Something needs to be done about this "fake tank" crap

DanteYoda · July 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmzuRXLzqKk

zaria · July 2018

Minyassa wrote: »

I tried to logic out a solution and it really does seem kind of hopeless. The reason people are lying and putting DDs in as tanks or healers is because there are just so dang many DDs that they end up having to wait a thousand years if they are honest. So the only solutions would be to make it more attractive somehow to play tanks and healers, or to change the grouping requirements somehow. The latter would take soooo much messing around to keep it balanced. The former...well, I honestly do not know why there are so many more DDs than tanks or healers. Tanking is so much fun and healing has always struck me as admirable and prestigious because healers in this game tend to kick so much butt *while* they heal. Maybe the game needs to offer tutorials in playing roles to give people a good taste of the fun involved in all of them, so that people who are afraid or reluctant to try other roles can see what they could get out of it.

Back then I did random normals average wait time for DD was 10-15 minutes, enough to do the undaunted delve quest with some margin, hated then I had to wait for delve boss and got in early

Pledge normal is a bit longer, vet pledge shorter.

Think part of the problem now is that we got an generation of players used to fake roles in normals taking it to vet dungeons there this will not work. Not has much problem with it myself.

mikemacon · July 2018

"It's just a normal dungeon! You don't need a tank in a normal dungeon! STFU, skrub!!"

...except that the self-absorbed, self-important fake tank then proceeds to draw aggro and run around like a head with its chicken cut off, dragging the boss out of AOEs and bringing down group DPS.

Yes, yes, yes...we're all duly impressed with your 35k DPS. Yes, you're very special. Your mommy was right.

But you're dragging down group DPS by being a douchewaggon.

I vote to kick fake tanks ALWAYS. And if the vote fails and fake tank has the audacity to request some gear he was farming for and didn't think he should queue like the rest of us deeps, if I happen to have that thing I decon it right then and there in front of him.

mikemacon · July 2018

ALSO, it might be "just a normal dungeon" but you're often running with low-levels who are still learning the game and you're not helping. At all.

Queue as a fake tank all you want with friends and guildies. Do it as a premade group.

But not in a PUG, you self-impressed entitled twits.

</rant>

Malacthulhu · July 2018

I had a poor preforming dps with 12k health on a vet run and gave him some tristat food, he didnt even use it died every 2 seconds. I was tanking and the other dps wanted to kick him I said no bc I dont like booting people and he had enough for both but, each fight was like pulling teeth to get it done in a timely fashion. Hindsight is 20/20 though.

Elwendryll · July 2018

This thread is still going?
It makes me want to respec as a tank and try the group finder.

LordSarevok · July 2018

I run a real tank, and a "fake tank". If I know the dps, and we are going into a harder content area, I take my real tank. If we are going into a easy dungeon/area, I take my fake tank. My sorc runs inner fire and hardened ward. I can half ass dps and tank the mob in one spot. Doesn't matter on most content either. Learning when to bash interrupt, tactical blocking, and positioning are everything as a tank.

Nothing makes me more angry though than running my pure DK tank, all gold Alkosh/Ebon (does almost zero dps) and watching a dps light attack his way through advanced content. With my guild we run most dungeons with just my tank and 3 dps, or just 4 dps. Occasionally you have to PUG though.

We can do something about fake tanks when they make others have a dps check for levels of content. Can't pull over 10k dps? Sorry you can't enter this dungeon.

Bad tank? Can probably still make it through. Bad healer? Vigor, pots, and other self heals/ulti can probably still make it through. Bad dps? You aren't making it.

remilafo · July 2018

Just adapt, makes you stronger in the end. Depending on a quote "Real tank" just means you lake the flexibility to survive.

No Dungeon requires a quote "real tank" infact

- any normal dungeon and trials can be accomplished with a mishmash of whatever really.
- With the exception of a few bosses, almost all veteran dungeon content can be done without a tank, 1 healer and 3 dps are okay. Also often 1 tank and 3 dps is fine also. Infact 4 dps/solo builds like for Vma for example do veteran content just fine.
- Even some trials can be done without a tank like VDSA

The point is, stop complaining and adapt. Or as the internet says GIT GUD

Aragorn79 · July 2018

Just want to share something that's been happening a lot in dungeons and I don't know if it's related. But I have my settings to queue as a DPS all the time on my two main DPS toons. Now many times after entering the dungeon I see the roles symbol on screen and my character is a tank or a healer and no longer a DPS. Is this a bug? I then just say in chat that I am DPS and queued as DPS. I don't know if this is happening to other ppl, but maybe some DPS queue as DPS and get assigned the wrong role in dungeon (?). Ok, just my two cents, because it can be annoying.

