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Why nerfing the Bear?
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max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Lol, now I know the reason why we see all the weird nerfs and buffs nobody really asked for. Summarized in Gina's post. Nerfs bear damage by 30%, claims that it was to buff the overall DPS. Lawl, what kind of philosophy is that?
A pretty straight forward one, actually. If wardens with bears do 50k DPS and wardens without bears do 40k, what happens when you buff base warden damage by say, 5k? Wardens with bears do 55k and the others do 45k, right? Wardens with bears might at this point be somewhat overpowered and you still have the issue of the bear being a significant increase in DPS compared to other available ultimates.
So, nerf the bear. Wardens get a baseline damage buff while the gap between bear and no bear gets filled in a bit.
But they don't buff it they remove 30% bear damage remove damage on Arctic and buff betty netch.. Wow yeah super buff..
They did more than buff the netch. They increased the damage bonus of Advanced Species. Reduced the cost of Cutting Dive and removed the minimum distance for the damage bonus on Screaming Cliff racer. Made Falcon's Swiftness's morphs give their bonuses just by being slotted rather than having to be activated, which reduces buff management. And they reduced the cost of Scorch. And that's just the damage related buffs.
The Arctic Blast change more or less falls in line with their desire for the Warden frost tree to be a pure tanking tree, which I don't like and neither do a lot of other people. But, that seems to be the direction they want to push frost Wardens into. Frankly at this point I'm chalking the Warden up as being a disappointment on that front and this has been the final straw that caused me to have changed my position on Necromancers. Before this, I was against a new class and instead believed we should limit it to a skill line, much like the Psijic line. Now I think we need a full Necromancer class with a frost tree of their own to answer the call for frost mages that so many people really desire.
Let’s try them keeping all those things you mentioned that they buffed AND leave the bear alone and see if it improves Warden usage numbers.
I use artic blast as a tank. It scales off health. It’s a DOT that scales from health, a stat warden tanks already stack for gripping shards (our talons).
It was already a tanking skill, they don’t need to make that skill any more tanky by messing with it lol. So I reject the logic that they are messing with Artic Blast to make it more tanky because it is already very tanky.#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom3 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Lol, now I know the reason why we see all the weird nerfs and buffs nobody really asked for. Summarized in Gina's post. Nerfs bear damage by 30%, claims that it was to buff the overall DPS. Lawl, what kind of philosophy is that?
A pretty straight forward one, actually. If wardens with bears do 50k DPS and wardens without bears do 40k, what happens when you buff base warden damage by say, 5k? Wardens with bears do 55k and the others do 45k, right? Wardens with bears might at this point be somewhat overpowered and you still have the issue of the bear being a significant increase in DPS compared to other available ultimates.
So, nerf the bear. Wardens get a baseline damage buff while the gap between bear and no bear gets filled in a bit.
But they don't buff it they remove 30% bear damage remove damage on Arctic and buff betty netch.. Wow yeah super buff..
They did more than buff the netch. They increased the damage bonus of Advanced Species. Reduced the cost of Cutting Dive and removed the minimum distance for the damage bonus on Screaming Cliff racer. Made Falcon's Swiftness's morphs give their bonuses just by being slotted rather than having to be activated, which reduces buff management. And they reduced the cost of Scorch. And that's just the damage related buffs.
The Arctic Blast change more or less falls in line with their desire for the Warden frost tree to be a pure tanking tree, which I don't like and neither do a lot of other people. But, that seems to be the direction they want to push frost Wardens into. Frankly at this point I'm chalking the Warden up as being a disappointment on that front and this has been the final straw that caused me to have changed my position on Necromancers. Before this, I was against a new class and instead believed we should limit it to a skill line, much like the Psijic line. Now I think we need a full Necromancer class with a frost tree of their own to answer the call for frost mages that so many people really desire.
Let’s try them keeping all those things you mentioned that they buffed AND leave the bear alone and see if it improves Warden usage numbers.
I use artic blast as a tank. It scales off health. It’s a DOT that scales from health, a stat warden tanks already stack for gripping shards (our talons).
