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Rapid Maneuvers - Balance before Live
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kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »visionality wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »Rapids have no use in combat. Hardly something worth nerfing.I'm not sure if I have ecountered one of these Rapid Maneuvers spamming zergs, but I'll take your word for it that they exist.
Every endgame PVP raid has a rapidbot (or two) in their group. Keeping rapid up all the time is the central point of group mobility. Its real function is the de-snaring/snare-immunity though, the speed is just a secondary (and very welcome) effect.
@kojou Whenever you have been run down by a ball group that was not slowed down by caltrops, you were encountering at least one rapid spammer
I've been run down by lots of ball groups... They also had heal spamming, AoE damage spamming, and buff spamming. Those crazy guys had people that specialized in all kinds of spamming. It almost like having superior numbers gave them a tactical advantage.
And you agree on the necessarity to widen the gap even more?
No I just don't see how changing rapid solves it.Playing since beta...0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »visionality wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »Rapids have no use in combat. Hardly something worth nerfing.I'm not sure if I have ecountered one of these Rapid Maneuvers spamming zergs, but I'll take your word for it that they exist.
Every endgame PVP raid has a rapidbot (or two) in their group. Keeping rapid up all the time is the central point of group mobility. Its real function is the de-snaring/snare-immunity though, the speed is just a secondary (and very welcome) effect.
@kojou Whenever you have been run down by a ball group that was not slowed down by caltrops, you were encountering at least one rapid spammer
I've been run down by lots of ball groups... They also had heal spamming, AoE damage spamming, and buff spamming. Those crazy guys had people that specialized in all kinds of spamming. It almost like having superior numbers gave them a tactical advantage.
And you agree on the necessarity to widen the gap even more?
No I just don't see how changing rapid solves it.
It would at least level the playing field. Gutting only those skills that you can keep up outside of dedicated groups while leaving the group tools untouched should ring alarm bells for everyone outside of said groups.5 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »visionality wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »Rapids have no use in combat. Hardly something worth nerfing.I'm not sure if I have ecountered one of these Rapid Maneuvers spamming zergs, but I'll take your word for it that they exist.
Every endgame PVP raid has a rapidbot (or two) in their group. Keeping rapid up all the time is the central point of group mobility. Its real function is the de-snaring/snare-immunity though, the speed is just a secondary (and very welcome) effect.
@kojou Whenever you have been run down by a ball group that was not slowed down by caltrops, you were encountering at least one rapid spammer
I've been run down by lots of ball groups... They also had heal spamming, AoE damage spamming, and buff spamming. Those crazy guys had people that specialized in all kinds of spamming. It almost like having superior numbers gave them a tactical advantage.
And you agree on the necessarity to widen the gap even more?
No I just don't see how changing rapid solves it.
It would at least level the playing field. Gutting only those skills that you can keep up outside of dedicated groups while leaving the group tools untouched should ring alarm bells for everyone outside of said groups.
Everyone can use rapids, solo, small group or large group.
If your build can't sustain then no hope for you anyway.2 -
The_Shadowborn✭✭✭Ok reading this thread it is clear many people have never ran in a "ball group".
In a ball/guild group people specialize to be efficient in their role. They work as one to achieve the goal of killing as many people as possible.
Idk if it's a EU thing but ball groups don't run down single targets and are generally 16 man or less taking on triple if not more their number.
And if you think a group of 6 good men should be able to kill them your insane don't penalize people for working together. Rapids is a key tool for these groups to move though the siege an alliance puts down. And them having to dedicate someone to keep it up that only role is to keep the buff up is a cost don't nurf a skill because people build around utilizing it.
That's like nurfing Springs as healers use that skill to heal it's their job and they have to spec into it.
I agree with the statement that people are only QQing this as the other forms of speed got nurfed and they don't realise the sacrifice that medium groups 9-16 make to fit that role in.
Try actually coordinating making raid builds testing the best grouo compositions actually learn what you're talking about. Don't just take something you saw in a YouTube vedio at face value and spread their thinking without looking into the ramifications.
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Gaggin✭✭✭✭I think some people sre just upset because their 6 man cant take on a 24 man. Zos is nerfing speed because stammies could outrun damage and make it hard to target. This doesnt apply to rapids cus you cant engage without losing the buff. Large groups also have dedicated healbots and purgebots. Doesnt make tbose OP.
Also think about it, when has catching a ball group ever been a problem like that? 24 players move alot slower together than 4, its hard to stay on crown.