DirkRavenclaw · July 2018

remilafo wrote: »

Just adapt, makes you stronger in the end. Depending on a quote "Real tank" just means you lake the flexibility to survive.

No Dungeon requires a quote "real tank" infact

- any normal dungeon and trials can be accomplished with a mishmash of whatever really.
- With the exception of a few bosses, almost all veteran dungeon content can be done without a tank, 1 healer and 3 dps are okay. Also often 1 tank and 3 dps is fine also. Infact 4 dps/solo builds like for Vma for example do veteran content just fine.
- Even some trials can be done without a tank like VDSA

The point is, stop complaining and adapt. Or as the internet says GIT GUD

This isnt the point. Impersonating a Role you arent should be against the TOS. Clear and simple, i just leave and/or vote to kick, simple. I have a Tank and also a Healer if i want i get another Dungeon straight away

LadyNalcarya · July 2018

mikemacon wrote: »

"It's just a normal dungeon! You don't need a tank in a normal dungeon! STFU, skrub!!"

...except that the self-absorbed, self-important fake tank then proceeds to draw aggro and run around like a head with its chicken cut off, dragging the boss out of AOEs and bringing down group DPS.

Yes, yes, yes...we're all duly impressed with your 35k DPS. Yes, you're very special. Your mommy was right.

But you're dragging down group DPS by being a douchewaggon.

I vote to kick fake tanks ALWAYS. And if the vote fails and fake tank has the audacity to request some gear he was farming for and didn't think he should queue like the rest of us deeps, if I happen to have that thing I decon it right then and there in front of him.

True, it's really hard to dps when someone is dragging the boss all over the place. A lot of dps comes from ground dots so if someone kites the boss, they dont affect him.

EölMPK · July 2018

My great issue with PUG's right now are people who doesnt know the dgs mechanics and stand on top of damage circles, and after 1 or 2 wipes dont even try to learn or figure out whats wrong

JimmyJuJu · July 2018

I usually run a templar healer in dungeons and have learned to carry a frost staff to quasi-tank when the main tank is a subpar DPS. I use dressing room and swap into a more sturdy config with health and stam buffs. Ice staff front bar, restro back bar. It works well enough for lower-level vet dungeons. For the harder dungeons, though, (like Scalecaller) you really do need an actual tank.

LordSarevok · July 2018

I also think you would see far fewer "dps" if the content was dps checked. Even with crafted gear a char can pull pretty decent dps if they practice the rotation. Want to run VRoM while just spamming steel tornado till you run out of stamina, then heavy attack to fill stamina and rinse and repeat? Sorry pal.

Maybe a overall check on characters to qualify for harder content. Test tanks positioning, hardiness, survival, interrupts etc. Test healers on keeping test dummies alive, mobs debuffed, and group synergies. Test dps on single target, AoE, and situational awareness.

Kind of like the license tests on Gran Turismo.

remilafo · July 2018

DirkRavenclaw wrote: »

remilafo wrote: »

Just adapt, makes you stronger in the end. Depending on a quote "Real tank" just means you lake the flexibility to survive.

No Dungeon requires a quote "real tank" infact

- any normal dungeon and trials can be accomplished with a mishmash of whatever really.
- With the exception of a few bosses, almost all veteran dungeon content can be done without a tank, 1 healer and 3 dps are okay. Also often 1 tank and 3 dps is fine also. Infact 4 dps/solo builds like for Vma for example do veteran content just fine.
- Even some trials can be done without a tank like VDSA

The point is, stop complaining and adapt. Or as the internet says GIT GUD

remilafo wrote: »

Just adapt, makes you stronger in the end. Depending on a quote "Real tank" just means you lake the flexibility to survive.

No Dungeon requires a quote "real tank" infact

- any normal dungeon and trials can be accomplished with a mishmash of whatever really.
- With the exception of a few bosses, almost all veteran dungeon content can be done without a tank, 1 healer and 3 dps are okay. Also often 1 tank and 3 dps is fine also. Infact 4 dps/solo builds like for Vma for example do veteran content just fine.
- Even some trials can be done without a tank like VDSA

The point is, stop complaining and adapt. Or as the internet says GIT GUD

This isnt the point. Impersonating a Role you arent should be against the TOS. Clear and simple, i just leave and/or vote to kick, simple. I have a Tank and also a Healer if i want i get another Dungeon straight away

It is not against the TOS, don't be silly. If it is please find me the exact line and paste it here i will stand corrected.