It was already a tanking skill, they don’t need to make that skill any more tanky by messing with it lol. So I reject the logic that they are messing with Artic Blast to make it more tanky because it is already very tanky.
What I mean is that they are making it more of a tank utility skill. As in they are pushing frost to be all about the "tank" part of being a tank and moving it even further away from the "damage" part of being a tank.
Basically, to me, it seems more of a philosophical decision rather than a numbers decision. One that I do not agree with, personally.Edited by Glurin on September 23, 2018 7:01AM"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."1 -
fierackas✭✭✭✭✭"This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss."
Meaning anyone who uses the bear will see a greater DPS loss. Guess I'll scrap the bear and become another homogenised Stam DPS character using generic ultimates.5 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TheInfernalRage wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.
The logic here relies on the idea that the Warden is an already powerful class equal to a Nightblade. Unfortunately, they are not. I get that there is a balancing act here. You take damage away from the Bear and place it somewhere in the Warden's kit. So, the gain "should be 1-2% of what it was before". BUT, 1-2% gain is not enough for the Warden. I don't know if you guys are playing the Warden, but have you tried not nerfing the Bear and see if that places the Warden on par with a Nightblade?
There seems to be a movement here against whatever makes the class unique. You already took away the third bar of the Sorcerer and you also nerf the Bear of the Warden. I hope you guys are not implying that in order to "balance" the classes, you will strip away difference in favor of homogeneity, while maintaining a single-class (Nightblade) dominance in the damage dealing department.
I was about to agree but then I see you’re biased against Nightblades. Those of us who’ve played long enough know that Nightblades are on top now but it used to be 8 Sorcerers, 1 dk, 1 templar set up for a long time. Nightblades were only good for Dark Brotherhood/Thieves Guild quests, if that. MagDk had a short time to shine, Templar hasn’t shined in a long while, but they had it and Sorc domination lasted a good long while. It used to be the only class that had any kind of consistency in vMA to the point where advice for vMA newbs was to make a Sorc purely for running it to get weapons for the other classes.
Anyway Wardens don’t need to be number 1 across the board. We can be number 2 at some things but right now we are actually #2 aka shif
They are #5 in DPS.0 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.
The logic here relies on the idea that the Warden is an already powerful class equal to a Nightblade. Unfortunately, they are not. I get that there is a balancing act here. You take damage away from the Bear and place it somewhere in the Warden's kit. So, the gain "should be 1-2% of what it was before". BUT, 1-2% gain is not enough for the Warden. I don't know if you guys are playing the Warden, but have you tried not nerfing the Bear and see if that places the Warden on par with a Nightblade?
There seems to be a movement here against whatever makes the class unique. You already took away the third bar of the Sorcerer and you also nerf the Bear of the Warden. I hope you guys are not implying that in order to "balance" the classes, you will strip away difference in favor of homogeneity, while maintaining a single-class (Nightblade) dominance in the damage dealing department.
I was about to agree but then I see you’re biased against Nightblades. Those of us who’ve played long enough know that Nightblades are on top now but it used to be 8 Sorcerers, 1 dk, 1 templar set up for a long time. Nightblades were only good for Dark Brotherhood/Thieves Guild quests, if that. MagDk had a short time to shine, Templar hasn’t shined in a long while, but they had it and Sorc domination lasted a good long while. It used to be the only class that had any kind of consistency in vMA to the point where advice for vMA newbs was to make a Sorc purely for running it to get weapons for the other classes.
Anyway Wardens don’t need to be number 1 across the board. We can be number 2 at some things but right now we are actually #2 aka shif
They are #5 in DPS.
I know that. #2 is a euphemism for poop.
#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom3 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭"This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss."
Meaning anyone who uses the bear will see a greater DPS loss. Guess I'll scrap the bear and become another homogenised Stam DPS character using generic ultimates.
When taken out of context, yes, it could mean that. When taken with everything else that was stated, it's pretty clear she was specifically referring to the DPS difference between using the bear and not using the bear. ie. when using the bear you get say 5k more DPS than if you use some other ultimate.
