What is P2W (pay to win)
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Mattock_Romulus✭✭✭✭✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Isnt it paying to get an item giving you an advantage that is NOT available for FREE in game? Like Maelstrom Weapons...
According to most people on this thread buying Maelstrom Weapons, Raid Tier Armor etc., is not pay to win since the items are available in game.
Also, Maelstrom weapons apparently are not very good.0 -
Mattock_Romulus✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w
For me, eso is heavily p2w.
Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.
But you don't pay for vMA or asylum weapons. You pay for DLC. You pay to play, same as you paid for game. You still need to work for them.
And what is "win" part in wardens? It's all about knowledge and skill, not just class. If I'll take warden - it won't be better then any other class.
But can i get vma or asylum weapons without the dlc?
Can i get robust fury rings without summerset?
Let me Show you an example:
2x StamDKs dueling. Same setups. Ravager + Fury and Bloodspawn. One without any dlc or chapter. The other one with all of it.
The paying player can get: Robust juwelry giving him more Damage and healing and backbar he can put the normal asylum 2h for more ult gen.
Both players have the same skilllevel. Butthe paying one got more damage/healing die to robust rings and more ult gen with asylum that the non paying player can never ever get without spending money.
No p2w? Really?
You can't get vMA weapon (well, except days of free ESO+). You also can't get anything without buying base game itself, you know? You need to pay for it, so it's "pay-to-win" from the first day! Stupid, yeah?
It would be P2W if you could buy vMA weapon for crowns. But it's not pay-to-win if you get part of the game. It's pay-to-play and play-to-win, absolutely as base game.
Dude what?
Pls tell me exactly how robust fury rings in my example of 2 StamDKs with the same skill level are not an advantage.
I am waiting.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
"Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!"
Robust Fury/Advancing Yokeda/Ravager/7th Legion and much more are better items.
You are missing the point so bad that the entire US navy could sail past you and you'd never see em.
You are trying to compare what is considered content updates (yes, you have to buy content to get the stuff said content provides) vs in game store items to gain an advantage. 1 does not equal the other.Robust Fury/Advancing Yokeda/Ravager/7th Legion and much more are better items.
Robust Fury- Warrior's Fury is a Elite Gear Set. Sets pieces can be bought directly from the Elite Gear Vendors using Alliance Points, and are also available via "Rewards for the Worthy" mails by participating in PvP.
Advancing Yokeda-Berserking Warrior: Hel Ra Citadel Location of Hel Ra Citadel this Trial can be found in the South West of Craglorn.
7th Legion-Name: Seventh Legion Brute Type: Overland Location: Bangkorai
Raveger - Where to find Cyrodiil - Where to find
Cyrodiil - Vlastarus Elite Gear Vendor
Cyrodiil - Possible Daily Quest Reward
PvP - Rewards of the Worthy (Armor only)
OMG!!!! SO P2W THAT EVERY SET YOU LISTED IS IN THE BASE GAME!!!! *** ZOS!!!! STOP P2W!!!!
Idk how you can be really this stupid. All these sets come with HEALTHY juwelry. HEALTHY.
Only with summerset you can transmute them to ROBUST.
And before you say "TrANsMUtATioN iS pArT oF THe BAse GaME "
You cant learn juwelry traits without summerset wich is needed to transmute.
Dude, Headshot. Do some research before posting. Thanks.
I was going to point out that these sets frequently mimic existing, base game sets, with marginally increased stats while also applying serious penalties that the player needs to work around. Case in point, Advancing Yokudan vs. Leviathan. To say nothing of the fact that people were already using 7th legion weapons and jewelry in PvP DPS long before retraiting became a thing, with a similar story for Ravager. So, yes, do some research.
@Gnozo... Boom head shot. Maybe you should start using that brain of yours for something more than holding your ears apart. huh? just a suggestion. No expansion gives a DPS increase of another that's so massive that previous sets are made obsolete. Just like the difference between a Khajiit Magicka Sorc and an Altmer is less than 3%. Please.... learn the game before you start foaming at the mouth. Look at options instead of just following what everyone else tells you. in other words... think for yourself.
is this where I get to be a *** and scream BOOM!!!! HEAD SHOT!!!!
Actually my point still stands. Shown in previous posts that for example a StamDK with following sets:
Fury + Ravager + Bloodspawn can go with Robust juwelry instead of healthy. Giving him more Damage + Healing + Sustain.
A Player without Summerset CAN`T get this with exactly the same setup. So the setup with summerset gets a buff that a player without summerset can´t get no matter how hard he tries.
Even when its only 1% in general. It is still an advantage over the player without Summerset who uses the same setup.
Now defend this more like the little fanboy you are.
*insert random reaction gif to be cool*
This isn't exactly true.
Someone without Summerset can't retrait jewelry themselves, but they can pay someone else to do it for them.
Edit: I only just found out retraiting binds the item, whoopsie.
He's actually right, if you transmute something it is bound to your account. So yeah, thats pay to win.
Hmmmmmm interesting
Again, incorrect. In the end it is still something obtainable in game hence not more powerful.
As stated previously, people can say whatever they want is P2W but what the masses consider P2W is pretty solid and is an example that does not measure up by any means.
This definition of pay to win is so weak it allows for buying raid gear, end game weapons, increased mount speed, keeps etc. It leads to absolute absurdity.Edited by Mattock_Romulus on August 11, 2018 1:53AM0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It is pretty silly to debate P2W. Why does anyone care how that is defined?
