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What is P2W (pay to win)
-
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Gnozo
You're right at jewellery traits, something I never wrote because I know this already but since you made it sound like non dlc players can't get asylum weapons, when a non dlc player can still get asylum weapons during eso+ free weeks I assumed you didn't know.
Also its jewellery or jewelry depending if you want to use UK or US spelling, didn't mention it the first time incase it was a typo but you did it again so thought I'd let you know.
I still stand by my point that anyone calling dlc p2w is dumb
Edited to remove quotes because phone quoted 100 things
I think it was kinda clear that i was talking about juwelry Transmutation that it can only be aquired with summerset chapter. And you said that this argument is weak cause i can use Transmutation stations without summerset.
And i also saw what you wrote before your edit and you cant learn the traits in an eso plus weekend cause chapters are not part of eso plus.
Oh and sorry about spelling . I dont care if its juwelry or juwellry. Since everyone knows what i mean its not really important. Also english is not my native language.
I don't think 2.4kish (I can't remember how much each trait gives) stam instead of 2.4k hp is p2w, yes one will have more damage but the other will be tankier. The one with more health can build fury stacks safer to get their damage quicker? So your dueling point is still weak. Robust rings =/= auto win.
Yes i was wrong summerset is the only thing not included in eso+, the other chapter morrowind is
I love how you say you don't care about spelling then use "english is not my native language" to try defend yourself when everything else you're saying is fine so obviously shows you care.
It's impossible to have a civilised argument with someone so ignorant that they can't accept they are wrong + ignore they're wrong (when I mentioned asylum weapons) and make excuses for their mistakes when advice is offered (native language)
On purple each juwelry gives you 840 stamina. This is 2520 in general. Giving you more damage and more healing and even more sustain since you have a higher stampool to throw skills out.
This is a big advantage over healthy rings. Every competetive pvp player knows it.
I can give more examples. I want to run bone pirate + advancing yokeda on my stamsorc. And i want to run medium armor. For this i need to have at least 1 healthy juwelry otherwise i wont get 5 medium armor on Body. With summerset i can get full robust.
Also i cant get triune trait on for example bone pirate and yokeda. Triune is really strong because of the max magicka for my utility skills.
You can say a lot. Still Access to Juwelry Crafting makes your build stronger then the same build without juwelry crafting.
Someone running healthy jewellery can run max stam +stam regen food instead of food that gives health but i guess that's blasphemy
Most stam builds using Dubios. Giving max health, max stam and stam recovery.
Why and what food would you use on healthy juwelry?
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Recipe:+Lava+Foot+Soup-And-Saltrice
This is giving you 4500 stam and 460 recovery.
Dubios: 3200 stam, 320 stam rec and 3500 health.
Healthy juwelry + Lava Foot Soup:
4500 Stam
460 Recovery
3x 935 health = 2805 Health
Robust Juwelry + Dubios:
3200 + 3x 840 stam = 5720 stam
3500 Health
320 Stam rec
I dont know if i did math correctly tbh. Did it fast in my work break.
Wouldn't call extra 1.2k max stam extra 700hp and 140 less regen p2w
It gives you a stronger build. Ans thats my pain point.
You cant deny it. The build is stronger when you pay money. Thats the definition of p2w.
Paying real money to get access to things that make your euipment stronger than players who dont payed.
I disagree since you have to play content, if it was like you buy some crowns, enter the crown store and boom your builds automatically stronger then I'd agree game is p2w but it's not like that.
If you think this is p2w every game that has dlc is p2w since all dlc come with something nice that can't be obtained in base games, especially an mmorpg where the most common sort of dlc are new raids/area that drops new gear
I disagree with everyone who says this is p2w because there are people who buy this content and can't complete it so they paid money, wheres their W?
EDIT - it gives you less regen so it's not 100% stronger @ your first point
Ofc you need to work for it. But you need to spend money in the first step. Players without spending money would never get it.
And where is the work at learning a juwelry trait? Hit "research" on a random Ring and wait an hour? Idk research time.
If zenimax now release a Chapter where you get a weapons wich deals 10k Oblivion damage on every light attack. But to get this weapon we first need to kill one easy peasy world boss. This is not p2w cause you need to "work" for it?
I know this is overtuned example but it shows how stupid this "you still need to work for it" Argument is.0 -
Hibernato✭✭✭@Gnozo
You're right at jewellery traits, something I never wrote because I know this already but since you made it sound like non dlc players can't get asylum weapons, when a non dlc player can still get asylum weapons during eso+ free weeks I assumed you didn't know.
Also its jewellery or jewelry depending if you want to use UK or US spelling, didn't mention it the first time incase it was a typo but you did it again so thought I'd let you know.
I still stand by my point that anyone calling dlc p2w is dumb
Edited to remove quotes because phone quoted 100 things
I think it was kinda clear that i was talking about juwelry Transmutation that it can only be aquired with summerset chapter. And you said that this argument is weak cause i can use Transmutation stations without summerset.
And i also saw what you wrote before your edit and you cant learn the traits in an eso plus weekend cause chapters are not part of eso plus.
Oh and sorry about spelling . I dont care if its juwelry or juwellry. Since everyone knows what i mean its not really important. Also english is not my native language.
I don't think 2.4kish (I can't remember how much each trait gives) stam instead of 2.4k hp is p2w, yes one will have more damage but the other will be tankier. The one with more health can build fury stacks safer to get their damage quicker? So your dueling point is still weak. Robust rings =/= auto win.
Yes i was wrong summerset is the only thing not included in eso+, the other chapter morrowind is
I love how you say you don't care about spelling then use "english is not my native language" to try defend yourself when everything else you're saying is fine so obviously shows you care.
It's impossible to have a civilised argument with someone so ignorant that they can't accept they are wrong + ignore they're wrong (when I mentioned asylum weapons) and make excuses for their mistakes when advice is offered (native language)
On purple each juwelry gives you 840 stamina. This is 2520 in general. Giving you more damage and more healing and even more sustain since you have a higher stampool to throw skills out.
This is a big advantage over healthy rings. Every competetive pvp player knows it.
I can give more examples. I want to run bone pirate + advancing yokeda on my stamsorc. And i want to run medium armor. For this i need to have at least 1 healthy juwelry otherwise i wont get 5 medium armor on Body. With summerset i can get full robust.
Also i cant get triune trait on for example bone pirate and yokeda. Triune is really strong because of the max magicka for my utility skills.
You can say a lot. Still Access to Juwelry Crafting makes your build stronger then the same build without juwelry crafting.
Someone running healthy jewellery can run max stam +stam regen food instead of food that gives health but i guess that's blasphemy
Most stam builds using Dubios. Giving max health, max stam and stam recovery.
Why and what food would you use on healthy juwelry?
