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FYI: Updates on Class Rep Program

ZOS_GinaBruno
ZOS_GinaBruno
Community Manager
Hello everyone! We’d like to give you an update on how the Class Representative Program has been going from our perspective, and some updates on the program moving forward.

We’ve had several voice calls with the Class Reps for them to present combat-related issues that were important to the community, and we’ve found all of these meetings to be immensely helpful and informative. While you may not have always seen changes in patches that you were hoping for, this information is one piece among many that help us in making decisions for the immediate and distant future. We still plan to have these calls at least once a quarter, or more as needed, and provide everyone with the meeting notes.

We’d also like to take this time to talk about some changes we’re making to the program. Effective immediately, all Class Reps have signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) to help facilitate more transparency between them and the development team, and allow us to have a more open dialogue more regularly. This means that they will need to be very selective about what questions of yours they can answer. However, we still want to make sure everyone is aware of what we’re discussing. As mentioned previously, we still plan to publish any meeting notes from voice calls we have, and we’re talking about other ways we can keep everyone in the loop. More on that to come as we nail down the exact details.

Just as a reminder, the job of the Class Reps is to act as advisors, helping to surface issues important to you all and representing the community’s perspective during discussions with the development team. While we greatly value their input, decisions regarding the direction of the game still fall squarely on the development team. This change to the program is intended to allow the Class Reps to more effectively fulfill their role as advisors.
Gina Bruno
Senior Community Manager
Dev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter | My Twitter
Staff Post
  • Turelus
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    This sounds like a great step forward with the program.

    Having played other games where reps were under NDA I'm hoping it allows for the same type of frank and open discussions between developers and reps.

    Thanks for the update. :smile:
    Edited by Turelus on October 29, 2018 3:35PM
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • MartiniDaniels
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    NerfSorc :blush:
  • Moloch1514
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    Sounds like this program is going to where the Monthly Combat updates went.
    PC-NA
  • VaxtinTheWolf
    VaxtinTheWolf
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    /pray
    || AD - Rah'Jiin Lv50 Khajiit Nightblade (Damage) || EP - Generic Argonian Lv50 Argonian Nightblade (Tank) || DC - Zinkotsu Lv50 Breton Nightblade (Healer) ||
    || DC - Ja'Kiro Feral-Heart Lv50 Khajiit Dragonknight (Damage) || EP - VaxtinTheWolf Lv50 Redguard Templar (Tank) || AD - Velik Iranis Lv50 Dark Elf Sorcerer (Tank ) ||
    || EP - Einvarg The Frozen Lv50 Nord Warden (Tank/Healer) || EP - Keem-Ja Lv4 Argonian Necromancer (Healer/Tank) ||
    PC - North American Server (Champion 1300+)
  • qbit
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    I wouldn’t let my attorney touch that with a ten foot pole. ZOS is the last company I’d sign an NDA with. Wow. Best of luck, guys; and try not to get sued.
  • Royaji
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    qbit wrote: »
    I wouldn’t let my attorney touch that with a ten foot pole. ZOS is the last company I’d sign an NDA with. Wow. Best of luck, guys; and try not to get sued.

    I don't remember there being any major issues when people signed the NDA fro Morrowind PTS. So they are probably fine.
  • Turelus
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    NDA means ZOS can actually talk about updates long before they're due.

    Reps will be able to know what skill lines or classes are in the works months before ZOS announce them, know what is in the works for any upcoming combat changes being conceptualised but not ready to be announced etc.

    It's a good thing if people want the reps to have more input in things, otherwise they have to wait for everything to be public knowledge. We saw how well that worked with the shield changes coming out of nowhere for them.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Chicharron
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    Just as a reminder, the job of the Class Reps is to act as advisors.

    If it's JOB, I imagine they're paid.

    I thought they did it for free, i doubted their mental health by doing all that effort for free.
  • Checkmath
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    Chicharron wrote: »
    Just as a reminder, the job of the Class Reps is to act as advisors.

