Rapid Maneuvers - Balance before Live

Vilestride · October 2018

Sandman929 wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

Rapids have no use in combat. Hardly something worth nerfing.

kojou wrote: »

I'm not sure if I have ecountered one of these Rapid Maneuvers spamming zergs, but I'll take your word for it that they exist.

Every endgame PVP raid has a rapidbot (or two) in their group. Keeping rapid up all the time is the central point of group mobility. Its real function is the de-snaring/snare-immunity though, the speed is just a secondary (and very welcome) effect.

@kojou Whenever you have been run down by a ball group that was not slowed down by caltrops, you were encountering at least one rapid spammer

I've been run down by lots of ball groups... They also had heal spamming, AoE damage spamming, and buff spamming. Those crazy guys had people that specialized in all kinds of spamming. It almost like having superior numbers gave them a tactical advantage.

It's also almost like dedicated roles and group coordination is useful in fights. It's almost like that.

That's crazy. You guys are crazy people. Your crazy ideas are not welcome here.

Vilestride · October 2018

Delete. Double post

usmcjdking · October 2018

Vilestride wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

Rapids have no use in combat. Hardly something worth nerfing.

kojou wrote: »

I'm not sure if I have ecountered one of these Rapid Maneuvers spamming zergs, but I'll take your word for it that they exist.

Every endgame PVP raid has a rapidbot (or two) in their group. Keeping rapid up all the time is the central point of group mobility. Its real function is the de-snaring/snare-immunity though, the speed is just a secondary (and very welcome) effect.

@kojou Whenever you have been run down by a ball group that was not slowed down by caltrops, you were encountering at least one rapid spammer

I've been run down by lots of ball groups... They also had heal spamming, AoE damage spamming, and buff spamming. Those crazy guys had people that specialized in all kinds of spamming. It almost like having superior numbers gave them a tactical advantage.

It's also almost like dedicated roles and group coordination is useful in fights. It's almost like that.

That's crazy. You guys are crazy people. Your crazy ideas ard not welcome here.

You cannot say that consistently spamming a skill to bypass it's intended detrimental effect is anything but exploitative in nature.

FearlessOne_2014 · October 2018

Crixus8000 wrote: »

I agree, it needs to be balanced out, if solo/smallscale has been nerfed with speed then large groups shouldn't be able to keep it up 100% of the time either, or the smaller group won't be able to escape.

I agree all the way. @ZOS_GinaBruno please look into this.

Synapsis123 · October 2018

One person has to spam the skill while 23 other people can have 100% uptime on both immunity to snare and roots and 30% movement speed with no effort or thought. Zenimax made the cost high to avoid this type of thing, but due to the game balance you can still easily do it.

FearlessOne_2014 · October 2018

Synapsis123 wrote: »

One person has to spam the skill while 23 other people can have 100% uptime on both immunity to snare and roots and 30% movement speed with no effort or thought. Zenimax made the cost high to avoid this type of thing, but due to the game balance you can still easily do it.

To be simply put. It needs to be put in line with the other Major Expedition changes.

IxSTALKERxI · October 2018

Ok I need to chime in here before a stupid change is made.

IF it is decided that rapid maneuvers needs to be adjusted to nerf larger groups than I suggest the following:

- Reduce target cap to either 12 or 6 targets (depending on how big of a nerf is required), 6 would put it in line with healing / buff caps in the game. (I have seen the number four suggested, do not do this, this is too low and won't fit in properly with current group comp design.)

- Reduce the cost by only 25-30%. You don't want to make this skill too cheap. This will account for the extra times you need to cast it.

Stalker's Comment:

This change would result in one dedicated rapids spammer taking anywhere from 2-4 seconds to apply the buff to the whole group, depending on whether 12 or 6 is chosen. It is not as simple as having multiple rapid spammers as successful group composition ratios will be hindered severely if you attempt to have more than one. As a result, there is a chance that a very large group of 12+ can be separated if attacked at the right time, providing more counter play.

This will not have any negative effect on group sizes of 6 (/12) or less, and the skill will be more affordable.

IZZEFlameLash · October 2018

I guess people want to enjoy riding around Cyrodiil running out of stam? Lol.