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Recipe:+Lava+Foot+Soup-And-Saltrice
This is giving you 4500 stam and 460 recovery.
Dubios: 3200 stam, 320 stam rec and 3500 health.
Healthy juwelry + Lava Foot Soup:
4500 Stam
460 Recovery
3x 935 health = 2805 Health
Robust Juwelry + Dubios:
3200 + 3x 840 stam = 5720 stam
3500 Health
320 Stam rec
I dont know if i did math correctly tbh. Did it fast in my work break.
Wouldn't call extra 1.2k max stam extra 700hp and 140 less regen p2w
It gives you a stronger build. Ans thats my pain point.
You cant deny it. The build is stronger when you pay money. Thats the definition of p2w.
Paying real money to get access to things that make your euipment stronger than players who dont payed.
I disagree since you have to play content, if it was like you buy some crowns, enter the crown store and boom your builds automatically stronger then I'd agree game is p2w but it's not like that.
If you think this is p2w every game that has dlc is p2w since all dlc come with something nice that can't be obtained in base games, especially an mmorpg where the most common sort of dlc are new raids/area that drops new gear
I disagree with everyone who says this is p2w because there are people who buy this content and can't complete it so they paid money, wheres their W?
EDIT - it gives you less regen so it's not 100% stronger @ your first point
Ofc you need to work for it. But you need to spend money in the first step. Players without spending money would never get it.
And where is the work at learning a juwelry trait? Hit "research" on a random Ring and wait an hour? Idk research time.
If zenimax now release a Chapter where you get a weapons wich deals 10k Oblivion damage on every light attack. But to get this weapon we first need to kill one easy peasy world boss. This is not p2w cause you need to "work" for it?
I know this is overtuned example but it shows how stupid this "you still need to work for it" Argument is.
You need to earn 150 crystals, unless you know a way to transmute for free?
Your example is a good example tbh, it's made me realise its a bit of both of what we believe p2w is. I think P2w in this game, is something that is easily obtained (direct purchase, put behind some easy quest etc) , makes it near impossible for your opponent be it an enemy player or npc to defeat you and can only obtained by spending crowns. This 10k oblivion damage weapon would be p2w in pvp since you'd 1-3 hit everyone who isn't a tank. Jewellery crafting isn't p2w because just because of the small stat difference we found out earlier doesn't mean you're gonna automatically win but yes jewellery crafting makes a build stronger.
I believe there's nothing p2w in eso
Edited main paragraphEdited by Hibernato on August 8, 2018 10:49AM0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Gnozo
You're right at jewellery traits, something I never wrote because I know this already but since you made it sound like non dlc players can't get asylum weapons, when a non dlc player can still get asylum weapons during eso+ free weeks I assumed you didn't know.
Also its jewellery or jewelry depending if you want to use UK or US spelling, didn't mention it the first time incase it was a typo but you did it again so thought I'd let you know.
I still stand by my point that anyone calling dlc p2w is dumb
Edited to remove quotes because phone quoted 100 things
I think it was kinda clear that i was talking about juwelry Transmutation that it can only be aquired with summerset chapter. And you said that this argument is weak cause i can use Transmutation stations without summerset.
And i also saw what you wrote before your edit and you cant learn the traits in an eso plus weekend cause chapters are not part of eso plus.
Oh and sorry about spelling . I dont care if its juwelry or juwellry. Since everyone knows what i mean its not really important. Also english is not my native language.
I don't think 2.4kish (I can't remember how much each trait gives) stam instead of 2.4k hp is p2w, yes one will have more damage but the other will be tankier. The one with more health can build fury stacks safer to get their damage quicker? So your dueling point is still weak. Robust rings =/= auto win.
Yes i was wrong summerset is the only thing not included in eso+, the other chapter morrowind is
I love how you say you don't care about spelling then use "english is not my native language" to try defend yourself when everything else you're saying is fine so obviously shows you care.
It's impossible to have a civilised argument with someone so ignorant that they can't accept they are wrong + ignore they're wrong (when I mentioned asylum weapons) and make excuses for their mistakes when advice is offered (native language)
On purple each juwelry gives you 840 stamina. This is 2520 in general. Giving you more damage and more healing and even more sustain since you have a higher stampool to throw skills out.
This is a big advantage over healthy rings. Every competetive pvp player knows it.
I can give more examples. I want to run bone pirate + advancing yokeda on my stamsorc. And i want to run medium armor. For this i need to have at least 1 healthy juwelry otherwise i wont get 5 medium armor on Body. With summerset i can get full robust.
Also i cant get triune trait on for example bone pirate and yokeda. Triune is really strong because of the max magicka for my utility skills.
You can say a lot. Still Access to Juwelry Crafting makes your build stronger then the same build without juwelry crafting.
Someone running healthy jewellery can run max stam +stam regen food instead of food that gives health but i guess that's blasphemy
Most stam builds using Dubios. Giving max health, max stam and stam recovery.
Why and what food would you use on healthy juwelry?
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Recipe:+Lava+Foot+Soup-And-Saltrice
This is giving you 4500 stam and 460 recovery.
Dubios: 3200 stam, 320 stam rec and 3500 health.
Healthy juwelry + Lava Foot Soup:
4500 Stam
460 Recovery
3x 935 health = 2805 Health
Robust Juwelry + Dubios:
3200 + 3x 840 stam = 5720 stam
3500 Health
320 Stam rec
I dont know if i did math correctly tbh. Did it fast in my work break.
Wouldn't call extra 1.2k max stam extra 700hp and 140 less regen p2w
It gives you a stronger build. Ans thats my pain point.
You cant deny it. The build is stronger when you pay money. Thats the definition of p2w.
Paying real money to get access to things that make your euipment stronger than players who dont payed.
Honestly, I see it as kinda a wash in that regard. Robust with Throne will net you less recovery, while Healthy with Stomp will get you more recovery at the expense of health and stam. I can certainly see an argument for Robust and Throne in PvP, but in PvE, the Healthy + Stomp looks pretty viable. They're different builds, but I'm not sure I'd call either one of them stronger.
Health looks to be about 700. In practical considerations, that's basically a rounding error. The Stam difference is about 1220. The recovery goes up by 140... that's not trivial. At least not in comparison to the health and stam increases.0 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Gnozo
You're right at jewellery traits, something I never wrote because I know this already but since you made it sound like non dlc players can't get asylum weapons, when a non dlc player can still get asylum weapons during eso+ free weeks I assumed you didn't know.
Also its jewellery or jewelry depending if you want to use UK or US spelling, didn't mention it the first time incase it was a typo but you did it again so thought I'd let you know.
I still stand by my point that anyone calling dlc p2w is dumb
Edited to remove quotes because phone quoted 100 things
I think it was kinda clear that i was talking about juwelry Transmutation that it can only be aquired with summerset chapter. And you said that this argument is weak cause i can use Transmutation stations without summerset.
