Urvoth wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RobGarrett I implore you guys to read this thread. Please. I was going to make the exact same thread earlier today, but decided not to because I simply couldn't put it into words, but OP has put it perfectly.

The "chisel versus hammer" approach you guys are taking is killing the game for its core audience. This patch has been a prime example within a whole list of prime examples of how bad this approach to balancing can be.

We saw it with Morrowind, where sustain was going unchecked in PVP, primarily due to CP, but rather than looking at the fine details of the problem, you guys decided to just nerf sustain outright and the game is still trying to recover from that to this day.

We saw it with Horns of the Reach, where one specific build on the PTS was slightly overperforming (stacking into crit with Mother's Sorrow and Iceheart), and the community even guided you on what to do to bring this build back in line (slightly nerf the 5-piece bonus of Mother's Sorrow), but you guys decided to nerf crit outright, pushing everybody back to the Morrowind meta.

We saw it with Summerset and subsequent patches, including Wolfhunter, where one of Sorcerer's skills was overperforming, and rather than taking a step back and finding what exactly is making it so strong (granted the community couldn't come to that consensus either), you guys decided to pile nerf on top of nerf on top of nerf onto this skill, making it practically useless, all in the name of removing the stun from frags.

We've seen it many times over in the other patches since One Tamriel, though I can't speak to patches prior to that as I wasn't playing the game back then.

We're still seeing it now, arguably as bad as Morrowind. You guys seem adamant that shields are overperforming in both PVE and PVP, though rather than adding a few nerfs (namely the crit nerf and the resistance buff) then seeing how shields play, you guys decided to hit shields with a huge nerf via a cast time. It is good that you reverted it, and the new health scaling nerf can be argued for being better or worse, but the very fact that you guys piled 3 big nerfs onto them, before even letting players test the impact of them, is the problem.

And we're seeing it crystal clear in these latest patch notes with mobility. Most people come to the general consensus that what is overperforming is the interaction between Swift, Major Expedition, and Forward Momentum, and at the heart, it is Forward Momentum causing this interaction to be way too strong. The counter to speed is snares and immobilisations, but through Forward Momentum, somebody can gain complete snare immunity for 8 seconds with 100% uptime. But instead of just adjusting Forward Momentum, maybe even bringing Swift down a little, you guys decide to nerf mobility across the board, in places it really didn't need to be nerfed.

What makes this so much more infuriating is that you guys are so close to achieving great balance most of the time, but you screw the pooch by overnerfing. Rather than going at a problem with a nerf scalpel, you go at it with a nerf sledgehammer, consequently destroying the patient, the table, and the floor. This has been proven time and time again, and will continue to happen until you guys do something about it.

If you need help identifying issues, why not talk to the community about it. Come onto the forums and ask us what the problem is with x, then monitor responses. Or, hell, why not use the class reps program you guys have going. Before even planning out changes, let alone doing them, ask the reps what the problem is with x, and what they suggest doing about it.

To sum it up, please, just forego the "chisel versus hammer" approach you guys have towards balancing. It is not working, it has never worked, and only serves to drive players away.

Technically that's where we thought us class reps would come in as intermediaries, but it hasn't worked that way because they told us specifically that they do not want suggestions, but pain points.

We tell them exactly and specifically what needs addressing (in this case it was forward momentum and swift), but this was totally unexpected. Same for the shield thing. People have been telling us that we did a great job and many changes this patch are very much in line with the pain points we presented, but then they put other changes in that completely overshadow the work we do. It's frustrating, really.

The disparity between the class rep notes and the actual patch notes is insane. Every time I read the class rep meeting notes, I agree with pretty much everything and feel like the game is going in a good direction, but nearly every time ZOS posts pts notes(regarding balance changes), I feel pretty much the exact opposite.

It's really unfortunate that they won't let you make suggestions for how skills/classes should operate and what could be done to fix issues. Most of what you guys have said regarding ability changes has been pretty on point imo. ZOS is wasting an extremely valuable resource by not fully utilizing the reps.

At the very least, they should be running proposed changes by the reps before actually making them.

aeowulf wrote: »

Honestly I would of expected these kinds of changes (Morrowind sustain and these shield etc) within the first 6 months or so, not 4 years down the line.