What matters is practices in a game that alienate the player base. In a game that markets itself like ESO, being able to raise your power level proportionally to how much money you spend will kill the game. Players came to the game based on communication from ZOS that they would not do that. For a mobile game build around people paying money to increase their power level and the promise that the more they spend, the more powerful they will be, such a practice is fine.
Clearly in ESO spending real money can get you more gold in game that can make it easier for the big spender to reach the highest power levels. People can also do it almost as easily though without spending real money. If you can reach the highest power level with non-bind on pickup gear, than people can use real world money to get the best gear. What they can't do is use real world money to get better gear than those who don't spend real world money. When I make this statement, it is with the premise that expansions and DLC are reasonable minimum requirements for keeping pace.
There are people who like to focus on the requirement to spend any money, such as needing to buy expansions for certain things. There is nothing wrong with the game being designed so that people need to buy expansions or DLC. I don't care if people want to call that P2W. Labels don't matter. What matters is that expecting players to buy expansions is a reasonable approach for the devs to take.2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w
For me, eso is heavily p2w.
Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.
If buying expansions is pay to win then just about every MMO out there is pay to win and the term becomes useless.
I've always considered pay to win to be when the game offers you exclusive items you can buy with cash that gives you a clear advantage over other players.
Edited by Jeremy on August 11, 2018 2:28AM1 -
Thunderknuckles✭✭✭✭Enemoriana wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w
For me, eso is heavily p2w.
Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.
But you don't pay for vMA or asylum weapons. You pay for DLC. You pay to play, same as you paid for game. You still need to work for them.
And what is "win" part in wardens? It's all about knowledge and skill, not just class. If I'll take warden - it won't be better then any other class.
But can i get vma or asylum weapons without the dlc?
Can i get robust fury rings without summerset?
Let me Show you an example:
2x StamDKs dueling. Same setups. Ravager + Fury and Bloodspawn. One without any dlc or chapter. The other one with all of it.
The paying player can get: Robust juwelry giving him more Damage and healing and backbar he can put the normal asylum 2h for more ult gen.
Both players have the same skilllevel. Butthe paying one got more damage/healing die to robust rings and more ult gen with asylum that the non paying player can never ever get without spending money.
No p2w? Really?
You can't get vMA weapon (well, except days of free ESO+). You also can't get anything without buying base game itself, you know? You need to pay for it, so it's "pay-to-win" from the first day! Stupid, yeah?
It would be P2W if you could buy vMA weapon for crowns. But it's not pay-to-win if you get part of the game. It's pay-to-play and play-to-win, absolutely as base game.
Dude what?
Pls tell me exactly how robust fury rings in my example of 2 StamDKs with the same skill level are not an advantage.
I am waiting.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
"Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!"
Robust Fury/Advancing Yokeda/Ravager/7th Legion and much more are better items.
You are missing the point so bad that the entire US navy could sail past you and you'd never see em.
You are trying to compare what is considered content updates (yes, you have to buy content to get the stuff said content provides) vs in game store items to gain an advantage. 1 does not equal the other.Robust Fury/Advancing Yokeda/Ravager/7th Legion and much more are better items.
Robust Fury- Warrior's Fury is a Elite Gear Set. Sets pieces can be bought directly from the Elite Gear Vendors using Alliance Points, and are also available via "Rewards for the Worthy" mails by participating in PvP.
Advancing Yokeda-Berserking Warrior: Hel Ra Citadel Location of Hel Ra Citadel this Trial can be found in the South West of Craglorn.
7th Legion-Name: Seventh Legion Brute Type: Overland Location: Bangkorai
Raveger - Where to find Cyrodiil - Where to find
Cyrodiil - Vlastarus Elite Gear Vendor
Cyrodiil - Possible Daily Quest Reward
PvP - Rewards of the Worthy (Armor only)
OMG!!!! SO P2W THAT EVERY SET YOU LISTED IS IN THE BASE GAME!!!! *** ZOS!!!! STOP P2W!!!!
Idk how you can be really this stupid. All these sets come with HEALTHY juwelry. HEALTHY.
Only with summerset you can transmute them to ROBUST.
And before you say "TrANsMUtATioN iS pArT oF THe BAse GaME "
You cant learn juwelry traits without summerset wich is needed to transmute.
Dude, Headshot. Do some research before posting. Thanks.
I'm just genuinely curious. Do you feel that all DLC should be free?0 -
Genomic✭✭✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »It is pretty silly to debate P2W. Why does anyone care how that is defined?
What matters is practices in a game that alienate the player base. In a game that markets itself like ESO, being able to raise your power level proportionally to how much money you spend will kill the game. Players came to the game based on communication from ZOS that they would not do that. For a mobile game build around people paying money to increase their power level and the promise that the more they spend, the more powerful they will be, such a practice is fine.
Clearly in ESO spending real money can get you more gold in game that can make it easier for the big spender to reach the highest power levels. People can also do it almost as easily though without spending real money. If you can reach the highest power level with non-bind on pickup gear, than people can use real world money to get the best gear. What they can't do is use real world money to get better gear than those who don't spend real world money. When I make this statement, it is with the premise that expansions and DLC are reasonable minimum requirements for keeping pace.
There are people who like to focus on the requirement to spend any money, such as needing to buy expansions for certain things. There is nothing wrong with the game being designed so that people need to buy expansions or DLC. I don't care if people want to call that P2W. Labels don't matter. What matters is that expecting players to buy expansions is a reasonable approach for the devs to take.
This is the correct answer. P2W is kind of an arbitrary line to draw in the sand when you're talking about MMOs, which have no 'winning' as such and more a continuous playing of the game. Costumes, for example, are a huge part of many people's experience in an MMO. So if someone can slap down a credit card and instantly buy a costume that may take a year in-game to build up the skills to craft, then, in the context of an MMO that is a type of P2W.Edited by Genomic on August 11, 2018 2:55AM0 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w
For me, eso is heavily p2w.
Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.
But you don't pay for vMA or asylum weapons. You pay for DLC. You pay to play, same as you paid for game. You still need to work for them.
And what is "win" part in wardens? It's all about knowledge and skill, not just class. If I'll take warden - it won't be better then any other class.
But can i get vma or asylum weapons without the dlc?
Can i get robust fury rings without summerset?
Let me Show you an example:
2x StamDKs dueling. Same setups. Ravager + Fury and Bloodspawn. One without any dlc or chapter. The other one with all of it.
The paying player can get: Robust juwelry giving him more Damage and healing and backbar he can put the normal asylum 2h for more ult gen.
Both players have the same skilllevel. Butthe paying one got more damage/healing die to robust rings and more ult gen with asylum that the non paying player can never ever get without spending money.
No p2w? Really?
You can't get vMA weapon (well, except days of free ESO+). You also can't get anything without buying base game itself, you know? You need to pay for it, so it's "pay-to-win" from the first day! Stupid, yeah?
It would be P2W if you could buy vMA weapon for crowns. But it's not pay-to-win if you get part of the game. It's pay-to-play and play-to-win, absolutely as base game.
Dude what?
Pls tell me exactly how robust fury rings in my example of 2 StamDKs with the same skill level are not an advantage.
I am waiting.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
"Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!"
Robust Fury/Advancing Yokeda/Ravager/7th Legion and much more are better items.
You are missing the point so bad that the entire US navy could sail past you and you'd never see em.
You are trying to compare what is considered content updates (yes, you have to buy content to get the stuff said content provides) vs in game store items to gain an advantage. 1 does not equal the other.Robust Fury/Advancing Yokeda/Ravager/7th Legion and much more are better items.
Robust Fury- Warrior's Fury is a Elite Gear Set. Sets pieces can be bought directly from the Elite Gear Vendors using Alliance Points, and are also available via "Rewards for the Worthy" mails by participating in PvP.
Advancing Yokeda-Berserking Warrior: Hel Ra Citadel Location of Hel Ra Citadel this Trial can be found in the South West of Craglorn.
7th Legion-Name: Seventh Legion Brute Type: Overland Location: Bangkorai
Raveger - Where to find Cyrodiil - Where to find
Cyrodiil - Vlastarus Elite Gear Vendor
Cyrodiil - Possible Daily Quest Reward
PvP - Rewards of the Worthy (Armor only)
OMG!!!! SO P2W THAT EVERY SET YOU LISTED IS IN THE BASE GAME!!!! *** ZOS!!!! STOP P2W!!!!
Idk how you can be really this stupid. All these sets come with HEALTHY juwelry. HEALTHY.
Only with summerset you can transmute them to ROBUST.
And before you say "TrANsMUtATioN iS pArT oF THe BAse GaME "
You cant learn juwelry traits without summerset wich is needed to transmute.
Dude, Headshot. Do some research before posting. Thanks.
I was going to point out that these sets frequently mimic existing, base game sets, with marginally increased stats while also applying serious penalties that the player needs to work around. Case in point, Advancing Yokudan vs. Leviathan. To say nothing of the fact that people were already using 7th legion weapons and jewelry in PvP DPS long before retraiting became a thing, with a similar story for Ravager. So, yes, do some research.
@Gnozo... Boom head shot. Maybe you should start using that brain of yours for something more than holding your ears apart. huh? just a suggestion. No expansion gives a DPS increase of another that's so massive that previous sets are made obsolete. Just like the difference between a Khajiit Magicka Sorc and an Altmer is less than 3%. Please.... learn the game before you start foaming at the mouth. Look at options instead of just following what everyone else tells you. in other words... think for yourself.
is this where I get to be a *** and scream BOOM!!!! HEAD SHOT!!!!
Actually my point still stands. Shown in previous posts that for example a StamDK with following sets:
Fury + Ravager + Bloodspawn can go with Robust juwelry instead of healthy. Giving him more Damage + Healing + Sustain.
A Player without Summerset CAN`T get this with exactly the same setup. So the setup with summerset gets a buff that a player without summerset can´t get no matter how hard he tries.
Even when its only 1% in general. It is still an advantage over the player without Summerset who uses the same setup.
Now defend this more like the little fanboy you are.
*insert random reaction gif to be cool*
So you get to put some more stamina enchants on your armor instead of health glyphs. How will you ever survive?
Who tf puts health enchants on his armor. Either you Go with prismatic or stam/magicka enchants.
What is your point in here? Average hp of a stamdk is about 24-25k in heavy armor. No need for health enchants.
Prismatic on the big pieces and max stam on the smal ones. Prismatic more for the max magicka for your utility skills. Yet the one who can retrait juwelry will have more max stamina and the non-summerset owner will have less with the same setup.
Ofc you not gonna win automaticly with this setup but robust rings will give you an advantage over the other player that can only use healthy rings.0 -
WarMasterCyp✭✭✭generalmyrick wrote: »
the 2 options are pretty much the same.
1) Should have been "experience gained" (paid)
2) Should have been "damage deal" (paid)0 -
WeylandLabs✭✭✭✭✭I stole this from Reddit I just C&P had 21k agrees.
Generally, it's used to describe games that have a cash store where game items can be bought with real money, and those items are perceived as too big of an advantage.
In essence, if you don't spend additional money, others who have done so will have the upper hand.
