Rapid Maneuvers - Balance before Live

DivineFirstYOLO

No we didn't toggle slow walk for the memes. It was the server that made everybody - us and the enemies - go slow motion. First time we experienced something like that. Defenders were slowed even after we wiped. Check the scene when some of them jumped from the ledge to the stairs... they were slowed in mid air.

We came back later and were continuously fighting for 90 mins in that keep - without wipes, without bugs - video is also on the channel, 32mins long (speeded up).

That some serious bug right there...

The_Shadowborn

visionality wrote: »

The_Shadowborn wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

The_Shadowborn wrote: »

Ok reading this thread it is clear many people have never ran in a "ball group".
In a ball/guild group people specialize to be efficient in their role. They work as one to achieve the goal of killing as many people as possible.
Idk if it's a EU thing but ball groups don't run down single targets and are generally 16 man or less taking on triple if not more their number.

Considering your statement, this obviously is an EU thing. The majority of ball groups on EU server only play X vs less or X vx same number of unorganized randoms and they love to run down single players - that includes chasing solo players with the full 24 man zerg. We even have super ball groups where 2 24-man-groups (with rapidbots, purgers, CC-spammers and coordinated destro-ultis) work together to take keeps defended by randoms.

The last time I saw two organized high-end groups willingly fight each other outside a keep or outpost is more than nine months ago. Usually organized PVP groups avoid each other because killing randoms is easier AP.

Its sad and probably telling a lot about the state of PVP on the EU servers.

You need to realise when I say ball groups I mean groups that are going out there fighting the whole alliance. As yes there's some groups that try to be a ball group but when they actually meet an organised guild group they die in a matter of seconds, doesn't matter if they are 24 man or 50man.

On Vivec there isn't really any organised guild groups anymore, theres Noxious and Zerg Squad they are both predominantly EP. Who don't run more than 18 and only do that when they are against a whole faction back keeping or messing with scrolls.

We don't care about AP tbh we all already have more than we know what to do with, all we want are some good fights which means normally being massively outnumbered or against another Guild; that pop up on either side from time to time. There's no fun in Zerging people down, we leave small scalers alone unless they for some reason they try to fight then it is a fight on their terms and they know the odds.

I invite you to one of our raids to actually see what goes on, message me ingame if you want to see a proper Guild Group.

@W_Shadowborn

@The_Shadowborn Thanks for the offer, will pick you up by it. ;-)

Very curious to see your Guild Group fighting another organized group or even "the whole alliance" and not just rather hapless randoms desperately trying to recapture a ressource or an outpost.

Like I said message me in game, (We're EP) and as long as you build right for your role you can join.

prototypefb

rapid meneuver and morphs sould be changed to self buffs only, with signifficantly reduced cost and 2 versions, 1 magicka and other stamina, so there's a sacrifice if you want to run mobility+snare removal/cc immunity.

PathwayM

del9 wrote: »

@PathwayM @Qbiken

Oof that was brutal to watch. But please help me understand what is happening in that video. Watching on mobile.
Did they intentionally take off all their mobility buffa and rapids to demonstrate what the game will be like? If so, kudos. It would be terrible if everyone In cyro was moving at this pace except for the largest groups.

Wait, did they all just toggle walk for the meme?

No their group was walk bugged, they were all stuck in RP walk but could sprint at normal pace.

Tasear

Passing concerns and perspectives listed.

del9

Smh my head

ezio45

i dont realy see this as a problem not a very useful combat skill but as long as the nerf doesnt effect outside of combat use idc

del9

ezio45 wrote: »

i dont realy see this as a problem not a very useful combat skill but as long as the nerf doesnt effect outside of combat use idc

It is not as much a problem on Live because solos etc still have reasonable access to mobility buffs.

But once this goes live, you may start to see the problem (unless you run in a group 12 or larger). I was hoping we could nip this in the bud before changes go live. It is hard to tell on PTS, but I predict when this goes live, the problem will becom evident to most and there will be a huge amount of complaints. Or all the non-large scalers will just quit pvp.

When it does go live, we will have to live with it for many weeks. It’ll be a huge pain point for most, and then will get fixed in an update in the far off future. Marketh my words

PapaWeeb

Agree with OP.

Just make it target you+2, or a solo buff with reduced cost. Or if PvE tanks don't like that, make it cost double if you cast again in 5 seconds or whatever. Something to stop the ballgroup spam without killing getting around outside of combat

Bitmun

Make ME great again. :c

Anethum

@ZOS_Wrobel it should hav cost cooldown similar to Streak to prevent rapid's spam. do please something ith that. it going to be even more unbalanced and not viable for solo players or small groups vs zergs because of the speed changes

Joy_Division

OP has a point.

