The Chisel vs The Hammer: An Open Letter to ZOS

RedRook

Biro123 wrote: »

The problem with listening to the players, though - is which players are they listening to?

Yeah. The hyper-partisan and the irrational tend to out themselves pretty quickly, so I doubt they have as much influence as people fear. Players who've been around for a while and still play the game, I hope they're listening to them. They do seem to be at least hearing what the class reps put before them, which is gleaned from many sources and probably needs a couple of grains of salt, but that's vastly preferable to just ignoring us, or relying on numbers alone.

Bhelen

Well written post, and exactly how I feel. This patch is really shaking core PvPers who have played for years to their roots. Overall the changes seem to be unhealthy for the game and people are becoming panicked for what the future holds.

rfennell_ESO

RavenSworn wrote: »

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rfennell_ESO wrote: »

ERIK:HE was lucky...

(to Sven's dad)

Sit there.

SNORRI:You can't have Sven's father sitting next to Sven. They'll argue the whole time.

ERIK:That's true.

(to Sven)YOU'D better sit there.

(to Sven's dad)You there, and Ornulf there.

SNORRI:Now you've got all the big ones on one side.

Erik looks around. It is true that all the tall burly ones are on one side.

ERIK:All right, you go there. You here...

Sven's dad and Ornulf swap places.

SVEN'S DAD:Ohh! I wanted to sit next to Leif.

ERIK:Shut up. You there. You there and you there.

Ivar and Ornulf swap places. Erik surveys this re-arrangement.

ERIK:That's better.

SNORRI:Now you've got all the ones with beards on one side and all the moustaches on the other.

it's what I think of when people make comments about ZOS' decions

You're a legend bruv! 😎

I would have just posted a video of it, but there wasn't one to be found with that scene.

The point is, that after rearranging everyone on the viking longboat to the most rational and sensical format he could, he still ends up with the bearded ones on one side and the moustached ones on the other.

I would much rather ZOS make changes without addressing the peanut gallery. The problem with the peanut gallery is that they are going to throw peanuts at you no matter what you do, that's more or less their function.

Pelican

They will definitely listen to the majority which are people that don't solo or small scale in order to retain them in the game.
Seems logical at first until you realise the small scalers and solo players defeating enemies while outnumbered are the ones creating all the hype for people to try out pvp. Seeing a small group or solo player beat the odds against much larger groups is really motivational and makes people want to play pvp, its the reason I wanted to try pvp in the first place, getting hyped from watching 1vX videos. But if changes like these keep coming all the small scalers and solo players are gonna quit and then there will be no more hype for pvp. In fact compared to a year or two back the amount of such players has drastically reduced, and will only keep decreasing if poorly thought out changes like these keep going on. Who would look at 30 people zerging down 3-4 players and think "yeah thats fun and something i want to work towards".
I understand that ESO is meant to be a numbers game but its small scale and solo play that are going to entice passionate players who are willing to go the extra mile to challenge themselves and push their limits of gameplay.

ak_pvp

+1'd

Numerikuu

I wish I could give your post an agree and an awesome. More than once in fact.

Bitmun

Said perfect. 100% agree. All the game needs is just small fixes, but not the global unneeded nerfs to classes and whole mechanics.

Galarthor

Great letter. Polite, concise, apt.
You nailed it!

gepe87

ESO is the only game that bring deep changes for classes that are out there for years. Its like we never passed through beta.

Kolache

People [removed profanity] about blocking nerfs and how it would ruin tanking and ruin PvE. PvE survived.
People [removed profanity] about sustain nerfs and heavy-attack requirements, people found ways around that.
People will adapt to the changes that make it through this PTS cycle too.

NyassaV

[removed quote]
That doesn't mean it's fun. Just because you can adapt doesn't mean it's still fun anymore.

Kolache

[removed quote]

If you can adapt to nerfs in blocking with permablocking and you can adapt to nerfs in sustain without using heavy attacks then to me that says apparently the nerfs weren't too severe.

NyassaV

[removed quote]

You fail to see the point.

IT'S NOT FUN ANYMORE

That isn't even mentioned having to re-learn stuff which takes time and effort. Such time and effort some people won't put in and will end up leaving the game anyways.

LeifErickson

My problem with adding a necromancer class to the game is that it would most likely be another class behind a pay wall but I get where you are coming from. If they can make the stam version more than a dizzying swing spammer then I guess I would be okay with it.

Kolache

[removed quote]

I thought the point of the thread was "the chisel vs the hammer" which is why I responded along the lines of apparently it wasn't too much hammer vs. chisel when people end up doing the same things they tried to nerf.

Sorry I can't really be more constructive with your "I'm not having fun anymore" problem. I wouldn't have replied to a thread you created if that was all you really had to say.

Xvorg

[removed quote]
It's easy to say "people" addressing the ones who stayed, without considering all those who left the game because of those decisions.

In fact, the quote should say "some people adapt". And I think that's not the idea. If your plan is stay here until none of us is playing anymore, well, good luck, hope you have fun.

Valykc

Couldn’t agree more with OP

Nerftheforums

You, my sir, centered the bull's eye. This hammer of war against solo/small scale and, more in general, top quality gameplay has swing so hard and so many times it is now impossible to create the once attractive statue that PvP was. There is no inventive to improve, and no incentive to stay for those who seek to do so. The almighty zerg, already strong in its numbers, had in the last years the strongest of allies: the developers. Destroyed the statue, nothing but shatters on a pedestal is what remains of the Pvp community that once counted hundreds of skillful players. The lag wasn't able to kill us. It was this hammer that zos so proudly wields that has destroyed the beauty of seeing few, extremely competent fighter's rip apart waves of rolling potatos.