In this case Zos dlc's and OP items can be earned-farmed-goldbought-traded-crowns2buy. So is ESO p2w ? Yes in a different form, new sets are always broken-op until the next dlc, thus you pay for.Edited by WeylandLabs on August 12, 2018 11:55PM0 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭Shokasegambit1 wrote: »I stole this from Reddit I just C&P had 21k agrees.
Generally, it's used to describe games that have a cash store where game items can be bought with real money, and those items are perceived as too big of an advantage.
In essence, if you don't spend additional money, others who have done so will have the upper hand.
In this case Zos dlc's and OP items can be earned-farmed-goldbought-traded-crowns2buy. So is ESO p2w ? Yes in a different form, new sets are always broken-op until the next dlc, thus you pay for.
You're kinda trying to shoe horn the definition into Expansions/DLCs. Expansion/DLC's sets being to strong is a balancing issue, not a P2W issue. They've been pretty good about not making any set more than 2-3% stronger than another other set. Some are broken yes, but they tend to get fixed.
As far as OP items, show me one item that can be purchased with crowns in the crown store that you can buy. From what I see this doesn't exist. You have to purchase said content to get said item through playing said game with said content. This is not pay to win. If you insist this is then every game that has come out since the existence of games (which has a very very very long history) is P2W if they have any deviation from the original game/rules put in place.
You really want to see P2W, look at games like Archage, or most Korean based F2P MMO's. Those are pay to win.#SavePlayer10 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w
For me, eso is heavily p2w.
Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.
But you don't pay for vMA or asylum weapons. You pay for DLC. You pay to play, same as you paid for game. You still need to work for them.
And what is "win" part in wardens? It's all about knowledge and skill, not just class. If I'll take warden - it won't be better then any other class.
But can i get vma or asylum weapons without the dlc?
Can i get robust fury rings without summerset?
Let me Show you an example:
2x StamDKs dueling. Same setups. Ravager + Fury and Bloodspawn. One without any dlc or chapter. The other one with all of it.
The paying player can get: Robust juwelry giving him more Damage and healing and backbar he can put the normal asylum 2h for more ult gen.
Both players have the same skilllevel. Butthe paying one got more damage/healing die to robust rings and more ult gen with asylum that the non paying player can never ever get without spending money.
No p2w? Really?
You can't get vMA weapon (well, except days of free ESO+). You also can't get anything without buying base game itself, you know? You need to pay for it, so it's "pay-to-win" from the first day! Stupid, yeah?
It would be P2W if you could buy vMA weapon for crowns. But it's not pay-to-win if you get part of the game. It's pay-to-play and play-to-win, absolutely as base game.
Dude what?
Pls tell me exactly how robust fury rings in my example of 2 StamDKs with the same skill level are not an advantage.
I am waiting.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
"Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!"
Robust Fury/Advancing Yokeda/Ravager/7th Legion and much more are better items.
You are missing the point so bad that the entire US navy could sail past you and you'd never see em.
You are trying to compare what is considered content updates (yes, you have to buy content to get the stuff said content provides) vs in game store items to gain an advantage. 1 does not equal the other.Robust Fury/Advancing Yokeda/Ravager/7th Legion and much more are better items.
Robust Fury- Warrior's Fury is a Elite Gear Set. Sets pieces can be bought directly from the Elite Gear Vendors using Alliance Points, and are also available via "Rewards for the Worthy" mails by participating in PvP.
Advancing Yokeda-Berserking Warrior: Hel Ra Citadel Location of Hel Ra Citadel this Trial can be found in the South West of Craglorn.
7th Legion-Name: Seventh Legion Brute Type: Overland Location: Bangkorai
Raveger - Where to find Cyrodiil - Where to find
Cyrodiil - Vlastarus Elite Gear Vendor
Cyrodiil - Possible Daily Quest Reward
PvP - Rewards of the Worthy (Armor only)
OMG!!!! SO P2W THAT EVERY SET YOU LISTED IS IN THE BASE GAME!!!! *** ZOS!!!! STOP P2W!!!!
Idk how you can be really this stupid. All these sets come with HEALTHY juwelry. HEALTHY.
Only with summerset you can transmute them to ROBUST.
And before you say "TrANsMUtATioN iS pArT oF THe BAse GaME "
You cant learn juwelry traits without summerset wich is needed to transmute.
Dude, Headshot. Do some research before posting. Thanks.
I was going to point out that these sets frequently mimic existing, base game sets, with marginally increased stats while also applying serious penalties that the player needs to work around. Case in point, Advancing Yokudan vs. Leviathan. To say nothing of the fact that people were already using 7th legion weapons and jewelry in PvP DPS long before retraiting became a thing, with a similar story for Ravager. So, yes, do some research.
@Gnozo... Boom head shot. Maybe you should start using that brain of yours for something more than holding your ears apart. huh? just a suggestion. No expansion gives a DPS increase of another that's so massive that previous sets are made obsolete. Just like the difference between a Khajiit Magicka Sorc and an Altmer is less than 3%. Please.... learn the game before you start foaming at the mouth. Look at options instead of just following what everyone else tells you. in other words... think for yourself.
is this where I get to be a *** and scream BOOM!!!! HEAD SHOT!!!!
Actually my point still stands. Shown in previous posts that for example a StamDK with following sets:
Fury + Ravager + Bloodspawn can go with Robust juwelry instead of healthy. Giving him more Damage + Healing + Sustain.
A Player without Summerset CAN`T get this with exactly the same setup. So the setup with summerset gets a buff that a player without summerset can´t get no matter how hard he tries.
Even when its only 1% in general. It is still an advantage over the player without Summerset who uses the same setup.