And i also saw what you wrote before your edit and you cant learn the traits in an eso plus weekend cause chapters are not part of eso plus.
Oh and sorry about spelling . I dont care if its juwelry or juwellry. Since everyone knows what i mean its not really important. Also english is not my native language.
I don't think 2.4kish (I can't remember how much each trait gives) stam instead of 2.4k hp is p2w, yes one will have more damage but the other will be tankier. The one with more health can build fury stacks safer to get their damage quicker? So your dueling point is still weak. Robust rings =/= auto win.
Yes i was wrong summerset is the only thing not included in eso+, the other chapter morrowind is
I love how you say you don't care about spelling then use "english is not my native language" to try defend yourself when everything else you're saying is fine so obviously shows you care.
It's impossible to have a civilised argument with someone so ignorant that they can't accept they are wrong + ignore they're wrong (when I mentioned asylum weapons) and make excuses for their mistakes when advice is offered (native language)
On purple each juwelry gives you 840 stamina. This is 2520 in general. Giving you more damage and more healing and even more sustain since you have a higher stampool to throw skills out.
This is a big advantage over healthy rings. Every competetive pvp player knows it.
I can give more examples. I want to run bone pirate + advancing yokeda on my stamsorc. And i want to run medium armor. For this i need to have at least 1 healthy juwelry otherwise i wont get 5 medium armor on Body. With summerset i can get full robust.
Also i cant get triune trait on for example bone pirate and yokeda. Triune is really strong because of the max magicka for my utility skills.
You can say a lot. Still Access to Juwelry Crafting makes your build stronger then the same build without juwelry crafting.
Someone running healthy jewellery can run max stam +stam regen food instead of food that gives health but i guess that's blasphemy
Most stam builds using Dubios. Giving max health, max stam and stam recovery.
Why and what food would you use on healthy juwelry?
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Recipe:+Lava+Foot+Soup-And-Saltrice
This is giving you 4500 stam and 460 recovery.
Dubios: 3200 stam, 320 stam rec and 3500 health.
Healthy juwelry + Lava Foot Soup:
4500 Stam
460 Recovery
3x 935 health = 2805 Health
Robust Juwelry + Dubios:
3200 + 3x 840 stam = 5720 stam
3500 Health
320 Stam rec
I dont know if i did math correctly tbh. Did it fast in my work break.
Wouldn't call extra 1.2k max stam extra 700hp and 140 less regen p2w
It gives you a stronger build. Ans thats my pain point.
You cant deny it. The build is stronger when you pay money. Thats the definition of p2w.
Paying real money to get access to things that make your euipment stronger than players who dont payed.
I disagree since you have to play content, if it was like you buy some crowns, enter the crown store and boom your builds automatically stronger then I'd agree game is p2w but it's not like that.
If you think this is p2w every game that has dlc is p2w since all dlc come with something nice that can't be obtained in base games, especially an mmorpg where the most common sort of dlc are new raids/area that drops new gear
I disagree with everyone who says this is p2w because there are people who buy this content and can't complete it so they paid money, wheres their W?
EDIT - it gives you less regen so it's not 100% stronger @ your first point
Ofc you need to work for it. But you need to spend money in the first step. Players without spending money would never get it.
And where is the work at learning a juwelry trait? Hit "research" on a random Ring and wait an hour? Idk research time.
If zenimax now release a Chapter where you get a weapons wich deals 10k Oblivion damage on every light attack. But to get this weapon we first need to kill one easy peasy world boss. This is not p2w cause you need to "work" for it?
I know this is overtuned example but it shows how stupid this "you still need to work for it" Argument is.
You need to earn 150 crystals, unless you know a way to transmute for free?
Your example is a good example tbh, it's made me realise its a bit of both of what we believe p2w is. I think P2w in this game, is something that is easily obtained (put behind some easy quest for example) , makes it near impossible for your opponent be it an enemy player or npc to defeat you and can only obtained by spending crowns. This 10k oblivion damage weapon would be p2w in pvp since you'd 1-3 hit everyone who isn't a tank. Jewellery crafting isn't p2w because just because of the small stat difference we found out earlier doesn't mean you're gonna automatically win but yes jewellery crafting makes a build stronger.
I believe there's nothing p2w in eso
Edited main paragraph
Sure the "pay to win" Statement doesnt involve that you win 100% with this. Its kinda irritating.
For me its more like pay to have an advantage. Some skilled players will still kill players who got 0 exp at class and build while wearing the best in slot gear where the skilled player only have average gear.
But its still. If you buy Summerset you CAN get or make better gear then players without Summerset. Even tho the difference isnt this huge.
Paying money = stronger Builds.0 -
notyuu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pay to win: put money into the game, get power out
ESO: put money in, get convenience out0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Gnozo
You're right at jewellery traits, something I never wrote because I know this already but since you made it sound like non dlc players can't get asylum weapons, when a non dlc player can still get asylum weapons during eso+ free weeks I assumed you didn't know.
Also its jewellery or jewelry depending if you want to use UK or US spelling, didn't mention it the first time incase it was a typo but you did it again so thought I'd let you know.
I still stand by my point that anyone calling dlc p2w is dumb
Edited to remove quotes because phone quoted 100 things
I think it was kinda clear that i was talking about juwelry Transmutation that it can only be aquired with summerset chapter. And you said that this argument is weak cause i can use Transmutation stations without summerset.
And i also saw what you wrote before your edit and you cant learn the traits in an eso plus weekend cause chapters are not part of eso plus.
Oh and sorry about spelling . I dont care if its juwelry or juwellry. Since everyone knows what i mean its not really important. Also english is not my native language.
I don't think 2.4kish (I can't remember how much each trait gives) stam instead of 2.4k hp is p2w, yes one will have more damage but the other will be tankier. The one with more health can build fury stacks safer to get their damage quicker? So your dueling point is still weak. Robust rings =/= auto win.
Yes i was wrong summerset is the only thing not included in eso+, the other chapter morrowind is
I love how you say you don't care about spelling then use "english is not my native language" to try defend yourself when everything else you're saying is fine so obviously shows you care.
It's impossible to have a civilised argument with someone so ignorant that they can't accept they are wrong + ignore they're wrong (when I mentioned asylum weapons) and make excuses for their mistakes when advice is offered (native language)
On purple each juwelry gives you 840 stamina. This is 2520 in general. Giving you more damage and more healing and even more sustain since you have a higher stampool to throw skills out.
This is a big advantage over healthy rings. Every competetive pvp player knows it.
I can give more examples. I want to run bone pirate + advancing yokeda on my stamsorc. And i want to run medium armor. For this i need to have at least 1 healthy juwelry otherwise i wont get 5 medium armor on Body. With summerset i can get full robust.
