The Chisel vs The Hammer: An Open Letter to ZOS

Doctordarkspawn

[removed quote]

All of those things are shells of their former selves. Both had mechanics to the class level ingrained in their inherent design, laid down in the first year before the Wrobel came. Both were purged. The game suffered for both, build variety, player freedom, and game depth, all gone.

The game will survive, yes. Up until the players decide they've had enough and the churn ZOS is surviving off grow wise. And move to their competitor.

Doctordarkspawn

Biro123 wrote: »

The problem with listening to the players, though - is which players are they listening to?

Take a poll.

Barring that, as many players have said, look at the core of why the issue is happening as with the speed changes, and fine-tune what is causing issues. It isn't that hard.

zyk

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

The problem with listening to the players, though - is which players are they listening to?

Take a poll.

Barring that, as many players have said, look at the core of why the issue is happening as with the speed changes, and fine-tune what is causing issues. It isn't that hard.

That's like saying Ford should design vehicles according to polls or an architect should design the layout of a building according to popular opinion. That's not how strong products are made.

Creators should always consider feedback from users, but never blindly follow popular opinion. End users can't see the forest from the trees.

The unfortunate reality is that if the game devs aren't able to produce a good product -- for any reason -- the users aren't going to save it. Design by committee never works within an organization and it certainly never works when democratized for the general public.

IMO, the main problem isn't that ZOS game designers are bad, but rather their goal is impossible: a single ruleset for a range of users from ultra-casual PVE players (like yourself I believe) to hardcore competitive PVP players like the OP.

The saga of Grim Focus is an example of this. It was in a good place last year. It was strong, but tricky to use. ZOS made it less tricky to use for the benefit of PVE raiders which made it OP in PVP. Now it's being nerfed in PVP.

The best thing that could happen to ESO PVP would be for ZOS to spin it off as its own, perhaps loosely associated, product with rules exclusively designed for PVP.

caeliusstarbreaker

There are but a few truths in ESO

There will always be lag.
The game will cater to casual play and intermittent returning players via new patches and cash shop items.
Your skills can’t not fire, your bars can’t not swap, and you can’t get zerged down... if you never log in.

Vapirko

zyk wrote: »

I think the main problem with combat balance in ESO is that ZOS is insistent on maintaining one set of rules for disparate styles of play.

Within PVE, the game must be balanced so the most casual players can be successful without even knowing how to play. Then there are 4 player dungeons, and 4-12 player Trials that generally come in three difficulties, Normal, Vet and HM. Players demand all classes be competitive in tanking, healing and especially DPS roles. And then there's vMA which every class is expected to be competitive in solo.

Just balancing PVE alone would be a headache. Add PVP to the mix, and it becomes an migraine aneurysm. Within PVP, there's AvA, IC, BGs and duels. Though Battlegrounds is only 4 players, AvA and IC must be balance for solo, small/medium/large group, and surfing. In AvA and IC, players of all skill levels are thrown in the same arena and the rules are expected to provide all with a good experience.

Then there's two build archetypes, Magicka and Stamina, which also must be competitive with each other in all of these things.

Good luck with that.

Well they certainly make it a lot harder than it needs to be with these out-of-left-field changes that no one asked for and that weren’t in any way needed. PvE in general was fine. And PvP only needed a couple of small adjustments. Make shields critable. Boom, done. Let’s see how it plays out. No classes are so OP that we needed these heavy nerfs. Speed too much? Nerf Swift and done. See how it plays out. Make smaller adjustments on a more regular basis as needed. They completely missed the mark with shuffle changes. I mean idk if it’s so much that it’s impossible to balance as it just a basic lack of understanding on the devs part and *** poor schedule for bringing changes to the game. Something is colossally wrong at ZOS HQ. Take the CP for example, it’s supposed to be a self balancing system, but absolutely fails to do so. Whoever is behind all this just isn’t up to the task it would seem and they’re too proud or whatever to just admit it and won’t sit down and really acknowledge what’s going on. As we’ve told them hundreds of times, they’d be far better off spending their time working on game performance.

Elong

What a fantastic post.

The devs were concerned that speed was too easy to get max cap and it was over performing. So why in the hell didn't they just lower the damn speed cap? That way my Magplar, that actually has become enjoyable to play again, doesn't have to go and get a vampire bite and rely on mist as his only escape. What is build diversity again?

