The Chisel vs The Hammer: An Open Letter to ZOS
CyrusArya
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A sculpture in its late stages is perfected with a chisel, not a hammer. Art is made with the fine strokes, attention to detail. Not just throwing the book at a canvas and seeing what sticks. ESO is now in its 4th year. The wonderful classes and play styles you have created are long established and cemented. The player base has grown to love and adore, and invest a ton of time (and money) into the classes YOU created that WE learned, practiced, and mastered. But the decisions and directions you have taken these last few weeks are very discouraging and do not inspire any faith or hope that the investment made by the players (in a pvp context) is safe at all. There are many angles I could approach this, many topics I could discuss. But today's changes to mobility really are a shining example of everything I find to be wrong with your development philosophy and trends.
From what I gather, you were informed that heavy stamina builds are over performing because they have incredible damage and survivability while sacrificing no mobility (in fact having the best mobility). And this issue is obvious to anybody who actually plays the game, and has been for a long time. How do you respond to this? With a knee jerk and impulsive nerf to the very concept of mobility itself. The fact that you would strip mobility tools from magicka classes is a case-in-point example of why experienced PvPers believe that you guys truly don't understand your own game, and have little faith in your development team. Who has ever complained about magicka mobility? What needed to happen was acute and careful changes to how heavy armor stamina builds operate. A nerf to forward momentum and the p2w swift trait you added in Summerset would have accomplished this. Instead, you decided to take the hammer to all mobility. Which is very distressing for those of us who prefer to play solo/small scale or those of us who play builds that rely on mobility without abusing the game's mechanics like heavy armor stam has for a year now. For example, magicka classes or medium armor stam builds that choose to not use a bow. And that right there is the problem. Swinging a sledgehammer at your sculpture and leaving the player base vulnerable to the unintended collateral damage from your reckless, callous movements.
There were some good changes this patch, sure. But the bad changes are indicative of a very deep seated and systematic failure in the system. You guys do not think things through comprehensively nor do you balance in a precise, surgical way. Instead you opt for sloppy and ill conceived stabs at balance that end up doing more harm than good. Another shining example of this is the change to damage shields, where you tried to cram in PvE and PvP nerfs at the same time without properly appraising the consequences. I do not have to make an argument on that matter tho because you have already conceded the error and made an attempt to redeem the mistake. And besides, I'm pretty sure you've heard enough of it. But here's the thing: why should it take a massive community uproar and backlash for you guys to see the flaw in balancing with a hammer when ESO just needs the little blemishes to be chiseled out? Continuously you nerf our classes to compensate for power creep coming from other sources, you homogenize the unique flairs that made us attracted to certain play styles, you miss your mark when it comes to balancing- and we have to suffer the consequences. Time and time again.
But actually, the thing is, we don't. The PvP community is already a shadow of its former self. Id venture to say that over half of the skilled and enthusiastic player base from 2 years ago has abandoned the game, let alone from launch. The game feels more and more hollow by the day, Cyrodiil more akin to a ghost town than the the bustling and eventful battlefield we fell in love with years ago. If you wish for those of us who care about skilled and complex game play to completely abandon ship- by all means continue down this path. Keep introducing sets like Soldier of Anguish, after seeing the backlash from sloads not 3 months ago (after not one but TWO proc set disaster eras). Keep gutting solo and small scale pvp while acquiescing to, or even empowering, zerg play. Keep unnecessarily stripping our classes of the tools they need to function. Or, consider the feedback you are receiving loudly and clearly and reach for the chisel and not the hammer.
Signed,
A disillusioned former patron.
P.S. This isn't an "I'm quitting" thread, don't censor me bro.
From what I gather, you were informed that heavy stamina builds are over performing because they have incredible damage and survivability while sacrificing no mobility (in fact having the best mobility). And this issue is obvious to anybody who actually plays the game, and has been for a long time. How do you respond to this? With a knee jerk and impulsive nerf to the very concept of mobility itself. The fact that you would strip mobility tools from magicka classes is a case-in-point example of why experienced PvPers believe that you guys truly don't understand your own game, and have little faith in your development team. Who has ever complained about magicka mobility? What needed to happen was acute and careful changes to how heavy armor stamina builds operate. A nerf to forward momentum and the p2w swift trait you added in Summerset would have accomplished this. Instead, you decided to take the hammer to all mobility. Which is very distressing for those of us who prefer to play solo/small scale or those of us who play builds that rely on mobility without abusing the game's mechanics like heavy armor stam has for a year now. For example, magicka classes or medium armor stam builds that choose to not use a bow. And that right there is the problem. Swinging a sledgehammer at your sculpture and leaving the player base vulnerable to the unintended collateral damage from your reckless, callous movements.
