my take on DLC dungeons

DocFrost72 · August 2018

Most of the DLC dungeons are fine, but the new wolf hunter ones are nasty on normal. For example, my "meta" dk tank runs plague, Torug, and bloodspawn. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm operating on the assumption that bloodspawn was not active (I think it was not).

I was one shot by one of the hulking werewolves (not a boss) in the keep. The strike itself was for 47.2k damage. I was blocking, maim was up, and my resistances were no lower than 26k.

Let's do some math.

47k ÷ .5 (block reduction- it's actually more because dk but this is for fun) ÷ .85 (maim) ÷ .6 (resistances) ÷ .81 (direct damage cps) ÷ 89 (hardy cp)

The grand total comes out to 255,671.7 (rounded).

A trash mob in a normal dungeon struck a player for an unmitigated 250k damage. That's absurd, sorry. I cannot defend that. For emphasis, the boss tier Dro'mothra (sp?) In nMoL hit for far less. A freaking trial.

There are absolutely some things that could use a comb over in the new normals.

phaneub17_ESO · August 2018

My reasoning for staying OFF ESO+ even though I love the craft bag, I intentionally stay off it so I don't have to do DLC dungeons when I go random norm/vet. I'm willing to buy DLCs separately targeting those that don't have bonus dungeons. When the ESO trial comes around or I do sub for ESO+ I just stay away from dungeons until it expires, I may jump into specific ones during that time instead of doing random.

Apherius · August 2018

Let's nerf the normal mode, then people will complain about the Vet mode being way too hard because " it should not be 300% harder than normal mode /makeitfacerolleasy "

mague · August 2018

Last time i queued for normal as healer they didnt need a healer. To much dps. Either its fast and boring or to difficult. It would be nice if there was a difficulty like the craglorn delves. Doable solo, nice as duo or with three.

But then, i dont want to change the game. I just would like to read and play the quests without feeling underchallenged.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2018

Apherius wrote: »

Let's nerf the normal mode, then people will complain about the Vet mode being way too hard because " it should not be 300% harder than normal mode /makeitfacerolleasy "

I'd protest that. I'll absolutely take a nerfed normal mode because as outlined above, it's ridiculous, but I'll support any attempt to keep Vet hard.

code65536 · August 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Most of the DLC dungeons are fine, but the new wolf hunter ones are nasty on normal. For example, my "meta" dk tank runs plague, Torug, and bloodspawn. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm operating on the assumption that bloodspawn was not active (I think it was not).

I was one shot by one of the hulking werewolves (not a boss) in the keep. The strike itself was for 47.2k damage. I was blocking, maim was up, and my resistances were no lower than 26k.

Let's do some math.

47k ÷ .5 (block reduction- it's actually more because dk but this is for fun) ÷ .85 (maim) ÷ .6 (resistances) ÷ .81 (direct damage cps) ÷ 89 (hardy cp)

The grand total comes out to 255,671.7 (rounded).

A trash mob in a normal dungeon struck a player for an unmitigated 250k damage. That's absurd, sorry. I cannot defend that. For emphasis, the boss tier Dro'mothra (sp?) In nMoL hit for far less. A freaking trial.

There are absolutely some things that could use a comb over in the new normals.

That could just be a bug. There was a bug some years ago when the damage in normal was higher than in vet. Or something like that.

FWIW, our tank never died to the Hulking Werewolves in vet. So I'm inclined to think that normal hitting harder than vet is probably not intended.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2018

code65536 wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Most of the DLC dungeons are fine, but the new wolf hunter ones are nasty on normal. For example, my "meta" dk tank runs plague, Torug, and bloodspawn. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm operating on the assumption that bloodspawn was not active (I think it was not).

I was one shot by one of the hulking werewolves (not a boss) in the keep. The strike itself was for 47.2k damage. I was blocking, maim was up, and my resistances were no lower than 26k.

Let's do some math.

47k ÷ .5 (block reduction- it's actually more because dk but this is for fun) ÷ .85 (maim) ÷ .6 (resistances) ÷ .81 (direct damage cps) ÷ 89 (hardy cp)

The grand total comes out to 255,671.7 (rounded).

A trash mob in a normal dungeon struck a player for an unmitigated 250k damage. That's absurd, sorry. I cannot defend that. For emphasis, the boss tier Dro'mothra (sp?) In nMoL hit for far less. A freaking trial.

There are absolutely some things that could use a comb over in the new normals.

That could just be a bug. There was a bug some years ago when the damage in normal was higher than in vet. Or something like that.

FWIW, our tank never died to the Hulking Werewolves in vet. So I'm inclined to think that normal hitting harder than vet is probably not intended.

If that's true, I'll laugh my butt off if people are in here defending glitched damage calculations. But it'd explain alot, actually.

Like the same thing is happening as you pointed out with the last boss of march of sacrifices.

Kolache · August 2018

I think a difficulty/reward slider is desperately needed for lots of content but especially DLC content. Hell I think they should make slightly less spectacular monster helms for normal mode (kinda like normal AS weapons).