DHale

Some one should really post the definition of a scalpel for the team. When you say scalpel they think they must mean Stormbreaker. Maybe a couple of pictures.

Doctordarkspawn

zyk wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

The problem with listening to the players, though - is which players are they listening to?

The unfortunate reality is that if the game devs aren't able to produce a good product -- for any reason -- the users aren't going to save it.

The planetside community would like a word. A bad game with a good community can do far more then you would expect it to.

In any case, these are not issues where players wouldn't be able to solve anything or would dumb it down. This is idiotic. In fact, we pinpointed the problem and have done so many times. Many of us could do better. The original poster even pinpoints the entire movement speed issue, in his own post. To say that we are not capable of analytical problem solving is horse-pucky.

I am convinced this point of view comes from those who fear llosing what little control on the dev process they actually have to those with enough integrity to set bias aside as much as humanly possible.

That said., you are correct. ZOS is working toward a goal they cannot win.

Mihael

i really hope they read this

Masel

jcm2606 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RobGarrett I implore you guys to read this thread. Please. I was going to make the exact same thread earlier today, but decided not to because I simply couldn't put it into words, but OP has put it perfectly.

The "chisel versus hammer" approach you guys are taking is killing the game for its core audience. This patch has been a prime example within a whole list of prime examples of how bad this approach to balancing can be.

We saw it with Morrowind, where sustain was going unchecked in PVP, primarily due to CP, but rather than looking at the fine details of the problem, you guys decided to just nerf sustain outright and the game is still trying to recover from that to this day.

We saw it with Horns of the Reach, where one specific build on the PTS was slightly overperforming (stacking into crit with Mother's Sorrow and Iceheart), and the community even guided you on what to do to bring this build back in line (slightly nerf the 5-piece bonus of Mother's Sorrow), but you guys decided to nerf crit outright, pushing everybody back to the Morrowind meta.

We saw it with Summerset and subsequent patches, including Wolfhunter, where one of Sorcerer's skills was overperforming, and rather than taking a step back and finding what exactly is making it so strong (granted the community couldn't come to that consensus either), you guys decided to pile nerf on top of nerf on top of nerf onto this skill, making it practically useless, all in the name of removing the stun from frags.

We've seen it many times over in the other patches since One Tamriel, though I can't speak to patches prior to that as I wasn't playing the game back then.

We're still seeing it now, arguably as bad as Morrowind. You guys seem adamant that shields are overperforming in both PVE and PVP, though rather than adding a few nerfs (namely the crit nerf and the resistance buff) then seeing how shields play, you guys decided to hit shields with a huge nerf via a cast time. It is good that you reverted it, and the new health scaling nerf can be argued for being better or worse, but the very fact that you guys piled 3 big nerfs onto them, before even letting players test the impact of them, is the problem.

And we're seeing it crystal clear in these latest patch notes with mobility. Most people come to the general consensus that what is overperforming is the interaction between Swift, Major Expedition, and Forward Momentum, and at the heart, it is Forward Momentum causing this interaction to be way too strong. The counter to speed is snares and immobilisations, but through Forward Momentum, somebody can gain complete snare immunity for 8 seconds with 100% uptime. But instead of just adjusting Forward Momentum, maybe even bringing Swift down a little, you guys decide to nerf mobility across the board, in places it really didn't need to be nerfed.

What makes this so much more infuriating is that you guys are so close to achieving great balance most of the time, but you screw the pooch by overnerfing. Rather than going at a problem with a nerf scalpel, you go at it with a nerf sledgehammer, consequently destroying the patient, the table, and the floor. This has been proven time and time again, and will continue to happen until you guys do something about it.

If you need help identifying issues, why not talk to the community about it. Come onto the forums and ask us what the problem is with x, then monitor responses. Or, hell, why not use the class reps program you guys have going. Before even planning out changes, let alone doing them, ask the reps what the problem is with x, and what they suggest doing about it.

To sum it up, please, just forego the "chisel versus hammer" approach you guys have towards balancing. It is not working, it has never worked, and only serves to drive players away.

Technically that's where we thought us class reps would come in as intermediaries, but it hasn't worked that way because they told us specifically that they do not want suggestions, but pain points.