It is totally unfair to gut the mobility of a solo player but keep the mobility on people who don't even use this skill (because they are in groups with people dedicated to spamming it).

TequilaFire

Joy_Division wrote: »

OP has a point.

It is totally unfair to gut the mobility of a solo player but keep the mobility on people who don't even use this skill (because they are in groups with people dedicated to spamming it).

As a sometimes solo player I can and do still use rapids, not using a skill is a choice.
Maybe there needs to be a magic version to even the playing field for magic solo players.

del9

TequilaFire wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

OP has a point.

It is totally unfair to gut the mobility of a solo player but keep the mobility on people who don't even use this skill (because they are in groups with people dedicated to spamming it).

As a sometimes solo player I can and do still use rapids, not using a skill is a choice.
Maybe there needs to be a magic version to even the playing field for magic solo players.

Using rapids as an in-combat mobility skill is a choice. An objectively bad choice.

usmcjdking

I just find it hilarious that the people who are defending this skill likely aren't the ones even using it. Just welfare queening the benefits of a broken skill and calling it sensible.

ZarkingFrued

So I just dont wanna lose the ability to run fast and ride my mount fast for 30 seconds in between keeps and out and abou tamriel. So ZOS if you're considering this seriously, please dont slow me down while I'm just out and about collecting books and skyshards ect. Pretty sure this would cause some rage quits. Maybe have it removed when you enter combat?

Sandman929

Joy_Division wrote: »

OP has a point.

It is totally unfair to gut the mobility of a solo player but keep the mobility on people who don't even use this skill (because they are in groups with people dedicated to spamming it).

But it's a group utility skill, that's why it hits group members. It's unfair to plan a group composition to provide support/damage/healing? It's unfair that doing so is advantageous?

Sandman929

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

So I just dont wanna lose the ability to run fast and ride my mount fast for 30 seconds in between keeps and out and abou tamriel. So ZOS if you're considering this seriously, please dont slow me down while I'm just out and about collecting books and skyshards ect. Pretty sure this would cause some rage quits. Maybe have it removed when you enter combat?

It is removed, what people have a problem with is that groups have support players constantly refreshing it.

"The effect ends if you cast any spell on an enemy or an ally."

TequilaFire

del9 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

OP has a point.

It is totally unfair to gut the mobility of a solo player but keep the mobility on people who don't even use this skill (because they are in groups with people dedicated to spamming it).

As a sometimes solo player I can and do still use rapids, not using a skill is a choice.
Maybe there needs to be a magic version to even the playing field for magic solo players.

Using rapids as an in-combat mobility skill is a choice. An objectively bad choice.

Depends on what your objective is, getting through a breach you just helped siege it is a good choice to get through quicker avoiding the oils and CC. Yes some of us play objective even when solo.
Playing Rambo attacking a large group not so good, but why nerf a skill for one play style?

mongoLC

Your small man do nothing grief builds are dead
If they nerf rapids to the ground it just makes room for another purger or healer/damage. So your small mans are still screwed. Cyro isn't for small man its large scale pvp it's an mmo tough ***.

Finedaible

Leave Rapids alone. Nobody has time to spend all day just traveling across the whole of Tamriel at the speed of a slug.

casparian

TequilaFire wrote: »

As a sometimes solo player I can and do still use rapids, not using a skill is a choice.
Maybe there needs to be a magic version to even the playing field for magic solo players.

Please post videos, or at least give us descriptive narratives, of you successfully 1vXing with Rapids slotted on your bar. (Overload bar doesn't count, as that's not a thing anymore.) I'd even be happy to see video of a 2-4ish person group using it to achieve results similar to what the skill does for large groups.

No one in this thread has suggested that it is impossible to use this skill while solo. The point is that competitive large groups can get unlimited mobility at no cost to the group or to their playstyle through having one or more members dedicated to spamming this skill -- something that isn't available to solo players and comes at a great cost to small groups.

TequilaFire

casparian wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

As a sometimes solo player I can and do still use rapids, not using a skill is a choice.
Maybe there needs to be a magic version to even the playing field for magic solo players.

Please post videos, or at least give us descriptive narratives, of you successfully 1vXing with Rapids slotted on your bar. (Overload bar doesn't count, as that's not a thing anymore.) I'd even be happy to see video of a 2-4ish person group using it to achieve results similar to what the skill does for large groups.

No one in this thread has suggested that it is impossible to use this skill while solo. The point is that competitive large groups can get unlimited mobility at no cost to the group or to their playstyle through having one or more members dedicated to spamming this skill -- something that isn't available to solo players and comes at a great cost to small groups.