Do I think normal DLC dungeons are too difficult? Nope... but what does it matter? Someone else does and this is a problem that should be relatively easy to fix. I'm not selfless though--the real reason I want the difficulty slider is because I'm tired of quest/open world content coming with DLCs that I waltz through aoe'ing everything down in seconds without a care in the world.

This game has difficulty gaps that desperately need to be addressed.

Qbiken · August 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

Let's nerf the normal mode, then people will complain about the Vet mode being way too hard because " it should not be 300% harder than normal mode /makeitfacerolleasy "

I'd protest that. I'll absolutely take a nerfed normal mode because as outlined above, it's ridiculous, but I'll support any attempt to keep Vet hard.

The difference between normal and veteran in the DLC dungeons is already immense enough. Making them even further away from each other will make the transition even more horrible. That´s one of the reasons the transition from normal maelstrom to vet is such a horrible experience if you do it for the first time.

The reason the new dungeons feel difficult even on normal is quite simple:

They´re new.

It was the same case when the DLC dungeons was released with HotR and Dragon Bones. 1-2 patches later they´re easier and not the pain they were at start. It all comes down to experience really (even on normal). And most likely we´ll think Moonhunter Keep and Marches of Sacrifice is easy in 1-2 patches as well (unless you completely avoid them for the sake of avoiding them).

Doctordarkspawn · August 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

Let's nerf the normal mode, then people will complain about the Vet mode being way too hard because " it should not be 300% harder than normal mode /makeitfacerolleasy "

I'd protest that. I'll absolutely take a nerfed normal mode because as outlined above, it's ridiculous, but I'll support any attempt to keep Vet hard.

The difference between normal and veteran in the DLC dungeons is already immense enough. Making them even further away from each other will make the transition even more horrible. That´s one of the reasons the transition from normal maelstrom to vet is such a horrible experience if you do it for the first time.

The reason the new dungeons feel difficult even on normal is quite simple:

They´re new.

It was the same case when the DLC dungeons was released with HotR and Dragon Bones. 1-2 patches later they´re easier and not the pain they were at start. It all comes down to experience really (even on normal). And most likely we´ll think Moonhunter Keep and Marches of Sacrifice is easy in 1-2 patches as well (unless you completely avoid them for the sake of avoiding them).

Just got done debating someone with the exact same position, so I suggest you go look through that to any questions you might have.

If you're too lazy, this is all your geting: I've beaten them both on normal and I know the mechanics. And they still do more damage with their oneshots then Maw does on normal. There might be some damage scaling buggery going on. And if there is, I will laugh at all you people blindly defending it.

Casdha · August 2018

I still say I like the group dungeons better when they were leveled. At least then you could out level them to make them easier. Sure you didn't get credit if you did them if you were several levels above the dungeon, but it made the story content available to everyone eventually.

Rather than Normal, Veteran, and Veteran (Hard Mode) I'd like to see Normal replaced with choose your level from 10 all the way to CP 780 (or what ever Max is at the time). Anyone could solo a level 10 dungeon for story if they were CP level and chose to play a level 10 version.

Qbiken · August 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

Let's nerf the normal mode, then people will complain about the Vet mode being way too hard because " it should not be 300% harder than normal mode /makeitfacerolleasy "

I'd protest that. I'll absolutely take a nerfed normal mode because as outlined above, it's ridiculous, but I'll support any attempt to keep Vet hard.

The difference between normal and veteran in the DLC dungeons is already immense enough. Making them even further away from each other will make the transition even more horrible. That´s one of the reasons the transition from normal maelstrom to vet is such a horrible experience if you do it for the first time.

The reason the new dungeons feel difficult even on normal is quite simple:

They´re new.

It was the same case when the DLC dungeons was released with HotR and Dragon Bones. 1-2 patches later they´re easier and not the pain they were at start. It all comes down to experience really (even on normal). And most likely we´ll think Moonhunter Keep and Marches of Sacrifice is easy in 1-2 patches as well (unless you completely avoid them for the sake of avoiding them).

Just got done debating someone with the exact same position, so I suggest you go look through that to any questions you might have.

If you're too lazy, this is all your geting: I've beaten them both on normal and I know the mechanics. And they still do more damage with their oneshots then Maw does on normal. There might be some damage scaling buggery going on. And if there is, I will laugh at all you people blindly defending it.

I'm not defending the one-shotting dogs in moonhunter keep. I even reported it as a bug when doing it on the PTS.

But laugh all you want if that makes you feel better I guess....

DarcyMardin · August 2018

Why there is not a separate queue for the DLC dungeons (both normal and vet) is something I don’t understand. The difference in difficulty between base game dungeons and DLCs is huge.

Actually, I *do* understand it — so many people avoid the DLC dungeons if they can that the folks who enter a queue for those dungeons exclusively would probably have to wait all evening to get a group. Maybe that’s one good reason why there should be more levels of difficulty for DLC dungeons, specifically. 1. Nerfed Mode, 2. Normal Mode, Vet Mode, and Elites Only Mode.

idk · August 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

There isn't a single normal mode dungeon, DLC or otherwise, that requires much thought or skills.

If you can't be bothered to learn the very, VERY simple mechanics these dungeons have, then that's an issue with the player, not the content.

