Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Is DK an inside joke at ZoS or something? Y’all DKs have some real fortitude to keep going, if magsorcs got this treatment the streets would be full of blood and tears

It's SO much better than it used to be. But we really got a fat lot of nothing this patch in spite of DKs providing solid, balanced feedback on our pain points.

Like how they are normalizing our ability ranges... except they didn't.
Or fixing the Engulfing/Noxious hit box problem... untouched.
Or fixing the 0 damage Leap problem... not acknowledged.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Quantum_V , as stamDK, I will say - looking at the numbers above from @Onefrkncrzypope - that all I got was a nerf. Damage was nerfed, and the meager bump to cost of three skills (and savings are only going to drop compared to his numbers when cost reductions are taken into account) is less than a non-Redguard stamDK needs to sustain Crushing Weapons light attack rotation.

Well, now, maybe, I will be able to get away with nerfing myself for one damage glyph instead of two to sustain it. Much good as it does to me.

alright lets say that sentence better....

currently, even with the 6% buff to noxious breath, caltrops does more damage with and without puncture.

Does anyone actually use power lash anymore anyway? Off balance procs are rare and even when you do get off-balance, you have to be VERY good to get two free whips. With the free whip gone, thats the final nail in the power lash morph. It's molten whip from here on out.

I've been on the fence about giving up my power lash as I really love the animation of the free whip but this is it. Bye bye power lash and hello molten whip.

The Eruption change was really great to see. As a magDK, I am indifferent to the changes. They've killed off power lash (to cater to the PvP fanboys wearing their cookie monster hats sideways and sucking on their blueberry vapes and all those tears filling the lakes in Cyrodil) but given us a bit more range to play with.

I can't try them on PTS because I am a console scrub.

I have to wonder why ZOS thought a 6s Hardened Armor was more important than a 10% of HP Igneous Shield.

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey all!

I'll be focused on taking a lot of feedback from this thread. Personally, I think most of the changes were in the right direction, but weren't changed fully or correctly.

As far as stamDK goes, it's good to see them starting to take small steps towards the right directions. A couple of changes to passives oriented towards stamDKs are welcome and a good indicator that ZoS is working on creating a more complete poisons synergy gameplay for stamDKs. I do feel changes were underwhelming though, few passives and the net evolution of the class isn't enough, still a decent way from giving stamDKs what they really need.

As far as mDK goes, things went both ways. Good change to burning embers range increase, nice changes regarding ash cloud for PvE DDs and healers. Removing powerlash stun is actually significant buff to mDKs, but quickly counteracted by adding a cost to the skill. MDKs are arguably the only class that runs Equilibrium for competitive sustained DPS in PvE and PvP sustain can be very tricky post battleroar nerf. I don't really understand the reasoning for this change as the only argument provided by ZoS was a sketchy magsorc comparison. Both classes behave and play very differently, using that as argumentation to implement a change like that isn't justified.

Our next meeting with ZoS is schedueled for Tuesday next week, lets do our best to test things on PTS before attacking/praising them. Please keep the feedback coming so that we can still promote more and better changes.

Thanks everyone!

because we need reduce cost on poison skills? like it was main issue for sustaining stamdks?

Here it is. (This will outline Magicka DK, mostly in a PVE pov. Besidess the shield cast time which is ridiculous, and the whip range nerf / cost increase, there isn't too much happening for pvp. )