We tell them exactly and specifically what needs addressing (in this case it was forward momentum and swift), but this was totally unexpected. Same for the shield thing. People have been telling us that we did a great job and many changes this patch are very much in line with the pain points we presented, but then they put other changes in that completely overshadow the work we do. It's frustrating, really.

caeliusstarbreaker

Masel92 wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RobGarrett I implore you guys to read this thread. Please. I was going to make the exact same thread earlier today, but decided not to because I simply couldn't put it into words, but OP has put it perfectly.

The "chisel versus hammer" approach you guys are taking is killing the game for its core audience. This patch has been a prime example within a whole list of prime examples of how bad this approach to balancing can be.

We saw it with Morrowind, where sustain was going unchecked in PVP, primarily due to CP, but rather than looking at the fine details of the problem, you guys decided to just nerf sustain outright and the game is still trying to recover from that to this day.

We saw it with Horns of the Reach, where one specific build on the PTS was slightly overperforming (stacking into crit with Mother's Sorrow and Iceheart), and the community even guided you on what to do to bring this build back in line (slightly nerf the 5-piece bonus of Mother's Sorrow), but you guys decided to nerf crit outright, pushing everybody back to the Morrowind meta.

We saw it with Summerset and subsequent patches, including Wolfhunter, where one of Sorcerer's skills was overperforming, and rather than taking a step back and finding what exactly is making it so strong (granted the community couldn't come to that consensus either), you guys decided to pile nerf on top of nerf on top of nerf onto this skill, making it practically useless, all in the name of removing the stun from frags.

We've seen it many times over in the other patches since One Tamriel, though I can't speak to patches prior to that as I wasn't playing the game back then.

We're still seeing it now, arguably as bad as Morrowind. You guys seem adamant that shields are overperforming in both PVE and PVP, though rather than adding a few nerfs (namely the crit nerf and the resistance buff) then seeing how shields play, you guys decided to hit shields with a huge nerf via a cast time. It is good that you reverted it, and the new health scaling nerf can be argued for being better or worse, but the very fact that you guys piled 3 big nerfs onto them, before even letting players test the impact of them, is the problem.

And we're seeing it crystal clear in these latest patch notes with mobility. Most people come to the general consensus that what is overperforming is the interaction between Swift, Major Expedition, and Forward Momentum, and at the heart, it is Forward Momentum causing this interaction to be way too strong. The counter to speed is snares and immobilisations, but through Forward Momentum, somebody can gain complete snare immunity for 8 seconds with 100% uptime. But instead of just adjusting Forward Momentum, maybe even bringing Swift down a little, you guys decide to nerf mobility across the board, in places it really didn't need to be nerfed.

What makes this so much more infuriating is that you guys are so close to achieving great balance most of the time, but you screw the pooch by overnerfing. Rather than going at a problem with a nerf scalpel, you go at it with a nerf sledgehammer, consequently destroying the patient, the table, and the floor. This has been proven time and time again, and will continue to happen until you guys do something about it.

If you need help identifying issues, why not talk to the community about it. Come onto the forums and ask us what the problem is with x, then monitor responses. Or, hell, why not use the class reps program you guys have going. Before even planning out changes, let alone doing them, ask the reps what the problem is with x, and what they suggest doing about it.

To sum it up, please, just forego the "chisel versus hammer" approach you guys have towards balancing. It is not working, it has never worked, and only serves to drive players away.

Technically that's where we though us class reps would come in as intermediariesintermediaries, but it hasn't worked that way because they told us specifically that they do not want suggestions, but pain points.

We tell them exactly and specifically what needs addressing (in this case it was forward momentum and swift), but this was totally unexpected. Same for the shield thing. People have been telling us that we did a great job and many changes this patch are very much in line with the pain points we presented, but then they put other changes in that completely overshadow the work we do. It's frustrating, really.

Did you list the devs as pain points?

Masel

Mihael wrote: »

i really hope they read this

They did, I know that for certain.

ezio45

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I remain convinced the entirety of these problems stem from one man and his inability to concede that he is not the supreme executive power when it comes to deciding what a issue is and how to fix it.

And we all know his name.

yup, even with class reps he aint listening

jcm2606

Masel92 wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RobGarrett I implore you guys to read this thread. Please. I was going to make the exact same thread earlier today, but decided not to because I simply couldn't put it into words, but OP has put it perfectly.

The "chisel versus hammer" approach you guys are taking is killing the game for its core audience. This patch has been a prime example within a whole list of prime examples of how bad this approach to balancing can be.

We saw it with Morrowind, where sustain was going unchecked in PVP, primarily due to CP, but rather than looking at the fine details of the problem, you guys decided to just nerf sustain outright and the game is still trying to recover from that to this day.