I point to the Archivist of Moon Hunter Keep.

He has a enrage circle around him that causes any werewolves in that circle to enrage and deal oneshot damage.

And I have never seen it once. It's not simple mechanics if it's hard to see, and that's just hard to see. Apparently it's like a teeny tiny red outline and I've never seen it once, so sod off with that. Some of these are genuinelty dumb.

And yet you know of its existence?

Did you see the adds turn red (enraged)? Did you try tanking the adds elsewhere?

Every new content has things to figure out. Pre-guide, these are figured out by trial and error, a simple matter of "That didn't work, let's try something differernt."

Now if you have a visual bug, that's a whole different story, one completely unrelated to difficulty of the dungeon.

The simplest tells, if unable to be seen are going to pose as difficult.

IMO, they did a fairly good job of letting you know what you need to do. The Khajiit NPC is barking out suggestions for the entire duration of the Hedge Maze fight, giving you initial suggestions, then more dire recommendations if you ignore/miss the first ones. Death recap tooltips also give some insight, the dungeon/boss specific ones, not the generic use a CC / craft a potion ones, that is.

I don't recall if she does the same for the Archivist. Personally, I've never had issue seeing the circle around the boss. Didn't necessarily know what it did at first, but knew it was there for some reason.

Only after being explicitly being told that was what was happening.

The enrage-mechanic could be litterally anything. The flesh golems on imperial city prison originally enraged if left alive too long. And I assumed, you're only recourse was to immediately burst them down. It was only after raising concerns on the forum that someone told me what was happening, and it had made sense.

And no, I didn't try tanking them elsewhere. The one group I encountered it on broke up after the first few attempts running into the problem and subsequent groups either didn't get that far, or were DPS machines murdering anything and everything they came into contact with. (And as for the first end of the spectrum, I've met one group that simply didn't get farther then the first boss because they were that bad. Those are the people that make the nerf necessary.)

So please, stop with the condescension. It was a crappily communicated mechanic especially when juxtoposed with other bossfights which give you clear audio queues. Like the lurcher.

And which part is the condescension?

Not every intended method is clear on every piece of content, I will absolutely give you that.

Figuring it out, sometimes by complete accident, sometimes by trying different methods until something clicks or seems to make sense works.

Some people, myself included, purposely go into new content blind, with the full intention of figuring out the puzzle, so to speak. Announce your intent at the beginning, and most groups are willing to accommodate.

I've purposely requested wipes before because I wanted to test something out.

Because your first group didn't care to take the time to let that happen, and your second had high enough DPS it didn't need to are neither one, failures of the game.

Again, its week one.

So what it really seems like is this:

You want the content to be difficult so it caters to you so you can figure it out like a puzzle.

I'd just like something fun to run.

Are you any less entitled then I am, by that logic? And that's about as far as I'm willing to entertain this thought experriment, because it seems like you're not here to adress any of the criticism and do nothing more then spread your git gud culture. Well I'm not converting, because it demands I come into threads and other dicussions like this and demands I berate people until they submit to 'enlightenment'.

Pass.

By your logic we all win.

The normal version if something fun to run and the vet version offers a challenge to be figured out and conquered.

That what is great about what Zos has down the past few years. It is pretty simple. What is also nice is Zos has recognized risk vs reward as well.

Merlin13KAGL · August 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

There isn't a single normal mode dungeon, DLC or otherwise, that requires much thought or skills.

If you can't be bothered to learn the very, VERY simple mechanics these dungeons have, then that's an issue with the player, not the content.

I point to the Archivist of Moon Hunter Keep.

He has a enrage circle around him that causes any werewolves in that circle to enrage and deal oneshot damage.

And I have never seen it once. It's not simple mechanics if it's hard to see, and that's just hard to see. Apparently it's like a teeny tiny red outline and I've never seen it once, so sod off with that. Some of these are genuinelty dumb.

And yet you know of its existence?

Did you see the adds turn red (enraged)? Did you try tanking the adds elsewhere?

Every new content has things to figure out. Pre-guide, these are figured out by trial and error, a simple matter of "That didn't work, let's try something differernt."

Now if you have a visual bug, that's a whole different story, one completely unrelated to difficulty of the dungeon.

The simplest tells, if unable to be seen are going to pose as difficult.

IMO, they did a fairly good job of letting you know what you need to do. The Khajiit NPC is barking out suggestions for the entire duration of the Hedge Maze fight, giving you initial suggestions, then more dire recommendations if you ignore/miss the first ones. Death recap tooltips also give some insight, the dungeon/boss specific ones, not the generic use a CC / craft a potion ones, that is.

I don't recall if she does the same for the Archivist. Personally, I've never had issue seeing the circle around the boss. Didn't necessarily know what it did at first, but knew it was there for some reason.

Only after being explicitly being told that was what was happening.

The enrage-mechanic could be litterally anything. The flesh golems on imperial city prison originally enraged if left alive too long. And I assumed, you're only recourse was to immediately burst them down. It was only after raising concerns on the forum that someone told me what was happening, and it had made sense.

