(817cp from 0cp currently, 500cp from pre Wrothgar DLC) exp is too much.

The way the CP is frontloaded and has diminishing returns also narrows down the advantage, but there is still advantage.

I am personally fine with it as it is but at this point I would rather have them completely change it to remove every bit of combat advantage it has just to shut people up. Change it to give other bonuses, such as ones towards earning gold, loot, guild kiosk listings, and a ton of other things that would essentially put us all on equal footing(other than skill) during combat.

It’s easy to catch up if you grind for it and play a lot of pve content that reward good xp. If someone plays casually they’ll take forever to hit cap, even if they log a few hours everyday. Seen a bunch players in that scenario, You also have to consider the fact it’s more than just about how much exp it takes. Their knowledge, skill, gold, gear accessibility, friends, time etc. can all play a factor when it comes to reaching cap. Although this might be an entirely different discussion.

CatchMeTrolling · November 2018

The system needs a change

Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »

The only change I want to CP is for them to stop adding to it. When I started in September last year, the max was 660. I just finally got to that and the max is 810 now. It seems like a carrot I will never reach.

You’ll get there, you still have something to look forward to. A lot of veterans don’t cp wise, right now new gear acts more like progression to cap players than cp does.

Mr_Walker · November 2018

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Yeah, I think the game would be better without cp, at least in pvp.

If only there were a no-CP campaign....

Understand that cp also affects no cp because while CP serves as a “counter” to certain things you don’t get that luxury in no cp. Damage for one is out of control in no cp. You lose stats. Not only that, nerfs like the ones in Morrowind outside of cp (armor nerfs for example) content hurt no cp more.

So I'm a bit confused. You want no CP, but no CP is no good?

CatchMeTrolling · November 2018

The system needs a change

Mr_Walker wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Yeah, I think the game would be better without cp, at least in pvp.

If only there were a no-CP campaign....

Understand that cp also affects no cp because while CP serves as a “counter” to certain things you don’t get that luxury in no cp. Damage for one is out of control in no cp. You lose stats. Not only that, nerfs like the ones in Morrowind outside of cp (armor nerfs for example) content hurt no cp more.

So I'm a bit confused. You want no CP, but no CP is no good?

You said if only there was a no cp campaign, right? To my understanding you’re implying that no cp is fine the way it is simply because there’s no cp involved. When really no cp has flaws specifically because of the cp system. A good amount of changes for pvp are made with CP pvp in mind, no cp is an afterthought. Therefore nerfs & buffs affect no cp more.

BlazingDynamo · November 2018

Other (Explain)

Expand the CP tree vastly. Give greater amounts of choices to invest in and more passives so that selecting what you invest in suits your play style or gives more meaning to your choices.

Diminish certain CP perks so it's not a clear "dump everything in here and nothing else matters".

Simply just expand it. I don't think it's a bad design I just think we've gotten so far ahead in CP that most of what's available doesn't even really matter anymore. I don't feel like I'm getting any more powerful with each increase because I've already got all my points into where they need to be.

CatchMeTrolling · November 2018

The system needs a change

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Expand the CP tree vastly. Give greater amounts of choices to invest in and more passives so that selecting what you invest in suits your play style or gives more meaning to your choices.

Diminish certain CP perks so it's not a clear "dump everything in here and nothing else matters".

Simply just expand it. I don't think it's a bad design I just think we've gotten so far ahead in CP that most of what's available doesn't even really matter anymore. I don't feel like I'm getting any more powerful with each increase because I've already got all my points into where they need to be.

Sounds like you pretty much think it could use some change. Ideally, change adding to the system that’s already in place.

From most of the posts in the thread some sort of expansion seems to be the general consensus of the system stays.

The “dump everything here” aspect of the trees is probably the biggest issue since once at cap there’s nothing else of use.

D0PAMINE · November 2018

The System is fine as it is

Rungar wrote: »

my only issue with the cp system is that it rounds down so you can spend point but get no benefit.