Maryal wrote: »

Blanket over-nerfs occur when the qq'ers go into a feeding frenzy at the behest of a vocal few who throw chum into the shark infested waters we call 'the forums.'

These vocal few think they are right, but often they aren't. It's easy for them to look on the surface and identify symptoms as 'problems' when in actuality the real problem (root cause) is buried several layers deep.

Solutions only work when the root problem is correctly identified. In this case, the root problem was NOT correctly identified, so the solution imposed will not fix the problem.

ResTandRespeC wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Aside from some changes coming in Nerfmire, I like ESO mechanics now much more than, say, 3 years ago. Despite some forumer opinions, I feel it is more balanced, different traits are used more, different mundus stones, everyone can combine different sets together with monster sets. Everything is more or less craftable and can be transmuted, even jewelry. CP points are now spread on many branches. You don't always have to be meta to have fun and be viable in PVP. Changes in Cyrodiil are VERY exciting indeed. Speaking of PVPers, do note that many are also BG-ing.

So, in my opinion, ZOS is doing quite well, considering how complex and big this game is. Are they always right? Hell no. Are they stubborn and sometimes having their heads in the sand? Yes.

Nevertheless, I like your post and a metaphor with the hammer and the chisel, so +1 for me.

But those changes aren't even choices made by the dev team by rather reluctant changes patches after they were suggested by the player base.

20% damage buff back to frags? Player suggested patch of change
Nerf Rune Cage? Player suggested patch of change
Morrowind Sustain Rollbacks? Player suggested patch of change
Defile Accessibility nerfs? Player suggested-arguably change only resulted due to rep input
Repentance change to allow multiple templars to use same body? Player suggested patch of change
Templar Rune Uptime buffs? Player suggested

The player base has literally forecasted all the positive changes that have occurred. They were often done prior or during the patch that the mechanics became an issue and it is often the same subset of players/community that suggests these changes.

ZoS only does a good job when it listens to people that actually play the game.

IAVITNI wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Aside from some changes coming in Nerfmire, I like ESO mechanics now much more than, say, 3 years ago. Despite some forumer opinions, I feel it is more balanced, different traits are used more, different mundus stones, everyone can combine different sets together with monster sets. Everything is more or less craftable and can be transmuted, even jewelry. CP points are now spread on many branches. You don't always have to be meta to have fun and be viable in PVP. Changes in Cyrodiil are VERY exciting indeed. Speaking of PVPers, do note that many are also BG-ing.

So, in my opinion, ZOS is doing quite well, considering how complex and big this game is. Are they always right? Hell no. Are they stubborn and sometimes having their heads in the sand? Yes.

Nevertheless, I like your post and a metaphor with the hammer and the chisel, so +1 for me.

But those changes aren't even choices made by the dev team by rather reluctant changes patches after they were suggested by the player base.

20% damage buff back to frags? Player suggested patch of change
Nerf Rune Cage? Player suggested patch of change
Morrowind Sustain Rollbacks? Player suggested patch of change
Defile Accessibility nerfs? Player suggested-arguably change only resulted due to rep input
Repentance change to allow multiple templars to use same body? Player suggested patch of change
Templar Rune Uptime buffs? Player suggested

The player base has literally forecasted all the positive changes that have occurred. They were often done prior or during the patch that the mechanics became an issue and it is often the same subset of players/community that suggests these changes.

ZoS only does a good job when it listens to people that actually play the game.

It just sucks that they are so stubborn that they have to wait several patches before undoing a nerf or implementing a needed change that is contrary to their current ideology of the game.

CyrusArya wrote: »

A sculpture in its late stages is perfected with a chisel, not a hammer. Art is made with the fine strokes, attention to detail. Not just throwing the book at a canvas and seeing what sticks. ESO is now in its 4th year. The wonderful classes and play styles you have created are long established and cemented. The player base has grown to love and adore, and invest a ton of time (and money) into the classes YOU created that WE learned, practiced, and mastered. But the decisions and directions you have taken these last few weeks are very discouraging and do not inspire any faith or hope that the investment made by the players (in a pvp context) is safe at all. There are many angles I could approach this, many topics I could discuss. But today's changes to mobility really are a shining example of everything I find to be wrong with your development philosophy and trends.