Context matters."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
JohnOfMarkarth✭✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno
Are devs... still seriously defending this?
Is this still defended... ?
Or is it really the goal to make everything homogeneous, flavorless and bland?
"People use bear too much. lets nerf it"
instead of lazyassing it... THINK before you act... instead of just... acting.
you take out most of flavor just so all is flavorless and bland.
i will repeat myself
instead of writing: "Dont dead, open inside" on the Bear door... make all the doors appealing..
you did not make people like other skills more... just kicked people out of a flavorful skill.
Also am doing my extra best to not summon Jessica to sprinkle [Edits] into my cerealsI can't do this anymore. Every small ... petit change that went against any semblance of sense has snowballed into an avalanche of (Penn & Teller:) Bulls...!
Gods, bless me with patience.4 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭"This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss."
Meaning anyone who uses the bear will see a greater DPS loss. Guess I'll scrap the bear and become another homogenised Stam DPS character using generic ultimates.
When taken out of context, yes, it could mean that. When taken with everything else that was stated, it's pretty clear she was specifically referring to the DPS difference between using the bear and not using the bear. ie. when using the bear you get say 5k more DPS than if you use some other ultimate.
Context matters.
The DPS difference between using the Bear or not on Dummy tests . On Live, right now, the Bear only pulls slightly more DPS on static fights, for anything else just go Destro ult.
That's the context.
This game is not about achieving the highest Dummy parse, there's no achievement for that, it's just that meaningless. You need to complete content, and in that content/context, the Bear s...ks.1 -
MooseKnuckles88✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Lol, now I know the reason why we see all the weird nerfs and buffs nobody really asked for. Summarized in Gina's post. Nerfs bear damage by 30%, claims that it was to buff the overall DPS. Lawl, what kind of philosophy is that?
A pretty straight forward one, actually. If wardens with bears do 50k DPS and wardens without bears do 40k, what happens when you buff base warden damage by say, 5k? Wardens with bears do 55k and the others do 45k, right? Wardens with bears might at this point be somewhat overpowered and you still have the issue of the bear being a significant increase in DPS compared to other available ultimates.
So, nerf the bear. Wardens get a baseline damage buff while the gap between bear and no bear gets filled in a bit.
But they don't buff it they remove 30% bear damage remove damage on Arctic and buff betty netch.. Wow yeah super buff..IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Lol, now I know the reason why we see all the weird nerfs and buffs nobody really asked for. Summarized in Gina's post. Nerfs bear damage by 30%, claims that it was to buff the overall DPS. Lawl, what kind of philosophy is that?
A pretty straight forward one, actually. If wardens with bears do 50k DPS and wardens without bears do 40k, what happens when you buff base warden damage by say, 5k? Wardens with bears do 55k and the others do 45k, right? Wardens with bears might at this point be somewhat overpowered and you still have the issue of the bear being a significant increase in DPS compared to other available ultimates.
So, nerf the bear. Wardens get a baseline damage buff while the gap between bear and no bear gets filled in a bit.
You are talking about Target Dummy parses, right?
I don't think the game should be balanced around those parses.
First, those are Single Target parses, while real combat situations require AOE most of the time (Bear is useless in that regard).
Second, when in comes to the Bear, it's Damage output is really different in a Dummy test or real combat situations (read many posts above about how the Bear's AI leads to severe DPS loss).
The logic behind the nerf is sound, but the context is wrong: it misses the bigger picture.
Edit: not to mention 30% is huge, Wardens could bear 10%, anything more and many people will loose interest in that class, since the main attractive is - guess what? - the Bear
Yeah dummy targets don't hit back.. Dead bear is no damage at all..BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »I thought ZOS was clear and upfront as to why the Bear was nerfed specifically with damage compensation bumps generally. The stated reason was "we hear you that the Warden players want to be less dependent on the Bear for DPS". In other words, ZOS rightly or wrongly has come to believe from feedback via the Warden class Reps, this forum and via other venues that in general Warden folk do not want to depend on the Bear. Here they are doing exactly what "we" have all been pleading them to do and here we are all booing at them. So they nerfed the Bear's damage but bumped damage via the passives etc.