ShadowProc · October 2018

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

If you ever seen GOOD BALL GROUP not some potatoes you would see how strong rapids are. Solo player will never afford to slot them and use them in combat, but when you can have a person who will spam it for you on demand... Things are getting crazy then.

So why is it fine to have dedicated roles in PvE but suddenly so "crazy" to do so in a PvP group?

Was wondering when the ball groups would come!

There is ZERO REASON this skill should stay as is with all the other speed nerfs. No one can keep a straight face and defend that the advantage of maneuvering for ball groups will get ALOT bigger if this stays as is with all the other nerfs.

Zos please reduce the amount affected by it to max of 6 please for the love of balance.

ShadowProc · October 2018

DHale wrote: »

I stopped coming to the forum for months. So many players ruining this game. Players requesting nerfs and patch after patch zerging more and getting worse and worse at playing. Recently, I took a resource solo and boom I got insta gibbed by a scatter shot four players put up siege to kill me. Now I come to the forum to see people debating rapid maneuvers. Lmao... pathetic.

What's pathetic is you offer no counter point. Did you even read? Why should this skill stay untouched with all the nerfs to other major expeditions?

Because you play in a large group. The advantage in numbers is already there. No reason to have another huge advantage in mobility.

IxSTALKERxI · October 2018

ShadowProc wrote: »

Because you play in a large group. The advantage in numbers is already there. No reason to have another huge advantage in mobility.

Not necessarily. A group of 12 players may not always have numbers advantage. They are often outnumbered by 40-50 players, some ungrouped, others in 4 mans etc and a bunch using siege.

I can understand hate towards 24 man raids. But there is definitely nothing wrong with group size up to 12 imo, they don't need a large nerf.

DeadlyRecluse · October 2018

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I can understand hate towards 24 man raids. But there is definitely nothing wrong with group size up to 12 imo, they don't need a large nerf.

I don't either--I don't even think there's anything inherently wrong with 24 man raids, depending on context.

And I don't think anyone in this thread is saying "groups of X size are inherently OP, nerf groups." The reasoning is more: solo players are losing a ton of mobility due to ability changes, but the one unchanged ability is disproportionately more useful when a group gets big enough to have a designated spammer.

i.e., it's not the group size people necessarily have a problem with (though some obviously do), it's that medium-large groups can continue to play in the speed meta with almost no adjustments while everyone else can't.

del9 · October 2018

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RobGarrett

I don’t want you to miss this thread. Let us know you are looking at it, so we can make sure all perspectives are heard.

Although this is an AvA skill, and should be balanced around that primarily, I know endgame PVErs use it and want to consider everyone.

Thanks for working with us!

visionality · October 2018

The_Shadowborn wrote: »

Ok reading this thread it is clear many people have never ran in a "ball group".
In a ball/guild group people specialize to be efficient in their role. They work as one to achieve the goal of killing as many people as possible.
Idk if it's a EU thing but ball groups don't run down single targets and are generally 16 man or less taking on triple if not more their number.

Considering your statement, this obviously is an EU thing. The majority of ball groups on EU server only play X vs less or X vx same number of unorganized randoms and they love to run down single players - that includes chasing solo players with the full 24 man zerg. We even have super ball groups where 2 24-man-groups (with rapidbots, purgers, CC-spammers and coordinated destro-ultis) work together to take keeps defended by randoms.

The last time I saw two organized high-end groups willingly fight each other outside a keep or outpost is more than nine months ago. Usually organized PVP groups avoid each other because killing randoms is easier AP.

Its sad and probably telling a lot about the state of PVP on the EU servers.

ShadowProc · October 2018

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Because you play in a large group. The advantage in numbers is already there. No reason to have another huge advantage in mobility.

Not necessarily. A group of 12 players may not always have numbers advantage. They are often outnumbered by 40-50 players, some ungrouped, others in 4 mans etc and a bunch using siege.

I can understand hate towards 24 man raids. But there is definitely nothing wrong with group size up to 12 imo, they don't need a large nerf.

I dont hate them. I have played in them. But others have shown me the way soloing and small scale. It is WAY harder.

If I want to run Rapids I have to make a huge sacrifice and use up 1 of 10 skill slots. If you do it in a large raid you use 1 of 160 slots for a 16 man raid or 1 of 240 for 24 man.