And no, I didn't try tanking them elsewhere. The one group I encountered it on broke up after the first few attempts running into the problem and subsequent groups either didn't get that far, or were DPS machines murdering anything and everything they came into contact with. (And as for the first end of the spectrum, I've met one group that simply didn't get farther then the first boss because they were that bad. Those are the people that make the nerf necessary.)

So please, stop with the condescension. It was a crappily communicated mechanic especially when juxtoposed with other bossfights which give you clear audio queues. Like the lurcher.

And which part is the condescension?

Not every intended method is clear on every piece of content, I will absolutely give you that.

Figuring it out, sometimes by complete accident, sometimes by trying different methods until something clicks or seems to make sense works.

Some people, myself included, purposely go into new content blind, with the full intention of figuring out the puzzle, so to speak. Announce your intent at the beginning, and most groups are willing to accommodate.

I've purposely requested wipes before because I wanted to test something out.

Because your first group didn't care to take the time to let that happen, and your second had high enough DPS it didn't need to are neither one, failures of the game.

Again, its week one.

So what it really seems like is this:

You want the content to be difficult so it caters to you so you can figure it out like a puzzle.

I'd just like something fun to run.

Are you any less entitled then I am, by that logic? And that's about as far as I'm willing to entertain this thought experriment, because it seems like you're not here to adress any of the criticism and do nothing more then spread your git gud culture. Well I'm not converting, because it demands I come into threads and other dicussions like this and demands I berate people until they submit to 'enlightenment'.

Pass.

See, thing is, the current setup already provides both for each of us. I don't, for one minute, believe you incapable of clearing the content, especially if you made it as far as the Archivist. (You're already beaten the most difficult bosses in the dungeon.)

Again, no one's being berated, just expected to take the time necessary and do what is necessary to have their desired outcome.

It's not broken. It doesn't need fixed.

Clearly it doesn't. If casuals that I see running it cant make it past the first boss of moon-hunter keep.

And I'm not incapable of clearing the content, what is with you're presumptions? I've competed both dungeons on normal. But will never attempt them on vet because I hate tryhard design and everything that comes with it. I hate it. I play this game to have fun. Suffering so you can have your puzzle isn't fun. Stop trying to justify me being a martyr, it wont *** work.

I beat both these dungeons and I still stand by this complaint. You're misconceptions speak more about you then my position does about me. I have beat these dungeons and I still think they need nerfed. I defy you.

And no, you're not berating me, you're just being a presumtive condescending (insert expletive here).

You might want to lay off the caffeine.
If you go back and actually read what I wrote, you will see I've not once implied you being incapable of clearing the content. In fact, I assured you could.

I don't, for one minute, believe you incapable of clearing the content, especially if you made it as far as the Archivist.

You can lose the 'puzzle' attempted counterargument. I get that regardless, because I opt to figure it out vs look at a guide. (And I'm not arguing for or against this part, each to their own.) Difficulty, one way or the other, will not change that.

You're in a nerf thread the first week of release, after having cleared the content. I don't think there's much to be misconceived here.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Most of the DLC dungeons are fine, but the new wolf hunter ones are nasty on normal. For example, my "meta" dk tank runs plague, Torug, and bloodspawn. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm operating on the assumption that bloodspawn was not active (I think it was not).

I was one shot by one of the hulking werewolves (not a boss) in the keep. The strike itself was for 47.2k damage. I was blocking, maim was up, and my resistances were no lower than 26k.

Let's do some math.

47k ÷ .5 (block reduction- it's actually more because dk but this is for fun) ÷ .85 (maim) ÷ .6 (resistances) ÷ .81 (direct damage cps) ÷ 89 (hardy cp)

The grand total comes out to 255,671.7 (rounded).

A trash mob in a normal dungeon struck a player for an unmitigated 250k damage. That's absurd, sorry. I cannot defend that. For emphasis, the boss tier Dro'mothra (sp?) In nMoL hit for far less. A freaking trial.

There are absolutely some things that could use a comb over in the new normals.

There are some overtuned adds in these, no doubt. Whether it's a bug or poor design choice remains to be seen (and hopefully fixed, in either case.)

Those things definitely need to get addressed. Once those things are addressed, the rest of it falls in line with a Normal DLC level dungeon.

Guppet · August 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Why are you buying content you purposely avoid?

If you're counting ESO+ in the mix, you're not buying, you're leasing.

Why should even normal be expected to hand itself over to you? It's group content, it's already expected that it's going to be a step harder than base game, yet it's nothing that can't be bypassed by a semi-competent group.

And regarding solo options, it's group content. If any of a handful of reasons prevent you from choosing to group up successfully, then I defer to my initial statement. Why are you buying content you anticipate not playing?

Not every content has to cater to ever type of player, but there should be some content for every type of player, which there is.

Here's the thing:

Nerfing the normal mode doesn't make it less hard on the vet mode.

We cant control when we go into these dungeons if we queue for random normal.

And leased or not, the only way to prevent myself from having the chance to suffer through them (Mostly just the wolf-hunter ones, the others are allright on normal) is to cancel my sub and wait for it to run out.