Clearly they are in a no win situation and we all know it. Don't nerf the Bear, they suck; nerf the Bear they still suck.
I run the Bear in PVP and while extremially fustrating, it can be effective, really effective. Amazingly effective. You got to know how to maximize the Bear, it all too often was subject to the whims of the Bear "working" as well as the RNG gods, but damn when it all came together ... I know for a fact quite a few hardcore solo 1v1 PvP's were shocked with a WTF just happened. The Bear was underappreciated in PvP as well as PVE IMHO.
I'll miss the Bear big time. My play build and style is very much Bear centric. I'd prefer they had not changed it, but I do see where the Medium Armor and Animal passive damage bumps, Bird Of Prey static buff etc should allow for some different Warden setups now.
But don't get all mad at ZOS for doing what they think we've all been asking them to do.
If I'm off base on this, please, Warden Class Reps, please step in here and clarifiy what sort of feedback concerning Warden Bear has come via that channel to ZOS?
But we haven't been asking them.. hence the pve anger.. I never asked for a bear nerf or an Arctic blast nerf, i couldn't care less about some useless stun..now i wont even use the damn skill and will probably quit ESO altogether, losing customers to support broken pvp is bad business.
I don't even use the bird skill as its garbage, flies are garbage.. scortch and its morph are too slow and way to easy to miss with, ice skills are so tanking niche now when they should be primarily damage based...
The whole wobble warden design is a failure.. Warden needs to go back to how it was at morrowind release because what it is now is garbage..
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Wardens might not be the class for you. Lol.
As for the changes they made, most them I support, all except nerfing the bear down 30%, a gradual shift would have been nice, but 30% is too much too soon. It is what it is, and it won't keep me from playing the class still, I'll just have to make some changes like every other class out there has to. Some classes have to adjust more than others. And all the new patches that rolled out are still subject to change, so you never can be too sure until it's live.1 -
fierackas✭✭✭✭✭This nerf is far more important than the shield one but is being drowned out by the shrieks and moans coming from the sorc community
3 -
DanteYoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Lol, now I know the reason why we see all the weird nerfs and buffs nobody really asked for. Summarized in Gina's post. Nerfs bear damage by 30%, claims that it was to buff the overall DPS. Lawl, what kind of philosophy is that?
A pretty straight forward one, actually. If wardens with bears do 50k DPS and wardens without bears do 40k, what happens when you buff base warden damage by say, 5k? Wardens with bears do 55k and the others do 45k, right? Wardens with bears might at this point be somewhat overpowered and you still have the issue of the bear being a significant increase in DPS compared to other available ultimates.
So, nerf the bear. Wardens get a baseline damage buff while the gap between bear and no bear gets filled in a bit.
But they don't buff it they remove 30% bear damage remove damage on Arctic and buff betty netch.. Wow yeah super buff..
They did more than buff the netch. They increased the damage bonus of Advanced Species. Reduced the cost of Cutting Dive and removed the minimum distance for the damage bonus on Screaming Cliff racer. Made Falcon's Swiftness's morphs give their bonuses just by being slotted rather than having to be activated, which reduces buff management. And they reduced the cost of Scorch. And that's just the damage related buffs.
The Arctic Blast change more or less falls in line with their desire for the Warden frost tree to be a pure tanking tree, which I don't like and neither do a lot of other people. But, that seems to be the direction they want to push frost Wardens into. Frankly at this point I'm chalking the Warden up as being a disappointment on that front and this has been the final straw that caused me to have changed my position on Necromancers. Before this, I was against a new class and instead believed we should limit it to a skill line, much like the Psijic line. Now I think we need a full Necromancer class with a frost tree of their own to answer the call for frost mages that so many people really desire.