This patch is another nail in the coffin of the ceiling that has been lowered so much that now the floor is able to see the sky, leaving the former to slowly die in the mud.

Once again, gf skillful gameplay. Gf small scale. Gf solo play. You fought hard, but it wasn't enough. The zerg won once more. The devs continue to tbag your cold body.

Rest in pepperoni.

Kolache

[removed quote]

Maybe so. The point I was trying to make is that people overreact. Fun or not, adapt or don't, stay or go, I'm willing to wager that the same content will be completed a couple months from now. You can imagine that ESO's current and future populations are entirely due to the likes/dislikes of like-minded people but I seriously doubt that most players even visit the forums or give a [removed profanity] which streamer stops playing.

WreckfulAbandon

Agree with most of this, changes are consistently far too drastic. PTS cycles are a few weeks, plenty of time for small incremental changes. I recognize that they are trying and they do respond to feedback. Please keep speaking truth to them Class Reps.

If ZOS decides to nerf speed across the board without touching Rapids, there's going to be a mass exodus of PvPers who don't play in large groups. Classes such as Stamsorc and both Templars need to be considered when implementing a speed potion nerf. And for the love of Talos remove Evasion and buff Shuffle to give medium unquestionably superior mobility. Swift to 7% each, Forward Momentum to 5 sec immunity seems balanced. And if speed pots go to 15 seconds they will be almost worthless. 30 seconds should be the absolute minimum and imo 45 seconds is fine. I would rather see immovability pots removed from the game than nerfing mobility so hard.

Nox_Noir

I've lost the last bit of faith in ZOS that I still had. I don't wanna play Murkmire.
Maybe it's time to move on, the market is full of other fun games. My remaining attachment to ESO seems now irrational to me.

RinaldoGandolphi

@CyrusArya

You nailed this one right on the head bro!

I know you have been playing a long time like I have. Its gut wrenching to watch what they have been doing sucking and stripping all the uniqueness away from the classes, and nerfing everything.

I hope they take heed to what you wrote. I have hardly spoke much about anything this PTS cycle simply because I no longer have the heart to do so. I have become numb to it. I don't play as much as i used to because its not as fun as it used to be with the changes.

anyways, keep up the good dialogue bud!

SeleneXIII

NyassaV wrote: »

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Kolache wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

[removed quote]

That doesn't mean it's fun. Just because you can adapt doesn't mean it's still fun anymore.

If you can adapt to nerfs in blocking with permablocking and you can adapt to nerfs in sustain without using heavy attacks then to me that says apparently the nerfs weren't too severe.

You fail to see the point.

IT'S NOT FUN ANYMORE

That isn't even mentioned having to re-learn stuff which takes time and effort. Such time and effort some people won't put in and will end up leaving the game anyways.[/quote]

I totally agree with the OP and people screaming that the game is being less fun with each patch as they give a drastic overhaul to bunch of stuff...
I am one of the folks where they come back and play obsessively and the give a break but then every time I come back, I recognize the game less and less. I adapt every time, but the time it keeps me around is getting less and less because it is becoming less fun every time...

It is just very sad to see and against all these posts, supposed community rep programs etc, not much seems to change...

Yusuf

I'm just here to tell you how much I agree with your analyzation.

ZOS should really learn how to fine-tune things.

TheRealSniker

+1, the assassins will change is complete bullsh*t

Slowing the combat pace for a class that is based around fast combat is ridiculous

BaylorCorvette

Agree with OP.

Probably the best change for the mobility abuse issues is make Forward Momentum only cleanse snares and not grant immunity. Then make shuffle give ~5 second immunity. You want mobility? Go Medium (or light with the new changes to the passives). You want survivability and resistances? Go Heavy. The changes to Swift are fine. But if the changes I just stated were done, then Major Expedition (from pots and skills) would be fine.

mikegundy

Excellent post Cyrus. Agree with everything said but I'm afraid it falls on deaf ears. It's painfully obvious that they don't care about actual balance or about even learning their game. Why and how is it so hard to listen to your players that have been playing for years and actually know whats wrong with this game.

IAVITNI

Biro123 wrote: »

The problem with listening to the players, though - is which players are they listening to?

It is very obvious who to listen to if one actually possess knowledge of the game.

IAVITNI

Kolache wrote: »

People *** about blocking nerfs and how it would ruin tanking and ruin PvE. PvE survived.

The tanking issue wasn't as big as this, first of all. Second, the major point at that time was that it was preventing newer players from enjoying tanking. It also took 3 patches for ZoS to get it right and it ended up hurting non-block builds more than block builds throughout the whole ordeal.

Kolache wrote: »

People *** about sustain nerfs and heavy-attack requirements, people found ways around that.

Notice how ZoS has been increasing sustain ever since Morrowind?

Kolache wrote: »

People will adapt to the changes that make it through this PTS cycle too.

How does one adapt when all the options are homogenized?

People aren't complaining about the changes, at least the intelligent ones aren't. They are complaining about the reasoning and methods of these changes.

If ZoS removes the primary defence of an entire class and armor weight, there should be some form of compensation. There was none.

ZoS was made aware of of a targeting issue and imbalance in movement speed. They nerf all movement speed without actually addressing the issue, effectively removing a change they introduced not one patch ago.

ZoS is attempting to homogenize classes. Must I explain the folly of this?

Doctordarkspawn

I remain convinced the entirety of these problems stem from one man and his inability to concede that he is not the supreme executive power when it comes to deciding what a issue is and how to fix it.

And we all know his name.