There were some good changes this patch, sure. But the bad changes are indicative of a very deep seated and systematic failure in the system. You guys do not think things through comprehensively nor do you balance in a precise, surgical way. Instead you opt for sloppy and ill conceived stabs at balance that end up doing more harm than good. Another shining example of this is the change to damage shields, where you tried to cram in PvE and PvP nerfs at the same time without properly appraising the consequences. I do not have to make an argument on that matter tho because you have already conceded the error and made an attempt to redeem the mistake. And besides, I'm pretty sure you've heard enough of it. But here's the thing: why should it take a massive community uproar and backlash for you guys to see the flaw in balancing with a hammer when ESO just needs the little blemishes to be chiseled out? Continuously you nerf our classes to compensate for power creep coming from other sources, you homogenize the unique flairs that made us attracted to certain play styles, you miss your mark when it comes to balancing- and we have to suffer the consequences. Time and time again.
But actually, the thing is, we don't. The PvP community is already a shadow of its former self. Id venture to say that over half of the skilled and enthusiastic player base from 2 years ago has abandoned the game, let alone from launch. The game feels more and more hollow by the day, Cyrodiil more akin to a ghost town than the the bustling and eventful battlefield we fell in love with years ago. If you wish for those of us who care about skilled and complex game play to completely abandon ship- by all means continue down this path. Keep introducing sets like Soldier of Anguish, after seeing the backlash from sloads not 3 months ago (after not one but TWO proc set disaster eras). Keep gutting solo and small scale pvp while acquiescing to, or even empowering, zerg play. Keep unnecessarily stripping our classes of the tools they need to function. Or, consider the feedback you are receiving loudly and clearly and reach for the chisel and not the hammer.
Signed,
A disillusioned former patron.
P.S. This isn't an "I'm quitting" thread, don't censor me bro.
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Neloth290✭✭✭Nothing to add. I agree with all stated above. Well put.Ps4 Eu Wood Elf Stamplar AR 41
Breton Magblade AR 27
High Elf Mag Sorc AR 25
Redguard Stam Dk AR 22
Breton Magden AR 23
1100cp
Pc Eu
Argonian Magblade AR 14
325cp
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOXNPN0EreUScYN6QfmHcow30 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Good post. +1I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.10 -
killahsin✭✭✭/signed and if ZoS wants to see my creds they can verify i left 2 years ago and came back this month for the bridges and milegates changes. Not looking good though when im seeing all these nerfs constantly instead of adding interesting counter mechanics. ZoS doesn't seem to understand why gamers make metas and why nerfing metas instead of adding counter-metas is destabilizing to their product and end users. Constant disenfranchisement is never a good design philosophy.24 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ERIK:HE was lucky...
(to Sven's dad)
Sit there.
SNORRI:You can't have Sven's father sitting next to Sven. They'll argue the whole time.
ERIK:That's true.
(to Sven)YOU'D better sit there.
(to Sven's dad)You there, and Ornulf there.
SNORRI:Now you've got all the big ones on one side.
Erik looks around. It is true that all the tall burly ones are on one side.
ERIK:All right, you go there. You here...
Sven's dad and Ornulf swap places.
SVEN'S DAD:Ohh! I wanted to sit next to Leif.
ERIK:Shut up. You there. You there and you there.
Ivar and Ornulf swap places. Erik surveys this re-arrangement.
ERIK:That's better.
SNORRI:Now you've got all the ones with beards on one side and all the moustaches on the other.
it's what I think of when people make comments about ZOS' decions8 -
Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nicely put.