Well looks like i'm leaving in Nov .. oh well.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Lol, now I know the reason why we see all the weird nerfs and buffs nobody really asked for. Summarized in Gina's post. Nerfs bear damage by 30%, claims that it was to buff the overall DPS. Lawl, what kind of philosophy is that?
A pretty straight forward one, actually. If wardens with bears do 50k DPS and wardens without bears do 40k, what happens when you buff base warden damage by say, 5k? Wardens with bears do 55k and the others do 45k, right? Wardens with bears might at this point be somewhat overpowered and you still have the issue of the bear being a significant increase in DPS compared to other available ultimates.
So, nerf the bear. Wardens get a baseline damage buff while the gap between bear and no bear gets filled in a bit.
But they don't buff it they remove 30% bear damage remove damage on Arctic and buff betty netch.. Wow yeah super buff..
They did more than buff the netch. They increased the damage bonus of Advanced Species. Reduced the cost of Cutting Dive and removed the minimum distance for the damage bonus on Screaming Cliff racer. Made Falcon's Swiftness's morphs give their bonuses just by being slotted rather than having to be activated, which reduces buff management. And they reduced the cost of Scorch. And that's just the damage related buffs.
The Arctic Blast change more or less falls in line with their desire for the Warden frost tree to be a pure tanking tree, which I don't like and neither do a lot of other people. But, that seems to be the direction they want to push frost Wardens into. Frankly at this point I'm chalking the Warden up as being a disappointment on that front and this has been the final straw that caused me to have changed my position on Necromancers. Before this, I was against a new class and instead believed we should limit it to a skill line, much like the Psijic line. Now I think we need a full Necromancer class with a frost tree of their own to answer the call for frost mages that so many people really desire.
Let’s try them keeping all those things you mentioned that they buffed AND leave the bear alone and see if it improves Warden usage numbers.
I use artic blast as a tank. It scales off health. It’s a DOT that scales from health, a stat warden tanks already stack for gripping shards (our talons).
It was already a tanking skill, they don’t need to make that skill any more tanky by messing with it lol. So I reject the logic that they are messing with Artic Blast to make it more tanky because it is already very tanky.
What I mean is that they are making it more of a tank utility skill. As in they are pushing frost to be all about the "tank" part of being a tank and moving it even further away from the "damage" part of being a tank.
Basically, to me, it seems more of a philosophical decision rather than a numbers decision. One that I do not agree with, personally.
Its not useful because the skill can only be used when things are in your face.. tanks need to be able to pull trash to them. Arctic no longer does that..MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Lol, now I know the reason why we see all the weird nerfs and buffs nobody really asked for. Summarized in Gina's post. Nerfs bear damage by 30%, claims that it was to buff the overall DPS. Lawl, what kind of philosophy is that?
A pretty straight forward one, actually. If wardens with bears do 50k DPS and wardens without bears do 40k, what happens when you buff base warden damage by say, 5k? Wardens with bears do 55k and the others do 45k, right? Wardens with bears might at this point be somewhat overpowered and you still have the issue of the bear being a significant increase in DPS compared to other available ultimates.
So, nerf the bear. Wardens get a baseline damage buff while the gap between bear and no bear gets filled in a bit.
But they don't buff it they remove 30% bear damage remove damage on Arctic and buff betty netch.. Wow yeah super buff..IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Lol, now I know the reason why we see all the weird nerfs and buffs nobody really asked for. Summarized in Gina's post. Nerfs bear damage by 30%, claims that it was to buff the overall DPS. Lawl, what kind of philosophy is that?
A pretty straight forward one, actually. If wardens with bears do 50k DPS and wardens without bears do 40k, what happens when you buff base warden damage by say, 5k? Wardens with bears do 55k and the others do 45k, right? Wardens with bears might at this point be somewhat overpowered and you still have the issue of the bear being a significant increase in DPS compared to other available ultimates.
So, nerf the bear. Wardens get a baseline damage buff while the gap between bear and no bear gets filled in a bit.
You are talking about Target Dummy parses, right?
I don't think the game should be balanced around those parses.
