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50% of max health rather than 40%

  • nemvar
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    Galarthor wrote: »
    Funny how you think shields that can be 1-shotted are equivalent to stamina defensive mechanisms when dodge roll and block got no upper limit but shields do and dodge roll and block can be woven with abilities while shields cannot.

    GG, great comparisons. Now go back under your bridge you trolls.

    Problem being that there is no situation in which dodge spamming and perma block is required for stamina dds in PVE. Magicka build can do both of these things almost as well as stamina builds. Stamina defenses also destroy your resources while magickas just put a small dent in them.

    They big thing is that stamina players are NEVER allowed to stand in stupid and magicka gets a get-out-of-stupid-free card. That's the core of the issue ZOS is trying to fix.

    From a PVP perspective I agree. The crit changes might already be overkill.
    Edited by nemvar on September 28, 2018 9:44AM
  • Biro123
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    I think you guys are talking cross-purposes, with one looking at pve, the other, PvP.

    I think the crux of the problem is that if we take pve as a start point, with all damage dealers being just that, damage dealers, shields do give mag more survivability than stam has -at next to no cost.
    But when we switch to PvP builds, it's much easier for stam to gain a lot of survivability, while not losing too much damage. And it's a more gradual scale between damage and survivability.
    For mag, with these changes, it suddenly becomes a huge sacrifice in damage to get enough survivability to PvP. Basically if you wanted equivalent survivability to an average stam build, your damage would now be a lot worse. And it's not a gradual change, it's more like stepping off a cliff. (ie having to pretty much completely switch from damage focussed to defence focussed)

    This is largely due to a few factors. Stam defences making much better use of things that don't need bar-space (block/dodge/sprint), availability of high-damage heavy armour sets, and a very good heal that is not tied to any class or weapon.

    Imho, PvP was fairly closely balanced between them already (perhaps excluding swift but that's debatable anyway).
    These changes massively shift the PvP balance of power, however.

    To re-close that gap for PvP, I think there needs to a few changes.. more mag heavy armour damage sets, re-balance of class-specific healing (some are sorely lacking), and in general, mag skills need to be more overloaded than stam to make up for not being able to use block/dodge as much.
    Edited by Biro123 on September 28, 2018 9:57AM
    Minalan owes me a beer.

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  • starkerealm
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    Biro123 wrote: »
    ...more mag heavy armour damage sets...

    *Looks at the list.*

    There's already a ton. The issue is people not thinking about them as Magicka Damage sets, but as dead weight for a tank.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • heng14rwb17_ESO
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    The way u calculate 50% may not be the way zos calculate 50%.

    What if my way of calculating 40% maybe higher than zos calculation of 80%?

    Zos is a genius when it comes to math.
  • Numerikuu
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    ccfeeling wrote: »
    ZOS stated that shield nerfing because they want to make healer viable :)

    Can't heal a dead dps. Can't heal dps if you yourself are dead.

    Their idea that nerfing shields to make healers more viable is a load of bull, and shows they don't have a damn clue about their own game. When the mere mention of shield nerfs was brought up over a month ago I knew this would happen, that they'd use the ol' band aid on a gaping wound 'fix' as an illusion that they're doing something. If they want healers to be more viable, stop designing dungeon combat around cheap 1shot mechanics. As for PvP? Just...prevent shields from being stacked perhaps???

    My experience as a Templar healer in this game (vet dlc dungeons) is either throw on some dots and you're done, to welp, that person is dead because they didn't use their shield, or spamming BoL during pressure time. The inbetween usually consists of contributing to dps and keeping up combat prayer. I tried Warden healer, but despite bringing more buffs to the table, their dps contribution is awful. Felt clunky to play as well.