One more point, doesnt nb twisted path also give groups the buff now? Thats super easy to spam and doesnt get removed by abilities.4 -
Crixus8000✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree, it needs to be balanced out, if solo/smallscale has been nerfed with speed then large groups shouldn't be able to keep it up 100% of the time either, or the smaller group won't be able to escape.Edited by Crixus8000 on October 9, 2018 3:53PM3 -
Crixus8000✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Shadowborn wrote: »
I agree with the statement that people are only QQing this as the other forms of speed got nurfed and they don't realise the sacrifice that medium groups 9-16 make to fit that role in.
If solo/smallscale can't have speed to escape or even fight back then why should massive groups be able to roll over us because we can't use los ? Large groups wanted speed nerfed but want to keep theirs 100% ? it is not fair that the smaller players should have to move so slow when they are already outnumbered while the larger group can go at full speed with little loss.
Edited by Crixus8000 on October 9, 2018 3:53PM4 -
DivineFirstYOLO✭✭✭✭Crixus8000 wrote: »The_Shadowborn wrote: »
I agree with the statement that people are only QQing this as the other forms of speed got nurfed and they don't realise the sacrifice that medium groups 9-16 make to fit that role in.
If solo/smallscale can't have speed to escape or even fight back then why should massive groups be able to roll over us because we can't use los ? Large groups wanted speed nerfed but want to keep theirs 100% ?, it is not fair that the smaller players should have to move so slow when they are already outnumbered while the larger group can go at full speed with little loss.
No, Xv1 noobs want movement nerfed, ball groups just want to do their thing and play outnumbered against all odds (or - even better - against other groups). Why would ball groups care to farm smale scalers? How much AP do they give and how much of a fun challenge would it be? Close to 0.
I wasn't for the speed nerfs and I hope WE (cause I also play solo when we don't have a raid up) will get our stuff back one day. In my opinion small scalers and ball groups have the same enemy - the people that hide in stealth waiting for the moment they can outnumber you.
A suggestion (not my idea, but very smart in my opinion): make maneuver cost 500 (just an example) stam for every player hit - that way small scalers and bigger groups can use the skill.Zerg Squad
Godslayer x 4
Pro questing fees for RPers in Cyrodiil, pay your taxes!
PC - EU2 -
Crixus8000✭✭✭✭✭
✭DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »Crixus8000 wrote: »The_Shadowborn wrote: »
I agree with the statement that people are only QQing this as the other forms of speed got nurfed and they don't realise the sacrifice that medium groups 9-16 make to fit that role in.
If solo/smallscale can't have speed to escape or even fight back then why should massive groups be able to roll over us because we can't use los ? Large groups wanted speed nerfed but want to keep theirs 100% ?, it is not fair that the smaller players should have to move so slow when they are already outnumbered while the larger group can go at full speed with little loss.
No, Xv1 noobs want movement nerfed, ball groups just want to do their thing and play outnumbered against all odds (or - even better - against other groups). Why would ball groups care to farm smale scalers? How much AP do they give and how much of a fun challenge would it be? Close to 0.
I wasn't for the speed nerfs and I hope WE (cause I also play solo when we don't have a raid up) will get our stuff back one day. In my opinion small scalers and ball groups have the same enemy - the people that hide in stealth waiting for the moment they can outnumber you.
A suggestion (not my idea, but very smart in my opinion): make maneuver cost 500 (just an example) stam for every player hit - that way small scalers and bigger groups can use the skill.
I didn't mean the more experienced ball groups that don't charge solo players, sorry I should have been more clear on that, I just meant any large group that you often see chasing solo or smaller groups for such a long time. It will be very unbalanced now with solo/smallscale moving so slow while larger groups can chase them with higher speed. But yes good point, it will also affect ball groups who don't chase and play like that and tbh I hate the idea of ruining anyone elses play style. But I don't think the change you proposed will help with solo play, that mean's wasting a bar slot, and with how solo play works needing to stay in constant los to survive the groups it would mean just spamming rapids over and over. This is just so annoying, I don't remember any complaints before swift was introduced now we have this...
Edited by Crixus8000 on October 9, 2018 4:15PM1 -
Bitmun✭✭✭The problem is not even the ball groups, come on. First of all, we all got slowed and now it's just boring and pointless to pick a class for solo which relies on mobility (ALL MELEE SPECS W/O A BOW OR QuIcK ClOaK). The problem is that fast-paced MMO is becoming something completely different and unfun. :P1 -
The_Shadowborn✭✭✭Crixus8000 wrote: »The_Shadowborn wrote: »
I agree with the statement that people are only QQing this as the other forms of speed got nurfed and they don't realise the sacrifice that medium groups 9-16 make to fit that role in.