Now defend this more like the little fanboy you are.
*insert random reaction gif to be cool*
Not a fanboy, someone who has a brain based in logic and uses it. Apparently you do not.
By your logic... which is pretty much non-existant... If I buy Skyrim, and you buy Skyrim + DLCs you are now P2W.... That's just stupid.
You are so worried about that 1% that you don't even realize that you won't even see that 1% on any parse. Why you ask? well, because if you could see that 1% you'd have bought Summerset because you'd be in the top 1-5% of the player base as really really good. But since you are here arguing about something that doesn't exist... I can tell you aren't in that section of the player base and that 1-3% increase of performance on a character played optimally is not something you have to worry about.
Do some research and look at alternatives. There are people putting up respectable numbers that don't use Summerset items. This is called using your brain.... I know it's hard.
#SavePlayer10 -
Gorilla✭✭✭For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w
For me, eso is heavily p2w.
Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.
Not even close. You should play some P2W games and see the difference. Everything you described is part of the game.0 -
WeylandLabs✭✭✭✭✭@Xundiin Can I gift you crowns ? Yes ! Will you give me crafted Sloads jewelry infused ? Yes that's one ! I can name more also...
Oh that's a balance issue ? Well Mr Wizard tell me the trend and pattern of every dlc and each overpreforming set. Hmmmm that's odd ? That's every DLC, your comment is irrelevant and any person with common sence knows this.
Maybe this should be an Esport too huh ?
If some of you fanbois had a real life you can look at this from a business perspective. ESO has been out for 4 1/2 years already - from a business standpoint how do you keep players playing - and how do you bring in new players ? How to we maximize profits ?
Its certainly not grind2w nor farm2w or socialize2w no it's p2w. But in this case nobody is winning becuase of balance correct ? Well let's say it's balanced boom ? Now is skill a factor ? Nope why ? RNG fighting is not skill measuring skill on proc rates is useless. And you are officially a crazy person and think slot machines are skillful. So when I think ESO is p2w and the only argument is "that's a balance issue" keep saying that every dlc that comes out for the next 4 to 5 years.
Drops MIC!
Edited by WeylandLabs on August 13, 2018 2:59AM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Shokasegambit1 wrote: »I stole this from Reddit I just C&P had 21k agrees.
Generally, it's used to describe games that have a cash store where game items can be bought with real money, and those items are perceived as too big of an advantage.
In essence, if you don't spend additional money, others who have done so will have the upper hand.
In this case Zos dlc's and OP items can be earned-farmed-goldbought-traded-crowns2buy. So is ESO p2w ? Yes in a different form, new sets are always broken-op until the next dlc, thus you pay for.
What you took from Redit is correct. However, you are manipulating it to say something it clearly does not say or you are ignoring that which you copied from Redit.
For one, there is nothing in the most recent expansion that provide a big advantage over anything else. That is key.0 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭Shokasegambit1 wrote: »@Xundiin Can I gift you crowns ? Yes ! Will you give me crafted Sloads jewelry infused ? Yes that's one ! I can name more also...
Oh that's a balance issue ? Well Mr Wizard tell me the trend and pattern of every dlc and each overpreforming set. Hmmmm that's odd ? That's every DLC, your comment is irrelevant and any person with common sence knows this.
Maybe this should be an Esport too huh ?
If some of you fanbois had a real life you can look at this from a business perspective. ESO has been out for 4 1/2 years already - from a business standpoint how do you keep players playing - and how do you bring in new players ? How to we maximize profits ?
Its certainly not grind2w nor farm2w or socialize2w no it's p2w. But in this case nobody is winning becuase of balance correct ? Well let's say it's balanced boom ? Now is skill a factor ? Nope why ? RNG fighting is not skill measuring skill on proc rates is useless. And you are officially a crazy person and think slot machines are skillful. So when I think ESO is p2w and the only argument is "that's a balance issue" keep saying that every dlc that comes out for the next 4 to 5 years.
Drops MIC!
Might want to pic up your mic...
First off... transferring crowns from one player to another player isn't pay to win... nor will it ever be. if that is pay to win then buying gear off the traders for gold is. How stupid do you have to be to believe that is pay 2 win.
Second off.... you can not... repeat can not purchase gear/weapons/enchants off the crown store for real money that is better or even equivalent to in game items.... period. Again not pay to win
Third... welcome to MMO's Releasing new content with new gear that has higher stats, more powerful, ect to get players to repeat the grind they did previously is something that is repeated in most games if not all in today's market.... it's called business. You create content to draw players in to play your content which allows you to create more content. This isn't rocket science sweet heart. Still not pay to win.
Fourth... They have nerfed sets to be more in balance with other sets WHILE the current content is relevant... this is called balancing.. Kinda like how classes go from the top of the DPS meters to the bottom after certain patches? You know... that thing which is pretty common in all games.
Bottom line is, pay to wins actual definition has been so watered down that most people don't even know what it actually means. As someone who has actually played pay 2 win games ESO is not one of them. It's not even close to one.
Edited by Xundiin on August 13, 2018 4:14AM#SavePlayer11 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w
For me, eso is heavily p2w.
Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.
But you don't pay for vMA or asylum weapons. You pay for DLC. You pay to play, same as you paid for game. You still need to work for them.
And what is "win" part in wardens? It's all about knowledge and skill, not just class. If I'll take warden - it won't be better then any other class.
But can i get vma or asylum weapons without the dlc?
Can i get robust fury rings without summerset?
Let me Show you an example:
2x StamDKs dueling. Same setups. Ravager + Fury and Bloodspawn. One without any dlc or chapter. The other one with all of it.