    If it's JOB, I imagine they're paid.

    I thought they did it for free, i doubted their mental health by doing all that effort for free.

    We will not get paid.
    Edited by Checkmath on October 29, 2018 4:00PM
  • RedRook
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    Ohhh wow you must know you're putting them right into the line of fire with this, even worse than they were. I sincerely hope it's worth it.

    Well. Good luck, reps.
  • ezio45
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    hopefully they just let the reps give imput now.


    and pay them........ they should be paid
  • Cryptical
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    Chicharron wrote: »
    Just as a reminder, the job of the Class Reps is to act as advisors.

    If it's JOB, I imagine they're paid.

    I thought they did it for free, i doubted their mental health by doing all that effort for free.

    We will get paid in snark and flames.

    Fixed that for you.
    Xbox NA
  • technohic
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    Well I can see the need for an NDA assuming the dev's need to share privy info with them to move the conversation forward; but I appreciate the reps for just volunteering their time, not only to do the calls but also gather the information and communicate with the community all while now having to be careful with what they say.

    A lot of responsibility for free.
  • jypcy
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    Yeah, this sounds like a good thing tbh. To steal the language from another thread:
    Biro123 wrote: »
    Duukar wrote: »
    They LET it go live when warned by players and class team leads on the PTS that it was terrible...

    Why did they make us go through this?

    I laugh at all the fools who spent mats golding out torugs pieces. Serves them right!

    The thing is, though - the turnaround time for changes is higher than the time between the PTS cycles. I'm convinced that whatever goes into each PTS patch cycle is only stuff that was either planned for and built prior to the start of that PTS - or direct bugfixes which don't change their intended direction - just fix where it is broken (don't confuse broken execution with broken direction).

    Class reps can likely give more input on direction if they’re under NDA. Not to suggest that what class reps say will go— it’s still the devs’ decision on changes— but I suspect that the relatively short length of time between when reps could know about upcoming changes and when those changes would hit the PTS was preventing the community’s input, communicated by the reps, from having much effect because the direction was already fairly well set by the time devs could discuss it with reps. I don’t know ZOS’ policies, but I’m gusssing that they’re not keen to pay devs to write code that they later have to pay them again only to revert the same code to how it was before because some community members thought it’d be “too op,” hence so many changes, even after massive backlash on the forums, still make it to live (with perhaps some value adjustments).

    Take the alleged upcoming sorc offensive buff mentioned in the Sep. 25th meeting notes (iirc) for example. The notes mention that devs were making changes to the class’ defensive capabilities because they were looking at buffing their damage capabilities in the future. But at the time, they couldn’t discuss those proposed changes with the reps to get their feedback. Without an NDA, chances are most of the changes and code would already be thought out and implemented by the time the reps could hear about it so feedback would likely have little effect.

    With an NDA, the reps who are engaging with the community and playing the game can hear about ideas before the direction is set and communicate their thoughts on the community’s likely opinion of them. With this, I’d assume, the devs can get a community perspective on changes before they even write the code, and so the community’s feedback can have a greater effect than it can now.
    Edited by jypcy on October 29, 2018 4:52PM
  • Chicharron
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    Chicharron wrote: »
    Just as a reminder, the job of the Class Reps is to act as advisors.

    If it's JOB, I imagine they're paid.

    I thought they did it for free, i doubted their mental health by doing all that effort for free.

    We will not get paid.

    very sad to hear that, at least give them ESO+ free ZOS , shame on you.
  • VaranisArano
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    I'm glad to see ZOS taking steps to address the concerns of the community with regards to recent updates and thr Class Reps, namely, the impression that the Class Reps really don't have any say in how the game actually gets developed.

    Now, ZOS has made it crystal clear that the Class Reps are advisors, now more knowledgable advisors, but still advisors. Ultimately, ZOS has made it clear what many of us already knew: the Developers do what they want according to their own visiom for the game.