If solo/smallscale can't have speed to escape or even fight back then why should massive groups be able to roll over us because we can't use los ? Large groups wanted speed nerfed but want to keep theirs 100% ? it is not fair that the smaller players should have to move so slow when they are already outnumbered while the larger group can go at full speed with little loss.
I don't know who you're talking about organised guild groups don't generally zerg down smaller groups is not time efficient and anyway if the small scallers are half decent then they can mostly anticipate what a group is going to do and counter it.
Think you're complaining about the general faction zergs that don't have 100% up time on rapids and that are easy to avaid ans fight if you attack them in the right places.
It's common sense that if you're fighting 2x your number in open field that you should die pick your battles.
As you have smaller numbers mobility should be faster as you all should be able to react faster than a group twice your size.
Just feel that you're expecting the game to give you everything on a platter work for it.
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Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »Some of you people are full of hate towards other playstyles, its shocking. Because small scale got nerfed, you feel like medium groups should be nerfed aswell?
Do you seriously think you will be able to wipe good medium groups after a nerf to maneuver? As a smaller group?
Only undercover zerg surfers and trolls would ask for more nerfs - which one are you?
..and I know at least one ball group on EP NA that will continue to dominate the server even if you nerf the *** out of them. Want to know why? Because they are doing their homework, testing stuff on PTS, theory crafting, etc - unlike some wannabee small scalers that use meta sets on their stam wardens and feel like they are skilled elite players.
This is going to be one of the worst patches, because ZOS is listening to all the whiners on the forums.
It's not about being able to take down bigger group but it's about being able to survive their rush. Because with rapids they can outrun any player that doesn't use rapids. Use rapids you say? And gimp build to be able to run from zerg while they don't have to change anything because they can afford to have rapids spamer?I'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.1 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »Some of you people are full of hate towards other playstyles, its shocking. Because small scale got nerfed, you feel like medium groups should be nerfed aswell?
Do you seriously think you will be able to wipe good medium groups after a nerf to maneuver? As a smaller group?
Only undercover zerg surfers and trolls would ask for more nerfs - which one are you?
..and I know at least one ball group on EP NA that will continue to dominate the server even if you nerf the *** out of them. Want to know why? Because they are doing their homework, testing stuff on PTS, theory crafting, etc - unlike some wannabee small scalers that use meta sets on their stam wardens and feel like they are skilled elite players.
This is going to be one of the worst patches, because ZOS is listening to all the whiners on the forums.
It's not about being able to take down bigger group but it's about being able to survive their rush. Because with rapids they can outrun any player that doesn't use rapids. Use rapids you say? And gimp build to be able to run from zerg while they don't have to change anything because they can afford to have rapids spamer?
Any decent stamina damage build has a large stamina pool and can afford to use rapids.2 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »visionality wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »Rapids have no use in combat. Hardly something worth nerfing.I'm not sure if I have ecountered one of these Rapid Maneuvers spamming zergs, but I'll take your word for it that they exist.
Every endgame PVP raid has a rapidbot (or two) in their group. Keeping rapid up all the time is the central point of group mobility. Its real function is the de-snaring/snare-immunity though, the speed is just a secondary (and very welcome) effect.
@kojou Whenever you have been run down by a ball group that was not slowed down by caltrops, you were encountering at least one rapid spammer
I've been run down by lots of ball groups... They also had heal spamming, AoE damage spamming, and buff spamming. Those crazy guys had people that specialized in all kinds of spamming. It almost like having superior numbers gave them a tactical advantage.
And you agree on the necessarity to widen the gap even more?
No I just don't see how changing rapid solves it.
It would at least level the playing field. Gutting only those skills that you can keep up outside of dedicated groups while leaving the group tools untouched should ring alarm bells for everyone outside of said groups.
Everyone can use rapids, solo, small group or large group.
If your build can't sustain then no hope for you anyway.
Now show me your solo/ small scale set up that allows you to slot rapids without gimping your build. And by that I don't mean having it on OL.1 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »visionality wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »Rapids have no use in combat. Hardly something worth nerfing.I'm not sure if I have ecountered one of these Rapid Maneuvers spamming zergs, but I'll take your word for it that they exist.
Every endgame PVP raid has a rapidbot (or two) in their group. Keeping rapid up all the time is the central point of group mobility. Its real function is the de-snaring/snare-immunity though, the speed is just a secondary (and very welcome) effect.
@kojou Whenever you have been run down by a ball group that was not slowed down by caltrops, you were encountering at least one rapid spammer
I've been run down by lots of ball groups... They also had heal spamming, AoE damage spamming, and buff spamming. Those crazy guys had people that specialized in all kinds of spamming. It almost like having superior numbers gave them a tactical advantage.