First, those are Single Target parses, while real combat situations require AOE most of the time (Bear is useless in that regard).
Second, when in comes to the Bear, it's Damage output is really different in a Dummy test or real combat situations (read many posts above about how the Bear's AI leads to severe DPS loss).
The logic behind the nerf is sound, but the context is wrong: it misses the bigger picture.
Edit: not to mention 30% is huge, Wardens could bear 10%, anything more and many people will loose interest in that class, since the main attractive is - guess what? - the Bear
Yeah dummy targets don't hit back.. Dead bear is no damage at all..BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »I thought ZOS was clear and upfront as to why the Bear was nerfed specifically with damage compensation bumps generally. The stated reason was "we hear you that the Warden players want to be less dependent on the Bear for DPS". In other words, ZOS rightly or wrongly has come to believe from feedback via the Warden class Reps, this forum and via other venues that in general Warden folk do not want to depend on the Bear. Here they are doing exactly what "we" have all been pleading them to do and here we are all booing at them. So they nerfed the Bear's damage but bumped damage via the passives etc.
Clearly they are in a no win situation and we all know it. Don't nerf the Bear, they suck; nerf the Bear they still suck.
I run the Bear in PVP and while extremially fustrating, it can be effective, really effective. Amazingly effective. You got to know how to maximize the Bear, it all too often was subject to the whims of the Bear "working" as well as the RNG gods, but damn when it all came together ... I know for a fact quite a few hardcore solo 1v1 PvP's were shocked with a WTF just happened. The Bear was underappreciated in PvP as well as PVE IMHO.
I'll miss the Bear big time. My play build and style is very much Bear centric. I'd prefer they had not changed it, but I do see where the Medium Armor and Animal passive damage bumps, Bird Of Prey static buff etc should allow for some different Warden setups now.
But don't get all mad at ZOS for doing what they think we've all been asking them to do.
If I'm off base on this, please, Warden Class Reps, please step in here and clarifiy what sort of feedback concerning Warden Bear has come via that channel to ZOS?
But we haven't been asking them.. hence the pve anger.. I never asked for a bear nerf or an Arctic blast nerf, i couldn't care less about some useless stun..now i wont even use the damn skill and will probably quit ESO altogether, losing customers to support broken pvp is bad business.
I don't even use the bird skill as its garbage, flies are garbage.. scortch and its morph are too slow and way to easy to miss with, ice skills are so tanking niche now when they should be primarily damage based...
The whole wobble warden design is a failure.. Warden needs to go back to how it was at morrowind release because what it is now is garbage..
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Wardens might not be the class for you. Lol.
As for the changes they made, most them I support, all except nerfing the bear down 30%, a gradual shift would have been nice, but 30% is too much too soon. It is what it is, and it won't keep me from playing the class still, I'll just have to make some changes like every other class out there has to. Some classes have to adjust more than others. And all the new patches that rolled out are still subject to change, so you never can be too sure until it's live.
Seeing as i have two wardens i have to disagree.. they were fine till this *** patch..Edited by DanteYoda on September 25, 2018 3:56PM2 -
Reistr_the_Unbroken✭✭✭✭✭
✭Apparently to circle jerk back and forth until we're all playing the game with wet ramen noodles as weapons. AKA it's all to appease the PVP crowd who complain about balance that will never, ever be possible to achieve.
The very notion of balance in any RPG style game is like a unicorn that *** diamonds under a rainbow. It doesn't, and realistically cannot exist.
Bingo... PvP crowd cryers are damaging the game for everyone!
You do realise there are whiners in both PvE and PvP camps ye?, I remember numerous examples of PvE peeps whining about Doshia and Molag Bal, and ofc the salt of playing in IC.
Not all PvPers whine and want nerfs, some of us just adapt and kill, it is the oh I died, it must be nerfed, sadly that mindset is active in PvE and PvP.
Wait. People whined about Molag Bal? Why?