The paying player can get: Robust juwelry giving him more Damage and healing and backbar he can put the normal asylum 2h for more ult gen.
Both players have the same skilllevel. Butthe paying one got more damage/healing die to robust rings and more ult gen with asylum that the non paying player can never ever get without spending money.
No p2w? Really?
You can't get vMA weapon (well, except days of free ESO+). You also can't get anything without buying base game itself, you know? You need to pay for it, so it's "pay-to-win" from the first day! Stupid, yeah?
It would be P2W if you could buy vMA weapon for crowns. But it's not pay-to-win if you get part of the game. It's pay-to-play and play-to-win, absolutely as base game.
Dude what?
Pls tell me exactly how robust fury rings in my example of 2 StamDKs with the same skill level are not an advantage.
I am waiting.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
"Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!"
Robust Fury/Advancing Yokeda/Ravager/7th Legion and much more are better items.
You are missing the point so bad that the entire US navy could sail past you and you'd never see em.
You are trying to compare what is considered content updates (yes, you have to buy content to get the stuff said content provides) vs in game store items to gain an advantage. 1 does not equal the other.Robust Fury/Advancing Yokeda/Ravager/7th Legion and much more are better items.
Robust Fury- Warrior's Fury is a Elite Gear Set. Sets pieces can be bought directly from the Elite Gear Vendors using Alliance Points, and are also available via "Rewards for the Worthy" mails by participating in PvP.
Advancing Yokeda-Berserking Warrior: Hel Ra Citadel Location of Hel Ra Citadel this Trial can be found in the South West of Craglorn.
7th Legion-Name: Seventh Legion Brute Type: Overland Location: Bangkorai
Raveger - Where to find Cyrodiil - Where to find
Cyrodiil - Vlastarus Elite Gear Vendor
Cyrodiil - Possible Daily Quest Reward
PvP - Rewards of the Worthy (Armor only)
OMG!!!! SO P2W THAT EVERY SET YOU LISTED IS IN THE BASE GAME!!!! *** ZOS!!!! STOP P2W!!!!
Idk how you can be really this stupid. All these sets come with HEALTHY juwelry. HEALTHY.
Only with summerset you can transmute them to ROBUST.
And before you say "TrANsMUtATioN iS pArT oF THe BAse GaME "
You cant learn juwelry traits without summerset wich is needed to transmute.
Dude, Headshot. Do some research before posting. Thanks.
I was going to point out that these sets frequently mimic existing, base game sets, with marginally increased stats while also applying serious penalties that the player needs to work around. Case in point, Advancing Yokudan vs. Leviathan. To say nothing of the fact that people were already using 7th legion weapons and jewelry in PvP DPS long before retraiting became a thing, with a similar story for Ravager. So, yes, do some research.
@Gnozo... Boom head shot. Maybe you should start using that brain of yours for something more than holding your ears apart. huh? just a suggestion. No expansion gives a DPS increase of another that's so massive that previous sets are made obsolete. Just like the difference between a Khajiit Magicka Sorc and an Altmer is less than 3%. Please.... learn the game before you start foaming at the mouth. Look at options instead of just following what everyone else tells you. in other words... think for yourself.
is this where I get to be a *** and scream BOOM!!!! HEAD SHOT!!!!
Actually my point still stands. Shown in previous posts that for example a StamDK with following sets:
Fury + Ravager + Bloodspawn can go with Robust juwelry instead of healthy. Giving him more Damage + Healing + Sustain.
A Player without Summerset CAN`T get this with exactly the same setup. So the setup with summerset gets a buff that a player without summerset can´t get no matter how hard he tries.
Even when its only 1% in general. It is still an advantage over the player without Summerset who uses the same setup.
Now defend this more like the little fanboy you are.
*insert random reaction gif to be cool*
Not a fanboy, someone who has a brain based in logic and uses it. Apparently you do not.
By your logic... which is pretty much non-existant... If I buy Skyrim, and you buy Skyrim + DLCs you are now P2W.... That's just stupid.
You are so worried about that 1% that you don't even realize that you won't even see that 1% on any parse. Why you ask? well, because if you could see that 1% you'd have bought Summerset because you'd be in the top 1-5% of the player base as really really good. But since you are here arguing about something that doesn't exist... I can tell you aren't in that section of the player base and that 1-3% increase of performance on a character played optimally is not something you have to worry about.
Do some research and look at alternatives. There are people putting up respectable numbers that don't use Summerset items. This is called using your brain.... I know it's hard.
I am not talking about dps parse. I am talking about pvp.
Robust juwelry give you 2520 more stamina on purple quality. Thats a huuuuge advantage over the other player that can only use healthy juwelry.
So for me in my personal opinion: The one who spend more money on the game, buying base game and chapters (Summerset) CAN get better gear then the player who only bought the base game. Wich is for me paytowin.
He can make the gear from the base game better then the one only having base game.
So, paying more money then the base game gives you the oppurtunity to get better gear then the player that only got the base game.
Pay more money = better gear = pay2win.0 -
Elwendryll✭✭✭✭✭
✭People just want to play games for free these days. Just pay a subscription, and you'll get access to everything. Summerset? Wait for the next expansion, it will become part of the base game.
Anyway, the dlc content offers alternatives, the meta built by the top players take all the available items into account. But you can achieve nearly similar results with base game items, just use your own knowledge of the game to theorycraft. And no, a Maelstrom weapon will not make you able to get this vet HM achievement you've been struggling on.
PC - EU - France - AD
Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
Guildmaster of Oriflamme: Focus on 4 player endgame content.
Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.
All 4-man trifectas - TTT, IR, GH0 -
Danny_UK✭✭✭Both the same thing really whether I could afford to pay for it or not if someone else has paid to be a higher level than me then it's p2w. If everyone started their character from the beginning and there is an option to purchase a character at level 50 or above it's p2w.0
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Sparr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭Something that gives you a significant advantage, which otherwise cannot be obtained in the game.
EDIT: Cosmetics, time savers etc. aren't P2WEdited by Sparr0w on August 13, 2018 1:50PM@Sparr0w so I get the notification
Xbox (EU) - l Sparrow x | CP 810+DD: All Mag + StamPC (EU) - Sparrxw | CP 810+
Heal: Templar | Sorc | NB | Warden | Necro
Tank: NB | DK | Warden
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GHDD: All Mag + Stam
Heal: Templar | Sorc
Tank: DK | NB
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH + GS0 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w
For me, eso is heavily p2w.
Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.
But you don't pay for vMA or asylum weapons. You pay for DLC. You pay to play, same as you paid for game. You still need to work for them.
And what is "win" part in wardens? It's all about knowledge and skill, not just class. If I'll take warden - it won't be better then any other class.
But can i get vma or asylum weapons without the dlc?
Can i get robust fury rings without summerset?
Let me Show you an example:
2x StamDKs dueling. Same setups. Ravager + Fury and Bloodspawn. One without any dlc or chapter. The other one with all of it.
The paying player can get: Robust juwelry giving him more Damage and healing and backbar he can put the normal asylum 2h for more ult gen.
Both players have the same skilllevel. Butthe paying one got more damage/healing die to robust rings and more ult gen with asylum that the non paying player can never ever get without spending money.
No p2w? Really?
You can't get vMA weapon (well, except days of free ESO+). You also can't get anything without buying base game itself, you know? You need to pay for it, so it's "pay-to-win" from the first day! Stupid, yeah?
It would be P2W if you could buy vMA weapon for crowns. But it's not pay-to-win if you get part of the game. It's pay-to-play and play-to-win, absolutely as base game.
Dude what?
Pls tell me exactly how robust fury rings in my example of 2 StamDKs with the same skill level are not an advantage.
I am waiting.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
"Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!"
Robust Fury/Advancing Yokeda/Ravager/7th Legion and much more are better items.
You are missing the point so bad that the entire US navy could sail past you and you'd never see em.
You are trying to compare what is considered content updates (yes, you have to buy content to get the stuff said content provides) vs in game store items to gain an advantage. 1 does not equal the other.Robust Fury/Advancing Yokeda/Ravager/7th Legion and much more are better items.
Robust Fury- Warrior's Fury is a Elite Gear Set. Sets pieces can be bought directly from the Elite Gear Vendors using Alliance Points, and are also available via "Rewards for the Worthy" mails by participating in PvP.
Advancing Yokeda-Berserking Warrior: Hel Ra Citadel Location of Hel Ra Citadel this Trial can be found in the South West of Craglorn.
7th Legion-Name: Seventh Legion Brute Type: Overland Location: Bangkorai
Raveger - Where to find Cyrodiil - Where to find
Cyrodiil - Vlastarus Elite Gear Vendor
Cyrodiil - Possible Daily Quest Reward
PvP - Rewards of the Worthy (Armor only)
OMG!!!! SO P2W THAT EVERY SET YOU LISTED IS IN THE BASE GAME!!!! *** ZOS!!!! STOP P2W!!!!
Idk how you can be really this stupid. All these sets come with HEALTHY juwelry. HEALTHY.
Only with summerset you can transmute them to ROBUST.
And before you say "TrANsMUtATioN iS pArT oF THe BAse GaME "
You cant learn juwelry traits without summerset wich is needed to transmute.
Dude, Headshot. Do some research before posting. Thanks.
I was going to point out that these sets frequently mimic existing, base game sets, with marginally increased stats while also applying serious penalties that the player needs to work around. Case in point, Advancing Yokudan vs. Leviathan. To say nothing of the fact that people were already using 7th legion weapons and jewelry in PvP DPS long before retraiting became a thing, with a similar story for Ravager. So, yes, do some research.
@Gnozo... Boom head shot. Maybe you should start using that brain of yours for something more than holding your ears apart. huh? just a suggestion. No expansion gives a DPS increase of another that's so massive that previous sets are made obsolete. Just like the difference between a Khajiit Magicka Sorc and an Altmer is less than 3%. Please.... learn the game before you start foaming at the mouth. Look at options instead of just following what everyone else tells you. in other words... think for yourself.
is this where I get to be a *** and scream BOOM!!!! HEAD SHOT!!!!
Actually my point still stands. Shown in previous posts that for example a StamDK with following sets:
Fury + Ravager + Bloodspawn can go with Robust juwelry instead of healthy. Giving him more Damage + Healing + Sustain.
A Player without Summerset CAN`T get this with exactly the same setup. So the setup with summerset gets a buff that a player without summerset can´t get no matter how hard he tries.
Even when its only 1% in general. It is still an advantage over the player without Summerset who uses the same setup.
Now defend this more like the little fanboy you are.
*insert random reaction gif to be cool*
Not a fanboy, someone who has a brain based in logic and uses it. Apparently you do not.
By your logic... which is pretty much non-existant... If I buy Skyrim, and you buy Skyrim + DLCs you are now P2W.... That's just stupid.