Also i cant get triune trait on for example bone pirate and yokeda. Triune is really strong because of the max magicka for my utility skills.
You can say a lot. Still Access to Juwelry Crafting makes your build stronger then the same build without juwelry crafting.
Someone running healthy jewellery can run max stam +stam regen food instead of food that gives health but i guess that's blasphemy
Most stam builds using Dubios. Giving max health, max stam and stam recovery.
Why and what food would you use on healthy juwelry?
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Recipe:+Lava+Foot+Soup-And-Saltrice
This is giving you 4500 stam and 460 recovery.
Dubios: 3200 stam, 320 stam rec and 3500 health.
Healthy juwelry + Lava Foot Soup:
4500 Stam
460 Recovery
3x 935 health = 2805 Health
Robust Juwelry + Dubios:
3200 + 3x 840 stam = 5720 stam
3500 Health
320 Stam rec
I dont know if i did math correctly tbh. Did it fast in my work break.
Wouldn't call extra 1.2k max stam extra 700hp and 140 less regen p2w
It gives you a stronger build. Ans thats my pain point.
You cant deny it. The build is stronger when you pay money. Thats the definition of p2w.
Paying real money to get access to things that make your euipment stronger than players who dont payed.
I disagree since you have to play content, if it was like you buy some crowns, enter the crown store and boom your builds automatically stronger then I'd agree game is p2w but it's not like that.
If you think this is p2w every game that has dlc is p2w since all dlc come with something nice that can't be obtained in base games, especially an mmorpg where the most common sort of dlc are new raids/area that drops new gear
I disagree with everyone who says this is p2w because there are people who buy this content and can't complete it so they paid money, wheres their W?
EDIT - it gives you less regen so it's not 100% stronger @ your first point
Ofc you need to work for it. But you need to spend money in the first step. Players without spending money would never get it.
And where is the work at learning a juwelry trait? Hit "research" on a random Ring and wait an hour? Idk research time.
If zenimax now release a Chapter where you get a weapons wich deals 10k Oblivion damage on every light attack. But to get this weapon we first need to kill one easy peasy world boss. This is not p2w cause you need to "work" for it?
I know this is overtuned example but it shows how stupid this "you still need to work for it" Argument is.
There's a simple question to be asked. Do you buy the content, or the rewards? If you're buying the rewards (the content isn't engaging, or is a trivial step), then you can look into the potential of P2W. If you're paying for the content, that's not Pay to Win.
Let's put this in concrete terms using Horns of the Reach. If you think the purpose of buying Horns of the Reach is to get Earthgore, and everything between the purchase and getting the helm is simply fluff, then you could make the argument that it's P2W. (I'll come back to this.) If you look at the content in Horns, Falkreath and Bloodroot Forge, as the reason to buy the DLC, then it's not P2W.
So, the thing about Horns (and most of the content, including things like vMA and vAS), is that the content itself is engaging. Maelstrom weapons are there as a carrot to get you into the content if you're on the fence, but the real showcase is the content itself. You don't plop down 1500 crowns for Earthgore, you're buying two dungeons with unique mechanics, bosses, and encounters.
In contrast, you have the Fallout 4 creation club items, where you're literally paying 500 credits for a single weapon, added to a specific enemy's inventory. In any meaningful sense, that really is P2W. You're paying for an overtuned weapon, and if the game was multiplayer, that would be pretty problematic.
Now, all of this is somewhat subjective. I'm sure there are some people who really look at vMA as a weapon dispenser and nothing else. However, even with that in mind, you're paying for an entire zone filled with stuff to do, and quests to run, even before you get to vMA, so you're not paying to win, you're buying stuff to do. That's at the core of the basic DLC model.Edited by starkerealm on August 8, 2018 10:58AM0 -
Hibernato✭✭✭@Gnozo
You're right at jewellery traits, something I never wrote because I know this already but since you made it sound like non dlc players can't get asylum weapons, when a non dlc player can still get asylum weapons during eso+ free weeks I assumed you didn't know.
Also its jewellery or jewelry depending if you want to use UK or US spelling, didn't mention it the first time incase it was a typo but you did it again so thought I'd let you know.
I still stand by my point that anyone calling dlc p2w is dumb
Edited to remove quotes because phone quoted 100 things
I think it was kinda clear that i was talking about juwelry Transmutation that it can only be aquired with summerset chapter. And you said that this argument is weak cause i can use Transmutation stations without summerset.
And i also saw what you wrote before your edit and you cant learn the traits in an eso plus weekend cause chapters are not part of eso plus.
Oh and sorry about spelling . I dont care if its juwelry or juwellry. Since everyone knows what i mean its not really important. Also english is not my native language.
I don't think 2.4kish (I can't remember how much each trait gives) stam instead of 2.4k hp is p2w, yes one will have more damage but the other will be tankier. The one with more health can build fury stacks safer to get their damage quicker? So your dueling point is still weak. Robust rings =/= auto win.
Yes i was wrong summerset is the only thing not included in eso+, the other chapter morrowind is
I love how you say you don't care about spelling then use "english is not my native language" to try defend yourself when everything else you're saying is fine so obviously shows you care.
It's impossible to have a civilised argument with someone so ignorant that they can't accept they are wrong + ignore they're wrong (when I mentioned asylum weapons) and make excuses for their mistakes when advice is offered (native language)
On purple each juwelry gives you 840 stamina. This is 2520 in general. Giving you more damage and more healing and even more sustain since you have a higher stampool to throw skills out.
This is a big advantage over healthy rings. Every competetive pvp player knows it.
I can give more examples. I want to run bone pirate + advancing yokeda on my stamsorc. And i want to run medium armor. For this i need to have at least 1 healthy juwelry otherwise i wont get 5 medium armor on Body. With summerset i can get full robust.
Also i cant get triune trait on for example bone pirate and yokeda. Triune is really strong because of the max magicka for my utility skills.
You can say a lot. Still Access to Juwelry Crafting makes your build stronger then the same build without juwelry crafting.
Someone running healthy jewellery can run max stam +stam regen food instead of food that gives health but i guess that's blasphemy
Most stam builds using Dubios. Giving max health, max stam and stam recovery.
Why and what food would you use on healthy juwelry?
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Recipe:+Lava+Foot+Soup-And-Saltrice
This is giving you 4500 stam and 460 recovery.
Dubios: 3200 stam, 320 stam rec and 3500 health.
Healthy juwelry + Lava Foot Soup:
4500 Stam
460 Recovery
3x 935 health = 2805 Health
Robust Juwelry + Dubios:
3200 + 3x 840 stam = 5720 stam
3500 Health
320 Stam rec
I dont know if i did math correctly tbh. Did it fast in my work break.
Wouldn't call extra 1.2k max stam extra 700hp and 140 less regen p2w
It gives you a stronger build. Ans thats my pain point.