Good song. I'm more partial to "Pumps and a Bump" myself."If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."2 -
Lieblingsjunge✭✭✭✭✭
✭RIP magicka mobility that I learnt to enjoy this patch. RIP magplar without mist form. Back to turtling it is!Ignorance is the greatest weapon of tyranny.
PC - EU.
Lieblingsjunge(AD) - Racechanged Argonian :< | AR 50 - No double AP or Bleakers involved |
Sits-On-Cacti(DC) - Problem?
Fail-With-Tail(AD) - Healing Springs-spammer :<
Tiny Liebs(EP) - Very Tiny. Also heals.
Lieblingsmädchen(DC) - Magplar is love.
The Dominàtrix(AD) - Chains, whip, whip, whip.
Fluffy Furball Kitten(DC) - Kittycat, meow.
Your Face(EP) - People make bad jokes about my name =(
Liebs-With-Trees(AD) - Male argo with a big tail :>
Officer/Sandwitch of Zerg Squad
My title: The Maneater, Destroyer of Maneuvers, Bane of Potatoes, she who devours them, The Black Hole, the humorless, first of her name.10 -
Myux✭✭✭to be fair they did go for the gradual option with some of the changes this PTS version, like impreg and swift. and, drama aisde, i do agree small and gradual changes are much healthier for the game, and if there were small balance patches every 2 or 3 weeks inbetween DLC patches it would help the game out SIGNIFICANTLY. take it slow, if ur gonna overhaul something be sure to make sure everyone (or most everyone) is ok with it!rfennell_ESO wrote: »ERIK:HE was lucky...
(to Sven's dad)
Sit there.
SNORRI:You can't have Sven's father sitting next to Sven. They'll argue the whole time.
ERIK:That's true.
(to Sven)YOU'D better sit there.
(to Sven's dad)You there, and Ornulf there.
SNORRI:Now you've got all the big ones on one side.
Erik looks around. It is true that all the tall burly ones are on one side.
ERIK:All right, you go there. You here...
Sven's dad and Ornulf swap places.
SVEN'S DAD:Ohh! I wanted to sit next to Leif.
ERIK:Shut up. You there. You there and you there.
Ivar and Ornulf swap places. Erik surveys this re-arrangement.
ERIK:That's better.
SNORRI:Now you've got all the ones with beards on one side and all the moustaches on the other.
it's what I think of when people make comments about ZOS' decions
what the christ is thisEdited by Myux on October 2, 2018 12:07AM5 -
maboleth✭✭✭✭✭
✭Aside from some changes coming in Nerfmire, I like ESO mechanics now much more than, say, 3 years ago. Despite some forumer opinions, I feel it is more balanced, different traits are used more, different mundus stones, everyone can combine different sets together with monster sets. Everything is more or less craftable and can be transmuted, even jewelry. CP points are now spread on many branches. You don't always have to be meta to have fun and be viable in PVP. Changes in Cyrodiil are VERY exciting indeed. Speaking of PVPers, do note that many are also BG-ing.
So, in my opinion, ZOS is doing quite well, considering how complex and big this game is. Are they always right? Hell no. Are they stubborn and sometimes having their heads in the sand? Yes.
Nevertheless, I like your post and a metaphor with the hammer and the chisel, so +1 for me.
Edited by maboleth on October 2, 2018 12:13AM4 -
_Ahala_✭✭✭✭✭
✭I couldn’t have said it better myself... I’m still in shock after reading the proposed Bird of Prey change which will be the worst nerf in Magden history if it goes live11 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭to be fair they did go for the gradual option with some of the changes this PTS version, like impreg and swift. and, drama aisde, i do agree small and gradual changes are much healthier for the game, and if there were small balance patches every 2 or 3 weeks inbetween DLC patches it would help the game out SIGNIFICANTLY. take it slow, if ur gonna overhaul something be sure to make sure everyone (or most everyone) is ok with it!
what the christ is this
It's from Erik the Viking...0 -
GlorphNoldorin✭✭✭✭✭Aside from some changes coming in Nerfmire, I like ESO mechanics now much more than, say, 3 years ago. Despite some forumer opinions, I feel it is more balanced, different traits are used more, different mundus stones, everyone can combine different sets together with monster sets. Everything is more or less craftable and can be transmuted, even jewelry. CP points are now spread on many branches. You don't always have to be meta to have fun and be viable in PVP. Changes in Cyrodiil are VERY exciting indeed. Speaking of PVPers, do note that many are also BG-ing.