Yeah I tell people this and offer to help them optimize their champion points

TheShadowScout · November 2018

Other (Explain)

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Is it time to change the CP system?

Wrong question.

The right question would be:
"Would changes to the CP system improve the game in a way that benefits ZOS enough to be worth the effort for them?"
...and the answer to that is most likely: NO!

And since changing it doesn't benefit them, they won't spend resources on even thinking about change there.
Which is pretty much the standard answer to any of those "Should ZOS change something...?" questions. Unless it nets ZOS greater profits, either directly through crown store sales, or indirectly by making new people play the game and old people play it some more... or fixes -actual- faults in the game that kept people from playing it... fuggeddaboudit.

chaoseater99 · November 2018

Other (Explain)

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

- Add more customization so their character feels more unique and choices are more impactful. This also includes non combat options such as crafting and loot

- Open to roles and character specialization

- Don’t make choices so obvious. Narrow down the options so players can’t choose whatever they want; creating a “jack of all trades” scenario

This is something I really wish for. The game feels too saturated, with too few classes, and due to the balancing scenario there are barely 5 or 6 different builds the majority playerbase keep following. And the system sort of allows creating Jack of all Trades, with so little customization.

I wish they could change it in a way that would offer more unique playstyles and builds. A lot more variety in general. Tired of seeing everyone just running around as a Stamblade/MagSorc/Stamden.

Maryal · November 2018

The System is fine as it is

The system is fine the way it is.

I am at the CP cap and have been for quite some time. When I reached the point of diminishing returns, I started to look at the CP system in a different way - I saw the opportunity to create a hybrid build that could deal damage on par with a pure magica or pure stamina build. Right now it's not possible, but as the CP cap continues to rise, that possibility gets closer and closer. I am very excited about this - it will open the door to a lot of new possibilities.

lucky_Sage · November 2018

Other (Explain)

Cp system needs a 100% complete overhaul. It is the most broken unbalanced thing in game it is the cause for the majority of bad nerfs and changes and stupid broken sets

zaria · November 2018

The System is fine as it is

KaiDynasty wrote: »

In my opinion they should rework the cp system and make it to provide a vertical progression and not a horizontal progression.
Right now more cp you have, more you will be tanky, more you will healing, more you will deal damage. Yes you can put all of the cps just in some perk to be full tank / full healer / full dps at once but imo that's not good because as the cp are "spreaded" you can gain more of these attributes (because cps are limited in blue, red, green tree, so you are forced to gain resistances in addition to sustain and damage).
They should spread cp in a way where players aren't forced to put cps in the 3 trees, but if they want to fully go sustain, being able to put all the cps in that direction. This is just a way to change the system.
It is clear that more the cps are, more the differences on builds are less because cps compensate for them, so in a long future, cps will make all just the same thing, and that's not good.

if you look at most builds they are very min maxed at least for pve, for pvp you would want an more spread out layout

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Runs wrote: »

Many new players look at the amounts us old timers have and think it will take forever, or even forever just to hit the cap. The exp it takes you to hit cap now from scratch is the same or slightly less than it took us to hit 500cp before catch up mechanics were introduced. I have no pitty towards people thinking 200m(817cp from 0cp currently, 500cp from pre Wrothgar DLC) exp is too much.

The way the CP is frontloaded and has diminishing returns also narrows down the advantage, but there is still advantage.

I am personally fine with it as it is but at this point I would rather have them completely change it to remove every bit of combat advantage it has just to shut people up. Change it to give other bonuses, such as ones towards earning gold, loot, guild kiosk listings, and a ton of other things that would essentially put us all on equal footing(other than skill) during combat.

It’s easy to catch up if you grind for it and play a lot of pve content that reward good xp. If someone plays casually they’ll take forever to hit cap, even if they log a few hours everyday. Seen a bunch players in that scenario, You also have to consider the fact it’s more than just about how much exp it takes. Their knowledge, skill, gold, gear accessibility, friends, time etc. can all play a factor when it comes to reaching cap. Although this might be an entirely different discussion.