And you agree on the necessarity to widen the gap even more?
No I just don't see how changing rapid solves it.
It would at least level the playing field. Gutting only those skills that you can keep up outside of dedicated groups while leaving the group tools untouched should ring alarm bells for everyone outside of said groups.
Everyone can use rapids, solo, small group or large group.
If your build can't sustain then no hope for you anyway.
Now show me your solo/ small scale set up that allows you to slot rapids without gimping your build. And by that I don't mean having it on OL.
How does it gimp my build? Oh wait I am not a shuffle spammer.
Besides it isn't like you constantly spam rapids it lasts 32 seconds.Edited by TequilaFire on October 9, 2018 4:41PM1 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »Some of you people are full of hate towards other playstyles, its shocking. Because small scale got nerfed, you feel like medium groups should be nerfed aswell?
Do you seriously think you will be able to wipe good medium groups after a nerf to maneuver? As a smaller group?
Only undercover zerg surfers and trolls would ask for more nerfs - which one are you?
..and I know at least one ball group on EP NA that will continue to dominate the server even if you nerf the *** out of them. Want to know why? Because they are doing their homework, testing stuff on PTS, theory crafting, etc - unlike some wannabee small scalers that use meta sets on their stam wardens and feel like they are skilled elite players.
This is going to be one of the worst patches, because ZOS is listening to all the whiners on the forums.
It's not about being able to take down bigger group but it's about being able to survive their rush. Because with rapids they can outrun any player that doesn't use rapids. Use rapids you say? And gimp build to be able to run from zerg while they don't have to change anything because they can afford to have rapids spamer?
Any decent stamina damage build has a large stamina pool and can afford to use rapids.
You do have a point and I would consider it when needing to get out of the way of these groups myself. The big difference is, I would limit it for an escape/reposition and not spam it as 1 time is probably cheaper over 32 seconds than hitting any speed and root/snare immunity a total of 8 times in that same time span. The difference really comes in the groups where they have a dedicated user to spam it so that the rest can stay on the offensive and render all soft CC anyone uses on them useless at the same time while they nerfed all the alternatives where independent single player builds could keep up to be able to do that exact same thing
It really is a case of "They took mine away so take it away from others." I'm not afraid to admit that. I even do a little bit of both solo running and my fair share of zerging, but It's why its called "balance." I can see where its going to be easier in a group and harder solo now. Im with the OP and would rather they had left well enough alone or done something different, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander.Edited by technohic on October 9, 2018 5:28PM4 -
casparian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭How about instead of nerfing Rapids' duration, we nerf its group application? If it only applied to, say, one other person, it would make it harder for ball groups to get the unlimited mobility ZOS apparently doesn't want without changing the way individual players or PVE farmers use it.7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.3 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭But where will group buff nerf demands by small scalers end?
Healing?
Orbs?
Shards?
Crit resistance?
After all this is an MMO and should be balanced for group play.
Small scale exists but is not the focus of Cyrodiil AvAvA.
I am now starting to get the us vs them feeling and maybe should be thinking about chasing down small scalers which my guild typically doesn't do unless attacked.Edited by TequilaFire on October 9, 2018 5:45PM4 -
del9✭✭✭✭How about instead of nerfing Rapids' duration, we nerf its group application? If it only applied to, say, one other person, it would make it harder for ball groups to get the unlimited mobility ZOS apparently doesn't want without changing the way individual players or PVE farmers use it.
Yes, this is exactly what myself and the other concerned parties are asking for. Duration is not the problem with the skill, as many things can cause it to drop. It’s that 1 player can buff an entire group with it, and the vast majority of the group is expending nothing to have access to the buffs.
Reducing the number of allies you can buff with the skill makes too much sense. Not only for us small scalers QQing about ball groups, but for ZOS who has very clearly articulated that they qant players to sacrifice more in order to have access to ME and snare immunity.PCNA1 -
del9✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »But where will group buff nerf demands by small scalers end?
Healing?
Orbs?
Shards?
Crit resistance?
After all this is an MMO and should be balanced for group play.
Small scale exists but is not the focus of Cyrodiil AvAvA.
I am now starting to get the us vs them feeling and maybe should be thinking about chasing down small scalers which my guild typically doesn't do unless attacked.
You are now being toxic and clearly are missing the huge imbalance issue here. I’ll just refer you to zos’s words once again.
"Due to the pass on mobility, we wanted to ensure you couldn't readily keep this buff active 100% without spending more attention to it."
PCNA2 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »But where will group buff nerf demands by small scalers end?