You make a fair point BUT there is a caveat, you are assuming what a "Tank" is..... if what you call a "DPS" manages to do the most damage and hence has all the aggro and doesn't die, that is a good enough tank for me.

Guppet · July 2018

phileunderx2 wrote: »

Instead of having to actually physically taunt a boss aggro from bosses should default to whomever is qued as tank. This should quickly end the epidemic of fake tanks.

Ooh that could be great. But you can’t have it just give them aggro, or actual tanking would be too easy.

What you could do is have it so any taunt gives the player who queued as tank aggro. Any taunt from anyone. So the other dps and healer could taunt and force aggro on the tank.

That way if they agree to no tank they don’t need to do it, but if they don’t appreciate the fake tank, they can force him to tank.

This deserves its own topic.

Salvas_Aren · July 2018

mikemacon wrote: »

I vote to kick fake tanks ALWAYS. And if the vote fails and fake tank has the audacity to request some gear he was farming for and didn't think he should queue like the rest of us deeps, if I happen to have that thing I decon it right then and there in front of him.

Even if its a PvE pro who kills each and every enemy there in half the time?

By doing so you make him run that dungeon once more as a fake tank. Doesn't help, right?

Kaymorolis · July 2018

remilafo wrote: »

You make a fair point BUT there is a caveat, you are assuming what a "Tank" is..... if what you call a "DPS" manages to do the most damage and hence has all the aggro and doesn't die, that is a good enough tank for me.

But does he stay alive because of his large health pool and damage mitigation? Probably not. If that tank is only alive because the healer is 100% focused on healing him and doing nothing else, that isn't a tank.

Gnortranermara · July 2018

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

Even if its a PvE pro who kills each and every enemy there in half the time?

By doing so you make him run that dungeon once more as a fake tank. Doesn't help, right?

Yes. Fake tanks from the random activity finder deserve to be kicked 100% of the time. Their self-centered behavior is detrimental to everyone else and it won't stop until players force it to stop by kicking them all. Even if they happen to land into a lucky random group that doesn't need an actual tank, kick them anyway. You don't know what you're going to get with randoms, so they can't know ahead of time is a tank is needed or not, therefore they're rolling the dice with other people's dungeon experience. I will never reward that sort of behavior. Kick, kick, kick. And if the rest of the group won't kick, then I leave. Period. I will not run content with selfish jerks who screw up the experience for other people.

MissBizz · July 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm not sure why people are using the group finder for vet Scalecaller, Ruins of Mazzatun, or any other content that requires effective communication and coordination between all 4 players. The easiest way to deal with the frustration the OP is describing is to que only for instances that will not be a pain to complete if you get a "fake" tank, terrible DPS, or a "healer" who thinks slotting Healing Springs qualifies her.

@Joy_Division I think it's the unfortunate side effect of maybe playing at a weird time when your usual go-tos are offline, selecting "random vet" for the XP... and that bit of punishment for being either ESO+ or buying DLC's.

NewBlacksmurf · July 2018

Solution:
I'm being 100% serious

Steps:
1. Literally remove all classes in the grouping tools and all UI screen selections
2. Literally allow all classes to have HOT in some action similar to how mana REGEN works on staves heavy attack (because everyone will get mana to heal)
3. Tank will keep taunt but changes to be made so their skills all provide DPS but will need to offset defense, etc. so other players have comparable abilities
4. ….see where this is going.....making everyone equal

100. Just make the skills and spells work like Oblivion.....find and use for anyone within resource limits and effectiveness.

POps75p · July 2018

Jeremy wrote: »

DPS classes queuing up as tanks to shorten their wait times has gotten out of hand on this game. 5 out of the last 6 dungeon queues I joined had players who were tanks in name-only.

These players frequently don't taunt, have low HP pools and defenses and sometimes don't even bother initiating fights (they just sit there waiting for other group members to attack). One of them had 12k health and was getting killed in one hit by almost everything. It's gotten so bad I'm just about ready to quit queuing up as my healer as I usually just end up having to change into my tank anyway during the run.

I'm not sure what the best solution here would be. Some basic requirements before you can choose a specified role? A new feature added to the report function that specifically allows players to report players who abuse the system by lying about their role? I don't know. But something needs to be done to discourage this.

to be honest I do this a lot, but it's always not random but specific that i'm farming for specific pieces of equipment. plus most on normal don't need a tank, but their are a few exceptions where one is really needed. plus most can just about be done solo, so tough it up big guy. cry over something that is really a problem

zParallaxz · July 2018

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

Even if its a PvE pro who kills each and every enemy there in half the time?