This is not a reasonable position. Nerf normal, leave vet untouched. You missed the point by a country mile, attempt indoctrination of new subjects somewhere else.

So ask for a way to exclude DLC dungeons from the RDF, or exit group if that's one you get. You're right, it's not a reasonable position. You're automatically assuming the majority want it simplified further. You're assuming yours is the common opinion.

In your defense, I hadn't added this part yet:

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Is it fair to take their challenge away to accommodate an easier clear for someone else? It's not unreasonable for someone to learn their class and learn the mechanics.

If you want a method to base game only RDF, then request it in feedback. If you want more than just 3 tiers of difficulty, request it in feedback.

Don't assume because new content doesn't give itself up to you during week one that the majority that run even normal want it simplified.

There are more skill levels of player than just Norm, Vet, and HM. You're providing the exact same argument on the opposite end of the scale "If you don't want an easy Norm, then go to Vet or get out."

Again, what of those out there that are not ready for Vet, but don't want norm handed to them?

Norm on dlc is the same difficulty as non dlc vet, so that content exists at that level of difficulty for those players. Making dlc norms easier does not remove all content at that difficulty level.

So, you're not allowed to have a challenge below level 50, got it?

Because someone below level 50 doesn't have the option to do non dlc vet.

And if you're going to argue that it's not that hard to get to level 50, I'm going to counterargue that it's not that hard to learn the new mechanics of a dungeon, synergize with your group, and get a clear if you're reasonably built and familiar with your class.

The new dungeons require:
A little bit of DPS

An actual tank (yep, one that can take some hits, even on Norm)

Situational awareness of all players

Group cooperation (interrupts and synergies)

These things are all within the realm of any reasonable player, norm or otherwise. They are not going to be impassible for the majority of normal players, given enough time and practice.

Your suggesting they should be left as is so people key below level 50 have challenging content? That’s your argument?

How disconnected from reality are you?

Challenging content of that nature is for end game only, Always was.

Tell me how a pug of dlc goes with a group under 50.

That sir deserves comedy if the year award.

It went smashingly, just yesterday. Once everyone heard what to do and did it, there were no issues at all.

End game content being the only required challenge would leave a pretty big gap in this game. Your insistence that the majority game is obligated to be casual friendly (it already is) is absurd.

Why not pay your crowns, buy the trophy in the Crown Store, and skip the content entirely?

Again, not everyone wants it handed to them, especially not more than it already is.

This is coming from pre-1T, pre-CP, non-scaled, zone leveled, it's-ok-it-something-actually-hands-you-your-ass, from before Day 1 gameplay.

It's not an achievement if there's nothing to achieve.

I’d agree that not all content should be easy if it weren’t for the fact this content also comes in vet and then hardmode. This is supposed to be it’s easy setting, you know so people that don’t want challenge can see it.

You want challenge do it on vet. Why do you want to deny the content to others?

karekiz · August 2018

These dungeons are MUCH easier than dragonbones content.

They already have toned it down.

Merlin13KAGL · August 2018

@Guppet there needs to be more than three difficulty options, period.

I do run them on Vet. Even before I was Vet, I still wanted a challenge, and that is every bit as reasonable a request as the opposing viewpoint.

Back when dungeons were zone scaled, there were options to pursue the next tier prior to being at that tier's level. Since they introduced 1T Scale everything, that's no longer an option.

I'm not trying to deny content to anyone. There should be appropriate content for all skill and character levels.

That includes an easier version if that's what someone is after. That includes a more challenging version, even if someone is not yet level 50, and thus does not have access to the Vet versions.

Other than ZoS stubbornness, there is no reason why both of these cannot coexist alongside each other.

There are groups that don't want it harder. There are groups that don't want it easier. There should be method to accommodate both.

noob in denial · August 2018

I have completed both dungeons in veteran mode with PUGS only at ~460CP. In some of them i've wiped for many hours. However, this doesn't make me feel more entitled and i believe normal mode dlc dungeons should be doable by the average players who don't weave between attacks, but still follow the main mechanics of that specific boss. This being said, i also do not believe they should be dumbed down to extreme and transform bosses in target dummies.

So i believe the best compromise is to implement an option in the random dungeon tool to excluse ALL dlc dungeons. The other compromise would be to dumb down these dlc dungeons in normal mode and transform the bosses into target dummies. Sure, very casual people would be happy about it but then it'd get bored extremely fast, so it would only be a loss in medium to long term.

Mureel · August 2018

ayu_fever wrote: »

dlc dungeons are paid content, and ZOS wants players to get their moneys worth out of them so they are going to be difficult dungeons. they ALWAYS are. theres not really anything wrong with that, excpet for normal mode. it HAS TO be nerfed.

by design, the dlc dungeons are very well made. kudos to ZOS!
they are made for hardcore groups and they leave behind the solo players like me.
i dread dlc dungeon releases, because it is content i have PAID FOR and either i cant enjoy it or cant complete it.
I BOUGHT IT, AND I EXPECT CUSTOMER SATISFACTION!

because of this, i just avoid all dlc dungeons like the plague.
i played WGT enough to get 5 pieces of spc and didnt care about the trait, i just rerolled them. that was the most painful struggle i have ever experienced in this game! i still have nightmares of the planar inhibitor!
all other dlc dungeons i complete on NORMAL just once to get the skill point, and even this is very stressful to do, and then NOPE NEVER GOING IN THERE AGAIN!!!