    Adding a cast time to reducing shield strength is utter bollocks. It's a lazy fix when there are other, more bigger concerns out there.
    Edited by Numerikuu on September 28, 2018 11:01AM
  • Izaki
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    "Surviving one-shot mechanics". Oh my god. The thing about one-shot mechanics, is that there aren't that many. And those that are, are meant to be avoided by doing certain things. A shield isn't supposed to save you from that. People just got used to shields carrying them through all the hard content instead of getting good and avoiding the mechanics. How do you think stamina builds "survive one-shot mechanics"? They don't. They just avoid the mechanic in the first place or they get rekt. Which is how it should be for everyone.
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  • Izaki
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    To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
    I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.
    @ Izaki #PCEU
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  • Galarthor
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    @Biro123 you are right, and I agree with your PvP VS PvE analysis. However, the benefit to PvE is only that healers feel more valued while the cost in PvP is that an entire class becomes pretty much useless or cannon fodder, so the cost-benefit tradeoff is horrible.
    Izaki wrote: »
    To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.

    I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.

    At 22 to 23k HP in PvP your Hardened Ward sits somewhere around 12k. Plus the shields are now critable, while the resistences are pretty much irrelevant outside of heavy armor builds. So there isn't really any benefit from that change.

    Also the fact that you now can only use 1 shield and already hit the cap and therefore don't have to slot a second shield is no benefit. You already can leave 1 shield off your bars.

    Besides, the changes will not really incentivize sorcs to drop a shield since most good sorcs only ever use 1 shield at a time and pretty much only carry harness magicka around for prolonged engagements against other magicka builds to help with their sustain issues. So there no benefit here either.

    Higher Health means lower magicka, means lower shields and lower damage. Not really a benefit. Imperial Physique isn't really an arguement for shield strength since that only works in IC and 99.9999999% of PVP is not happening in IC. That's like saying: "let's triple the cost for dodging, b/c in IC stam builds got more stamina".
  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    Dracane wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
    I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.

    @Izaki
    Yes, but you are a fool and badly informed :) The 40% limit only applies per shield. So stacking shields is still the best and only way.

    Shields are now muuuch weaker on all ends and stacking will become even more important. Nothing changes, except that everything is worse than before. It could all be so easy, if they would just make shields unstackable, but they refuse to for some reason that I will never understand.

    And this is the pvp side. Let's not even imagine pve.....

    The point of the change was to effect survival in pve so arguing that this change will do that isn't too smart.
    Let's have this hp cap per shield and remove the battle spirit nerf to shields. If you want higher shields you would have to balance hp and magicka. Seems like a more interesting system than just "stack only magicka"

    I still feel the change they should have made was to prevent recasting shields from "filling up" the shield. I e. If you ha e 1k left on the shield either wait for it to expire/be damaged off and then recast it. You know the way shields used to be...
    Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on September 28, 2018 12:58PM
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  • Dracane
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    Dracane wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
    I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.

    @Izaki
    Yes, but you are a fool and badly informed :) The 40% limit only applies per shield. So stacking shields is still the best and only way.

    Shields are now muuuch weaker on all ends and stacking will become even more important. Nothing changes, except that everything is worse than before. It could all be so easy, if they would just make shields unstackable, but they refuse to for some reason that I will never understand.

    And this is the pvp side. Let's not even imagine pve.....

    The point of the change was to effect survival in pve so arguing that this change will do that isn't too smart.
    Let's have this hp cap per shield and remove the battle spirit nerf to shields. If you want higher shields you would have to balance hp and magicka. Seems like a more interesting system than just "stack only magicka"

    I still feel the change they should have made was to prevent recasting shields from "filling up" the shield. I e. If you ha e 1k left on the shield either wait for it to expire/be damaged off and then recast it. You know the way shields used to be...

    I would have loved this solution, to make shields not refreshable before they break. But well.
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  • Emma_Overload
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    Dracane wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
    I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.

    @Izaki
    Yes, but you are a fool and badly informed :) The 40% limit only applies per shield. So stacking shields is still the best and only way.

    Shields are now muuuch weaker on all ends and stacking will become even more important. Nothing changes, except that everything is worse than before. It could all be so easy, if they would just make shields unstackable, but they refuse to for some reason that I will never understand.