I never said anything about me 1vX I said I play objective if you read the posts.
An organized group will have people applying, cc, heals, negates and a NB to go set up a camp as well as some one who uses rapids. You are not going to counter that playing Rambo.

DeadlyRecluse

TequilaFire wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

As a sometimes solo player I can and do still use rapids, not using a skill is a choice.
Maybe there needs to be a magic version to even the playing field for magic solo players.

Please post videos, or at least give us descriptive narratives, of you successfully 1vXing with Rapids slotted on your bar. (Overload bar doesn't count, as that's not a thing anymore.) I'd even be happy to see video of a 2-4ish person group using it to achieve results similar to what the skill does for large groups.

No one in this thread has suggested that it is impossible to use this skill while solo. The point is that competitive large groups can get unlimited mobility at no cost to the group or to their playstyle through having one or more members dedicated to spamming this skill -- something that isn't available to solo players and comes at a great cost to small groups.

I never said anything about me 1vX I said I play objective if you read the posts.
An organized group will have people applying, cc, heals, negates and a NB to go set up a camp as well as some one who uses rapids. You are not going to counter that playing Rambo.

You're doing an absurd and transparent strawman here.

Nobody is saying that removing rapids will allow individual players to take on organized groups. Nobody is even saying that they should.

The discussion is about how one skill has been overlooked in the movement rebalance--and it's a skill that is only usable as a mid-fight buff for large(ish) groups--for solo/small group players, it only works as an escape skill or out-of-combat mobility skill, but a dedicated spammer in large groups allows it to function as essentially perma-invulnerability to snares for a group.

Obviously, that lets it work as an escape skill for a group, but with a dedicated spammer, it functions as high uptime in-combat snare immunity too. That's what people have a problem with.

Now, go ahead and respond by saying that you "slot rapids while solo" (even though that isn't relevant, as it's a servicable skill for solo players as an escape or out of combat mobility skill) or that I "just want to be able play Rambo" (which certainly isn't the case). But go ahead.

TequilaFire

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

As a sometimes solo player I can and do still use rapids, not using a skill is a choice.
Maybe there needs to be a magic version to even the playing field for magic solo players.

Please post videos, or at least give us descriptive narratives, of you successfully 1vXing with Rapids slotted on your bar. (Overload bar doesn't count, as that's not a thing anymore.) I'd even be happy to see video of a 2-4ish person group using it to achieve results similar to what the skill does for large groups.

No one in this thread has suggested that it is impossible to use this skill while solo. The point is that competitive large groups can get unlimited mobility at no cost to the group or to their playstyle through having one or more members dedicated to spamming this skill -- something that isn't available to solo players and comes at a great cost to small groups.

I never said anything about me 1vX I said I play objective if you read the posts.
An organized group will have people applying, cc, heals, negates and a NB to go set up a camp as well as some one who uses rapids. You are not going to counter that playing Rambo.

You're doing an absurd and transparent strawman here.

Nobody is saying that removing rapids will allow individual players to take on organized groups. Nobody is even saying that they should.

The discussion is about how one skill has been overlooked in the movement rebalance--and it's a skill that is only usable as a mid-fight buff for large(ish) groups--for solo/small group players, it only works as an escape skill or out-of-combat mobility skill, but a dedicated spammer in large groups allows it to function as essentially perma-invulnerability to snares for a group.

Obviously, that lets it work as an escape skill for a group, but with a dedicated spammer, it functions as high uptime in-combat snare immunity too. That's what people have a problem with.

Now, go ahead and respond by saying that you "slot rapids while solo" (even though that isn't relevant, as it's a servicable skill for solo players as an escape or out of combat mobility skill) or that I "just want to be able play Rambo" (which certainly isn't the case). But go ahead.

And another one who puts words in mouths, where did I say that removing rapids would allow individual players to take on organized groups, if anything I have been saying individual players thinking they can take on organized groups isn't smart.
No where did I say I want to be the Rambo. lol
Clearly the devs seem to be OK with Rapids just the way it is.

DeadlyRecluse

TequilaFire wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

As a sometimes solo player I can and do still use rapids, not using a skill is a choice.
Maybe there needs to be a magic version to even the playing field for magic solo players.

Please post videos, or at least give us descriptive narratives, of you successfully 1vXing with Rapids slotted on your bar. (Overload bar doesn't count, as that's not a thing anymore.) I'd even be happy to see video of a 2-4ish person group using it to achieve results similar to what the skill does for large groups.

No one in this thread has suggested that it is impossible to use this skill while solo. The point is that competitive large groups can get unlimited mobility at no cost to the group or to their playstyle through having one or more members dedicated to spamming this skill -- something that isn't available to solo players and comes at a great cost to small groups.