We saw it with Horns of the Reach, where one specific build on the PTS was slightly overperforming (stacking into crit with Mother's Sorrow and Iceheart), and the community even guided you on what to do to bring this build back in line (slightly nerf the 5-piece bonus of Mother's Sorrow), but you guys decided to nerf crit outright, pushing everybody back to the Morrowind meta.

We saw it with Summerset and subsequent patches, including Wolfhunter, where one of Sorcerer's skills was overperforming, and rather than taking a step back and finding what exactly is making it so strong (granted the community couldn't come to that consensus either), you guys decided to pile nerf on top of nerf on top of nerf onto this skill, making it practically useless, all in the name of removing the stun from frags.

We've seen it many times over in the other patches since One Tamriel, though I can't speak to patches prior to that as I wasn't playing the game back then.

We're still seeing it now, arguably as bad as Morrowind. You guys seem adamant that shields are overperforming in both PVE and PVP, though rather than adding a few nerfs (namely the crit nerf and the resistance buff) then seeing how shields play, you guys decided to hit shields with a huge nerf via a cast time. It is good that you reverted it, and the new health scaling nerf can be argued for being better or worse, but the very fact that you guys piled 3 big nerfs onto them, before even letting players test the impact of them, is the problem.

And we're seeing it crystal clear in these latest patch notes with mobility. Most people come to the general consensus that what is overperforming is the interaction between Swift, Major Expedition, and Forward Momentum, and at the heart, it is Forward Momentum causing this interaction to be way too strong. The counter to speed is snares and immobilisations, but through Forward Momentum, somebody can gain complete snare immunity for 8 seconds with 100% uptime. But instead of just adjusting Forward Momentum, maybe even bringing Swift down a little, you guys decide to nerf mobility across the board, in places it really didn't need to be nerfed.

What makes this so much more infuriating is that you guys are so close to achieving great balance most of the time, but you screw the pooch by overnerfing. Rather than going at a problem with a nerf scalpel, you go at it with a nerf sledgehammer, consequently destroying the patient, the table, and the floor. This has been proven time and time again, and will continue to happen until you guys do something about it.

If you need help identifying issues, why not talk to the community about it. Come onto the forums and ask us what the problem is with x, then monitor responses. Or, hell, why not use the class reps program you guys have going. Before even planning out changes, let alone doing them, ask the reps what the problem is with x, and what they suggest doing about it.

To sum it up, please, just forego the "chisel versus hammer" approach you guys have towards balancing. It is not working, it has never worked, and only serves to drive players away.

Technically that's where we though us class reps would come in as intermediariesintermediaries, but it hasn't worked that way because they told us specifically that they do not want suggestions, but pain points.

We tell them exactly and specifically what needs addressing (in this case it was forward momentum and swift), but this was totally unexpected. Same for the shield thing. People have been telling us that we did a great job and many changes this patch are very much in line with the pain points we presented, but then they put other changes in that completely overshadow the work we do. It's frustrating, really.

Yeah, truth be told I feel really bad for you guys, because of the position Zenimax has put you in. Must be even more frustrating knowing that you're that much closer to influencing balance for the better, yet can't really do anything about it.

ezio45

Masel92 wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RobGarrett I implore you guys to read this thread. Please. I was going to make the exact same thread earlier today, but decided not to because I simply couldn't put it into words, but OP has put it perfectly.

The "chisel versus hammer" approach you guys are taking is killing the game for its core audience. This patch has been a prime example within a whole list of prime examples of how bad this approach to balancing can be.

We saw it with Morrowind, where sustain was going unchecked in PVP, primarily due to CP, but rather than looking at the fine details of the problem, you guys decided to just nerf sustain outright and the game is still trying to recover from that to this day.

We saw it with Horns of the Reach, where one specific build on the PTS was slightly overperforming (stacking into crit with Mother's Sorrow and Iceheart), and the community even guided you on what to do to bring this build back in line (slightly nerf the 5-piece bonus of Mother's Sorrow), but you guys decided to nerf crit outright, pushing everybody back to the Morrowind meta.

We saw it with Summerset and subsequent patches, including Wolfhunter, where one of Sorcerer's skills was overperforming, and rather than taking a step back and finding what exactly is making it so strong (granted the community couldn't come to that consensus either), you guys decided to pile nerf on top of nerf on top of nerf onto this skill, making it practically useless, all in the name of removing the stun from frags.