By doing so you make him run that dungeon once more as a fake tank. Doesn't help, right?

Yes. Fake tanks from the random activity finder deserve to be kicked 100% of the time. Their self-centered behavior is detrimental to everyone else and it won't stop until players force it to stop by kicking them all. Even if they happen to land into a lucky random group that doesn't need an actual tank, kick them anyway. You don't know what you're going to get with randoms, so they can't know ahead of time is a tank is needed or not, therefore they're rolling the dice with other people's dungeon experience. I will never reward that sort of behavior. Kick, kick, kick. And if the rest of the group won't kick, then I leave. Period. I will not run content with selfish jerks who screw up the experience for other people.

Dude ur prob not even cp cap, go run the dungeon with your friends or enjoy the free carry where u have to do little. Your making it way to complicated.

Gnortranermara · July 2018

zParallaxz wrote: »

Dude ur prob not even cp cap, go run the dungeon with your friends or enjoy the free carry where u have to do little. Your making it way to complicated.

Tanks actually tanking is "to" complicated for you? If you queue as tank, then tank or get kicked. There is nothing complicated about it.

zParallaxz · July 2018

Why in the hell do need a tank for any non dlc dungeon. It shows you lack experience, running full dps or maybe one healer is always the best option

Gorilla · July 2018

Instead of being binary, why don't we admit that:

The older dungeons don't need a tank, esp on normal, so who cares

We can kick the imposters out for those that do

Easy.

For the record, I claim tank for my DD all the time provided the dungeon doesn't require anything hard core. My toons are all capable of healing, DD and can taunt if required (although not like a true tank). Have never been unable to complete one of the odler dungeons.

I would not, however, ever consider doing that for vet or newer dungeons.

Gorilla · July 2018

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

I cannot stand the arrogance of fake tyanks in vet dungeons. I don’t appreciate having my DPS cut by up to 60% because I have to use a ton of resources to stay alive on trash mobs. And on bosses my DPS is further cut because I end up getting the aggro nearly every time. I didn’t queue as a tank because I’m not one, so don’t cut in line and have me pull all the aggro because your own DPS sucks!

You fake arrogant *** think your helping us get in a dungeon faster? No, you’re wasting everyone’s time. I don’t just stand around having emote wars while waiting. I’m busy when I’m not in a dungeon.

Completely agree for Vet and newer dungeons.

mikemacon · July 2018

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

mikemacon wrote: »

I vote to kick fake tanks ALWAYS. And if the vote fails and fake tank has the audacity to request some gear he was farming for and didn't think he should queue like the rest of us deeps, if I happen to have that thing I decon it right then and there in front of him.

Even if its a PvE pro who kills each and every enemy there in half the time?

By doing so you make him run that dungeon once more as a fake tank. Doesn't help, right?

Abso-frickin’-lutely I do.

I don’t care that he pulls “mad deeps lulz”.

Because he’s pulling individual high deeps at the cost of group deeps by dragging bosses out of AOEs.

IOW, he’s being a self-absorbed butt sniffer.

So I have no problem at all voting to kick and “making” him queue as a fake tank again. Let the next PUG either put up with his primal dona self or vote to kick him again.

Gnortranermara · July 2018

zParallaxz wrote: »

Why in the hell do need a tank for any non dlc dungeon.

Tanks hold boss aggro, hold them still, chain mobs into AOEs, and debuff boss armor. That's far more beneficial to the group than an extra DPS.

zParallaxz wrote: »

It shows you lack experience

I'm 1000+CP Flawless Conqueror and I've done just about everything in this game. I don't "lack experience". I'm perfectly capable of running with 4 DPS in most content. But my own qualifications (and yours, and anyone else's) are irrelevant because the issue is about RANDOM groups. Since it's random, you don't know what the group needs or doesn't need ahead of time. That's WHY ROLES EXIST. Ignoring those roles is stupid and selfish and anyone doing it deserves to be immediately kicked from the group, period. You're not a special butterfly and you don't have any business ruining someone else's dungeon experience because you think you're so great you don't need proper roles in a random group.

zParallaxz wrote: »

running full dps or maybe one healer is always the best option

Wrong. Running 1 tank and 3 DPS (at least one with off-heals) is the superior group composition in all 4-man content.

Gnortranermara · July 2018

Gorilla wrote: »

and can taunt if required

That's the key: if you want to queue as something other than what you really are, be prepared to perform the role you queued for if the group needs it. I've got no beef with that. I do the same as a DPS/healer.