How is that balanced? It SHOULD NOT affect the whole raid. 6 players at most. There has to be counter play and a chance to break them up.

Right now there is no counter play. From my experience in the large raids the ones that were better were those that kept Rapids and purges up the most when fighting outnumbered. Which it should be to be honest

But the problem is now that they nerfed solo or small groups maneuverability, they MUST do it for larger groups as well for balance.

If I were still playing large raids right now I would be laughing my butt off about how we were left unscathed and how much an advantage we would have

Nerf Rapids zos please or more pugs will leave. They have to have a shot at killing groups or they will become disheartened and leave.

I solo 95% of the time now and am speaking as a exclusive large scale player for the first 3 years.

The_Shadowborn · October 2018

visionality wrote: »

The_Shadowborn wrote: »

Ok reading this thread it is clear many people have never ran in a "ball group".
In a ball/guild group people specialize to be efficient in their role. They work as one to achieve the goal of killing as many people as possible.
Idk if it's a EU thing but ball groups don't run down single targets and are generally 16 man or less taking on triple if not more their number.

Considering your statement, this obviously is an EU thing. The majority of ball groups on EU server only play X vs less or X vx same number of unorganized randoms and they love to run down single players - that includes chasing solo players with the full 24 man zerg. We even have super ball groups where 2 24-man-groups (with rapidbots, purgers, CC-spammers and coordinated destro-ultis) work together to take keeps defended by randoms.

The last time I saw two organized high-end groups willingly fight each other outside a keep or outpost is more than nine months ago. Usually organized PVP groups avoid each other because killing randoms is easier AP.

Its sad and probably telling a lot about the state of PVP on the EU servers.

You need to realise when I say ball groups I mean groups that are going out there fighting the whole alliance. As yes there's some groups that try to be a ball group but when they actually meet an organised guild group they die in a matter of seconds, doesn't matter if they are 24 man or 50man.

On Vivec there isn't really any organised guild groups anymore, theres Noxious and Zerg Squad they are both predominantly EP. Who don't run more than 18 and only do that when they are against a whole faction back keeping or messing with scrolls.

We don't care about AP tbh we all already have more than we know what to do with, all we want are some good fights which means normally being massively outnumbered or against another Guild; that pop up on either side from time to time. There's no fun in Zerging people down, we leave small scalers alone unless they for some reason they try to fight then it is a fight on their terms and they know the odds.

I invite you to one of our raids to actually see what goes on, message me ingame if you want to see a proper Guild Group.

@W_Shadowborn

Wuuffyy · October 2018

Olquorron wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno are devs aware of this oversight?

Really? Since your okay with this are you okay with me nerfing your character to deal 1 dps and heal 1 hps?

maxlacab16_ESO · October 2018

With all the time sinks in this game, speed was the only way it remained some fun to play. Take that away, and the game is overall super boring.
And OP, you newb, get your head out of your a**.
LTP and stop complaining about things you dont understand!

themdogesbite · October 2018

How was this a issue for the 3.5 years Swift wasn't even in the game?

ShadowProc · October 2018

themdogesbite wrote: »

How was this a issue for the 3.5 years Swift wasn't even in the game?

It was. Lol. It's what allows groups to destroy ungrouped players. It literally comes down to this and purge affecting way too many players.

Ithink alot of you defending this skill are either in the large coordinated raids who now how OP it is or have never been in a large effective raid. Because if you have you would know how OP it is.

Skeough11 · October 2018

ShadowProc wrote: »

themdogesbite wrote: »

How was this a issue for the 3.5 years Swift wasn't even in the game?

It was. Lol. It's what allows groups to destroy ungrouped players. It literally comes down to this and purge affecting way too many players.

Ithink alot of you defending this skill are either in the large coordinated raids who now how OP it is or have never been in a large effective raid. Because if you have you would know how OP it is.

Huh and here I was thinking it was the organisation and teamwork that let group wipe non groups. Oh how silly I am.

del9 · October 2018

maxlacab16_ESO wrote: »

With all the time sinks in this game, speed was the only way it remained some fun to play. Take that away, and the game is overall super boring.
And OP, you newb, get your head out of your a**.
LTP and stop complaining about things you dont understand!

Not sure if serious or troll

But if you are, the duration of rapids’ buffs, and the ability to cast it on yourself will be unaffected by my proposed changes.