You cant deny it. The build is stronger when you pay money. Thats the definition of p2w.
Paying real money to get access to things that make your euipment stronger than players who dont payed.
I disagree since you have to play content, if it was like you buy some crowns, enter the crown store and boom your builds automatically stronger then I'd agree game is p2w but it's not like that.
If you think this is p2w every game that has dlc is p2w since all dlc come with something nice that can't be obtained in base games, especially an mmorpg where the most common sort of dlc are new raids/area that drops new gear
I disagree with everyone who says this is p2w because there are people who buy this content and can't complete it so they paid money, wheres their W?
EDIT - it gives you less regen so it's not 100% stronger @ your first point
Ofc you need to work for it. But you need to spend money in the first step. Players without spending money would never get it.
And where is the work at learning a juwelry trait? Hit "research" on a random Ring and wait an hour? Idk research time.
If zenimax now release a Chapter where you get a weapons wich deals 10k Oblivion damage on every light attack. But to get this weapon we first need to kill one easy peasy world boss. This is not p2w cause you need to "work" for it?
I know this is overtuned example but it shows how stupid this "you still need to work for it" Argument is.
You need to earn 150 crystals, unless you know a way to transmute for free?
Your example is a good example tbh, it's made me realise its a bit of both of what we believe p2w is. I think P2w in this game, is something that is easily obtained (put behind some easy quest for example) , makes it near impossible for your opponent be it an enemy player or npc to defeat you and can only obtained by spending crowns. This 10k oblivion damage weapon would be p2w in pvp since you'd 1-3 hit everyone who isn't a tank. Jewellery crafting isn't p2w because just because of the small stat difference we found out earlier doesn't mean you're gonna automatically win but yes jewellery crafting makes a build stronger.
I believe there's nothing p2w in eso
Edited main paragraph
Sure the "pay to win" Statement doesnt involve that you win 100% with this. Its kinda irritating.
For me its more like pay to have an advantage. Some skilled players will still kill players who got 0 exp at class and build while wearing the best in slot gear where the skilled player only have average gear.
But its still. If you buy Summerset you CAN get or make better gear then players without Summerset. Even tho the difference isnt this huge.
Paying money = stronger Builds.
I agree, I won't class it as p2w but paying for eso+/chapters/dlc does give a player the option to make stronger builds than someone who has only paid for the base game. For stam dd in pve the best set ups consist of Relequen/advancing yokeda/ravager and none of them are possible without summerset (cloud rest and trait changing jewellery) . Its just zos greed not letting jewellery crafting be base game.. Just like they did BG with morrowind until they made it base game this yearEdited by Hibernato on August 8, 2018 11:13AM0 -
meatboll✭if you played Chinese MMO then the answer is clear, you pay the money to get better gear and if you managed to become their biggest client they will send you a GM to serve you.1
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Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »
There's a simple question to be asked. Do you buy the content, or the rewards? If you're buying the rewards (the content isn't engaging, or is a trivial step), then you can look into the potential of P2W. If you're paying for the content, that's not Pay to Win.
The thing is, from the non-paying player's point of view it is absolutely irrelevant if the other player payed for the content or the better gear, when the end result (better gear) is exactly the same. So i really don't understand those "paying directly for better gear is P2W, paying indirectly for it is not" arguments.
Same goes for "DLC/expansions can never be P2W because then all MMOs were P2W" because it could simpy mean that all MMOs have P2W aspects.
The most relevant point is how big the advantage of the "paying folk" is over the non-paying players. In ESO the advantage is relatively small, but still, a P2W tendency is there and imo there is nothing wrong with naming it that way.1 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Elwendryll wrote: »Upgrade your weapon in a +9 version with 5 times the damage of the regular version, with a 100% chance to break if you don't use a cash shop item that guarantees the upgrade : Aeria Games. Pay-to-win.
This. Some of these people have clearly never seen p2w.
Game where you have to enchant your gear to +9 to even manage, but it's literally impossible to do without cash shop "enchanting catalysts"?
Open-world pvp game where people can loot that +9 gear off your body unless you buy cash shop "insurance"?
Open-world pvp game where that mount you got & upgraded from the cash shop is 20% faster than the ones obtainable in game?
Yeah, those are p2w. (and yeah, the vast majority of them are open-world pvp games, since the need to pay in order to win - or even survive - is a big push to get people to pay.)
A game having an expansion ("omg, I don't have access to Northrend, levels 71-80, and Death Knights unless I buy Wrath of the Lich King! Pay to win!") is not p2w, or every game ever made is p2w and the term loses all meaning.
(also, Crown Store Gifting takes the game further away from potential "p2w" because it means that people can obtain cash-shop items for in-game gold.)3 -
Vandellia✭✭✭Okay lets clarify things a bit with some clear statements that can used to further define PTW
1. Pay wall
a. This is content restricted to/by purchase. In ESO DLC is paywall content this may or may not give purchasers a benefit or advantage that non payers do not recieve.
2. QOL (quality of life)
a. Things that effect player and have no impact on the ability to play the game if you don't buy/have them.
b. items that can be got/made in game but can also be bought with cash
prime examples of QOL items are cosmetics/ housing/mounts/bankers/
QOL items may make reduce some time spent doing things but it does not impact game play/endgame/ skills in any way at all
Basic understanding statement---- In game gold (money) Is not restricted to any kind of restriction beyond your willingness to grind how ever you chose to. In game cash can be gotten by anyone willing to work for it .
Pay to win defining rules
1 Item MUST be only available thru real money transaction and can not be obtainable in game any other way.
2 The item MUST give a large/unfair advantage to the player who purchases it.
So in general ESO is not a pay to win game, yes paying for content and access to paywall/gated content gives players a benefit it is not a ultimate "i win" button you dont need to buy the content if you are willing to work to get what you want or need it overall is just a lot more time consuming
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PrinceDamien✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »A game having an expansion ("omg, I don't have access to Northrend, levels 71-80, and Death Knights unless I buy Wrath of the Lich King! Pay to win!") is not p2w, or every game ever made is p2w and the term loses all meaning.
It's sad that expansions/dlc's are considered P2W these days.0 -
Mattock_Romulus✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Mattock_Romulus wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Mattock_Romulus wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Mattock_Romulus wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Mattock_Romulus wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Mattock_Romulus wrote: »Mattock_Romulus wrote: »Say for example, the meta is being a vampire for regen and damage resistance and escape via mist form.
Now if say you could buy a vampire bite in the crown store that would be pay to win.
@Mattock_Romulus
Incorrect. If vampire was only available vid the crown store or if it was a better version than what was available in game the yiu could call it P2W. As it is a vampire bite in game is very easy to obtain.
Sure. You can define it that way. For me pay to win is paying money for items or power without playing the game. The OP asked us what we thought pay to win is. That's my definition. My opinion.
