Is it time to change the CP system?

CatchMeTrolling

At this point I’m starting to notice that my last 10 to 30 cp are pretty much a toss up. Of course this depends on class, stam, magic and whether you’re playing pve or pvp. I mostly play pvp , so I feel there’s naturally more cp spent for it. Keeping that in mind that means that’s less cp that needs to be spent in pve and more toss up points.

In my opinion, I think it’s that time again to make some changes to the cp trees. It doesn’t need to be something complex, it could be something like switching things around or adding simple quality of life changes like inventory space.

Eventually we will have too much CP and, I’m already starting to see that happen in some cases. Thoughts?

Edit: Although, a minuscule portion of the community voted I didn’t expect the voting to be this close.

From what I’ve gathered

- Some players feel they no longer are progressing.

- Others think the system needs to be revamped or expanded on.

- A good amount (unexpectedly) are for removing cp completely.

- The system could be more concise

- Increase diminishing returns

- More quality of life changes

- Horizontal progression is an issue

- The constant power creep is having a negative impact on the game

- CP has affected classes and skills in a negative way due to nerfs

- Lower the cap in pve and remove cp from pvp

- Add more customization so their character feels more unique and choices are more impactful. This also includes non combat options such as crafting and loot

- Open to roles and character specialization

- Don’t make choices so obvious. Narrow down the options so players can’t choose whatever they want; creating a “jack of all trades” scenario

- CP is fine, mostly due to wanting to use what they’ve earned

Update two - It is clear, even with a small amount in comparison to the entirety of the population that players don’t feel the same about cp as they did one year ago. Before Morrowind polls and threads like this typically ended up being one sided. Using the top 3 votes, we can ASSUME the community is split between the system being fine and wanting to change it . While a good portion is done with it completely.

I also would like for everyone to vote if you haven’t and encourage others as well. Need as many votes as possible to get a general idea of where the community stands.

Aliyavana

Remove CP

People are too attached to their cp so support for this will be minimal. It makes up for their builds weaknesses and makes imbalance in pvp even worse. Balancing around cp is the worst thing that has happened to this game and it needs to be replaced with something else.

VaranisArano

One Tamriel moved from vertical progression through vet levels in zones geared for those levels to horizontal progression where players gradually grow in power in static content. This results in ZOS constantly adjusting the meta to keep players grinding so they dont get bored with getting more powerful vs static content.

Unless ZOS changes their methods of horizontal progression, I dont think you'll see removal or lowering Champion Points. We might get an overhaul a la Morrowind, but given that ZOS is changing how they do their combat updates (again) I dont expect it for a while.

OFFL1MIT

The System is fine as it is

Pvp already is mostly non cp, sofa sil non cp and battle ground too. Cp is somewhat balanced in my point of view, its just these sets that when u combine with cp they make you an almost invincible

MythrialDrow

Other (Explain)

I love this game and I’m at 1200. I would like to be able to use it. I feel like I’m not progressing or going anywhere.

CatchMeTrolling

The system needs a change

Aliyavana wrote: »

People are too attached to their cp so support for this will be minimal. It makes up for their builds weaknesses and makes imbalance in pvp even worse. Balancing around cp is the worst thing that has happened to this game and it needs to be replaced with something else.

Yeah, I think the game would be better without cp, at least in pvp. Albeit, I don’t see them removing cp anytime soon simply because the player base is too accustomed to cp. But they could remove cp and give players the power back in other ways.

CatchMeTrolling

The system needs a change

MythrialDrow wrote: »

I love this game and I’m at 1200. I would like to be able to use it. I feel like I’m not progressing or going anywhere.

That’s partially my point. Even maxed out there’s no sense of progression right now. We’re at the point where the last bit of cp that you lock in is just filler. It’ll only get worse as cp continues to rise. So right now ZOS should be thinking about ways to change it without pissing everyone off.

CatchMeTrolling

The system needs a change

VaranisArano wrote: »

One Tamriel moved from vertical progression through vet levels in zones geared for those levels to horizontal progression where players gradually grow in power in static content. This results in ZOS constantly adjusting the meta to keep players grinding so they dont get bored with getting more powerful vs static content.

Unless ZOS changes their methods of horizontal progression, I dont think you'll see removal or lowering Champion Points. We might get an overhaul a la Morrowind, but given that ZOS is changing how they do their combat updates (again) I dont expect it for a while.

What I have noticed with newer content is they’ll add cheap/annoying mechanics to combat the power creep but, it seems to only turn away the average pver from new group content. Maybe there needs to be more incentives to spread out cp, they tried it with morrowind but it wasn’t good enough. Players adjusted and the power creep continued.

mxxo

Other (Explain)

I like the cp system but meanwhile you get enough cp to max stats at 100 without a problem. It doesnt feel like a big decision because of that. It needs to be improved.

russelmmendoza

The System is fine as it is

Please let this not be a nerf the cp system campaign.

idk

LOL, did op actually suggest making CP about inventory space?