You are so worried about that 1% that you don't even realize that you won't even see that 1% on any parse. Why you ask? well, because if you could see that 1% you'd have bought Summerset because you'd be in the top 1-5% of the player base as really really good. But since you are here arguing about something that doesn't exist... I can tell you aren't in that section of the player base and that 1-3% increase of performance on a character played optimally is not something you have to worry about.
Do some research and look at alternatives. There are people putting up respectable numbers that don't use Summerset items. This is called using your brain.... I know it's hard.
I am not talking about dps parse. I am talking about pvp.
Robust juwelry give you 2520 more stamina on purple quality. Thats a huuuuge advantage over the other player that can only use healthy juwelry.
So for me in my personal opinion: The one who spend more money on the game, buying base game and chapters (Summerset) CAN get better gear then the player who only bought the base game. Wich is for me paytowin.
He can make the gear from the base game better then the one only having base game.
So, paying more money then the base game gives you the oppurtunity to get better gear then the player that only got the base game.
Pay more money = better gear = pay2win.
That's such a bastardized definition it sad. By what you are saying any game that releases new content that people don't want to buy turns that game into P2W.
using your example I can put this into another game. My favorite expansion for WoW was TBC (The Burning Crusade). I also liked doing "twink" pvp in WoW at 19 and 45. By your definition WoW becomes P2W if I refuse to purchase any of the expansions which blocks me from getting certain gear. Some of that gear is really really strong for twink pvp. That is absurd. That's not P2W, that's me being stupid and realizing that new content = new gear which = better and more powerful gear. This is not P2W, this will never be P2W.
P2W is using an in game store to purchase items to increase your power that other players who do not fork over the same amount of real money can get. For an example, one of the strongest PVPers in ArchAge spent close to 400 dollars a month to achieve maxed out gear. No one could compete with him in PVP or PVE since they couldn't afford that or was willing to spend that kind of money.... this is what is called a whale. It also what keeps P2W games afloat like Archage.
This is why I really groan every time I see one of these P2W threads because you really have no clue what it actually is.#SavePlayer10 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w
For me, eso is heavily p2w.
Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.
So every mmo with expasions is p2w?
I am actually tired of repeating myself cause ppl only reading the first page. Read the thread and rethink your question.
Yeah well - other games don´t even let you reach caplevel if you don´t pay money - even if you paid for the basegame.
So my question still stands.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Sogreth✭✭✭DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »This stupid P2W debate again... ESO is NOT P2W, just get over it.
It's pretty borderline P2W. Just get over it.
That's just YOUR definition. Not the real one.It’s beinf able to directly purchase items that make you more powerful in game than one can become from what is in game already.
It's really anything that gets you ahead. Being able to buy progression is still P2W. Not just items. So like that game Albion, you can BUY Fame (experience) with real money. That would be considered P2W.
Wrong.Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »Pay to win is when you can get something that is ONLY available through an additional purchase that gives a unique advantage over others. If the same thing can be earned in-game, then it is not pay to win.
By your logic, most mobile games wouldn't be P2W then. And we all know that they are.Edited by Sogreth on August 13, 2018 3:14PM1 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w
For me, eso is heavily p2w.
Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.
So every mmo with expasions is p2w?
I am actually tired of repeating myself cause ppl only reading the first page. Read the thread and rethink your question.
Yeah well - other games don´t even let you reach caplevel if you don´t pay money - even if you paid for the basegame.
So my question still stands.
Did i said that every dlc/chapter is p2w? Quote me where i said this directly.
Idc if you can buy armor from crownstore or a dlc/chapter that gives you the armor. The fact that with summerset you can make the base game dropped armor better still stands.
And from a competetive pvp player like you i expected that you can understand it.
A StamWarden with Trollking, Fury and 7th Legion need to use healthy juwelry.
A StamWarden who owns summerset can now make the same setup but stronger. He can transmute the healthy juwelry to robust, giving him more Damage and healing and even substain.Edited by Gnozo on August 14, 2018 7:12AM0 -
Gelmir✭✭✭ESO is only partially F2P. One should remember that. Everything beyond Vanilla game is not free, hence not falling under the F2P domain of the game. Thus, calling stuff related to those non-free DLCs and xpacs a P2W, is absurd. The only possible P2W in this game is Warden class, and tbh, you can win easily without it. It's not like Warden is BIS class in the game anyway
Actually, it indeed is another type of "cosmetic" - totally non-OP way of playing the game in a different style. Sounds like "cosmetic" to me.
This meaningless debate is not different from the discussion of Open-source licenses, to someone who doesn't understand what they are. As open-source doesn't mean "free" (so called "proprietary open source licenses"), and most of the time it can even mean "v1.0 as it was released is free, but the future updates may not be" (e.g. MIT license), the same goes for games as well. When game goes F2P, it can quite easily mean "vanilla version is going F2P", and this does not necessarily mean all future additions to the game have to be free. After all, as most MMOs nowadays, ESO is **not** a sandbox MMO, but a themepark one; which means, new content requires development, which in turn requires resources. Thus, ESO cannot be "all-time, everything free" game. And I have never seen a truly F2P themepark MMO anywhere which has thrived for a very long period of time, with content flowing in continuously - that's financially impossible! That's why the concept of P2W is not 100% applicable to themepark MMOs.Edited by Gelmir on January 2, 2019 3:37PMCheck-out ~~ GuildPlanner.Pro ~~ Your Ultimate Guild & Character Management Tool
★ Lodge of Sorceresses [PC/EU] - LF Serious PvEers: Midgame to Endgame Growth! ★ We NEED You! | Join Discord Server | Youtube Channel0 -
ATomiX96✭✭✭✭✭
✭can people please stop reviving dead threads from august 2018, necromancy isnt in the game yet.1