Did you get your definition from an official source or is everyone just pulling their definitions out of their arses?
Because there are "official sources," for industry analysis. Right. And, for reference, I'm building off of years of looking at the industry, and the decisions made by various developers.
Thanks just wanted to clarify that the reason you think my opinion is incorrect is because you think your opinion is correct. Gotcha.
No, I think your opinion is incorrect because your "definition," is little more than a misrepresented example, and indicates a lack of understanding of both P2W and how to play ESO. That I also happen to know what I'm talking about is completely incidental to your position.
Here are sources that support my definition:
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" (p2w) games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay."
- Wikipedia
"Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary
"When money provides an objectively better experience when playing, meaning that if the purchasable content creates a noticeable distinction between the haves and the have-nots.
“Better Experience” includes in game advantages, stronger in game gear or anything that makes the paying players stand above the free players.
This is especially a major deal in games with competitions or PVP play."
- Game-Wisdom
You can find an article on the subject here: https://allods.my.com/forum/index.php?page=Thread&postID=72663
For reference, i have been in the industry for the better part of 17 years. I have played ESO since beta.
Technically, one source. As the bulk of that is copied verbatim from the post you linked. In 17 years, I would have hoped you'd be able to quickly, and efficiently, articulate your own positions regarding P2W, rather than simply regurgitating a forum post from two years ago, while engaging in borderline plagiarism. (I say, "borderline," because, while you did cite the original post, you attempted to present the text as if these were multiple, independent, sources.) If you'd wrapped the entire mess in quote tags, it would have been no big deal, but as written, not so much.
For example, here are some of my thoughts on plagiarism.
The definitions provided are fine. They're not your definition, but that's academic at the moment. More than that, your vampire example does not fit them.
Buying a bite from the store is not substantially faster than obtaining a bite from another player, or being in the right place, at the right time, to obtain a natural infection. As a result, normal players do in fact, have access to that advantage without extensive grinding.
More than that, Vampirism isn't, really, an upgrade. Yes, depending on who you're interacting with, you may be left with the impression that Vampirism will make you more powerful. That's not entirely true. It can be useful, if applied correctly, however far more often, the game of internet telephone reduces it down to, "vampires are meta!" without a critical thought, or any idea how to apply it to a build.
The Game-Wisdom definition is somewhat dubious, because it's excessively broad. Following that definition to the letter would make normal content expansions Pay to Win, simply for the sake of them being added. For example, that would classify Vvardenfell as Pay to Win, because it provides an improved and refined play experience, over content outside of that zone, with a similar argument for Clockwork City owing, exclusively, to the unique aesthetics. Arguing that those elements are pay to win is farcical. The intent is sound, but the test, as written, is unusable.
Were Battlegrounds Pay to Win when they were introduced, because they were paywalled and provided a superior small scale PvP experience? Game Wisdom's definition says yes.Mattock_Romulus wrote: »So, by your definition if Zos sells the best gear in the store which would make a character very likely to win in pvp etc., then it's not pay to win so long as there is a chance, however small, that someone with less means could obtain the item in game.
Cool, awesome. I hope i can buy VMA weapons in the store at some point so i don't have to play the content.
If you're hoping a vMA bow will be your key to victory in PvP... I've got some bad news for you. The Destro staves are alright, but you'd be far better off with a Perfected Asylum staff for PvP.
Now, if ZOS did choose to start selling endgame gear in the store, then sure, accusing them of P2W would be entirely reasonable. But that's a hypothetical that hasn't occurred, and almost certainly won't.
As a developer you should be entirely familiar with the idea that some players will gleefully classify everything and anything behind a paywall as P2W if they want it. I mean, these boards have had people calling the Frostcaster motif Pay to Win. That Game-Wisdom definition sounds suspiciously like an attempt to justify those arguments.
So, no, if you have a position that isn't based in hypotheticals, or your own definition, I'd invite you to share it. Though, at this point, I'll admit, it would be a little suspect.
Regarding Plagiarism. I never once posted anything from the article I cited as being something I wrote myself. I clearly referenced the article and included quotes from that articles sources. Plagiarism is writing something and passing it off as your own writing. That was not the case. I do not appreciate being called a liar just because you do not agree with my point of view.
You, literally, copy and pasted the post, committing the first paragraph, then cited the source as "an article." That's plagiarism.
Wrong. I referenced the quotes from that article & cited the article as the source.
You dispute that the post in question consisted primarily of the exact same text that you posted, and attempted to claim as your own research?
Because that's plagiarism.Mattock_Romulus wrote: »Good Lord man. If you cannot put forth a convincing argument for your supposition than just give up. Attacking my character and reaching to accuse me of plagiarism is really sad.
No, I'm accusing you of copying "your" collection of Pay to Win definitions from a forum post in 2016, which includes the exact same quotes, in the exact same order.Mattock_Romulus wrote: »For reference: Plagiarism is passing off writing from someone else as your own. This is remedial English.
It is, but you're being reductive. You see, Plagiarism isn't just taking someone's writing. It's taking their intellectual work and passing it off as your own. After all, if it was only writing, you couldn't plagiarize art, or films, or music, or academic research. But, you can, and people do.
You can find the full definition if you sniff around.
And, in this case, credit goes to Mr. "Quinz" of the Allods Online boards. He compiled the text you copied, right down to the typographic elements. That was his work, not yours. (Or, "her's," if their profile pic is of someone else.)Mattock_Romulus wrote: »I simply posted quotes from an article and cited the source of the quotes.
No, you posted, a quote of quotes, without proper attribution. Instead of saying something to the effect of, "oh, hey, Quinz compiled a list of definitions," it was, "here's a few of my definitions of P2W, and oh, hey, here's an 'article' with more info." That's not proper attribution. It's plagiarism.
You didn't come up with this list. You didn't pick those quotes. You simply found someone else and copied their work. Trust me, I've seen enough of this from college freshmen.Mattock_Romulus wrote: »So, you made your assertion, that paying for weapons and/or skill lines to have power over someone else is not pay to win. I disagree.
I never said that. In fact, what I said was that gear would (probably) be pay to win, but it's not for sale, so this at best a hypothetical argument.Mattock_Romulus wrote: »You retort that I am just flat out wrong.
It's not so much that you're flat out wrong, as that your arguments have consisted of a misunderstanding of game mechanics, which, while understandable, doesn't really do you much credit, and argument that amounts to, "if wishes were horses, I'd be right about one thing." Well, they're not, and you're not.
ZOS is not selling gear in the store. So, crying about how that would be pay to win is irrelevant.Mattock_Romulus wrote: »You support "your" argument by asserting that you simply watched developers over the years and you feel strongly that you are right.