No, doing an random dungeon or 3-4 quests will use up your enlightenment and the 4x xp gain bonus.
After that its slow to gain xp, you have to do 5 random dungeons on alts to get double the xp of one.
Yes if you play less than that as in just couple of hour each week you will use forever but then you will use forever just doing the quests.

As other says, front loading and different importance of nodes makes the first CP way more relevant than the later ones.
Only issue with CP is PvP as you both do more damage and get more sturdy this generates an double effect in PvP while in PvE the sturdiness is mostly just nice but not critical.

CatchMeTrolling · November 2018

The system needs a change

Maryal wrote: »

The system is fine the way it is.

I am at the CP cap and have been for quite some time. When I reached the point of diminishing returns, I started to look at the CP system in a different way - I saw the opportunity to create a hybrid build that could deal damage on par with a pure magica or pure stamina build. Right now it's not possible, but as the CP cap continues to rise, that possibility gets closer and closer. I am very excited about this - it will open the door to a lot of new possibilities.

You’re okay with the system in place for the sake of hybrids? If anything ZOS needs to add a better way to be effective as a hybrid. The concept of getting stronger in every area is something you see in the single player games but it doesn’t belong online. Because while your hybrid will work everyone else will have unbalanced builds.

CatchMeTrolling · November 2018

The system needs a change

chaoseater99 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

- Add more customization so their character feels more unique and choices are more impactful. This also includes non combat options such as crafting and loot

- Open to roles and character specialization

- Don’t make choices so obvious. Narrow down the options so players can’t choose whatever they want; creating a “jack of all trades” scenario

This is something I really wish for. The game feels too saturated, with too few classes, and due to the balancing scenario there are barely 5 or 6 different builds the majority playerbase keep following. And the system sort of allows creating Jack of all Trades, with so little customization.

I wish they could change it in a way that would offer more unique playstyles and builds. A lot more variety in general. Tired of seeing everyone just running around as a Stamblade/MagSorc/Stamden.

Same builds and classes is a good point . We see this both in PvE and PvP. It gets to the point where there’s clear bis classes and setups. That’s not unheard of in mmos but when it’s so few of them it’s a problem. Adding more customization options could alleviate some of the issues with that. When everyone is running the same thing something needs to change.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · November 2018

Remove CP

Change? CP ruined almost everything in this game. It got people hooked to meaningless vertical progression while stealing so much power from individual races and class skills.

"Hurr Durr, make the numbers bigger next to my name so I can brag!!! Now I do .00000015% more damage"

Meanwhile,

class uniqueness got gutted
Interesting racial passives nerfed to hell and back
Huge nerfs every patch, to sustain
Classes and synergies getting homogenized.

Remove the terrible Crapeon system and spit on its ashes.

I know that some MMO players need meaningless vertical progression and bigger numbers so they FEEEEEEEL more powerful, (even though they arent and the game is always made harder to compensate) but vertical progression is a hollow lie.

Horizontal progression is where it is at. There is another name for horizontal progression. It's called content. Psyjic order, jewelry crafting (despite how exclusive, and grindy, those were) are all much better than vertical progression.

mongoLC · November 2018

Other (Explain)

Remove the CP cap let us use what we have earned!

CatchMeTrolling · November 2018

The system needs a change

mongoLC wrote: »

Remove the CP cap let us use what we have earned!

Yeah that would be really ridiculous, there was already a time where that was possible and certain players grinded endlessly. It also didn’t work when pc players transferred to console with 300-400 more cp than people with no cp.

Cinbri · November 2018

Remove CP

Spreading game into CP and noCP to balance is simply impossible. Game should be unified, it will make balancing much easier.

MaxwellC · November 2018

Remove CP

I for one would love some consistency and that only comes when ZOS removes CP i.e the crutch that gets classes/armors nerfed.
Armor should provide that sweet spot in regards to expanding your build while your class should define the options you have in terms of engaging in combat.