    And this is the pvp side. Let's not even imagine pve.....

    The point of the change was to effect survival in pve so arguing that this change will do that isn't too smart.
    Let's have this hp cap per shield and remove the battle spirit nerf to shields. If you want higher shields you would have to balance hp and magicka. Seems like a more interesting system than just "stack only magicka"

    I still feel the change they should have made was to prevent recasting shields from "filling up" the shield. I e. If you ha e 1k left on the shield either wait for it to expire/be damaged off and then recast it. You know the way shields used to be...

    I would have loved this solution, to make shields not refreshable before they break. But well.

    I'm curious, why would you want it to work that way? I remember when re-casting a shield just refreshed its duration, and it was horrible... very counter-intuitive. I didn't even understand what was going on until I read about it one day on the forums; I just thought that shields sucked, LOL.

    Nowadays, waiting around for a leftover 1K shield to expire seems it would be really iffy, like you would be basically naked while some clownblade pounded you with an Incap or something!
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  • Izaki
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    Dracane wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
    I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.

    @Izaki
    Yes, but you are a fool and badly informed :) The 40% limit only applies per shield. So stacking shields is still the best and only way.

    Shields are now muuuch weaker on all ends and stacking will become even more important. Nothing changes, except that everything is worse than before. It could all be so easy, if they would just make shields unstackable, but they refuse to for some reason that I will never understand.

    And this is the pvp side. Let's not even imagine pve.....

    First up, don't call me a fool just because I'm "badly informed in a video game", it's quite funny actually. If this game means that much to you, well, I'm sorry for my ignorance :lol: . I didn't know that the 40% limit was per shield. Is it just that hard to say that without pathetically trying to get at me on a video game forum? And since it is 40% per shield, then I don't even see what all the crying is about since in most builds, shields will be around 40% of a typical open world Sorc's max health. 80% of your Max health in shields and on top of that you have Healing Ward. Sure it's a nerf to Sorcs, since Hardened Ward was giving you an extra 3k shields in PvP (if you had 22k health), but its not nearly as huge of a nerf as a 1 second cast time. I also never said that shield stacking was a bad thing or that I didn't prefer the shield mechanics as they were on the live server, but whatever.
    Second, "making shields unstackable". I guess, say goodbye to Healing Ward stacking with either Annulement or Hardnened Ward. I'd bet that all the Sorcs would cry way more about that than about the cast time. Doubt that it solves anything at all. Unless in your eyes Healing Ward should be something entirely different and should stack with all the other shields in the game. So your solution is even more of a nerf to your beloved class I guess. If Healing Ward was unstackable with other shields in PvE, it would be quite problematic for everyone: the Magicka builds with Harness Magicka and the Tanks with Igneous Shield/Hardened Armor. Not to mention the passive shields you get from the CP passives or the Psijic Order skill line. So yeah. Not really a solution after all, is it?
    Thirdly. Umm... Have you done much leaderboard worthhy PvE lately? From your last sentence, I'd dare to say that you haven't. In most hard mode trials shields are barely needed except as "Oh ***" buttons. Well guess what? 40% of your max health (which is 18k without Ebon) is more than enough as an emergency button. Plus, Stamina builds are doing fine without shields (and without Deadly Cloak) on all but 5 bosses in the entire game (that's including vAS+2 and vCR+3), so why would magicka builds suddenly suffer so much from the shield changes considering the fact that they still get an extra 7.2K health which is also affected by their resistances? They are ranged builds which automatically means that it is easier to avoid dangerous mechanics while still dealing damage, they have more self healing and more bar space for resistance buffs, they also have more health than Stamina DDs due to the Undaunted Passives and they will be getting 25% AoE damage reduction next patch on top of that.
    Plus, in PvE the content was never designed with shields in mind. Shields have just become a way of surviving one-shot mechanics which are all avoidable in the first place through other means, namely: avoiding them by stepping out of the AoE, blocking/dodging or doing the actual mechanic properly. One shot mechanics in ESO are a way of punishing a player's mistake. So a nerf to shields is not that bad for PvE DDs in terms of overall balance: we're talking about the fact that Stamina builds are complete jokes compared to Magicka ones in vAS+2 and vCR+3, in terms of both DPS and survivability (which isn't only because of shields but also because of other things).