No, I support it by having a degree in media analysis, and years of examining the industry from an analytical perspective, bolstered by a CIS degree. So, yeah, I kinda understand what I'm talking about. Which makes one of us.Mattock_Romulus wrote: »When you run out of arguments you make personal attacks by accusing me of theft.
Then, maybe you shouldn't have gone with the control C/V route. Or, you know, simply attributed the entire quote block to Quinz in the first place.
That's the irony here. If you'd gone the route of saying, "hey, here's some stuff from this guy you don't know, I'd still have poked you on the substance a bit, but it wouldn't be, "hey, you stole this thing."Mattock_Romulus wrote: »If you are out of actual arguments I will accept victory now. Thanks.
Victory? Really. Yeah, you might have had a better shot at that if you'd demonstrated an understanding of Pay to Win systems. An understanding of how The Elder Scrolls Online works. Basic familiarity with the contents of the Crown Store. And some communication skills.
Now, I'll give you the same advice I gave the poor kid who posted the opening of their novel in my inbox last year. You're lucky. You're lucky because you got caught here, where the stakes are relatively low. You get caught pulling this crap in your day job (assuming you're actually in the industry), or on that indy title you're hoping to sneak onto Steam? That's your career, and possibly a nasty lawsuit. Don't do it.
Sing along, "write it in your words."
You sir are a liar.
You can avoid plagiarism by using quotes and citing the source, which is exactly what i did.
I never used the article as if it was my own words, period.
Since you have resorted to violating the terms of conduct on this forum by attacking me personally, i have nothing more to discuss with you.
If you cannot have a civil discourse without lying and misrepresenting the truth then that shows thetype of reprehensible person you are. Good day sir.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PrinceDamien wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »A game having an expansion ("omg, I don't have access to Northrend, levels 71-80, and Death Knights unless I buy Wrath of the Lich King! Pay to win!") is not p2w, or every game ever made is p2w and the term loses all meaning.
It's sad that expansions/dlc's are considered P2W these days.
I don't know if I'd call it sad. People see something they want, but don't want to work for (or pay for, in the case of content.) They understand that, "P2W" is a pejorative term. So, they'll attack that thing as, "P2W," because they want it, but they don't want to spend money on it.
It's sort of a," when all you have is a hammer," kind of situation.
I guess that is kinda sad, but the people who push that are being intellectually dishonest, so maybe it all washes out in the end?0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭When you get an advantage whether that be sets, crafting etc. by paying money.
So yeah dlc is p2w.
Jewellery crafting is p2w.
Someone who has bought all dlc are has access to stronger builds and sets because of it it technically p2w. Because they have better stats/ more dps better pvp setup because they payed extra.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »When you get an advantage whether that be sets, crafting etc. by paying money.
So yeah dlc is p2w.
Jewellery crafting is p2w.
Someone who has bought all dlc are has access to stronger builds and sets because of it it technically p2w. Because they have better stats/ more dps better pvp setup because they payed extra.
*facepalms*1 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »When you get an advantage whether that be sets, crafting etc. by paying money.
So yeah dlc is p2w.
Jewellery crafting is p2w.
Someone who has bought all dlc are has access to stronger builds and sets because of it it technically p2w. Because they have better stats/ more dps better pvp setup because they payed extra.
*facepalms*
Tbh, P2w has multiple meanings to people so he is right2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »When you get an advantage whether that be sets, crafting etc. by paying money.
So yeah dlc is p2w.
Jewellery crafting is p2w.
Someone who has bought all dlc are has access to stronger builds and sets because of it it technically p2w. Because they have better stats/ more dps better pvp setup because they payed extra.
*facepalms*
Tbh, P2w has multiple meanings to people so he is right
Or, at the very least, not wrong.0 -
Jamdarius✭✭✭✭✭For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w
For me, eso is heavily p2w.
Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.
But just cause somebody has vMA weapons doesn't equal he (or she) is a better player... I have acces to vMA did it, and I am not even using these weapons... Cause I preffer to run 5-5-2 on my mag DK and all other toons I have and for your info, I do run BSW + Skoria + Sun set( all in basic game) and do 34k+ DPS on bosses by doing what I want and wearing what I want, vMA gives you maybe 1-3k DPS advantage over other players, it isn't rly that much and ppl overreact to it. As for asylum weapons, stamina types like 2h and Bow can give you advantage in specific situations but again you gotta be skilled to create that situation yourself. And with the gift system you can get Orsinium for ~250k right now from buying it from other players... So you cannot say it is P2W, it is grind 2 win right now. jewelry having bad trait when dropped, farm better trait or keep in mind you can buy services of master crafters in case of crafted rings - simply join a guild where you can get a discount for being a guildie not hard to find... The only OP advantage ESO+ have over normal player is craftbag but smart players know how to use free ESO+ when it is given and stockpile their mats so their craftbag is full of goodies, also you can keep your mats in the obtainable storage coffers in housing - u can get them for writ vouchers no matter what lvl u are.Edited by Jamdarius on August 8, 2018 11:10PM0 -
Mattock_Romulus✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »When you get an advantage whether that be sets, crafting etc. by paying money.
So yeah dlc is p2w.
Jewellery crafting is p2w.
Someone who has bought all dlc are has access to stronger builds and sets because of it it technically p2w. Because they have better stats/ more dps better pvp setup because they payed extra.
*facepalms*
Tbh, P2w has multiple meanings to people so he is right
I agree. Pay-to-Win is very subjective. The meaning has evolved over the years as monetization methods of games adapts to new market conditions.0 -
Runs✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pay to Win is when I'm in my ERP guild and having a good go with the feminine players and then this guy walks in...
How can I compete with that? That sexy hood being crown store only puts me at a heavy disadvantage and I end up logging off , alone... again.
Runs| Orc Nightblade • Chim-el Adabal| Dunmer Templar • M'air the Honest| Khajiit Templar
Oddity| Altmer Sorceror • Drizlo| Orc DragonKnight • Lady Ra Gada| Redguard Sorceror
Taste-of-Hist-Sap| Argonian Nightblade • War'den Peace| Khajiit Warden • Little Warden Annie Altmer Warden
Ports with Blood| Breton Templar • Dirty-Old-Man| Dunmer DragonKnight • Eyes-of-the-Sun| Argonian DragonKnight
Bleak Mystique| Nord Warden • Polychronopolous| Imperial Sorceror • Bullcrit| Khajiit Nightblade
PC NA CP 1250+ and still a noob
At Writs End - A place to complete master writs2 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭Enemoriana wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w
For me, eso is heavily p2w.
Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.
But you don't pay for vMA or asylum weapons. You pay for DLC. You pay to play, same as you paid for game. You still need to work for them.
And what is "win" part in wardens? It's all about knowledge and skill, not just class. If I'll take warden - it won't be better then any other class.
But can i get vma or asylum weapons without the dlc?
Can i get robust fury rings without summerset?