Don’t worry, you can still farm mats at full speed!

ShadowProc · October 2018

Skeough11 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

themdogesbite wrote: »

How was this a issue for the 3.5 years Swift wasn't even in the game?

It was. Lol. It's what allows groups to destroy ungrouped players. It literally comes down to this and purge affecting way too many players.

Ithink alot of you defending this skill are either in the large coordinated raids who now how OP it is or have never been in a large effective raid. Because if you have you would know how OP it is.

Huh and here I was thinking it was the organisation and teamwork that let group wipe non groups. Oh how silly I am.

Lmao. Not what I said at all. I didn't think I needed to say stay close to crown and build for group properly.

But when groups wipe it's because of one or both of those things.

And no that's not what wipes non groups. It's what wipes other groups. Wiping pugs is by far the easiest thing to do in this game with a coordinated group spamming purges and Rapids and taking turns destro'ing.

Cinbri · October 2018

Snare immunity is what making skill OP and out of line with new mechanics of speed rules. Its high cost is payback for granting long speed buff so it should not be touched to not hurt pve and "alliance war"; but having root immunity on top of it is overkill, giving how it used in pvp duration of snare immunity is not important.
So, I suggest to keep it long speed buff(maybe even make it to no longer dissapear with activating skills) but remove providing snare immunity, giving breath to both morphs choices.

And I suggest zos to not ignore this problem by nerfing all solo speed skills and ignore "zerg"-one. Just partly fixing snare problem previously, instead of making situation better, only ended with more disastrous meta and lot of nerfs this update, do not repeat same mistake again.

Vilestride · October 2018

The most rational compromise is reduce the buff time to 2 seconds. Leave major gallop as is. Ease peeze.

del9 · October 2018

Vilestride wrote: »

The most rational compromise is reduce the buff time to 2 seconds. Leave major gallop as is. Ease peeze.

Lol c’mon now. Sounds like someone who runs in a giant ball zerg with 2 players hitting this skill every 2 seconds combined. Unlearned readers may think that a 2 second duration sounds like an extreme nerf, and I admire your tactics here, but we are not fooled that you are trying to protect the very playstyle that this skill already benefits in the extreme with your slyness. The skill has enough mechanics that make duration basically irrelevant if you have enough players to devote to its uptime.

The most rational change is to reduce the number of allies affected. I’m sure you can find enough open skill slots in your group. Really curious what size it is!

The next most rational change would to be reduce the radius to that of a vigor, or even 12 meters.

DeadlyRecluse · October 2018

Remember when rapids hit your group anywhere on the map? RIP temple gate spammer...

Thogard · October 2018

How do ball groups determine who gets chosen to be the rapids spammer?

Do you guys draw straws? Rock Paper Scissors? Is it the newest guy on a “pledging” basis?

technohic · October 2018

Thogard wrote: »

How do ball groups determine who gets chosen to be the rapids spammer?

Do you guys draw straws? Rock Paper Scissors? Is it the newest guy on a “pledging” basis?

It has to be pretty similar to the purge spammers. Low rank for sure though as the high rank probably still want that feeling that they actually killed someone while the peons keep them clean.

Kingslayer513 · October 2018

del9 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

But where will group buff nerf demands by small scalers end?
Healing?
Orbs?
Shards?
Crit resistance?
After all this is an MMO and should be balanced for group play.
Small scale exists but is not the focus of Cyrodiil AvAvA.
I am now starting to get the us vs them feeling and maybe should be thinking about chasing down small scalers which my guild typically doesn't do unless attacked.

You are now being toxic and clearly are missing the huge imbalance issue here. I’ll just refer you to zos’s words once again.

"Due to the pass on mobility, we wanted to ensure you couldn't readily keep this buff active 100% without spending more attention to it."

If the argument is based on ZOS's words, then I would think that having one person in a group literally dedicated to spamming rapids is pretty much the definition of spending lots of attention to it.

For what it's worth, I think the target cap is too high. Reducing the cap to 12 players while changing nothing else would leave PVE unharmed (12 man PVE uses rapids a lot) and would tone it down in large group pvp without nuking its use for medium group pvp.

I think it's really pathetic that people are calling for it to be gutted by removing major expedition all together. As if ZOS hasn't slowed everything down enough already.