    And lastly, my post wasn't even directed at you, I just felt that you were one of the better pet Sorcs (while inside the Imperial City) who was Pets and the Imperial Physique set to their full potential, so you deserved a mention.
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  • jarydf
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    I think a better solution for both pve and pvp would be making it so that the total shieldstack on a player cant exceed 100% hp. That prevents triple shieldstacking in pvp and keeps shields reasonably strong against oneshots in pve.

    This is what I expected. Allowing 1 reasonable sized shield and doing away with the stacking.

    Sorcs having to use 3 skill slots for stacking shields is about as stupid as having to use 4 skill slots for pets.
  • Izaki
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    Galarthor wrote: »
    @Biro123 you are right, and I agree with your PvP VS PvE analysis. However, the benefit to PvE is only that healers feel more valued while the cost in PvP is that an entire class becomes pretty much useless or cannon fodder, so the cost-benefit tradeoff is horrible.
    Izaki wrote: »
    To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.

    I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.

    At 22 to 23k HP in PvP your Hardened Ward sits somewhere around 12k. Plus the shields are now critable, while the resistences are pretty much irrelevant outside of heavy armor builds. So there isn't really any benefit from that change.

    Also the fact that you now can only use 1 shield and already hit the cap and therefore don't have to slot a second shield is no benefit. You already can leave 1 shield off your bars.

    Besides, the changes will not really incentivize sorcs to drop a shield since most good sorcs only ever use 1 shield at a time and pretty much only carry harness magicka around for prolonged engagements against other magicka builds to help with their sustain issues. So there no benefit here either.

    Higher Health means lower magicka, means lower shields and lower damage. Not really a benefit. Imperial Physique isn't really an arguement for shield strength since that only works in IC and 99.9999999% of PVP is not happening in IC. That's like saying: "let's triple the cost for dodging, b/c in IC stam builds got more stamina".

    Apparently, the limit is 40% per shield, according to @Dracane . So only Hardnened Ward and Dampen Magicka will get a nerf theoretically, whereas Harness and the other morph of Conjured Ward will basically stay the same in PvP and shield stacking will still be viable.

    How did you get to the conclusion that resistances were irrelevant outside of Heavy Armor?

    I haven't seen many "good Sorcs" running just 1 shield, most still shield stack, since in open world, it's basically a requirement. With the incoming change, you will be able to run more defensive options on a Sorc (like say Bloodspawn for example) which will allow for new gameplay options on a Mag Sorc and that is always beneficial.

    My Necro + IP example, was just that: an example. You could always run heavy armor like virtually every other build in Cyrodiil and get higher health that way without affecting your Magicka pool, as another example. There are lots of ways of getting your health to a higher level without sacrificing too much Max Magicka.

    And lastly, I'm not saying that this is better than what is going on on the live server. I'm saying that this is better than the cast time. Read my post.
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  • Biro123
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    It's not really just those two morphs getting nerfed. I've had builds where my harness is bigger than 40% of my health.
    It's really a nerf to high mag/low health builds. But then that was already the case to some degree with the the resists/crit change.
    I'm just not really sure how viable shields will be yet. I mean for them to be strong enough to last a cooldown (imo, the minimum viable strength for them), will we have to be stacking so much resists, health and crit resists that we don't actually need shields anymore?
    Remains to be seen.

    Minalan owes me a beer.

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  • Dracane
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    Izaki wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
    I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.

    @Izaki
    Yes, but you are a fool and badly informed :) The 40% limit only applies per shield. So stacking shields is still the best and only way.