    Players, manage your expectations accordingly.
  • VaranisArano
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    RedRook wrote: »
    Ohhh wow you must know you're putting them right into the line of fire with this, even worse than they were. I sincerely hope it's worth it.

    Well. Good luck, reps.

    I strongly suspect this is intended to protect the Reps.

    ZOS just made it clear to all the people who blame the Class Reps that the Dev Team respects and values the Class Reps but they have their own vision for the game and makes no guarantees they'll listen the Reps. The Devs make all final decisions and develop the game accordingly to their own priorities.

    Now, whether the intention works out, we'll see. I hope so, because the Class Reps got put through the wringer over Murkmire.
  • ak_pvp
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    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5574913#Comment_5574913
    The reps have been put under an NDA. This means that they will be less able to communicate potential changes to us like they did during murkmire. This could be both good or bad, best to voice your opinion.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • RedRook
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    RedRook wrote: »
    Ohhh wow you must know you're putting them right into the line of fire with this, even worse than they were. I sincerely hope it's worth it.

    Well. Good luck, reps.

    I strongly suspect this is intended to protect the Reps.

    ZOS just made it clear to all the people who blame the Class Reps that the Dev Team respects and values the Class Reps but they have their own vision for the game and makes no guarantees they'll listen the Reps. The Devs make all final decisions and develop the game accordingly to their own priorities.

    Now, whether the intention works out, we'll see. I hope so, because the Class Reps got put through the wringer over Murkmire.

    Whether it is or not, I think you can see as well as I can that it won't, just by reading this thread.

    How much that matters to the reps - or the devs - couldn't say.
  • LonePirate
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    Effective immediately, all Class Reps have signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) to help facilitate more transparency between them and the development team, and allow us to have a more open dialogue more regularly.

    Gina must be seeking a job at the White House if she is going to release words like those above. I don’t think there has ever been an NDA in all of human history that has ever fostered more transparency and communication than before the NDA went into effect. [snip]

    [Edited for non-constructive commentary]

    Edited by ZOS_Mika on October 29, 2018 5:53PM
  • Turelus
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5574913#Comment_5574913
    The reps have been put under an NDA. This means that they will be less able to communicate potential changes to us like they did during murkmire. This could be both good or bad, best to voice your opinion.
    They can still get information, they just need to be more sneaky about it.
    Rather than saying "ZOS is thinking about X" they could say "I considered X in my ideas about how to fix it".

    Drop it in casual forums or Discord discussion, see what people say. Depends how restrictive the NDA is and what ZOS will allow.

    EVE Onlines CSM will be a good example of how this will work under NDA.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Jake1576
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    Looks like it's a bad time to be a class rep kind of sucks if one says something to anyone and that information gets out the reps could get sued f that that would be to stressful doing all that work and not getting payed and if you accidentally say something to a friend or anyone and it gets out you could be sued good luck reps you got a lot of patience i couldn't do it i would just drop out of the situation if i was you guys this nda just seems like to much trouble to deal with all you guys was suppose to be was a voice for the community to relay things back to zos for us this seems like more then you guys bargained for leave it to zos to ruin something and make things more difficult
    Edited by Jake1576 on October 29, 2018 5:34PM
  • Liofa
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    You guys remember the cast time on shields idea? Now we will be able to say "dude stop" before something similar happens before it actually happens. That's pretty much all this NDA will may or may not provide for class reps.
  • SirAndy
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    @ZOS_GinaBruno
    Just please don't treat their input the same way you treated us Psijic beta testers when we were under NDA.

    Meaning, don't ignore all their input and then implement changes that none of the class reps have ever heard of, sidestepping all their effort and leaving them wondering why they even bother ...
    dry.gif


    Edited by SirAndy on October 29, 2018 5:49PM
  • GreenHere
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    The Class Reps having insight into changes that are further up the development pipeline means that they can potentially have more time/influence on things before they're in the (apparently) "too late" stage that the stupidity we see on the PTS often is.