(this rant is about NORMAL MODE only. you have been warned.)

i dont expcet paid dlc dungeons to be as easy as fungal grotto 1.
we all would be disappointed and angry if that were the case (but at least there would be more players doing the daily random!).
dlc dungeons are designed for groups, guilds and hardcore players, not for solo players and PUGs.

my issue with dlc dungeons is even on normal mode they are just too much to deal with.
they are just way too hard!

there is no group communication (myself personally i refuse to voice chat with random punk kids who constantly use racial slurs, “build-shame,” hit a vape, have 2012’s finest dubstep music in the background all while getting yelled at by their mom/wife/GF with a baby crying and 37 dogs barking), which means mechanics are more than an obstacle.
they are a WALL.

boss health is too high,
mechanics one shot,
dps race not possible from all the level 28 bow light attackers,

i dont do the random daily dungeon for fear of getting a dlc dungeon (majority of players feel this way as well, so this is a problem ZOS!)
normal mode should be brought down to be in line with base game dungeon difficulty.
AGAIN, THIS IS FOR NORMAL MODE ONLY! THE TRYHARDS AND HARDCORES HAVE THEIR YARD IN VETERAN MODE. LET US HAVE OURS IN NORMAL!!!

it is NOT as easy as “make friends, join a guild, git gud” because theres a thousand reasons why those concepts are not the solution: social anxiety, build shaming, punk kids being punk kids, elitism, getting kicked, etc

however... veteran mode and reading the scroll should stay the same as it is now.
hardcore groups and min/maxers dont play normal anyway so this change doesnt affect them.
they get to keep on keepin on.

i dont play games to be stressed out. i want to cruise on through and not think about it too much, and i think normal mode should be brought down several notches by the nerf hammer to make this content WE PAID FOR more accessible and playable by the majority of the players.

To be totally honest: Everything in the original post explains why you can't have a good time. It's down to all the things you point blank refuse to do.

You're really kinda handicapping yourself by refusing to communicate in coms, refusing to work together a team to learn what works.

These are meant to be a challenge- both Vet and Normal, to their perspective players.

Normal are already a breeze really.

There are nice guides here that you can read to see what to do and expect, for the latest ones and alcast has guides for all.

You could avail yourself of the resources available and you would have a much better time.

The original post up there doesn't really do anything to help you, it's basically a rant, really.

Read some guides and be open to playing with people and you'll have more fun.

Wishing you the best.

Darkenarlol · August 2018

if you r so bad that even NORMAL mode was too hard - this content is simply not for you (you know... gitgud/l2p or pass by)

i'm so glad that we had 2 dungeons pack this year - 4ppl is exactly what i love to do

so if it comes with cosmetics ( for vet achieves) it makes my day... or days (lol depends on party)

btw what do you asking for? you want normal mode to be nerfed to level it can be cleared by blind paralitic lobotomized

monkey light attacking once per minute? how about no?

Kuramas9tails · August 2018

I can see your point and the point of others.

First off, I consider myself a casual player. I would be lucky if my Mageblade DPS hits over 30K DPS on a test dummy (w/o debuffing it) but with that said, I have beat all the DLC dungeons on Vet. Hardmode is a different story. The other DPS is probably the same as me and the healer is heal/dps. But my boyfriend and I can two man the DLC dungeons on normal and that's how we have farmed for motifs too.

We can't really help you though if you don't share your build too. Maybe if you build to be more self reliant in a dungeon instead of group oriented, you can pass normal with one other strong DPS who can also solo manage. Just a thought. I don't know your build so I can't help. Maybe even share your rotation to see if someone else can help see where you can animation cancel an extra skill somewhere for extra damage?

But....some people don't like build advice and never grow to be better DPS which is sad.

DaveMoeDee · August 2018

The current normal mode needs to continue to exist. If they make an additional easy mode that doesn't give a skill point or set pieces, that would also be fine. It would essentially just be a quest completion mode so people can experience the dungeon. Many really bad players might be able to build up enough familiarity and comfort with those dungeons to even give Normal a go.

For many of the DLC dungeons, the jump from Normal to Vet is significant enough that nerfing Normal would mean either a really boring normal run for the average PUG like with base game dungeons (which are typically not even challenging at vet for the PUGs I join) or not clearing vet.

I like the current approach. If people want to clear content, they need to get better. While I acknowledge some people might not have the dexterity or reaction time to ever become good enough to clear certain content, they shouldn't lower the floor on everything to make it doable by every single player without significant penalties.

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO · August 2018

DLC dungeons don't need a nerf. They're meant to be challenging. If you aren't capable of completing them, keep working on your build until you are. Buying a game doesn't entitle you to all the end-game rewards with no work.

And if you find that they're just too hard no matter what you try, stop buying them. But veteran players need a challenge, many people have completed all the base game (read, "easier") dungeons hundreds and hundreds of times and can complete them in their sleep. Those players don't deserve to be punished/bored to death because you can't be bothered to learn to play.