    Shields are now muuuch weaker on all ends and stacking will become even more important. Nothing changes, except that everything is worse than before. It could all be so easy, if they would just make shields unstackable, but they refuse to for some reason that I will never understand.

    And this is the pvp side. Let's not even imagine pve.....

    First up, don't call me a fool just because I'm "badly informed in a video game", it's quite funny actually. If this game means that much to you, well, I'm sorry for my ignorance :lol: . I didn't know that the 40% limit was per shield. Is it just that hard to say that without pathetically trying to get at me on a video game forum? And since it is 40% per shield, then I don't even see what all the crying is about since in most builds, shields will be around 40% of a typical open world Sorc's max health. 80% of your Max health in shields and on top of that you have Healing Ward. Sure it's a nerf to Sorcs, since Hardened Ward was giving you an extra 3k shields in PvP (if you had 22k health), but its not nearly as huge of a nerf as a 1 second cast time. I also never said that shield stacking was a bad thing or that I didn't prefer the shield mechanics as they were on the live server, but whatever.
    Second, "making shields unstackable". I guess, say goodbye to Healing Ward stacking with either Annulement or Hardnened Ward. I'd bet that all the Sorcs would cry way more about that than about the cast time. Doubt that it solves anything at all. Unless in your eyes Healing Ward should be something entirely different and should stack with all the other shields in the game. So your solution is even more of a nerf to your beloved class I guess. If Healing Ward was unstackable with other shields in PvE, it would be quite problematic for everyone: the Magicka builds with Harness Magicka and the Tanks with Igneous Shield/Hardened Armor. Not to mention the passive shields you get from the CP passives or the Psijic Order skill line. So yeah. Not really a solution after all, is it?
    Thirdly. Umm... Have you done much leaderboard worthhy PvE lately? From your last sentence, I'd dare to say that you haven't. In most hard mode trials shields are barely needed except as "Oh ***" buttons. Well guess what? 40% of your max health (which is 18k without Ebon) is more than enough as an emergency button. Plus, Stamina builds are doing fine without shields (and without Deadly Cloak) on all but 5 bosses in the entire game (that's including vAS+2 and vCR+3), so why would magicka builds suddenly suffer so much from the shield changes considering the fact that they still get an extra 7.2K health which is also affected by their resistances? They are ranged builds which automatically means that it is easier to avoid dangerous mechanics while still dealing damage, they have more self healing and more bar space for resistance buffs, they also have more health than Stamina DDs due to the Undaunted Passives and they will be getting 25% AoE damage reduction next patch on top of that.
    Plus, in PvE the content was never designed with shields in mind. Shields have just become a way of surviving one-shot mechanics which are all avoidable in the first place through other means, namely: avoiding them by stepping out of the AoE, blocking/dodging or doing the actual mechanic properly. One shot mechanics in ESO are a way of punishing a player's mistake. So a nerf to shields is not that bad for PvE DDs in terms of overall balance: we're talking about the fact that Stamina builds are complete jokes compared to Magicka ones in vAS+2 and vCR+3, in terms of both DPS and survivability (which isn't only because of shields but also because of other things).

    And lastly, my post wasn't even directed at you, I just felt that you were one of the better pet Sorcs (while inside the Imperial City) who was Pets and the Imperial Physique set to their full potential, so you deserved a mention.

    You are not a fool for being unknowing, but for calling me out to support your agenda. Even though you don't know my build or stats.
    I have 24k health and 26k with pets out. So I don't even prove your agenda. But it matters not, as I will not endure those changes. So the city is safe now.
    Edited by Dracane on September 29, 2018 11:36AM
    Auri-El is my lord,
    Trinimac is my shield,
    Magnus is my mind.
  • IAVITNI
    IAVITNI
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    Biro123 wrote: »
    I think you guys are talking cross-purposes, with one looking at pve, the other, PvP.