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TiZzA93✭✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno no-one will ever let a bear warden in competitive end game anyway so why did the bear even need a nerf, like others have said a dummy parse does not represent all the mechanics, movement adds etc which already put bears as a big NO4 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_GinaBruno no-one will ever let a bear warden in competitive end game anyway so why did the bear even need a nerf, like others have said a dummy parse does not represent all the mechanics, movement adds etc which already put bears as a big NO
Bear didn't looked good on charts,
Sadly, it is the casual player, that seek entertainment in a video game, that ends up suffering with this nerf,
Or maybe it's because overland content is too easy because of the Bear 0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Warden DPS on the PTS has never been lower. How can ZOS go agead with these changes without testing first?3 -
Zathras✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Warden DPS on the PTS has never been lower. How can ZOS go agead with these changes without testing first?
It seems it wasn't the only thing they didn't test. From a discussion in another thread, the shield nerf has been backtracked quite a bit as well.
There are so many ways they could have tweaked the Warden. The forums here and on Reddit are full of great suggestions. Nuking the bear by 30% is so way out on left field it's not even funny. Due to terrible pathing, AI, and skill misfiring, the bear was unreliable at best in actual combat. DPS dummy parsing, as the only metric they seem to be using, is an unrealistic measure as it doesn't factor the misses, or stuns, or poorly coded AI.
There is a reason there aren't full groups of Wardens doing trials. There is a reason why the Leaderboards aren't dominated by Wardens. There is a reason why they are a last tier class for picks in grouping.
..it certainly isn't because of an OP bear that is tearing up content.
I suggest that the Warden as a class be given a very hard look, and past and present feedback on how to improve it's position in the game be read and taken into consideration.
A hard nerf of 30% is absurd.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobbel @ZOS_JessicaFolsomFor a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen. - Douglas Adams
It is a rare mind indeed that can render the hitherto non-existent blindingly obvious. The cry 'I could have thought of that' is a very popular and misleading one, for the fact is that they didn't, and a very significant and revealing fact it is too. - Douglas Adams9 -
SRTtoZ✭✭✭That's the lazy fix. The real fix is to bake the bear into the class as either a passive or regular castable skill. Then come up with a new ult for that tree. The bear should be the Wardens pet regardless of what your role is. It's already a double slotted ult which is extremely annoying and now its getting nerfed. The goal should be to make this class fun and clearly it's not. Look at the % of players who play Wardens (2%).4
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BrianLovesLisa✭✭✭✭✭Yes the weakest class in the game needed a NERF yet the strongest dps in the game can pull 78k DPS ( that I have seen in a Vet DLC HM dungeon ) Single Target >.<2
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AbysmalGhul✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Wrobel saw endgame usage numbers for the warden, and asked himself "how can I make this number even smaller?"
I would make a comment, but I might get talked to again in private
5 -
Zathras✭✭✭✭✭That's the lazy fix. The real fix is to bake the bear into the class as either a passive or regular castable skill. Then come up with a new ult for that tree. The bear should be the Wardens pet regardless of what your role is. It's already a double slotted ult which is extremely annoying and now its getting nerfed. The goal should be to make this class fun and clearly it's not. Look at the % of players who play Wardens (2%).
In the proposed state, on the PTS, they should make it a single slot skill at this point. Double slotting it with 30% reduced effectiveness is simply not viable if you want to succeed as a Warden. If they did that, this nerf might be more palatable.
What the devs need to do is get away from the the trend of drastic, class altering nerfs. The bear is iconic to the Warden. In what other ways can they improve the class without neutering its identity?Edited by Zathras on September 29, 2018 12:52PMFor a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen. - Douglas Adams
It is a rare mind indeed that can render the hitherto non-existent blindingly obvious. The cry 'I could have thought of that' is a very popular and misleading one, for the fact is that they didn't, and a very significant and revealing fact it is too. - Douglas Adams5 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That's the lazy fix. The real fix is to bake the bear into the class as either a passive or regular castable skill. Then come up with a new ult for that tree. The bear should be the Wardens pet regardless of what your role is. It's already a double slotted ult which is extremely annoying and now its getting nerfed. The goal should be to make this class fun and clearly it's not. Look at the % of players who play Wardens (2%).