We've seen it many times over in the other patches since One Tamriel, though I can't speak to patches prior to that as I wasn't playing the game back then.

We're still seeing it now, arguably as bad as Morrowind. You guys seem adamant that shields are overperforming in both PVE and PVP, though rather than adding a few nerfs (namely the crit nerf and the resistance buff) then seeing how shields play, you guys decided to hit shields with a huge nerf via a cast time. It is good that you reverted it, and the new health scaling nerf can be argued for being better or worse, but the very fact that you guys piled 3 big nerfs onto them, before even letting players test the impact of them, is the problem.

And we're seeing it crystal clear in these latest patch notes with mobility. Most people come to the general consensus that what is overperforming is the interaction between Swift, Major Expedition, and Forward Momentum, and at the heart, it is Forward Momentum causing this interaction to be way too strong. The counter to speed is snares and immobilisations, but through Forward Momentum, somebody can gain complete snare immunity for 8 seconds with 100% uptime. But instead of just adjusting Forward Momentum, maybe even bringing Swift down a little, you guys decide to nerf mobility across the board, in places it really didn't need to be nerfed.

What makes this so much more infuriating is that you guys are so close to achieving great balance most of the time, but you screw the pooch by overnerfing. Rather than going at a problem with a nerf scalpel, you go at it with a nerf sledgehammer, consequently destroying the patient, the table, and the floor. This has been proven time and time again, and will continue to happen until you guys do something about it.

If you need help identifying issues, why not talk to the community about it. Come onto the forums and ask us what the problem is with x, then monitor responses. Or, hell, why not use the class reps program you guys have going. Before even planning out changes, let alone doing them, ask the reps what the problem is with x, and what they suggest doing about it.

To sum it up, please, just forego the "chisel versus hammer" approach you guys have towards balancing. It is not working, it has never worked, and only serves to drive players away.

Technically that's where we though us class reps would come in as intermediariesintermediaries, but it hasn't worked that way because they told us specifically that they do not want suggestions, but pain points.

We tell them exactly and specifically what needs addressing (in this case it was forward momentum and swift), but this was totally unexpected. Same for the shield thing. People have been telling us that we did a great job and many changes this patch are very much in line with the pain points we presented, but then they put other changes in that completely overshadow the work we do. It's frustrating, really.

@Masel92 I think the community does recognize that the class rep program is doing a good job, im very grateful to have you guys and some of you I have got to know alot better this patch lol @Tasear pretty much gets an essay from me every pts update I mean im a magsorc main, havent really got to see any results for myself but thats on zos not the reps. The one thing they did listen to the reps on they still screwed up because pets sorcs werent the one with sustain issues. Even now i see you guys doing good work and It has shown results for other classes. I hope someday they wise up and let the reps make suggestions or at the very least run major changes by you all, I know for a fact if they did the 1 sec cast time on shields would never have been made a thing. I with 0 doubts can say I have more faith in anyone of the class reps than the whole of zos combat team.

TheCyberDruid

Completely agree with OP. Most of the 'adjustments' feel more like an overreation than a 'let us see if this is enough' approach. It would be better if ZOS would slowly turn a dial in a direction and see if it is enough and not just crank it up just to realise they went too far... again. We'll see how bad it actually will be when it goes live.

FakeFox

We aren't what makes them money, new players buying their way into the game are. Those people will have spent most of their money before reaching the endgame anyway, so what does balancing matter? ESO will be dead anyway in a few years and I highly doubt we will ever see another game from ZOS, they have nothing to lose, so why not milk this game for whats left?

FakeFox

DHale wrote: »

Some one should really post the definition of a scalpel for the team. When you say scalpel they think they must mean Stormbreaker. Maybe a couple of pictures.

"Atomic bomb, also called atom bomb, weapon with great explosive power that results from the sudden release of energy upon the splitting, or fission, of the nuclei of a heavy element such as plutonium or uranium."

Uh, I think something has gone wrong here...

Xvorg

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I remain convinced the entirety of these problems stem from one man and his inability to concede that he is not the supreme executive power when it comes to deciding what a issue is and how to fix it.

And we all know his name.

Xvorg

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

The problem with listening to the players, though - is which players are they listening to?

Take a poll.

Barring that, as many players have said, look at the core of why the issue is happening as with the speed changes, and fine-tune what is causing issues. It isn't that hard.

