Funny how you think shields that can be 1-shotted are equivalent to stamina defensive mechanisms when dodge roll and block got no upper limit but shields do and dodge roll and block can be woven with abilities while shields cannot.
GG, great comparisons. Now go back under your bridge you trolls.
starkerealm wrote: »
ZOS stated that shield nerfing because they want to make healer viable
To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.
To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.
To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.
@Izaki
Yes, but you are a fool and badly informed The 40% limit only applies per shield. So stacking shields is still the best and only way.
Shields are now muuuch weaker on all ends and stacking will become even more important. Nothing changes, except that everything is worse than before. It could all be so easy, if they would just make shields unstackable, but they refuse to for some reason that I will never understand.
And this is the pvp side. Let's not even imagine pve.....
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.
@Izaki
Yes, but you are a fool and badly informed The 40% limit only applies per shield. So stacking shields is still the best and only way.
Shields are now muuuch weaker on all ends and stacking will become even more important. Nothing changes, except that everything is worse than before. It could all be so easy, if they would just make shields unstackable, but they refuse to for some reason that I will never understand.
And this is the pvp side. Let's not even imagine pve.....
The point of the change was to effect survival in pve so arguing that this change will do that isn't too smart.
Let's have this hp cap per shield and remove the battle spirit nerf to shields. If you want higher shields you would have to balance hp and magicka. Seems like a more interesting system than just "stack only magicka"
I still feel the change they should have made was to prevent recasting shields from "filling up" the shield. I e. If you ha e 1k left on the shield either wait for it to expire/be damaged off and then recast it. You know the way shields used to be...
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.
@Izaki
Yes, but you are a fool and badly informed The 40% limit only applies per shield. So stacking shields is still the best and only way.
Shields are now muuuch weaker on all ends and stacking will become even more important. Nothing changes, except that everything is worse than before. It could all be so easy, if they would just make shields unstackable, but they refuse to for some reason that I will never understand.
And this is the pvp side. Let's not even imagine pve.....
The point of the change was to effect survival in pve so arguing that this change will do that isn't too smart.
Let's have this hp cap per shield and remove the battle spirit nerf to shields. If you want higher shields you would have to balance hp and magicka. Seems like a more interesting system than just "stack only magicka"
I still feel the change they should have made was to prevent recasting shields from "filling up" the shield. I e. If you ha e 1k left on the shield either wait for it to expire/be damaged off and then recast it. You know the way shields used to be...
I would have loved this solution, to make shields not refreshable before they break. But well.
To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.
@Izaki
Yes, but you are a fool and badly informed The 40% limit only applies per shield. So stacking shields is still the best and only way.
Shields are now muuuch weaker on all ends and stacking will become even more important. Nothing changes, except that everything is worse than before. It could all be so easy, if they would just make shields unstackable, but they refuse to for some reason that I will never understand.
And this is the pvp side. Let's not even imagine pve.....
Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »I think a better solution for both pve and pvp would be making it so that the total shieldstack on a player cant exceed 100% hp. That prevents triple shieldstacking in pvp and keeps shields reasonably strong against oneshots in pve.
@Biro123 you are right, and I agree with your PvP VS PvE analysis. However, the benefit to PvE is only that healers feel more valued while the cost in PvP is that an entire class becomes pretty much useless or cannon fodder, so the cost-benefit tradeoff is horrible.To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.
At 22 to 23k HP in PvP your Hardened Ward sits somewhere around 12k. Plus the shields are now critable, while the resistences are pretty much irrelevant outside of heavy armor builds. So there isn't really any benefit from that change.
Also the fact that you now can only use 1 shield and already hit the cap and therefore don't have to slot a second shield is no benefit. You already can leave 1 shield off your bars.
Besides, the changes will not really incentivize sorcs to drop a shield since most good sorcs only ever use 1 shield at a time and pretty much only carry harness magicka around for prolonged engagements against other magicka builds to help with their sustain issues. So there no benefit here either.
Higher Health means lower magicka, means lower shields and lower damage. Not really a benefit. Imperial Physique isn't really an arguement for shield strength since that only works in IC and 99.9999999% of PVP is not happening in IC. That's like saying: "let's triple the cost for dodging, b/c in IC stam builds got more stamina".
To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.
@Izaki
Yes, but you are a fool and badly informed The 40% limit only applies per shield. So stacking shields is still the best and only way.
Shields are now muuuch weaker on all ends and stacking will become even more important. Nothing changes, except that everything is worse than before. It could all be so easy, if they would just make shields unstackable, but they refuse to for some reason that I will never understand.
And this is the pvp side. Let's not even imagine pve.....