If CP was removed then there would be less balance issues IMO because people would have to stop stacking X and focus more on a balance.

I continue to think till this day that if CP was removed, DKs would have never lost so many class defining skills that made them a force to be dealt with. Now DKs have to be pigeon-holed into a "Meta" just to really have fun in PvP whereas a small portion continue to avoid the meta but have to go to the extreme in finding things that made them somewhat deadly.

PS4_ZeColmeia · November 2018

The System is fine as it is

Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »

The only change I want to CP is for them to stop adding to it. When I started in September last year, the max was 660. I just finally got to that and the max is 810 now. It seems like a carrot I will never reach.

You'll be amazed at how being a completionist will help this.

CatchMeTrolling · November 2018

The system needs a change

Cinbri wrote: »

Spreading game into CP and noCP to balance is simply impossible. Game should be unified, it will make balancing much easier.

I agree that it would be much easier to balance and, we would probably see less nerfs directed towards pve affecting pvp and vice versa. Right now the devs have to balance cp, cp pvp, no cp pvp and pve content all at once. Doesn’t seem ideal.

DanteYoda · November 2018

The system needs a change

CP should have stopped at 160... Then open world content would not be trivial, every customer would be the same level in mechanics and dungeons and PvP etc would have been less insane..

Honestly the whole endless CP power creep destroyed their whole game.

JinMori · November 2018

Other (Explain)

temjiu wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

KaiDynasty wrote: »

In my opinion they should rework the cp system and make it to provide a vertical progression and not a horizontal progression.
Right now more cp you have, more you will be tanky, more you will healing, more you will deal damage. Yes you can put all of the cps just in some perk to be full tank / full healer / full dps at once but imo that's not good because as the cp are "spreaded" you can gain more of these attributes (because cps are limited in blue, red, green tree, so you are forced to gain resistances in addition to sustain and damage).
They should spread cp in a way where players aren't forced to put cps in the 3 trees, but if they want to fully go sustain, being able to put all the cps in that direction. This is just a way to change the system.
It is clear that more the cps are, more the differences on builds are less because cps compensate for them, so in a long future, cps will make all just the same thing, and that's not good.

A concept mmos typically use. This stops players from being jack of all trades in a sense, that’s the direction it’ll ultimately go, again. I was for something like this early on. Damage, mitigation, sustain and healing for example should probably be in the same tree. Or like you said remove the trees and add a point system where you are force to invest in multiple areas but not all. So you can be good at damage and healing but subpar when it comes to mitigation.

I agree with this. Ultimately CP will kill class individuality and homogenize the game since we'll all have maxed resists, maxed damage, and maxed healing. They should either put a lock in place, or re-align passives so you can't have them all. Most MMO's lock progression in one way or another, and CP is the current progression system in place. Class levels are really just there for skill points at this point...skills are unlocked by use, and real power is all in the CP.

At the same time, I would also be for adding more QoL variances to the trees. run speed, sprint speed, CD reduction, AoE range increases, Duratiob increases...they could add a ton of stuff that would change how skills worked, and thin out the point investments at the same time.

The cp system is not what homogenizes the game, this is where i think most people are wrong, you look at it superficially, the problem is not cp, the problem is that zos made a system, but they don;t fully commit to it, they didn;t make new harder modes to counterbalance the cp power gain, so, this is ultimately a money problem, zos would rather spend money making new content and crown store items rather than bettering the game, because that is not a direct way to make money.

Ultimately it's laziness, it's greed, it's the fact that they don;t really care about making a good game, only about making as much money as they can, fine if that is the case i won't be part of this farce much longer.

I already play this game a lot less.

I find this way of thinking, cp is the problem as very narrow view.

Skullstachio · November 2018

The System is fine as it is

In truth: Until a suitable replacement can be found in place of the champion system, The Champion point system will remain until something better can be found as any changes currently could make for a more dangerous power creep that could irritate most of the community and ZOS even more than before and a clear mind is better than a troubled one.