It would be like if you bought Dark Souls and said "this game is too hard, make it easier, I paid for it gosh darn it!"
Which is obviously ridiculous.

profundidob16_ESO · August 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Most of the DLC dungeons are fine, but the new wolf hunter ones are nasty on normal. For example, my "meta" dk tank runs plague, Torug, and bloodspawn. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm operating on the assumption that bloodspawn was not active (I think it was not).

I was one shot by one of the hulking werewolves (not a boss) in the keep. The strike itself was for 47.2k damage. I was blocking, maim was up, and my resistances were no lower than 26k.

Let's do some math.

47k ÷ .5 (block reduction- it's actually more because dk but this is for fun) ÷ .85 (maim) ÷ .6 (resistances) ÷ .81 (direct damage cps) ÷ 89 (hardy cp)

The grand total comes out to 255,671.7 (rounded).

A trash mob in a normal dungeon struck a player for an unmitigated 250k damage. That's absurd, sorry. I cannot defend that. For emphasis, the boss tier Dro'mothra (sp?) In nMoL hit for far less. A freaking trial.

There are absolutely some things that could use a comb over in the new normals.

Ah this sort of stuff I recognise: 47K is the dmge when it is considered unblocked by the server. When you as tank to your best knowledge truly believe you had pressed block the cause of the unblocked damage is usually one of these:

1. Since the server and not client calculates the mechanics, a bit of lag is all it takes for the server to consider you as "having blocked too late" even though on your side everything looked ok. Happens most when the dungeon is the daily pledge since then that particular instance (read: server) is overloaded. Most annoying in vSP when not only you are considered blocking too late but also moving too late out of red cone areas even though on your screen everything's looking fine..
2. The Hulking mob raises his paws indicating that a killing blow is coming and you're absolutely ready for it as tank standing there in full block mode but -totally invisible- a few milliseconds right before that final blow lands some other mob behind you launches a cc on you (werewolf crying scream, plant strangling you, spriggan turning you into a rat) and before the animation of that cc shows on your screen you are dead since the cc had removed your block mode right as the damage from the hulking werewolf heavy attack came in.
3. You were so fascinated by the Hulking werewolf's paws you never noticed that you in fact had no stamina left right before the final blow...

Drdeath20 · August 2018

I think the normal versions of dlc dungeons are perfect. They are hard enough where you actually have to pay attention to mechanics but easy enough that the fights can be done with just about any level group. Any easier and any learning to play is thrown out the window.

Non dlc normal dungeons are part of the problem. Very weak new players learn nothing from them and never progress because these dungeons are soo easy that almost all mechanics are thrown out the window by almost every group. This creates a problem because these players continue to level and at some point i join a vet pug group with CP level 400 characters that dont have the slightest idea how to play the game.

DanteYoda · August 2018

I would run dungeons if they were easier and the loot justified the time wasted to do them.

Mureel · August 2018

Another thing comes to mind looking at this: The rest of the base game has been nerfed so thoroughly, that levelling up to end game no longer teaches people to play properly or even offers any sort of challenge.

If you don't know what I mean when I mention Doshia, Gutsripper, Doppelgänger and OMG then you came after everything was set to EZ Mode in the base game.

Now you have CP, choices of gear etc., and massive base game-wide super nerfs, people levelling the first time go from cake walk to finding things pretty hard almost instantly.

The base game is likely the issue in that it's far too easy to solo everything - so people just don't learn to mind their feet, to block or roll dodge and so going into a DLC Normal might be pretty daunting! (Ha!)

Because almost everything is so much easier now, once you hit 50 and go to DLC normals, it's a whole new world.

Perhaps the base game shouldn't have been so nerfed all across the place, and instead have incremental difficulty as it had before, so that you're presented with incrementally more difficult content/mechanics as you progress.

Just a thought....

DocFrost72 · August 2018

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Most of the DLC dungeons are fine, but the new wolf hunter ones are nasty on normal. For example, my "meta" dk tank runs plague, Torug, and bloodspawn. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm operating on the assumption that bloodspawn was not active (I think it was not).

I was one shot by one of the hulking werewolves (not a boss) in the keep. The strike itself was for 47.2k damage. I was blocking, maim was up, and my resistances were no lower than 26k.

Let's do some math.

47k ÷ .5 (block reduction- it's actually more because dk but this is for fun) ÷ .85 (maim) ÷ .6 (resistances) ÷ .81 (direct damage cps) ÷ 89 (hardy cp)

The grand total comes out to 255,671.7 (rounded).

A trash mob in a normal dungeon struck a player for an unmitigated 250k damage. That's absurd, sorry. I cannot defend that. For emphasis, the boss tier Dro'mothra (sp?) In nMoL hit for far less. A freaking trial.

There are absolutely some things that could use a comb over in the new normals.