First up, don't call me a fool just because I'm "badly informed in a video game", it's quite funny actually. If this game means that much to you, well, I'm sorry for my ignorance . I didn't know that the 40% limit was per shield. Is it just that hard to say that without pathetically trying to get at me on a video game forum? And since it is 40% per shield, then I don't even see what all the crying is about since in most builds, shields will be around 40% of a typical open world Sorc's max health. 80% of your Max health in shields and on top of that you have Healing Ward. Sure it's a nerf to Sorcs, since Hardened Ward was giving you an extra 3k shields in PvP (if you had 22k health), but its not nearly as huge of a nerf as a 1 second cast time. I also never said that shield stacking was a bad thing or that I didn't prefer the shield mechanics as they were on the live server, but whatever.
Second, "making shields unstackable". I guess, say goodbye to Healing Ward stacking with either Annulement or Hardnened Ward. I'd bet that all the Sorcs would cry way more about that than about the cast time. Doubt that it solves anything at all. Unless in your eyes Healing Ward should be something entirely different and should stack with all the other shields in the game. So your solution is even more of a nerf to your beloved class I guess. If Healing Ward was unstackable with other shields in PvE, it would be quite problematic for everyone: the Magicka builds with Harness Magicka and the Tanks with Igneous Shield/Hardened Armor. Not to mention the passive shields you get from the CP passives or the Psijic Order skill line. So yeah. Not really a solution after all, is it?
Thirdly. Umm... Have you done much leaderboard worthhy PvE lately? From your last sentence, I'd dare to say that you haven't. In most hard mode trials shields are barely needed except as "Oh ***" buttons. Well guess what? 40% of your max health (which is 18k without Ebon) is more than enough as an emergency button. Plus, Stamina builds are doing fine without shields (and without Deadly Cloak) on all but 5 bosses in the entire game (that's including vAS+2 and vCR+3), so why would magicka builds suddenly suffer so much from the shield changes considering the fact that they still get an extra 7.2K health which is also affected by their resistances? They are ranged builds which automatically means that it is easier to avoid dangerous mechanics while still dealing damage, they have more self healing and more bar space for resistance buffs, they also have more health than Stamina DDs due to the Undaunted Passives and they will be getting 25% AoE damage reduction next patch on top of that.
Plus, in PvE the content was never designed with shields in mind. Shields have just become a way of surviving one-shot mechanics which are all avoidable in the first place through other means, namely: avoiding them by stepping out of the AoE, blocking/dodging or doing the actual mechanic properly. One shot mechanics in ESO are a way of punishing a player's mistake. So a nerf to shields is not that bad for PvE DDs in terms of overall balance: we're talking about the fact that Stamina builds are complete jokes compared to Magicka ones in vAS+2 and vCR+3, in terms of both DPS and survivability (which isn't only because of shields but also because of other things).
And lastly, my post wasn't even directed at you, I just felt that you were one of the better pet Sorcs (while inside the Imperial City) who was Pets and the Imperial Physique set to their full potential, so you deserved a mention.
I think you guys are talking cross-purposes, with one looking at pve, the other, PvP.
I think the crux of the problem is that if we take pve as a start point, with all damage dealers being just that, damage dealers, shields do give mag more survivability than stam has -at next to no cost.
But when we switch to PvP builds, it's much easier for stam to gain a lot of survivability, while not losing too much damage. And it's a more gradual scale between damage and survivability.
For mag, with these changes, it suddenly becomes a huge sacrifice in damage to get enough survivability to PvP. Basically if you wanted equivalent survivability to an average stam build, your damage would now be a lot worse. And it's not a gradual change, it's more like stepping off a cliff. (ie having to pretty much completely switch from damage focussed to defence focussed)
This is largely due to a few factors. Stam defences making much better use of things that don't need bar-space (block/dodge/sprint), availability of high-damage heavy armour sets, and a very good heal that is not tied to any class or weapon.
Imho, PvP was fairly closely balanced between them already (perhaps excluding swift but that's debatable anyway).
These changes massively shift the PvP balance of power, however.
To re-close that gap for PvP, I think there needs to a few changes.. more mag heavy armour damage sets, re-balance of class-specific healing (some are sorely lacking), and in general, mag skills need to be more overloaded than stam to make up for not being able to use block/dodge as much.
To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.
@Izaki
Yes, but you are a fool and badly informed The 40% limit only applies per shield. So stacking shields is still the best and only way.
Shields are now muuuch weaker on all ends and stacking will become even more important. Nothing changes, except that everything is worse than before. It could all be so easy, if they would just make shields unstackable, but they refuse to for some reason that I will never understand.
And this is the pvp side. Let's not even imagine pve.....