I never said anything about me 1vX I said I play objective if you read the posts.
An organized group will have people applying, cc, heals, negates and a NB to go set up a camp as well as some one who uses rapids. You are not going to counter that playing Rambo.

You're doing an absurd and transparent strawman here.

Nobody is saying that removing rapids will allow individual players to take on organized groups. Nobody is even saying that they should.

The discussion is about how one skill has been overlooked in the movement rebalance--and it's a skill that is only usable as a mid-fight buff for large(ish) groups--for solo/small group players, it only works as an escape skill or out-of-combat mobility skill, but a dedicated spammer in large groups allows it to function as essentially perma-invulnerability to snares for a group.

Obviously, that lets it work as an escape skill for a group, but with a dedicated spammer, it functions as high uptime in-combat snare immunity too. That's what people have a problem with.

Now, go ahead and respond by saying that you "slot rapids while solo" (even though that isn't relevant, as it's a servicable skill for solo players as an escape or out of combat mobility skill) or that I "just want to be able play Rambo" (which certainly isn't the case). But go ahead.

And another one who puts words in mouths, where did I say that removing rapids would allow individual players to take on organized groups, if anything I have been saying individual players thinking they can take on organized groups isn't smart.
No where did I say I want to be the Rambo. lol

What del9 and others in this thread are saying is that rapids allows large groups to maintain current levels of mobility while everyone else's mobility is being decimated.

Your responses, consistently, are:
1. you can slot rapids as a solo player.
2. solo players shouldn't/can't take on organized groups.

Nobody disagrees with point no.1, even if it is disingenuous due to how the skill behaves in solo play vs group play.
Nobody disagrees with point no. 2., even if it's irrelevant to this discussion (which is about mobility in relation to the upcoming patch, NOT about winning fights).

So, rhetorically, you are setting yourself up to argue against a much weaker position than the one Del9 is actually taking.

On the other hand, you don't seem to parse how pronouns work, so I really don't know why I'm bothering.

TequilaFire

Large groups mobility swift and other adjustments were nerfed just as hard as small scale.
This whole thing boils down to a perception that someone has something someone else doesn't which I am pointing out is just not true.

Anethum

TequilaFire wrote: »

Depends on what your objective is, getting through a breach you just helped siege it is a good choice to get through quicker avoiding the oils and CC. Yes some of us play objective even when solo.
Playing Rambo attacking a large group not so good, but why nerf a skill for one play style?

If to count these things as a playstyle...here are 3 playstyles: zerg, small scale, solo.
In Murkmire changes made bad mobility for 2/3 of them.
And left untouched (rapid maneur was and is too expensive to be used solo or in small scale) and very enjoyed of these changes zergers?
Which are 1/3 and felt pretty cool before.
U coudn't be rambo vs somehow experienced zerg before, and now u will will be with even more disadvatage because of mobility difference...
Nothing unfair here?

del9

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

So I just dont wanna lose the ability to run fast and ride my mount fast for 30 seconds in between keeps and out and abou tamriel. So ZOS if you're considering this seriously, please dont slow me down while I'm just out and about collecting books and skyshards ect. Pretty sure this would cause some rage quits. Maybe have it removed when you enter combat?

Finedaible wrote: »

Leave Rapids alone. Nobody has time to spend all day just traveling across the whole of Tamriel at the speed of a slug.

Just to clear things up for both of you as I’ve seen these concerns repeated many times, and you may have not read the OP.

Do not fear. Nobody wants major gallop tampered with. And are not asking for the duration of the buffs to be lowered. If I get the ‘nerfs’ I’m asking for, nobody will be prevented from casting this skill on themself.

The suggested change is that a cap is put on the amount of other players you buff with this skill.

Anethum

del9 wrote: »

Just to clear things up for both of you as I’ve seen these concerns repeated many times, and you may have not read the OP.

Do not fear. Nobody wants major gallop tampered with. And are not asking for the duration of the buffs to be lowered. If I get the ‘nerfs’ I’m asking for, nobody will be prevented from casting this skill on themself.

The suggested change is that a cap is put on the amount of other players you buff with this skill.

Not sure cap is good decision. Sure it's bad.
it's a part of group play. Let it be.
Just solve the problem of this skill.
Which is it's spam on group providing whole big group permanently immune to snares and roots while fighting because of 1 or 2 people with maxed regeneration of stamina, who's only the function is to spam rapid maneur on group. Broken pain.
If to add cap - it will ruin part of group play in every type of content.
But if to add something to make it not spammable...like as i wrote before - cooldown with an extremly expensive (not sustainable) usage while expired...like was done with sorc's Streak but maybe more expencive/depending on how many members in group in proportion... - it will help a lot and provide objective nerf of it without ruining it's basement.