First of all, as many have stated, playing a magdk has gotten progressively worse and more and more ostracized in COMPETITIVE PVE content. For a while we were completely out dps'ed by stamina. Then we were also not wanted because of "stealing off balance." Throughout that time, melee were slowly put on sideline in favor for ranged, aka magsorc and magblade. Now go look at any leaderboard cloudrest run and ask what they are running. If you don't want to look, let me spoil it for you, all magblades. Even the healers are sorcs to provide liquid lightning synergy for the tank. On a skeleton, self buffed, running my own drain, my best parse was 49.9k. That should be enough to be somewhat viable in trials. Well, its not. My skills are not ranged. Sure, I could go the ele weapon route or Force pulse route instead of whip but what about burning embers and engulfing flames? No. That's fine, I made it work with whip considering I still had harness to shield myself while standing in the danger zone so to speak. Meanwhile, incoming force pulses by my head from everyone else standing at range and relative safety. So this brings us in to another example of how magdk inadvertently gets the short end of the stick on these whole "combat balance changes" across multiple classes. One second shield cast time. Lets imagine going to cast a shield while the mantikora rears up. oops, that was bad timing. How about Rakkat doing his slam. Cursed. See the picture? Don't get me wrong, I think cast time is terrible for any class, but again, just showing why it hurts the magdk in melee range.
So let's continute....WHIP. The last thing we need is to be pigeon holed constantly with being ever closer to the damn boss (especially now with shield cast time). If you guys are hell bent on nerfing the power lash morph of whip, then just get rid of it. You all said it would bring it more in line with a sorc's crystal fragment. WHY ARE YOU ALL THINKING ABOUT OUR CLASS IN TERMS OF A SORCERER? If so, then whats the deal with fossilize and rune cage? Or how about the fact sorcs have two executes and we have none? Meanwhile they can dps from Timbuktu and stay safe from damage. Whip needs a longer range, or even a morph that would give longer range so that we can continue to stay viable guys. If magdk could somehow offer competitive ranged dps, we may stand a chance. The change to eruption is a great step in the right direction but every time we get thrown a bone, two things get taken away. Many bosses in the game have those pretty regular red aoes around them (the dont stand in the red kind). Magdk's can barely just stand on the outer ring of them and get whips off. Though you usually end up spending all the time finding the sweet spot to hit them before the circle dissipates.
I guess if I could sum most of this up, I would say please stop pigeon holing this class into very close melee in a meta that consistently caters to ranged magicka dps. Melee is actually worse for magicka because very often we don't have the stamina to dodge, break free, etc (dangers we encounter from being right by the boss). A ranged whip would be a very viable option. Also, cast times on shields, no guys. You gotta come up with something different. Church.

Sigtric wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

This isn't terrible as magsorc, but what the frick my dudes.

"tHiS cHaNgE wAs MaDe To HeLp StAnDaRdIzE tHe RaNgE oF aLl DK mElEe AtTaCkS."

Congrats, you did it pretty poorly because now: (unless bugged)
Talons 6
Whip 7 | Was 8
Embers 7 | Was 5
Foss 8
Inhale 8
Engulfing 10
You unequalized one thing and re-equalized it to something else. Wat.

Here is a simple fix. 8m everything, whip, embers, englufing, talons, eruption, spiked armour and leap to 8m, fix engulfing's hitbox. (Give it a 0.5/1s over time that follows you and applies to whoever hits, like hurricane but conal)
Minor nerfs to engulfing and spiked range, but fixes the majority of the DK range issues in the speed meta.

Hey now, using your brain when it comes to DK changes is not allowed! :P

For his sake I hope he did not submit a job application on that fancy new ZOS website because if so, it will suddenly be disregarded in light of this skill of his.

Not to be a nerd but let's please stay on task and constructive please.

pieratsos wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Here it is. (This will outline Magicka DK, mostly in a PVE pov. Besidess the shield cast time which is ridiculous, and the whip range nerf / cost increase, there isn't too much happening for pvp. )