So, in my opinion, ZOS is doing quite well, considering how complex and big this game is. Are they always right? Hell no. Are they stubborn and sometimes having their heads in the sand? Yes.
Nevertheless, I like your post and a metaphor with the hammer and the chisel, so +1 for me.
I respect your opinion but have to politely disagree and I could not agree more with the OP.
Those in charge of combat do not have any idea about their game as played at endgame pvp and pve levels. (They cant clear their own dlc dungeons).
They are so out of touch for a very long time with what the player base really wants given by their consistent love of adding proc sets....viper, velidreth, tremor-scale, earth-gore, sloads, caluurons etc etc. Not to mention their tardiness and reluctance to fix game breaking bugs (well the sprint bug finally has some work started on it...omfg about time) Not also to mention the appalling prime time server performance in pvp.
They have no vision for their game except that pvp and pve can not be separated given by how they are reported (and all the evidence I have seen supports this) to say they base combat modification on reading complaints in the forums.
They will add jewelry traits and sets with almost little consideration to how they will affect the game. Leave those on the pts to offer meaningful feedback, then disregard that feedback. Only to drastically butcher those very same sets and jewelry traits in the not too distant future.
They only seem to deal in the hammer as stated by the OP.(eg So lets make shields critable, less than half their strength and a cast time.......ok so they changed stuff and its in process on pts but what a mindset)
I hold little hope for the future combat modification and for me the game gets less and less fun to play.10 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yep. Why the f they felt the need to monkey with Major Expedition on skills is baffling.
Same with the recent snare and defile nerfs. A few targeted tweaks would have been great, like making Ardent Flame skills snare on impact only - brilliant. No need to then go on a nerf rampage and smash everything in your path.9 -
Myux✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »
It's from Erik the Viking...
what the christ is that. are you roleplaying in a pvp thread4 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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what the christ is that. are you roleplaying in a pvp thread
It's a movie, with a funny scene on how someone can never be right.1 -
Myux✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »
It's a movie, with a funny scene on how someone can never be right.
so youre roleplaying fanfiction in a pvp thread. can you go back to riften or something?4 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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so youre roleplaying fanfiction in a pvp thread. can you go back to riften or something?
No, I was making a point about the constant complaints about anything ZOS does.
[snip]
[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]Edited by ZOS_RogerJ on August 21, 2019 5:53PM8 -
Myux✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »
It's a movie, with a funny scene on how someone can never be right.
so youre roleplaying fanfiction in a pvp thread. can you go back to riften or something?rfennell_ESO wrote: »
No, I was making a point about the constant complaints about anything ZOS does.
I didn't think it would be so over one's head, but I guess head's that aren't quite at their max height can be a little short.
so youre roleplaying in character of fictional characters to make a point about how you dont agree with someones opinion?
literally why? cant you just talk like a normal person instead of a wall of roleplaying text?5 -
Maryal✭✭✭✭✭
✭Blanket over-nerfs occur when the qq'ers go into a feeding frenzy at the behest of a vocal few who throw chum into the shark infested waters we call 'the forums.'
These vocal few think they are right, but often they aren't. It's easy for them to look on the surface and identify symptoms as 'problems' when in actuality the real problem (root cause) is buried several layers deep.
Solutions only work when the root problem is correctly identified. In this case, the root problem was NOT correctly identified, so the solution imposed will not fix the problem.
Edited by Maryal on October 2, 2018 1:12AM6 -
Myux✭✭✭Blanket over-nerfs occur when the qq'ers go into a feeding frenzy at the behest of a vocal few who throw chum into the shark infested waters we call 'the forums.'
These vocal few think they are right, but often they aren't. It's easy for them to look on the surface and identify symptoms as 'problems' when in actuality the real problem (root cause) is buried several layers deep.
Solutions only work when the root problem is correctly identified. In this case, the root problem was NOT correctly identified, so the solution imposed will not fix the problem.
a fair point, but in games with as much character and build customization as this one, trying to fix root problems would result in overhauling literally everything. i dont think zos wants to bother with overhauling the whole concept of snares and roots and their removal to combat "people are 2fast" as much as i would like an overhaul of it.
