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Why nerfing the Bear?
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Rex-Umbra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have never seen a bear used in Cyrodiil, Battleground or Vet Dungeons. I really don't get why it was nerfed...Xbox GT: Rex Umbrah
GM of IMPERIUM since 2015.4 -
omegatay_ESO✭✭✭✭They nerf the classes, so they can justify the champion point increases. Can't have everyone running around one shoting bosses.2 -
Zathras✭✭✭✭✭omegatay_ESO wrote: »They nerf the classes, so they can justify the champion point increases. Can't have everyone running around one shoting bosses.
Damn those Wardens and their OP bears, one-shotting bosses.
Maybe this nerf will quell the multitudes of threads about it.For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen. - Douglas Adams
It is a rare mind indeed that can render the hitherto non-existent blindingly obvious. The cry 'I could have thought of that' is a very popular and misleading one, for the fact is that they didn't, and a very significant and revealing fact it is too. - Douglas Adams8 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭He can bearly one shot squirrels and rabbits.
No one asked for this.#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom1 -
ZOS_GinaBrunoCommunity ManagerWe reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.26 -
BeefyMrTips✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.
Yeah, but werent we trying to get Warden DPS higher and not just trying to keep it near same level without bear? What does a Warden DPS have to offer? (Warden Healers bringing minor toughness) Warden DPS is still too low to be justified in place of a mnb.Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.21 -
Tryxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.
But why not keep the bear strong for high single target DPS? It's a pet that needs to be double barred, meaning we sacrifice the Destruction Staff ultimate for it?
Or are there any future plans for it?"The Oak's Promise: stand strong, stay true, and shelter all"
Tryxus of the Undying Song - Warden - PC/EU/DC13 -
Grayfax✭✭✭Don't get me wrong, I like my bear wardens. Heck, I even got the grey skin so I could match everything going else on my main. But, I'm not going to lie, I like it that my Wood Elf warden isn't locked into bear so that I can try out different possibilities.3 -
ccmedaddy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I know it's an unpopular opinion but this change needed to happen IMO. I hated the fact that the bear was pretty much required for magwardens to do competitive DPS in PvE while pets are generally frowned upon in endgame content.
And because the bear does so much DPS, they can't buff other class skills without magwardens suddenly becoming miles ahead of other mag classes (at least as far as skeleton dummy numbers go). AFAIK, magwardens w/ bear is second only to magblades on live in terms of dps, yet no one still wants a magwarden in their vet trial group.
Now that the bear is less of a DPS boost over other ultimates hopefully ZOS can figure out a way to boost the rest of the Warden kit.3 -
SteveCampsOut✭✭✭✭✭
✭Reminds me of the time my mom took away all my stuffed animals
"Aren't you a little too old for teddybears?"
*** Mom! I loved that bear!@ֆȶɛʋɛƈǟʍքֆօʊȶ ʀʋʟɨʄɛ⍟
Sanguine & Psijic Group Beta Tester.
Steve's Craftiness Find out what I can make for you at my Google Doc Spreadsheet.
Pacrooti's Hirelings Website:
pacrootis.enjin.com/
NA Server:Steforax Soulstrong CH782 Sorcerer ADEU Server:
Grumpy Kahjiti CH782 Dragonknight AD
Rheticia Le Drakisius CH782 Nightblade DC
Razmuzan Thrasmas CH782 Templar EP
Sheenara Soulstrong CH782 Dragonknight DC
Erik Ramzey CH782 Nightblade AD
Growling Kahjiti CH782 Nightblade EP
One of Many Faces CH782 Sorcerer DC
Grumpasaurus Rex CH782 Warden DCGuildmaster of Pacrooti's Hirelings AD Based LGBT Friendly Guild.ESO Plus status: Canceled!
Stefrex Souliss CH701 Sorcerer AD
Grumpy Kahjiti CH701 Dragonknight DC
Slithisi Ksissi CH701 Nightblade EP
Pokes-With-Fire CH701 Dragonknight AD
Josie-The-Pussi-Cat CH701 Templar AD
Stug-Grog M'God CH701 Templar DC
One With Many Faces CH701 Nightblade DC
Trixie Truskan CH701 Sorcerer EP
Grumpetasaurus Rex CH701 Warden EP1 -
Grayfax✭✭✭SteveCampsOut wrote: »
Mom... you're never too old for Neverborn!!! And don't mess with Teddy!!!2 -
Prabooo✭✭✭✭I know it's an unpopular opinion but this change needed to happen IMO. I hated the fact that the bear was pretty much required for magwardens to do competitive DPS in PvE while pets are generally frowned upon in endgame content.
And because the bear does so much DPS, they can't buff other class skills without magwardens suddenly becoming miles ahead of other mag classes (at least as far as skeleton dummy numbers go). AFAIK, magwardens w/ bear is second only to magblades on live in terms of dps, yet no one still wants a magwarden in their vet trial group.
Now that the bear is less of a DPS boost over other ultimates hopefully ZOS can figure out a way to boost the rest of the Warden kit.
so... the Bear has to be nerfed so the Magwarden doesn't make it SECOND in dummy parses, yet magwardens were never wanted for vet trial groups... ok...5 -
Feric51✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.