I don't think it's a good idea. In fact the class representative is in theory a good idea. In practice the guys are just becoming scapegoats.

pieratsos

zyk wrote: »

Creators should always consider feedback from users, but never blindly follow popular opinion. End users can't see the forest from the trees.

Well Zos cant see neither the forest nor the tree which is the whole issue.

NyassaV

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Agree with most of this, changes are consistently far too drastic. PTS cycles are a few weeks, plenty of time for small incremental changes. I recognize that they are trying and they do respond to feedback. Please keep speaking truth to them Class Reps.

If ZOS decides to nerf speed across the board without touching Rapids, there's going to be a mass exodus of PvPers who don't play in large groups. Classes such as Stamsorc and both Templars need to be considered when implementing a speed potion nerf. And for the love of Talos remove Evasion and buff Shuffle to give medium unquestionably superior mobility. Swift to 7% each, Forward Momentum to 5 sec immunity seems balanced. And if speed pots go to 15 seconds they will be almost worthless. 30 seconds should be the absolute minimum and imo 45 seconds is fine. I would rather see immovability pots removed from the game than nerfing mobility so hard.

They don't have the resources and staff to do it that often

Prabooo

Joy_Division wrote: »

Insightful!

we should leave the insightfuls for bashing

Pelican

ZOS should consult and listen to the class reps more, many of the reps' suggested changes and pain points are on point, such as the forward momentum and impregnable armor nerf, but a lot of things are clearly implemented without confirming with the class reps. Majority, if not all the class rep will never support such changes.

Gnozo

ZOS should listen so much to this. Make smal changes, See how they work on live. If needed do some more with the next patch.

Speed: Reduce swift and forward momentum. Monitor it on live, adjust with the next patch if needed.

Shields: Add resistences and crit modifier to them. Monitor on live, adjust with the next patch if needed.

If i would buy a car that i fell in love with an drive it everyday and then after about 2 years the company where i bought it would come to me and replace my car with a bycicle i would be kinda mad. Kinda like TESO for atm.

Numerikuu

Masel92 wrote: »

We tell them exactly and specifically what needs addressing (in this case it was forward momentum and swift), but this was totally unexpected. Same for the shield thing. People have been telling us that we did a great job and many changes this patch are very much in line with the pain points we presented, but then they put other changes in that completely overshadow the work we do. It's frustrating, really.

Third strike and I'd be done, especially with the work and effort you all do. I'd tell everyone in the program to up and leave at that point to send them a message.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me...

Synozeer

Gnozo wrote: »

ZOS should listen so much to this. Make smal changes, See how they work on live. If needed do some more with the next patch.

Speed: Reduce swift and forward momentum. Monitor it on live, adjust with the next patch if needed.

Shields: Add resistences and crit modifier to them. Monitor on live, adjust with the next patch if needed.

If i would buy a car that i fell in love with an drive it everyday and then after about 2 years the company where i bought it would come to me and replace my car with a bycicle i would be kinda mad. Kinda like TESO for atm.

I feel like I heard a while back that the reason that ZOS makes all the changes at once every 3 months has something to do with not being able to do updates on Xbox and Playstation as often. Before those platforms had the game available, I remember updates being a lot more regular and closer together.

ezio45

Numerikuu wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

We tell them exactly and specifically what needs addressing (in this case it was forward momentum and swift), but this was totally unexpected. Same for the shield thing. People have been telling us that we did a great job and many changes this patch are very much in line with the pain points we presented, but then they put other changes in that completely overshadow the work we do. It's frustrating, really.

Third strike and I'd be done, especially with the work and effort you all do. I'd tell everyone in the program to up and leave at that point to send them a message.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me...

nah there the only hope for this games combat...

Numerikuu

ezio45 wrote: »

nah there the only hope for this games combat...

Oh, without a shadow of a doubt. Still means little though when that hope dies more and more with each sledgehammer of a patch.

If Zeni is doing all this because of some huge future change they have planned (which I doubt), then they need to be transparent about it. I know they don't need to say squat, but at this point staying silent is doing them more harm than good. Lack of communication is never a good thing.

Digital Extremes works together with their community in a variety of ways and shares their vision, and it's working wonders for them--if not saved them even. Everyone thought Warframe was going to drop dead at one point. Now it's stronger than ever.

But I digress

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Agree 100% with OP.