In the proposed state, on the PTS, they should make it a single slot skill at this point. Double slotting it with 30% reduced effectiveness is simply not viable if you want to succeed as a Warden. If they did that, this nerf might be more palatable.
What the devs need to do is get away from the the trend of drastic, class altering nerfs. The bear is iconic to the Warden. In what other ways can they improve the class without neutering its identity?
Don’t speak of neuter my bear!#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom0 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mephisto939 wrote: »A 30% damage nerf??? Has anyone even complained that Guardian was outperforming? Well so much for the main selling feature of the Warden.
I've had duelists report me for 14k Bear attacks o.o
Maybe you should stop using Selene's when dueling!
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MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That's the lazy fix. The real fix is to bake the bear into the class as either a passive or regular castable skill. Then come up with a new ult for that tree. The bear should be the Wardens pet regardless of what your role is. It's already a double slotted ult which is extremely annoying and now its getting nerfed. The goal should be to make this class fun and clearly it's not. Look at the % of players who play Wardens (2%).
In the proposed state, on the PTS, they should make it a single slot skill at this point. Double slotting it with 30% reduced effectiveness is simply not viable if you want to succeed as a Warden. If they did that, this nerf might be more palatable.
What the devs need to do is get away from the the trend of drastic, class altering nerfs. The bear is iconic to the Warden. In what other ways can they improve the class without neutering its identity?
It always needed to be a single-bar skill, but especially now. It's still the magden's strongest ultimate due to just how weak the class is overall (even after all the buffs to passives). The bear is also needed to proc the Master Architect 5pc bonus, which is the only group utility the magden provides. It's sad when you need to rely on a set for group utility because your class has none baked into its skills.Edited by MLGProPlayer on September 30, 2018 8:09PM0 -
Zathras✭✭✭✭✭That's the lazy fix. The real fix is to bake the bear into the class as either a passive or regular castable skill. Then come up with a new ult for that tree. The bear should be the Wardens pet regardless of what your role is. It's already a double slotted ult which is extremely annoying and now its getting nerfed. The goal should be to make this class fun and clearly it's not. Look at the % of players who play Wardens (2%).
In the proposed state, on the PTS, they should make it a single slot skill at this point. Double slotting it with 30% reduced effectiveness is simply not viable if you want to succeed as a Warden. If they did that, this nerf might be more palatable.
What the devs need to do is get away from the the trend of drastic, class altering nerfs. The bear is iconic to the Warden. In what other ways can they improve the class without neutering its identity?
Don’t speak of neuter my bear!
They've already booked the appointment at the vet's office, and he's sharpening his shears.For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen. - Douglas Adams
It is a rare mind indeed that can render the hitherto non-existent blindingly obvious. The cry 'I could have thought of that' is a very popular and misleading one, for the fact is that they didn't, and a very significant and revealing fact it is too. - Douglas Adams1 -
zTrok✭✭✭Just so everyone knows, the bear is still pulling 3-4k higher than destro ulti on a 6mil. I've tested this very thuroughly so please tag me if you have questions.0 -
zTrok✭✭✭MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »
In Wolfhunter I was hitting 45k and I have not been able to surpass 43k on Murkmire PTS.
I've used Necropotence, Master Architect, and Valkyn Skoria along with a vMA inferno when testing with bear.
Witchmother's Potent Brew was used in both tests as well.
On PTS only I tested the difference between bear and non-bear
When testing the difference between bear and nonbear I used; Mother's Sorrow, Siroria (non-perfected), and Valkyn Skoria. With the only difference between parses being me using bear and me using Northern Storm front and Destro back. With bear I pulled 42k (almost 43) and with destro I pulled 39k (almost 40)
Overall my testing used the same skill bars with exception being ultimate. I'm still testing to see if Subterranean Assault will make up for the seeming dps loss we have incurred this patch.
Do note all of this was self with self applied Ele Drain.Edited by zTrok on September 30, 2018 8:24PM0