EDIT: i say that but then i realize they did try to overhaul damage shields and mess it up massively. large thinkEdited by Myux on October 2, 2018 1:14AM1 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The only problem I have with threads like this is trying to pick if I should give you an insightful, awesome, or agree. I want to choose all of them.
Seriously though, great post spot on!
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NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I see only facts writtenFlawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info6 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RobGarrett I implore you guys to read this thread. Please. I was going to make the exact same thread earlier today, but decided not to because I simply couldn't put it into words, but OP has put it perfectly.
The "chisel versus hammer" approach you guys are taking is killing the game for its core audience. This patch has been a prime example within a whole list of prime examples of how bad this approach to balancing can be.
We saw it with Morrowind, where sustain was going unchecked in PVP, primarily due to CP, but rather than looking at the fine details of the problem, you guys decided to just nerf sustain outright and the game is still trying to recover from that to this day.
We saw it with Horns of the Reach, where one specific build on the PTS was slightly overperforming (stacking into crit with Mother's Sorrow and Iceheart), and the community even guided you on what to do to bring this build back in line (slightly nerf the 5-piece bonus of Mother's Sorrow), but you guys decided to nerf crit outright, pushing everybody back to the Morrowind meta.
We saw it with Summerset and subsequent patches, including Wolfhunter, where one of Sorcerer's skills was overperforming, and rather than taking a step back and finding what exactly is making it so strong (granted the community couldn't come to that consensus either), you guys decided to pile nerf on top of nerf on top of nerf onto this skill, making it practically useless, all in the name of removing the stun from frags.
We've seen it many times over in the other patches since One Tamriel, though I can't speak to patches prior to that as I wasn't playing the game back then.
We're still seeing it now, arguably as bad as Morrowind. You guys seem adamant that shields are overperforming in both PVE and PVP, though rather than adding a few nerfs (namely the crit nerf and the resistance buff) then seeing how shields play, you guys decided to hit shields with a huge nerf via a cast time. It is good that you reverted it, and the new health scaling nerf can be argued for being better or worse, but the very fact that you guys piled 3 big nerfs onto them, before even letting players test the impact of them, is the problem.
And we're seeing it crystal clear in these latest patch notes with mobility. Most people come to the general consensus that what is overperforming is the interaction between Swift, Major Expedition, and Forward Momentum, and at the heart, it is Forward Momentum causing this interaction to be way too strong. The counter to speed is snares and immobilisations, but through Forward Momentum, somebody can gain complete snare immunity for 8 seconds with 100% uptime. But instead of just adjusting Forward Momentum, maybe even bringing Swift down a little, you guys decide to nerf mobility across the board, in places it really didn't need to be nerfed.
What makes this so much more infuriating is that you guys are so close to achieving great balance most of the time, but you screw the pooch by overnerfing. Rather than going at a problem with a nerf scalpel, you go at it with a nerf sledgehammer, consequently destroying the patient, the table, and the floor. This has been proven time and time again, and will continue to happen until you guys do something about it.
If you need help identifying issues, why not talk to the community about it. Come onto the forums and ask us what the problem is with x, then monitor responses. Or, hell, why not use the class reps program you guys have going. Before even planning out changes, let alone doing them, ask the reps what the problem is with x, and what they suggest doing about it.
To sum it up, please, just forego the "chisel versus hammer" approach you guys have towards balancing. It is not working, it has never worked, and only serves to drive players away.Edited by jcm2606 on October 2, 2018 1:31AM38 -
ezio45✭✭✭✭✭
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What isnt against zos tos lol it would be a shorter list
shut up and give zos $$$ only thing they want or care about8 -
ezio45✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭as someone who has become very disillusioned with eso over the last 4 updates i agree with everything the OP says zos's over nerf fix later tactics are getting old especially when they take so long to correct the damage done, its been over a yr since the templar and sustain nerf and there just fixing it now. now there doing the same thing to sorc but worse, how long will it take them to fix this damage. How long will sorc be unplayable for? after investing so much time in my class, its just a very bad blow to my love for the game.12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otCpCn0l4Wo