From what I gather, you were informed that heavy stamina builds are over performing because they have incredible damage and survivability while sacrificing no mobility (in fact having the best mobility). And this issue is obvious to anybody who actually plays the game, and has been for a long time. How do you respond to this? With a knee jerk and impulsive nerf to the very concept of mobility itself. The fact that you would strip mobility tools from magicka classes is a case-in-point example of why experienced PvPers believe that you guys truly don't understand your own game, and have little faith in your development team. Who has ever complained about magicka mobility? What needed to happen was acute and careful changes to how heavy armor stamina builds operate. A nerf to forward momentum and the p2w swift trait you added in Summerset would have accomplished this. Instead, you decided to take the hammer to all mobility. Which is very distressing for those of us who prefer to play solo/small scale or those of us who play builds that rely on mobility without abusing the game's mechanics like heavy armor stam has for a year now. For example, magicka classes or medium armor stam builds that choose to not use a bow. And that right there is the problem. Swinging a sledgehammer at your sculpture and leaving the player base vulnerable to the unintended collateral damage from your reckless, callous movements.

There were some good changes this patch, sure. But the bad changes are indicative of a very deep seated and systematic failure in the system. You guys do not think things through comprehensively nor do you balance in a precise, surgical way. Instead you opt for sloppy and ill conceived stabs at balance that end up doing more harm than good. Another shining example of this is the change to damage shields, where you tried to cram in PvE and PvP nerfs at the same time without properly appraising the consequences. I do not have to make an argument on that matter tho because you have already conceded the error and made an attempt to redeem the mistake. And besides, I'm pretty sure you've heard enough of it. But here's the thing: why should it take a massive community uproar and backlash for you guys to see the flaw in balancing with a hammer when ESO just needs the little blemishes to be chiseled out? Continuously you nerf our classes to compensate for power creep coming from other sources, you homogenize the unique flairs that made us attracted to certain play styles, you miss your mark when it comes to balancing- and we have to suffer the consequences. Time and time again.

But actually, the thing is, we don't. The PvP community is already a shadow of its former self. Id venture to say that over half of the skilled and enthusiastic player base from 2 years ago has abandoned the game, let alone from launch. The game feels more and more hollow by the day, Cyrodiil more akin to a ghost town than the the bustling and eventful battlefield we fell in love with years ago. If you wish for those of us who care about skilled and complex game play to completely abandon ship- by all means continue down this path. Keep introducing sets like Soldier of Anguish, after seeing the backlash from sloads not 3 months ago (after not one but TWO proc set disaster eras). Keep gutting solo and small scale pvp while acquiescing to, or even empowering, zerg play. Keep unnecessarily stripping our classes of the tools they need to function. Or, consider the feedback you are receiving loudly and clearly and reach for the chisel and not the hammer.

Signed,

A disillusioned former patron.

P.S. This isn't an "I'm quitting" thread, don't censor me bro.

Rianai wrote: »

This thread shall not be lost in the depths of the forum.

Derra wrote: »

The healing changes brought up by @ZOS_BrianWheeler in the combat and ability category is a perfect reason to reply to this topic again.

Please read the original topic and realize that you´re doing it once again.

Healing is not overperforming across the board.

Stamden, Warden and Stamdk healing on high weapondmg (or HP in case of warden) builds is too high.
Twilight matriarch healing is too high.
All crosshealing is too high.

Healing on a Stamblade or a magDK (defensive healing) in offensive setups - especially in noCP? Hardly worth mentioning and definetly not overperforming.

Across the board healing reduction of 20% (that´s what it is - going from 50% to 40% healing done is a 20% redduction of healing values you see right now on live) will break a lot of builds and classes outright - because healing is not unviversially overperforming (and the ramifications on noCP are actually horrible - and i don´t even play that gamemode).

Please reconsider this change and replace it with something that adresses the actual problems:
Tune down crosshealing (reduce all non selfheals via battlespirit more).
Tune down the skills and classes mentioned above individually instead of nerfing everyone across the board again.