First of all, as many have stated, playing a magdk has gotten progressively worse and more and more ostracized in COMPETITIVE PVE content. For a while we were completely out dps'ed by stamina. Then we were also not wanted because of "stealing off balance." Throughout that time, melee were slowly put on sideline in favor for ranged, aka magsorc and magblade. Now go look at any leaderboard cloudrest run and ask what they are running. If you don't want to look, let me spoil it for you, all magblades. Even the healers are sorcs to provide liquid lightning synergy for the tank. On a skeleton, self buffed, running my own drain, my best parse was 49.9k. That should be enough to be somewhat viable in trials. Well, its not. My skills are not ranged. Sure, I could go the ele weapon route or Force pulse route instead of whip but what about burning embers and engulfing flames? No. That's fine, I made it work with whip considering I still had harness to shield myself while standing in the danger zone so to speak. Meanwhile, incoming force pulses by my head from everyone else standing at range and relative safety. So this brings us in to another example of how magdk inadvertently gets the short end of the stick on these whole "combat balance changes" across multiple classes. One second shield cast time. Lets imagine going to cast a shield while the mantikora rears up. oops, that was bad timing. How about Rakkat doing his slam. Cursed. See the picture? Don't get me wrong, I think cast time is terrible for any class, but again, just showing why it hurts the magdk in melee range.
So let's continute....WHIP. The last thing we need is to be pigeon holed constantly with being ever closer to the damn boss (especially now with shield cast time). If you guys are hell bent on nerfing the power lash morph of whip, then just get rid of it. You all said it would bring it more in line with a sorc's crystal fragment. WHY ARE YOU ALL THINKING ABOUT OUR CLASS IN TERMS OF A SORCERER? If so, then whats the deal with fossilize and rune cage? Or how about the fact sorcs have two executes and we have none? Meanwhile they can dps from Timbuktu and stay safe from damage. Whip needs a longer range, or even a morph that would give longer range so that we can continue to stay viable guys. If magdk could somehow offer competitive ranged dps, we may stand a chance. The change to eruption is a great step in the right direction but every time we get thrown a bone, two things get taken away. Many bosses in the game have those pretty regular red aoes around them (the dont stand in the red kind). Magdk's can barely just stand on the outer ring of them and get whips off. Though you usually end up spending all the time finding the sweet spot to hit them before the circle dissipates.
I guess if I could sum most of this up, I would say please stop pigeon holing this class into very close melee in a meta that consistently caters to ranged magicka dps. Melee is actually worse for magicka because very often we don't have the stamina to dodge, break free, etc (dangers we encounter from being right by the boss). A ranged whip would be a very viable option. Also, cast times on shields, no guys. You gotta come up with something different. Church.

Are you seriously whining about sorcs? Lmao.

Really? You read that and that’s what you got out of it? Come on dude....

Man, I'm so glad I abandoned this hopeless class year ago.

While I'm not necessarily opposed to these changes. I am not quite sure why these changes were made.

Does this mean Trapping Webs will actually be useful for DKs? Since the cost is down so much.

Thanks for nothing!

Also ,@Quantum_V Tell me, is this really a step in the right direction? Or yet another meme change?

First of all, stamDK poison abilities are already cheaper relative to weapon ability counterparts ( blood craze and brawler comes to mind)
StamDK still has terribly expensive magicka utility and its not even accepted by the devs.

second of all, poison dots are terribly weak in terms of damage and utility compared to bleeds or magicka counterparts.

Third : There are only two abilities that will realistically benefit from these changes in PvP, and 3 in PvE. Nobody uses acid spray. Nobody but like 2 people left on planet earth plays a bow stamDK in PvP, lets get real.


So, with all my respect to you, Can you kindly explain to me, how am I supposed to not feel offended by these ''fake buffs'' I'm seeing?
Its almost as bad as the infamous ''this is a buff if'' from morrowind. This World in Ruin change is just there so that Wrobel can ignore us for yet another 3 months. And the best part is ; You're completely fine with that.

Claws , the dot that is supposed to be about PURE DAMAGE over time, does less damage per tick than a free axe bleed, even with a penetration based build , also doesn't have a heal like blood craze or embers.

Noxious breath , actually took a %6 damage nerf now. I mean, really? Okay, whatever I guess, its already the worst ability ever. I guess 300 damage per tick was too much for us.

I'm not even gonna start on how laughable hardened armor is.

How is that even fair? How is this not mentioned? (Yes I have to ask this to you because zenimax simply ignores me. Only you could maybe make a difference on that, however I'm doubtful of even that now. I'm not even gonna bother tagging Wrobel here because I know he doesn't give a crap, he never did, in his vision this class should lack any offensive capabilities cause that would make it an actual class instead of a bloody meatbag and none of you apparently wants that cause I can't think of any other reason to nerf noxious breath out of all abilities in the game.)

So I ask again, with respect, why should I actually bother giving feedback to you or any other class rep really?