I'm confused. That whole sentence reads like a non sequitur. Let's look at each phrase....- We reduced the damage of [the] bear so we could buff the base damage of wardens - So, sounds like the changes they made to wardens in general should be a boost to all DPS skills that are not the bear.
- the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species - Advanced Species buff was an additional 1% damage (3% instead of 2%) per animal ability slotted, so by slotting the bear you gain an additional 3% damage over a non-bear user to compensate for the 30% damage reduction of the bear. However, if you didn't previously use the bear and had several other Animal Companion abilities slotted, it sounds like a net DPS gain. Cool.
- This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss. - Huh? You just said the changes to Warden were a buff to everything but the bear, yet the final statement says non-bear users will see "less of a loss"? So that means all wardens are expected to see a net DPS loss, those who use the bear will just be hit harder?
Even after explaining it to myself, I'm still confused....
Edited by Feric51 on September 19, 2018 10:49PMFeric51
Xbox NADarkness Falls: The Crusade survivor (you young kids will never know the struggle of text-based games)20 - We reduced the damage of [the] bear so we could buff the base damage of wardens - So, sounds like the changes they made to wardens in general should be a boost to all DPS skills that are not the bear.
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keevil111✭✭✭✭Right, no one likes the bear. The idea is to be able to dps without reliance on the bear. So bear or no bear, dps should be same or similar. Once they reach that balance they will implement more damage to increase magden dps somewhere.
Note, warden will never achieve highest dps. It is a utility class. #2 tank and #2 healer already. If they buff dps too much, all groups would be just wardens with one dk and one templar.
PS4 NA3 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭[*]This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss. - Huh? You just said the changes to Warden were a buff to everything but the bear, yet the final statement says non-bear users will see "less of a loss"? So that means all wardens are expected to see a net DPS loss, those who use the bear will just be hit harder?[/list]
I think what she's saying is that if you don't use the bear, you won't see as much DPS loss compared to those that do use the bear. Not that you're getting a DPS loss across the board."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."1 -
AlienatedGoat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.
@ZOS_GinaBruno You guys do realize this doesn't improve warden DPS at all? Even though they are the lowest PvE DPS class (especially magward)?
Warden DPS desperately needs more work.PC-NA Goat3 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wardens have good DPS on target dummies.
They have innate access to Major Breach/Fracture and Minor Bersek. That alone inflates dummy parses by a lot.
And of course, the Bear, against an immovable target dummy, will pull high numbers.
But not so much in real fights, especially in new content where bosses teleport around a lot. It's actually funny to see that fella running around try to hit the boss, unless of course you just heavy attacked some random add that needs to be taken down, so the Bear runs back and forth doing - drum rolls- 0 DPS.
Also while the Bear is dead it does -drum rolls- 0 DPS, again.
Or when the bear is CC'ed and he does -drum rolls- 0 DPS, again.
And of course while you're stuck casting the teddy you're doing -drum rolls- well, maybe you have some DoT's running
BUT you might die while casting it so again, 0 DPS + 0 DPS from the guy stuck rezing you.
Nerf to the Bear results in looking at numbers only - and numbers that are not even drowned from real combat situation to make it worse.
Nerf to the Bear is way too severe and is pretty much a death sentence to the poor Teddy, as far as combat goes (not talking about RP'ging in towns).
I have a dream that one day both Devs and Players would let go of dummy parses. The game will be better for it
14 -
TheInfernalRage✭✭✭✭✭For some clandestine reasoning, someone who never played this game got the most voice and influence in the dev team that gave birth to this PTS iteration.6 -
Feric51✭✭✭✭✭
✭[*]This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss. - Huh? You just said the changes to Warden were a buff to everything but the bear, yet the final statement says non-bear users will see "less of a loss"? So that means all wardens are expected to see a net DPS loss, those who use the bear will just be hit harder?[/list]
I think what she's saying is that if you don't use the bear, you won't see as much DPS loss compared to those that do use the bear. Not that you're getting a DPS loss across the board.
But that's exactly what it says. If the bear is nerfed and you don't use the bear you would see a net 0 difference, not a loss.
But if they supposedly "buffed" warden overall damage and the bear nerf is to compensate for that, then if you didn't use the bear in the first place, it should be a net gain in damage.
Her last line says, "less of a loss" meaning that even those who don't use the bear, now or post-patch, will still see a dps loss post patch. It doesn't make sense...
It should say, "This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will actually see a slight boost to DPS." Unless, of course, they really are nerfing wardens' overall damage regardless of bear use.
Edit for clarification... if that's even possible.Edited by Feric51 on September 19, 2018 8:36PMFeric51
Xbox NADarkness Falls: The Crusade survivor (you young kids will never know the struggle of text-based games)1 -
Caligamy_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.
And what of those who do (or want to) use the bear? This is a senseless nerf to a class that already had little to nothing going for it.
https://youtu.be/-Afx94AEo_k
Suddenly this trailer seems VERY boring if you delete every scene with the bear in it.Edited by Caligamy_ESO on September 23, 2018 7:34AMlove is love12 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.