Healing?
Orbs?
Shards?
Crit resistance?
After all this is an MMO and should be balanced for group play.
Small scale exists but is not the focus of Cyrodiil AvAvA.
I am now starting to get the us vs them feeling and maybe should be thinking about chasing down small scalers which my guild typically doesn't do unless attacked.
You are now being toxic and clearly are missing the huge imbalance issue here. I’ll just refer you to zos’s words once again.
"Due to the pass on mobility, we wanted to ensure you couldn't readily keep this buff active 100% without spending more attention to it."
How was that toxic? And Rapids does have a huge cost associated with it. Just because groups organize their skills classes and buffs is no reason to nerf things. Small scale can't get away with just optimizing for damage without regard for building for survivability as well.Edited by TequilaFire on October 9, 2018 6:01PM3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I usually run solo and have had no issues with this skill. I do use it and quickly slot another skill when entering combat.
It is a great skill as it is designed.
Using OP's logic that groups benefit more from this the same could be said of heals and purges. I think it is clear group skills are beneficial in MMORPGs.Edited by idk on October 9, 2018 6:15PM3 -
casparian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »But where will group buff nerf demands by small scalers end?
Healing?
Orbs?
Shards?
Crit resistance?
After all this is an MMO and should be balanced for group play.
Small scale exists but is not the focus of Cyrodiil AvAvA.
I am now starting to get the us vs them feeling and maybe should be thinking about chasing down small scalers which my guild typically doesn't do unless attacked.
Strawmen again. Comparing a nerf to Rapids to a nerf to healing or group sustain is apples to oranges. As it currently functions, Rapids allows ball groups to play as though as snares and roots -- a core game mechanic -- did not exist. (Even as powerful as things like healstacking and Orbs/Shards are, it certainly doesn't allow groups of any size to proceed as though incoming damage, sustain needs, etc. simply aren't a part of the game.) Small scalers used to have a way to do this as well (FM + Swift + speed potions), but they no longer do. If ZOS thinks it's a problem for one style of group to ignore a core game mechanic, why would they think it is alright for large groups to do so?7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.4 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭One more time everyone can use rapids not just ball groups. And the same FM+Swift+speed potions got taken away from groups.
What this is really about is some lost their OP swift builds and want revenge.
Fine, nerf rapids the results are going to be the same.Edited by TequilaFire on October 9, 2018 6:28PM5 -
del9✭✭✭✭@casparian pay that one no mind. They are just trying to derail a constructive and thought-out discussion. The facts and concerns are laid out plain for the developers to see, and that is all that matters.
Constructive feedback and genuine concern from others including PVE mains is welcomed and we have been receptive to it.PCNA0 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Words
^that's pretty much it.
I'm not even sure--yet--how to feel about the entire toning down of movement speed this patch. I'm cautiously optimistic.
But it is extremely strange that one specific playstyle gets a free pass.
At the same time, I'd really like rapids to continue to be useful in (what I assume to be) it's intended purposes: getting around quickly on horsies and as an expensive, timed buff to retreat away from fights.
Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub3 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No I am giving a counter view, just because I don't agree with you doesn't make it wrong.
In no way did I present facts that would derail this thread.
Not everyone agrees with your point of view.
A forum is for debate.
But this has now turned into an argument with personal attack so I will leave it at that.
Edited by TequilaFire on October 9, 2018 6:41PM1 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How about instead of nerfing Rapids' duration, we nerf its group application? If it only applied to, say, one other person, it would make it harder for ball groups to get the unlimited mobility ZOS apparently doesn't want without changing the way individual players or PVE farmers use it.
If anything were going to change with the intent of weakening group play, it would have to be something other than the duration. The duration is meaningless in a group where players are dedicated to refreshing a buff that already expires quickly during a fight.
I guess that would mean that ZOS would have to clarify exactly what they're targeting with their expedition changes. Is it that some are moving too fast (beyond simply expedition) or that groups have players supplying group mobility? If Rapids doesn't get any attention in light of all the other mobility changes it definitely says something about ZOS favoring organized groups.3 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »I guess that would mean that ZOS would have to clarify exactly what they're targeting with their expedition changes. Is it that some are moving too fast (beyond simply expedition) or that groups have players supplying group mobility? If Rapids doesn't get any attention in light of all the other mobility changes it definitely says something about ZOS favoring organized groups.
This is also a great point. It's entirely possible the goal of the movement changes is more aimed at toning down the very speediest, rather than a blanket reduction of mobility.
...the practical effect is going to be a reduction of mobility outside of large, organized groups, but that might not be the intent.Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub0