First up, don't call me a fool just because I'm "badly informed in a video game", it's quite funny actually. If this game means that much to you, well, I'm sorry for my ignorance . I didn't know that the 40% limit was per shield. Is it just that hard to say that without pathetically trying to get at me on a video game forum? And since it is 40% per shield, then I don't even see what all the crying is about since in most builds, shields will be around 40% of a typical open world Sorc's max health. 80% of your Max health in shields and on top of that you have Healing Ward. Sure it's a nerf to Sorcs, since Hardened Ward was giving you an extra 3k shields in PvP (if you had 22k health), but its not nearly as huge of a nerf as a 1 second cast time. I also never said that shield stacking was a bad thing or that I didn't prefer the shield mechanics as they were on the live server, but whatever.
Second, "making shields unstackable". I guess, say goodbye to Healing Ward stacking with either Annulement or Hardnened Ward. I'd bet that all the Sorcs would cry way more about that than about the cast time. Doubt that it solves anything at all. Unless in your eyes Healing Ward should be something entirely different and should stack with all the other shields in the game. So your solution is even more of a nerf to your beloved class I guess. If Healing Ward was unstackable with other shields in PvE, it would be quite problematic for everyone: the Magicka builds with Harness Magicka and the Tanks with Igneous Shield/Hardened Armor. Not to mention the passive shields you get from the CP passives or the Psijic Order skill line. So yeah. Not really a solution after all, is it?
Thirdly. Umm... Have you done much leaderboard worthhy PvE lately? From your last sentence, I'd dare to say that you haven't. In most hard mode trials shields are barely needed except as "Oh ***" buttons. Well guess what? 40% of your max health (which is 18k without Ebon) is more than enough as an emergency button. Plus, Stamina builds are doing fine without shields (and without Deadly Cloak) on all but 5 bosses in the entire game (that's including vAS+2 and vCR+3), so why would magicka builds suddenly suffer so much from the shield changes considering the fact that they still get an extra 7.2K health which is also affected by their resistances? They are ranged builds which automatically means that it is easier to avoid dangerous mechanics while still dealing damage, they have more self healing and more bar space for resistance buffs, they also have more health than Stamina DDs due to the Undaunted Passives and they will be getting 25% AoE damage reduction next patch on top of that.
Plus, in PvE the content was never designed with shields in mind. Shields have just become a way of surviving one-shot mechanics which are all avoidable in the first place through other means, namely: avoiding them by stepping out of the AoE, blocking/dodging or doing the actual mechanic properly. One shot mechanics in ESO are a way of punishing a player's mistake. So a nerf to shields is not that bad for PvE DDs in terms of overall balance: we're talking about the fact that Stamina builds are complete jokes compared to Magicka ones in vAS+2 and vCR+3, in terms of both DPS and survivability (which isn't only because of shields but also because of other things).
And lastly, my post wasn't even directed at you, I just felt that you were one of the better pet Sorcs (while inside the Imperial City) who was Pets and the Imperial Physique set to their full potential, so you deserved a mention.
You are not a fool for being unknowing, but for calling me out to support your agenda. Even though you don't know my build or stats.
I have 24k health and 26k with pets out. So I don't even prove your agenda. But it matters not, as I will not endure those changes. So the city is safe now.
Funny how you think shields that can be 1-shotted are equivalent to stamina defensive mechanisms when dodge roll and block got no upper limit but shields do and dodge roll and block can be woven with abilities while shields cannot.
GG, great comparisons. Now go back under your bridge you trolls.
Problem being that there is no situation in which dodge spamming and perma block is required for stamina dds in PVE. Magicka build can do both of these things almost as well as stamina builds.
"Surviving one-shot mechanics". Oh my god. The thing about one-shot mechanics, is that there aren't that many. And those that are, are meant to be avoided by doing certain things. A shield isn't supposed to save you from that. People just got used to shields carrying them through all the hard content instead of getting good and avoiding the mechanics. How do you think stamina builds "survive one-shot mechanics"? They don't. They just avoid the mechanic in the first place or they get rekt. Which is how it should be for everyone.
dwemer_paleologist wrote: »it should be 10% of your health, NOT 40%
dwemer_paleologist wrote: »threads with nerf requests are made to hurt and nerf other classes out of retaliation and spite and not interested in actual class balance. [...] perhaps now all these cries to nerf nerf nerf and especially destroy other people class defense skill will tone down? for the past 5 years almost every single day we see new threads demanding and pushing Hard to nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf other classes skills. Maybe you guys can back off on trying to push nerfs on other classes constantly. Or are you going to just keep spamming new nerf request threads?
dwemer_paleologist wrote: »it should be 10% of your health, NOT 40%