Basically I can have an ult that:
1. Will never die
2. No 1 second cast time
3. Always is on target and not mindlessly running around
4. Is AoE ult activated vs "It randomly decides with its amazing AI to cast an AoE skill"
vs
1. Resummon the bear if it dies
2. Direct my pet to attack specifically the target I want
3. Hope it uses its AoE correctly
4. Deal with cast times during critial moments
5. Have it unsummoned due to mechanics <Ruins of mazz statue for example>.
6. Deal with AI pathing for the *ultimate* melee range AI to find the correct npc - whoops teleport nm go run off bear!
Basically wardens shouldn't use the bear? The bear was never really amazing in PvE the same way any pet is irritating to use. The closer you bring non pet wardens to pet wardens <noble goal> just means you might as well never summon a bear.
*edit: It just seems weird to me that the *more* difficult ult to manage needs to be nerfed. I could totally understand nerfing them if they revamped the pet system in game. Making them immune to PvE dmg and needing to be one bar slotted only, but that isn't the case so...Edited by karekiz on September 19, 2018 9:05PM5 -
Mephisto939✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.
In order to boost Warden DPS you nerfed the main selling point of the Warden by 30%? Got any extra of the stuff devs are smoking?Why did the Dunmer cross the road?
Apparently to get stuck in an eternal load screen!12 -
BalticBlues✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭While we are at it:
Wardens like the bear, but not at the cost of sacrificing another ultimate.
Suggestion:
1. Make the Bear a regular skill, as the Sorc pets.
2. Let Swarm become the Warden Ultimate.
... and give people a a Stamina and a Magica morph of the new Swarm Ultimate
Edited by BalticBlues on September 19, 2018 9:38PM6 -
Ir0nB34r✭✭✭Mephisto939 wrote: »A 30% damage nerf??? Has anyone even complained that Guardian was outperforming? Well so much for the main selling feature of the Warden.
Nerfs dont only come from player feedback. Developers use game telemetry to gather data on how things are being used, and if a skill seems to be over performing compared to other skills, then they will make changes to bring them in line to their counterparts.
People too often think that 'whining' to developers result in sweeping nerfs, but this isn't exactly true. It only helps bring it to their attention. They run the data, and if the data reinforces the feedback, then nerfs are made.
Keep this in mind when you feel the developers are not listening to people saying something is OP. The data usually paints a better picture. Numbers do not lie, and humans can't help but embellish and be somewhat bias.[XBOX][NA]
Breton | Sorcerer | Damage Dealer - Build Info (Coming Soon)
Breton | Warden | Healer - Build Info (Coming Soon)
Argonian | Dragon Knight | Tank - Build Info (Coming Soon)
(Retired)Breton | Sorcerer | Tank - Build Info (<< Link to Google Docs Page)"If you are quitting, can I have your stuff??"1 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mephisto939 wrote: »A 30% damage nerf??? Has anyone even complained that Guardian was outperforming? Well so much for the main selling feature of the Warden.
Nerfs dont only come from player feedback. Developers use game telemetry to gather data on how things are being used, and if a skill seems to be over performing compared to other skills, then they will make changes to bring them in line to their counterparts.
People too often think that 'whining' to developers result in sweeping nerfs, but this isn't exactly true. It only helps bring it to their attention. They run the data, and if the data reinforces the feedback, then nerfs are made.
Keep this in mind when you feel the developers are not listening to people saying something is OP. The data usually paints a better picture. Numbers do not lie, and humans can't help but embellish and be somewhat bias.
That doesn’t explain why they would nerf the Reason Why We Bought It.
I bought a foot long sub meal that comes with chips and a drink. They took 30% off my sandwich but increased my drink from a medium to a large. That’s nice, I purchased this meal deal for the Sub. I want a whole Sub. In fact you can keep your chips if you will double the toppings on my sub.... I might be a bit hungry actually#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom10 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mephisto939 wrote: »A 30% damage nerf??? Has anyone even complained that Guardian was outperforming? Well so much for the main selling feature of the Warden.
Nerfs dont only come from player feedback. Developers use game telemetry to gather data on how things are being used, and if a skill seems to be over performing compared to other skills, then they will make changes to bring them in line to their counterparts.
People too often think that 'whining' to developers result in sweeping nerfs, but this isn't exactly true. It only helps bring it to their attention. They run the data, and if the data reinforces the feedback, then nerfs are made.
Keep this in mind when you feel the developers are not listening to people saying something is OP. The data usually paints a better picture. Numbers do not lie, and humans can't help but embellish and be somewhat bias.
Number do not lie because they do not speak. They need someone to make an interpretation/ speak for them.
Numbers are not as reliable as they may seem either. Example: Statistics are the most manipulated numbers you can find as you can always find some kind of correlation if you want to.
Data in general is always subject to human interpretation and that is where things can go wrong (not talking about the game but in general).5 -
DanteYoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.
Can you link which skills give the one to two percent increase in the frost line of Warden please.1 -
Wolfpaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.
Thank you for the developer comment/design reason.0