CatchMeTrolling

The system needs a change

idk wrote: »

LOL, did op actually suggest making CP about inventory space?

Read it again, I said they could add quality of life changes to the cp system such as inventory space. You know, to get rid of excess CP...

LeHarrt91

I like a lot of the passives that are in the CP tree like wind runner, master harvester etc, so maybe removing the 15%/25% etc buff to damage, healing and replace them with more less potent passive would be ideal.

CatchMeTrolling

The system needs a change

mxxo wrote: »

I like the cp system but meanwhile you get enough cp to max stats at 100 without a problem. It doesnt feel like a big decision because of that. It needs to be improved.

Yes but how can ZOS improve the system and add more progression if players don’t want them to change it. It seems as if most are satisfied with 30 points per update with no tweaks at all. CP has reached the point where if you’re maxed out you’ll have everything you need. Whatever we get from now on is just excess cp.

CatchMeTrolling

The system needs a change

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I like a lot of the passives that are in the CP tree like wind runner, master harvester etc, so maybe removing the 15%/25% etc buff to damage, healing and replace them with more less potent passive would be ideal.

I’m for this. This is what I meant by quality of life changes. Although I’m not sure they could remove damage and healing percentages but they could give more incentive to spread points out.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

Other (Explain)

I cant believe im saying this...but I want Vet Ranks back!...yes I know I was an ultra pro CP fanboii...but seeing it how it affected the game makes me regret every second of it...and le ts face It due to the current CP system crafting is pretty much dead from the CP10-140 range...literally u can grind with purple lvl 30 stuff till 160 also its no point doing it twice since after that once u hit 50 u basically get ur overall CP...sure an overhaul would be good...but then the question...how? I am already aware that the game its in a very sorry state and the population is in a huge decline especially from murkmire...lets say they bring back vet ranks or idk increase gear cap that would be pretty much the final nail since a lot of people dont want to go back grinding VMA and stuff...however I wouldn't be 100% against it...after all that might refresh the market a bit and the community perhaps? it feels that people turned into porcelain figures...they just stand there and be pretty... oh well this is pointless discussion to begin with since CP wont be changed from what it is and ZOS will only due slight tweaks to it but nothing major...

CatchMeTrolling

The system needs a change

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

I cant believe im saying this...but I want Vet Ranks back!...yes I know I was an ultra pro CP fanboii...but seeing it how it affected the game makes me regret every second of it...and le ts face It due to the current CP system crafting is pretty much dead from the CP10-140 range...literally u can grind with purple lvl 30 stuff till 160 also its no point doing it twice since after that once u hit 50 u basically get ur overall CP...sure an overhaul would be good...but then the question...how? I am already aware that the game its in a very sorry state and the population is in a huge decline especially from murkmire...lets say they bring back vet ranks or idk increase gear cap that would be pretty much the final nail since a lot of people dont want to go back grinding VMA and stuff...however I wouldn't be 100% against it...after all that might refresh the market a bit and the community perhaps? it feels that people turned into porcelain figures...they just stand there and be pretty... oh well this is pointless discussion to begin with since CP wont be changed from what it is and ZOS will only due slight tweaks to it but nothing major...

I didn’t think of the crafting part but that is true. Most gear that’s created that’s not cp 160 is non vet gear for leveling or pvp. Thinking back to vet ranks it was actually a nice period for the game besides all the extra grinding. CP wise it was just right even with the stam and magic bias in the trees. The population was crazy back then as well. Although I think it’s too late to turn back because now it’s a lot of different players and I think zos knows that. So they must tailor the game towards them.

I don’t think it’s a pointless discussion. It’s one that must happen between the community and definitely a discussion ZOS will have. If anyone expects the CP system to stay the same for the next 3 years I don’t know what to tell them.

Kidgangster101

The system needs a change

We don't need vet system back lol, but I agree CP is a huge problem in this game. I think all the CP percentages need to be lowered. I am tired of moves being nerfed because CP is out of control.

A problem that will happen is the high CP people won't want to lose power. That's the same reason the non CP pvp is not popular. People with less skill need a crutch and don't want any change.

But if they tuned down percentages you can achieve for each area it could improve the life of the game drastically. Before removing it they can try to alter it like that. This way people don't lose their 810cp but it just makes it less effective.