    I think the crux of the problem is that if we take pve as a start point, with all damage dealers being just that, damage dealers, shields do give mag more survivability than stam has -at next to no cost.
    But when we switch to PvP builds, it's much easier for stam to gain a lot of survivability, while not losing too much damage. And it's a more gradual scale between damage and survivability.
    For mag, with these changes, it suddenly becomes a huge sacrifice in damage to get enough survivability to PvP. Basically if you wanted equivalent survivability to an average stam build, your damage would now be a lot worse. And it's not a gradual change, it's more like stepping off a cliff. (ie having to pretty much completely switch from damage focussed to defence focussed)

    This is largely due to a few factors. Stam defences making much better use of things that don't need bar-space (block/dodge/sprint), availability of high-damage heavy armour sets, and a very good heal that is not tied to any class or weapon.

    Imho, PvP was fairly closely balanced between them already (perhaps excluding swift but that's debatable anyway).
    These changes massively shift the PvP balance of power, however.

    To re-close that gap for PvP, I think there needs to a few changes.. more mag heavy armour damage sets, re-balance of class-specific healing (some are sorely lacking), and in general, mag skills need to be more overloaded than stam to make up for not being able to use block/dodge as much.

    While I don't disagree, I'm not a fan of implementing magicka heavy versions of things like Legion or Fury. The shield changes are largely unnecessary from a PvP perspective. I see no problems getting through sheilds, both as a magsorc and any other class built right. And I play every class. Magsorc actually has the least amount of playtime since Horns of the Reach.

    PvP is pretty balanced in terms of class skills. Some classes are under/over performing in some areas but overall things are pretty close. The real offender at this point in time is sets.

    All ZoS really needs to do for PvP are QoL changes. Shields are only strong on magnbs because they can have 100% uptime on minor maim. Shield stacking is only so potent because of Harness and skill scaling.

    In Julianos/Hunding + willpower/agility with two different 1pc monster sets, classes are really not that far off balance-wise.

    Balancing via/around sets is a poor idea as you are building upwards from a faulty foundation. That is exactly what is occurring right now and it makes no sense.

  • Aedaryl
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    You can still shield stack hardened, harness and healing ward, like ZoS precised.

    The 40% cap is on Annulment and Conjured ward, but they can still stack.

    If you are capped at 9k shield, you can cast on yourself a 9k hardened ward, a 9k Dampen and a 10k healing ward.

    The good thing is that LA shield will take more crit damage than on LIVE and less damage from non crit.

    The other good thing is that you can choose to go heavy with 1 shield (cuz Annulment is bound to Light armor) and have a stronger shield with strong value.

    For PvP this is a good thing, totaly manageable, and it buff certain play style.
  • Apherius
    Apherius
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    40% for harness and 60% for hardened, keep both choice interesting in PVE.
  • Aedaryl
    Aedaryl
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    Dracane wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
    I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.

    @Izaki
    Yes, but you are a fool and badly informed :) The 40% limit only applies per shield. So stacking shields is still the best and only way.

    Shields are now muuuch weaker on all ends and stacking will become even more important. Nothing changes, except that everything is worse than before. It could all be so easy, if they would just make shields unstackable, but they refuse to for some reason that I will never understand.

    And this is the pvp side. Let's not even imagine pve.....