Let me Show you an example:
2x StamDKs dueling. Same setups. Ravager + Fury and Bloodspawn. One without any dlc or chapter. The other one with all of it.
The paying player can get: Robust juwelry giving him more Damage and healing and backbar he can put the normal asylum 2h for more ult gen.
Both players have the same skilllevel. Butthe paying one got more damage/healing die to robust rings and more ult gen with asylum that the non paying player can never ever get without spending money.
No p2w? Really?
You can't get vMA weapon (well, except days of free ESO+). You also can't get anything without buying base game itself, you know? You need to pay for it, so it's "pay-to-win" from the first day! Stupid, yeah?
It would be P2W if you could buy vMA weapon for crowns. But it's not pay-to-win if you get part of the game. It's pay-to-play and play-to-win, absolutely as base game.
Dude what?
Pls tell me exactly how robust fury rings in my example of 2 StamDKs with the same skill level are not an advantage.
I am waiting.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
"Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!"Edited by Xundiin on August 9, 2018 1:05AM#SavePlayer11 -
Mattock_Romulus✭✭✭✭✭Enemoriana wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w
For me, eso is heavily p2w.
Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.
But you don't pay for vMA or asylum weapons. You pay for DLC. You pay to play, same as you paid for game. You still need to work for them.
And what is "win" part in wardens? It's all about knowledge and skill, not just class. If I'll take warden - it won't be better then any other class.
But can i get vma or asylum weapons without the dlc?
Can i get robust fury rings without summerset?
Let me Show you an example:
2x StamDKs dueling. Same setups. Ravager + Fury and Bloodspawn. One without any dlc or chapter. The other one with all of it.
The paying player can get: Robust juwelry giving him more Damage and healing and backbar he can put the normal asylum 2h for more ult gen.
Both players have the same skilllevel. Butthe paying one got more damage/healing die to robust rings and more ult gen with asylum that the non paying player can never ever get without spending money.
No p2w? Really?
You can't get vMA weapon (well, except days of free ESO+). You also can't get anything without buying base game itself, you know? You need to pay for it, so it's "pay-to-win" from the first day! Stupid, yeah?
It would be P2W if you could buy vMA weapon for crowns. But it's not pay-to-win if you get part of the game. It's pay-to-play and play-to-win, absolutely as base game.
Dude what?
Pls tell me exactly how robust fury rings in my example of 2 StamDKs with the same skill level are not an advantage.
I am waiting.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
"Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!"
Whoa bro. Please cite your source. There are people around here who will have a stroke and cite you for plagiarism...0 -
Cously✭✭✭✭✭
✭What is win?
PVP, PVE leaderboards.
ESO stuff is pay to win?
No. Everything that could possibly give an advantage in the store can be acquired in game.0 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Enemoriana wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w
For me, eso is heavily p2w.
Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.
But you don't pay for vMA or asylum weapons. You pay for DLC. You pay to play, same as you paid for game. You still need to work for them.
And what is "win" part in wardens? It's all about knowledge and skill, not just class. If I'll take warden - it won't be better then any other class.
But can i get vma or asylum weapons without the dlc?
Can i get robust fury rings without summerset?
Let me Show you an example:
2x StamDKs dueling. Same setups. Ravager + Fury and Bloodspawn. One without any dlc or chapter. The other one with all of it.
The paying player can get: Robust juwelry giving him more Damage and healing and backbar he can put the normal asylum 2h for more ult gen.
Both players have the same skilllevel. Butthe paying one got more damage/healing die to robust rings and more ult gen with asylum that the non paying player can never ever get without spending money.
No p2w? Really?
You can't get vMA weapon (well, except days of free ESO+). You also can't get anything without buying base game itself, you know? You need to pay for it, so it's "pay-to-win" from the first day! Stupid, yeah?
It would be P2W if you could buy vMA weapon for crowns. But it's not pay-to-win if you get part of the game. It's pay-to-play and play-to-win, absolutely as base game.
Dude what?
Pls tell me exactly how robust fury rings in my example of 2 StamDKs with the same skill level are not an advantage.
I am waiting.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
"Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!"
Robust Fury/Advancing Yokeda/Ravager/7th Legion and much more are better items.0 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭Enemoriana wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w
For me, eso is heavily p2w.
Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.
But you don't pay for vMA or asylum weapons. You pay for DLC. You pay to play, same as you paid for game. You still need to work for them.
And what is "win" part in wardens? It's all about knowledge and skill, not just class. If I'll take warden - it won't be better then any other class.
But can i get vma or asylum weapons without the dlc?
Can i get robust fury rings without summerset?
Let me Show you an example:
2x StamDKs dueling. Same setups. Ravager + Fury and Bloodspawn. One without any dlc or chapter. The other one with all of it.
The paying player can get: Robust juwelry giving him more Damage and healing and backbar he can put the normal asylum 2h for more ult gen.
Both players have the same skilllevel. Butthe paying one got more damage/healing die to robust rings and more ult gen with asylum that the non paying player can never ever get without spending money.
No p2w? Really?
You can't get vMA weapon (well, except days of free ESO+). You also can't get anything without buying base game itself, you know? You need to pay for it, so it's "pay-to-win" from the first day! Stupid, yeah?
It would be P2W if you could buy vMA weapon for crowns. But it's not pay-to-win if you get part of the game. It's pay-to-play and play-to-win, absolutely as base game.
Dude what?
Pls tell me exactly how robust fury rings in my example of 2 StamDKs with the same skill level are not an advantage.
I am waiting.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
"Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!"
Robust Fury/Advancing Yokeda/Ravager/7th Legion and much more are better items.
You are missing the point so bad that the entire US navy could sail past you and you'd never see em.
You are trying to compare what is considered content updates (yes, you have to buy content to get the stuff said content provides) vs in game store items to gain an advantage. 1 does not equal the other.Robust Fury/Advancing Yokeda/Ravager/7th Legion and much more are better items.
Robust Fury- Warrior's Fury is a Elite Gear Set. Sets pieces can be bought directly from the Elite Gear Vendors using Alliance Points, and are also available via "Rewards for the Worthy" mails by participating in PvP.
Advancing Yokeda-Berserking Warrior: Hel Ra Citadel Location of Hel Ra Citadel this Trial can be found in the South West of Craglorn.
7th Legion-Name: Seventh Legion Brute Type: Overland Location: Bangkorai
Raveger - Where to find Cyrodiil - Where to find
Cyrodiil - Vlastarus Elite Gear Vendor
Cyrodiil - Possible Daily Quest Reward
PvP - Rewards of the Worthy (Armor only)
OMG!!!! SO P2W THAT EVERY SET YOU LISTED IS IN THE BASE GAME!!!! *** ZOS!!!! STOP P2W!!!!
Edited by Xundiin on August 9, 2018 4:54PM#SavePlayer10