Elwendryll

Remove CP

I'd like the progression to open new gameplay mechanics, not raw stats. Like some of the perks you unlock : a kill with an heavy attack make you invisible, you can deal damage to an enemy if you block, shield while blocking, regen magicka for you and allies when you kill an enemy...

I'd like some exotics perks that open original and fun gameplay...

lokulin

Other (Explain)

I'm fairly happy with the way it is but would be open to a change if it was well thought through. Better rewards for achievement hunting might satisfy people's desire for other types of progression besides leveling.

Because of the way CP, sets bonuses, racial passives, skills and passives all interact I think there will ever be a hope of a well balanced game for all players. There are too many places where people can stack race, class, CP and skill buffs. Personally I think the current way item sets, passives, CP and bonuses interact is fundamentally broken and possibly impossible to balance. So, yeah change CP if you want but it won't be the panacea you are hoping for.

CatchMeTrolling

The system needs a change

Elwendryll wrote: »

I'd like the progression to open new gameplay mechanics, not raw stats. Like some of the perks you unlock : a kill with an heavy attack make you invisible, you can deal damage to an enemy if you block, shield while blocking, regen magicka for you and allies when you kill an enemy...

I'd like some exotics perks that open original and fun gameplay...

I’ve seen progression systems like this in other mmos, I like those because they didn’t necessarily add too much power but was worth investing time. This could be something to add to the CP tree to spread points out. Little things that people won’t refuse. Need more “this or that” options. Right now there’s no real sacrifice.

CatchMeTrolling

The system needs a change

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

We don't need vet system back lol, but I agree CP is a huge problem in this game. I think all the CP percentages need to be lowered. I am tired of moves being nerfed because CP is out of control.

A problem that will happen is the high CP people won't want to lose power. That's the same reason the non CP pvp is not popular. People with less skill need a crutch and don't want any change.

But if they tuned down percentages you can achieve for each area it could improve the life of the game drastically. Before removing it they can try to alter it like that. This way people don't lose their 810cp but it just makes it less effective.

Lowering percentages is one way to go, thought of that but I’m reminded that it would just be another band aid solution. Pretty much what morrowind was. We all see how that turned out, it was temporary because patches to follow brought more sustain, mitigation damage.

Tweaking the content and then tweaking the system slowly is probably the best solution that risks losing minimal players.

Mr_Walker

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Yeah, I think the game would be better without cp, at least in pvp.

If only there were a no-CP campaign....

CatchMeTrolling

The system needs a change

lokulin wrote: »

I'm fairly happy with the way it is but would be open to a change if it was well thought through. Better rewards for achievement hunting might satisfy people's desire for other types of progression besides leveling.

Because of the way CP, sets bonuses, racial passives, skills and passives all interact I think there will ever be a hope of a well balanced game for all players. There are too many places where people can stack race, class, CP and skill buffs. Personally I think the current way item sets, passives, CP and bonuses interact is fundamentally broken and possibly impossible to balance. So, yeah change CP if you want but it won't be the panacea you are hoping for.

I agree that the way things interact in conjunction with each other needs looking into. That’s been one of the biggest issues balance wise. Like the way mitigation and healing works or even weapon damage affecting your heals too. Perhaps, more soft caps can be introduced in other areas of the game.

KaiDynasty

The system needs a change

In my opinion they should rework the cp system and make it to provide a vertical progression and not a horizontal progression.
Right now more cp you have, more you will be tanky, more you will healing, more you will deal damage. Yes you can put all of the cps just in some perk to be full tank / full healer / full dps at once but imo that's not good because as the cp are "spreaded" you can gain more of these attributes (because cps are limited in blue, red, green tree, so you are forced to gain resistances in addition to sustain and damage).
They should spread cp in a way where players aren't forced to put cps in the 3 trees, but if they want to fully go sustain, being able to put all the cps in that direction. This is just a way to change the system.
It is clear that more the cps are, more the differences on builds are less because cps compensate for them, so in a long future, cps will make all just the same thing, and that's not good.

lokulin

Other (Explain)

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

I'm fairly happy with the way it is but would be open to a change if it was well thought through. Better rewards for achievement hunting might satisfy people's desire for other types of progression besides leveling.

Because of the way CP, sets bonuses, racial passives, skills and passives all interact I think there will ever be a hope of a well balanced game for all players. There are too many places where people can stack race, class, CP and skill buffs. Personally I think the current way item sets, passives, CP and bonuses interact is fundamentally broken and possibly impossible to balance. So, yeah change CP if you want but it won't be the panacea you are hoping for.

I agree that the way things interact in conjunction with each other needs looking into. That’s been one of the biggest issues balance wise. Like the way mitigation and healing works or even weapon damage affecting your heals too. Perhaps, more soft caps can be introduced in other areas of the game.