    First up, don't call me a fool just because I'm "badly informed in a video game", it's quite funny actually. If this game means that much to you, well, I'm sorry for my ignorance :lol: . I didn't know that the 40% limit was per shield. Is it just that hard to say that without pathetically trying to get at me on a video game forum? And since it is 40% per shield, then I don't even see what all the crying is about since in most builds, shields will be around 40% of a typical open world Sorc's max health. 80% of your Max health in shields and on top of that you have Healing Ward. Sure it's a nerf to Sorcs, since Hardened Ward was giving you an extra 3k shields in PvP (if you had 22k health), but its not nearly as huge of a nerf as a 1 second cast time. I also never said that shield stacking was a bad thing or that I didn't prefer the shield mechanics as they were on the live server, but whatever.
    Second, "making shields unstackable". I guess, say goodbye to Healing Ward stacking with either Annulement or Hardnened Ward. I'd bet that all the Sorcs would cry way more about that than about the cast time. Doubt that it solves anything at all. Unless in your eyes Healing Ward should be something entirely different and should stack with all the other shields in the game. So your solution is even more of a nerf to your beloved class I guess. If Healing Ward was unstackable with other shields in PvE, it would be quite problematic for everyone: the Magicka builds with Harness Magicka and the Tanks with Igneous Shield/Hardened Armor. Not to mention the passive shields you get from the CP passives or the Psijic Order skill line. So yeah. Not really a solution after all, is it?
    Thirdly. Umm... Have you done much leaderboard worthhy PvE lately? From your last sentence, I'd dare to say that you haven't. In most hard mode trials shields are barely needed except as "Oh ***" buttons. Well guess what? 40% of your max health (which is 18k without Ebon) is more than enough as an emergency button. Plus, Stamina builds are doing fine without shields (and without Deadly Cloak) on all but 5 bosses in the entire game (that's including vAS+2 and vCR+3), so why would magicka builds suddenly suffer so much from the shield changes considering the fact that they still get an extra 7.2K health which is also affected by their resistances? They are ranged builds which automatically means that it is easier to avoid dangerous mechanics while still dealing damage, they have more self healing and more bar space for resistance buffs, they also have more health than Stamina DDs due to the Undaunted Passives and they will be getting 25% AoE damage reduction next patch on top of that.
    Plus, in PvE the content was never designed with shields in mind. Shields have just become a way of surviving one-shot mechanics which are all avoidable in the first place through other means, namely: avoiding them by stepping out of the AoE, blocking/dodging or doing the actual mechanic properly. One shot mechanics in ESO are a way of punishing a player's mistake. So a nerf to shields is not that bad for PvE DDs in terms of overall balance: we're talking about the fact that Stamina builds are complete jokes compared to Magicka ones in vAS+2 and vCR+3, in terms of both DPS and survivability (which isn't only because of shields but also because of other things).

    And lastly, my post wasn't even directed at you, I just felt that you were one of the better pet Sorcs (while inside the Imperial City) who was Pets and the Imperial Physique set to their full potential, so you deserved a mention.

    You are not a fool for being unknowing, but for calling me out to support your agenda. Even though you don't know my build or stats.
    I have 24k health and 26k with pets out. So I don't even prove your agenda. But it matters not, as I will not endure those changes. So the city is safe now.

    Trust me this is a pet sorc gameplay huge buff, mp me if you want details.
  • Vahrokh
    Vahrokh
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    nemvar wrote: »
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Funny how you think shields that can be 1-shotted are equivalent to stamina defensive mechanisms when dodge roll and block got no upper limit but shields do and dodge roll and block can be woven with abilities while shields cannot.

    GG, great comparisons. Now go back under your bridge you trolls.

    Problem being that there is no situation in which dodge spamming and perma block is required for stamina dds in PVE. Magicka build can do both of these things almost as well as stamina builds.

    Spoken as someone who has hardly seen anything beyond normal AA.

    Edited by Vahrokh on September 29, 2018 7:16PM
  • Vahrokh
    Vahrokh
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    Izaki wrote: »
    "Surviving one-shot mechanics". Oh my god. The thing about one-shot mechanics, is that there aren't that many. And those that are, are meant to be avoided by doing certain things. A shield isn't supposed to save you from that. People just got used to shields carrying them through all the hard content instead of getting good and avoiding the mechanics. How do you think stamina builds "survive one-shot mechanics"? They don't. They just avoid the mechanic in the first place or they get rekt. Which is how it should be for everyone.