Ah this sort of stuff I recognise: 47K is the dmge when it is considered unblocked by the server. When you as tank to your best knowledge truly believe you had pressed block the cause of the unblocked damage is usually one of these:

1. Since the server and not client calculates the mechanics, a bit of lag is all it takes for the server to consider you as "having blocked too late" even though on your side everything looked ok. Happens most when the dungeon is the daily pledge since then that particular instance (read: server) is overloaded. Most annoying in vSP when not only you are considered blocking too late but also moving too late out of red cone areas even though on your screen everything's looking fine..
2. The Hulking mob raises his paws indicating that a killing blow is coming and you're absolutely ready for it as tank standing there in full block mode but -totally invisible- a few milliseconds right before that final blow lands some other mob behind you launches a cc on you (werewolf crying scream, plant strangling you, spriggan turning you into a rat) and before the animation of that cc shows on your screen you are dead since the cc had removed your block mode right as the damage from the hulking werewolf heavy attack came in.
3. You were so fascinated by the Hulking werewolf's paws you never noticed that you in fact had no stamina left right before the final blow...

I had stamina (management on a dk is a joke).

There were no mobs capable of CC at that time (it was the mage boss and his pink bubble had just fired). This was not in the garden. Are there hulkings in the garden? I don't remember, only ran this dungeon the once.

I had been holding block for maybe ten seconds. I know about the timer being irritating.

What may have happened is the mob went through the boss' red aoe (that one that enrages that I have no control over) and immediately upon getting up to me, one shotted me. I was struck for 47k through block.

The above is fact. The below is opinion.

No non boss mob in normal should one shot a properly built, blocking tank. Ever. No mechanic that cannot be controlled (where a mob spawns) should allow a one shot. The purest irony is the fight before this with the werewolf that pounces, then one shots a few seconds later I LOVED. It made group play important, but if you were paying attention you could save your team. This is absolutely not something I can defend.

Merlin13KAGL · August 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Most of the DLC dungeons are fine, but the new wolf hunter ones are nasty on normal. For example, my "meta" dk tank runs plague, Torug, and bloodspawn. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm operating on the assumption that bloodspawn was not active (I think it was not).

I was one shot by one of the hulking werewolves (not a boss) in the keep. The strike itself was for 47.2k damage. I was blocking, maim was up, and my resistances were no lower than 26k.

Let's do some math.

47k ÷ .5 (block reduction- it's actually more because dk but this is for fun) ÷ .85 (maim) ÷ .6 (resistances) ÷ .81 (direct damage cps) ÷ 89 (hardy cp)

The grand total comes out to 255,671.7 (rounded).

A trash mob in a normal dungeon struck a player for an unmitigated 250k damage. That's absurd, sorry. I cannot defend that. For emphasis, the boss tier Dro'mothra (sp?) In nMoL hit for far less. A freaking trial.

There are absolutely some things that could use a comb over in the new normals.

Ah this sort of stuff I recognise: 47K is the dmge when it is considered unblocked by the server. When you as tank to your best knowledge truly believe you had pressed block the cause of the unblocked damage is usually one of these:

1. Since the server and not client calculates the mechanics, a bit of lag is all it takes for the server to consider you as "having blocked too late" even though on your side everything looked ok. Happens most when the dungeon is the daily pledge since then that particular instance (read: server) is overloaded. Most annoying in vSP when not only you are considered blocking too late but also moving too late out of red cone areas even though on your screen everything's looking fine..
2. The Hulking mob raises his paws indicating that a killing blow is coming and you're absolutely ready for it as tank standing there in full block mode but -totally invisible- a few milliseconds right before that final blow lands some other mob behind you launches a cc on you (werewolf crying scream, plant strangling you, spriggan turning you into a rat) and before the animation of that cc shows on your screen you are dead since the cc had removed your block mode right as the damage from the hulking werewolf heavy attack came in.
3. You were so fascinated by the Hulking werewolf's paws you never noticed that you in fact had no stamina left right before the final blow...

I had stamina (management on a dk is a joke).

There were no mobs capable of CC at that time (it was the mage boss and his pink bubble had just fired). This was not in the garden. Are there hulkings in the garden? I don't remember, only ran this dungeon the once.

I had been holding block for maybe ten seconds. I know about the timer being irritating.

What may have happened is the mob went through the boss' red aoe (that one that enrages that I have no control over) and immediately upon getting up to me, one shotted me. I was struck for 47k through block.

The above is fact. The below is opinion.

No non boss mob in normal should one shot a properly built, blocking tank. Ever. No mechanic that cannot be controlled (where a mob spawns) should allow a one shot. The purest irony is the fight before this with the werewolf that pounces, then one shots a few seconds later I LOVED. It made group play important, but if you were paying attention you could save your team. This is absolutely not something I can defend.

@DocFrost72 if you range taunt them while they're on the stairs, they'll not step foot in the enrage circle. Obviously you have to be back from the main boss, as well. (If you're bubbled, or something, you may not always have this option.)

The Alpha WW's attack is more reasonable, at least, in that you have a few seconds to counter it. It's not an automatic one-and-done like some of the trash mobs currently in there. The timing vs some of the tells do seem a bit strict at the moment.

Yet you have other, sometimes boss level mechanics you would expect to one-shot you that do not (Lurcher thorns, for instance.)