An idle thought I had was that all set bonuses could become named buffs. e.g. first health bonus "minor health", second "major health", third "epic health". That way you couldn't run two health buffing sets and get six health bonuses. You could also add interesting set bonuses that augment class skills to give the buffs that a given class might lack. e.g. you could add a set bonus that mimicked the way igneous shield works every time a sorc cast a ward. This way you could give access to all buffs and debuffs to all classes via skills, sets, CP, race without allowing classes and race to stack certain non-named buffs.

The fly in the ointment for that idea is the ongoing proliferation of proc sets that do some kind of damage that isn't reflected in any class skills. I think ZOS has painted themselves in to a bit of a corner by constantly releasing so many new item sets with each DLC.

CatchMeTrolling

The system needs a change

Mr_Walker wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Yeah, I think the game would be better without cp, at least in pvp.

If only there were a no-CP campaign....

Understand that cp also affects no cp because while CP serves as a “counter” to certain things you don’t get that luxury in no cp. Damage for one is out of control in no cp. You lose stats. Not only that, nerfs like the ones in Morrowind outside of cp (armor nerfs for example) content hurt no cp more.

Kram8ion

Other (Explain)

Most of us have gotten their head around it by now so a change for no apparent reason would just be confusing because you would have to come to the same results as it is
Just make it free

CatchMeTrolling

The system needs a change

lokulin wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

I'm fairly happy with the way it is but would be open to a change if it was well thought through. Better rewards for achievement hunting might satisfy people's desire for other types of progression besides leveling.

Because of the way CP, sets bonuses, racial passives, skills and passives all interact I think there will ever be a hope of a well balanced game for all players. There are too many places where people can stack race, class, CP and skill buffs. Personally I think the current way item sets, passives, CP and bonuses interact is fundamentally broken and possibly impossible to balance. So, yeah change CP if you want but it won't be the panacea you are hoping for.

I agree that the way things interact in conjunction with each other needs looking into. That’s been one of the biggest issues balance wise. Like the way mitigation and healing works or even weapon damage affecting your heals too. Perhaps, more soft caps can be introduced in other areas of the game.

An idle thought I had was that all set bonuses could become named buffs. e.g. first health bonus "minor health", second "major health", third "epic health". That way you couldn't run two health buffing sets and get six health bonuses. You could also add interesting set bonuses that augment class skills to give the buffs that a given class might lack. e.g. you could add a set bonus that mimicked the way igneous shield works every time a sorc cast a ward. This way you could give access to all buffs and debuffs to all classes via skills, sets, CP, race without allowing classes and race to stack certain non-named buffs.

The fly in the ointment for that idea is the ongoing proliferation of proc sets that do some kind of damage that isn't reflected in any class skills. I think ZOS has painted themselves in to a bit of a corner by constantly releasing so many new item sets with each DLC.

I like that idea. That way people couldn’t stack too much into anything because of the cap. Only thing is how would it play out in pve, what would be allowed to stack if any at all?

CatchMeTrolling

The system needs a change

KaiDynasty wrote: »

In my opinion they should rework the cp system and make it to provide a vertical progression and not a horizontal progression.
Right now more cp you have, more you will be tanky, more you will healing, more you will deal damage. Yes you can put all of the cps just in some perk to be full tank / full healer / full dps at once but imo that's not good because as the cp are "spreaded" you can gain more of these attributes (because cps are limited in blue, red, green tree, so you are forced to gain resistances in addition to sustain and damage).
They should spread cp in a way where players aren't forced to put cps in the 3 trees, but if they want to fully go sustain, being able to put all the cps in that direction. This is just a way to change the system.
It is clear that more the cps are, more the differences on builds are less because cps compensate for them, so in a long future, cps will make all just the same thing, and that's not good.

A concept mmos typically use. This stops players from being jack of all trades in a sense, that’s the direction it’ll ultimately go, again. I was for something like this early on. Damage, mitigation, sustain and healing for example should probably be in the same tree. Or like you said remove the trees and add a point system where you are force to invest in multiple areas but not all. So you can be good at damage and healing but subpar when it comes to mitigation.

Hotdog_23

The System is fine as it is

Personally I like the cp system. The game is currently balanced around it. So changing it would require a lot of changes and we all know how the community takes this kind of changes and the amount of time it takes for ZOS to balance certain skills with the amount of time it takes to watch and learn to see how the changes really affect the game.

People talk about how a power creep is coming from the cp system and while I think this true from a point. With every major update or quarter new content release. They release new more powerful sets that become the new BIS is certain situations.

The added 30 cp points every quarter is not really that much and does add a little progression. I think they did address this some when that changed the cp system to diminished returns with the more you add to each skill the less you get.