    Cool, when doing vAS or vCR give magicka classes the ability to dodge 4-5 times in a row and we have got a deal.
  • Apherius
    Apherius
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    A sorcerer with 24K HP and 40K magicka won't notice any difference with harness or hardened.
    • Harness would start at 14,000. (40k Magicka * 0.35 coefficient)
    • The shield would be halved by Battle Spirit to 7000.
    • The shield would be unaffected by the health-based cap, because 7000 < 9,600. (9,600 = 40% of 24k hp)
    • Same thing with Hardened, it would start at 19,200 ( 40k Magicka *0,48 coefficient)
    • Then halved by battle spirit to 9600.
    • And unaffected by the health based cap ( 40% of 24K hp = 9600)

    Now I will take my sorc as an example, 20K5 HP and 41K magicka.
    1. Health based cap = 8200
    2. Hardened = (0,48*41000)/2 = 9840, affected by the health based cap.
    3. Harness = (0,35*41000)/2 =7175, unaffected by the health based cap.

    When you have too much magicka ( or not enough health ) hardened is above the health based cap and harness is unaffected, it reduce the slight gap between both shield ... Which is sad cause hardened is a class shield and should be superior to harness, Hardened cost 2900 magicka and harness cost 3900 but restore up to 4200 magicka ... The sustain is already better with harness, let's not reduce the gap between both shield strength.
    Now some are probably like " Who care, sorc use both shields anyway, no need to choose " but keep in mind we don't shield stack in PVE, let's make the same calculation on a non-pet sorc in PVE.

    16.124HP and 43 431 magicka.
    1. health based cap = 6449
    2. Hardened = (0,48*43431)= 20 846, affected by the health based cap = 6449.
    3. Harness = (0,38*43431)/2= 15 200, affected by the health based cap = 6449.
    Tell me how the choice is even interesting between both ? there is a 1K magicka cost difference between both, and harness restore up to 4200 magicka when you fight boss/mobs that deal magic/elemental damage.

    The change is far better than a cast-time, but they could add some slight changes, 60% health based cap for conjured ward and morphs is one of them ( keep it 40% for harness).

    The 10% increased strenght on Harneded ward isn't gonna be interesting, since we have low health and high magicka in PVE, I wonder how they plan to balance both morphs.

  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
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    it should be 10% of your health, NOT 40%
    rest assured, that i did read your response to my feedback comment(s), i always do. and unless i respond back to your comment directly, then i will always stand by my original feedback statement.
  • Apherius
    Apherius
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    it should be 10% of your health, NOT 40%

    Let's imagine a sorc with 24K health and 40K magicka
    1. Health based cap = 2400.
    2. Hardened = 9600 ( [40000*0,48]/2 = 9600 ) reduced to 2400.
    3. Harness = 7000 ([40000*0,35]/2 = 7000) reduced to 2400.

    It means with 24K health you would just need 14K magicka for maximum shield strenght in PVP for both shields.
    With 14K magicka and 24K health :
    1. Health based cap = 2400
    2. Hardened = 3360 reduced to 2400
    3. Harness = 2450 reduced to 2400
    Keep in mind most of the sorc in PVP have 21K health, health based cap = 2100.

    I mean, come on ... Really ? Spend 3K/4K magicka for a shield with a strenght of 2K ? Even Force siphon from the resto staff would be a better defense lel and cost far less magicka.
    threads with nerf requests are made to hurt and nerf other classes out of retaliation and spite and not interested in actual class balance. [...] perhaps now all these cries to nerf nerf nerf and especially destroy other people class defense skill will tone down? for the past 5 years almost every single day we see new threads demanding and pushing Hard to nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf other classes skills. Maybe you guys can back off on trying to push nerfs on other classes constantly. Or are you going to just keep spamming new nerf request threads?

    Yup I agree with what you said on this thread , You can ask for a nerf of course, but give arguments, then cries asking for other people class defense skill "nerfs" will tone down.
    Edited by Apherius on September 29, 2018 8:47PM
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
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    it should be 10% of your health, NOT 40%

    Nah man 5%

    Even a brand new player might accidently put a skill point into it if it's 10%. Can't have that now. This has got to be as useless as Bone Shield.

    /s
    Edited by Strider__Roshin on September 29, 2018 8:45PM
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