    They might not be able to talk with us about what they know is coming (which is perfectly understandable, in my view), BUT they'll at least be a bigger part of the discussion when ZOS is formulating future plans. This is a good thing, given how well-received ZOS' internal plans seem to be these days.

    Sad news that the Reps don't get paid, though... I tend to think they deserve a paycheck more than some of the actual fools working on the game. :P
  • ZOS_Mika
    ZOS_Mika
    admin
    We have removed a few unnecessary and bashing comments from this thread. Please ensure that the discussion remains civil and constructive. Thank you for your understanding.
    The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
    Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site
    Staff Post
  • ak_pvp
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    Liofa wrote: »
    You guys remember the cast time on shields idea? Now we will be able to say "dude stop" before something similar happens before it actually happens. That's pretty much all this NDA will may or may not provide for class reps.

    Or... how about we all say "dude stop." and they actually tell us ***.

    We got to know about their brainstorming of the shields, and a lot of reps were unhappy including you, cause they didn't listen to what you said about PvE/P. The screenshots are in the discords. As such, players were unhappy.
    They won't want a repeat of that.
    They act stupid now and you are unhappy with it, what could they do? Its under NDA. Great, now you might be able to shoot it down, but maybe you won't. And even if you do, the majority of the playerbase won't get a say. Hardly representative.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Alcast
    Alcast
    Class Representative
    PouletRico wrote: »
    I am against anything that gives a subsection of gamers an edge above the rest. Class reps are first and foremost players, playing the game with their friends. They will absolutely 100% share any relevant heads up info with their buddies on discord et al, NDA or not.

    Since we have a known PvP exploiter amongst the EU Reps (just check the initial Class Rep thread for plenty of comments of very well known community members in regards to that), I come to think this is the worst decision ever made.

    I more of a optimistic person, I tend to trust such programs, and so far, the reps have done a pretty good job, but I have to agree with Mojo on this one. Reps are players, some of them are already very good players (Hodor and stuff), this is giving them an unfair advantage on the rest of community. And I'm not even talking about exploits or PvP.

    Are you suggesting I am leaking stuff?
    https://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
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  • jypcy
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Liofa wrote: »
    You guys remember the cast time on shields idea? Now we will be able to say "dude stop" before something similar happens before it actually happens. That's pretty much all this NDA will may or may not provide for class reps.

    Or... how about we all say "dude stop." and they actually tell us ***.

    We got to know about their brainstorming of the shields, and a lot of reps were unhappy including you, cause they didn't listen to what you said about PvE/P. The screenshots are in the discords. As such, players were unhappy.
    They won't want a repeat of that.
    They act stupid now and you are unhappy with it, what could they do? Its under NDA. Great, now you might be able to shoot it down, but maybe you won't. And even if you do, the majority of the playerbase won't get a say. Hardly representative.

    The reps would still be collecting general feedback from the community. When they get to talk about future direction with the devs, they can then refer to that feedback to provide the community’s thoughts about it in general when it’s still in early stages. They can’t say “hey we polled the playerbase and people hate shield casttimes so you should revert the change,” but they can say “hey we’ve learned that players often use shields reactively to save themselves after taking a big hit, which would be harder to do with a casttime and so we don’t think this is the right change.” Still up to the devs whether they want to act based on the feedback they receive, but I think this stands to up the effectiveness of the program and still be representative.
  • Valykc
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    Terrible decision, class reps were the only voice of communication we had. Since you can’t reply back to forum threads for whatever reason. The only reason we knew that the Single Target Cast time ability bug was being looked into was because a class rep mentioned so, not because any of you devs cared to say you “were looking into it” despite at least 4 forum threads on the topic. You need to outline what is covered by the NDA and what’s not. Is it all communication, or just future changes info? If we have another bug and a player wants to know if it is being addressed, can a class rep disclose that? If not then this is stupid, and another nail in your coffin. Congrats on finding more ways to isolate your player base from needed communication.
    Edited by Valykc on October 29, 2018 7:23PM
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