Something needs to be done about this "fake tank" crap

Swen_von_Walhallion

VaranisArano wrote: »

Once again...

Inner fire
Ice Staff Heavy Attack with Trifocus Passive
Tormentor set with a charge ability

There are more taunts than Puncture. There are more ways to tank than One Hand and Shield.

But as with all "role requirements" solutions, none of this really solves the issue of people equipping whatever they need to get through groupfinder, then taking it off again.

well its true, but no others taunt have major fracture and major breach debuff, which help with DPS a lot, when you play tank and dont use puncture you gimping your whole group and for me personaly you have no idea what is to be tank in ESO

Greevir

Y'all need Jesus.

Glurin

Greevir wrote: »

Y'all need Jesus.

But he's a healer, not a tank. Although he keeps announcing that he's gonna switch to DPS at some point in the future, but he won't tell anybody when.

Charliff1966

Glurin wrote: »

Greevir wrote: »

Y'all need Jesus.

But he's a healer, not a tank. Although he keeps announcing that he's gonna switch to DPS at some point in the future, but he won't tell anybody when.

Will be bugged when it releases or overpowered and the world would be gone in an instant.

Seri

Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Once again...

Inner fire
Ice Staff Heavy Attack with Trifocus Passive
Tormentor set with a charge ability

There are more taunts than Puncture. There are more ways to tank than One Hand and Shield.

But as with all "role requirements" solutions, none of this really solves the issue of people equipping whatever they need to get through groupfinder, then taking it off again.

well its true, but no others taunt have major fracture and major breach debuff, which help with DPS a lot, when you play tank and dont use puncture you gimping your whole group and for me personaly you have no idea what is to be tank in ESO

That depends on the group. Ideally a healer will have Ele Drain too (unless the healer is a 'I'm supposed to heal things, so you run it' type), which applies Major Breach as well - in which case, if you have 2x mag DD, the Major Fracture debuff isn't beneficial. Similarly, there are other sources of Breach. I agree that Puncture is a nice easy source of the debuff though.

ATomiX96

Its hard to check for fake tanks, i mean you can run a 25k hp tank and do perfectly fine. And if they would check for taunts or such things on the bar the "fake tank" could just pop it on for the sake of it and once in dungeon put if off again.
Dungeon Finder will always be messy no matter what ZOS decides to do and should only be used as a last resort, or if you are farming stuff on normal.

Glurin

Hey, I say if they can do the job with no taunt then more power to them. The problem isn't so much gear or what you put on your bar as it is the people who simply can't, or worse, won't do the job.

ookami007

I use the Dressing Room addon for my toons. I have PvP build, a DPS build and a Tank build. Dressing room is nice because not only does it switch the armor, but it also switches both skill bars.

I have my attributes either all or mostly health and compensate for full stam or full magicka food for dps and then full health food for tanking. I also have each gear set spec'ed for it's respective role and my champion points are middle of the road but there's alot of overlap and since they're front loaded, it's not as bad.

If I'm DPSing a DLC dungeon or a trial, I'll respec my attributes and then respec back later.

It's a bit of work, but I when I queue for a role... I make sure I can DO the role.

mikemacon

VaranisArano wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Sygil05 wrote: »

I've resolved myself to this being a necessary evil based on the way the activity finder works. Playing a tank is the hardest role in the game, and a lack of tanks is always going to be an issue. I've had several times where I've been in a group of 3 (1 heals + 2 DPS) and sat in queue for 30+ minutes with no luck. Realistically, a tank isn't necessary for a lot of the veteran dungeons, so one of us just changes the role and we're able to get through the content.

The problem with trying to fix this is that any fix is going to most likely result in even longer queue times.

Playing a tank in 4 man dungeons is not the hardest role in the game. I guess it can be for someone who has never tanked.

It has been brought up before in threads like this that tanks pretty much avoid queueing in GF as a tank because of the chance they will get a group with low dps. It is better for them to queue up on their DD instead so they can carry a low damage group.

I have yet to have anyone complain I queued as a tank on a light armor dps character. Often at the end of the dungeon they express they are pleased with the group.

I will queue up to tank on a DPS character, but I will slot a taunt.

If you held boss aggro, Ive got no problem with you tanking on a DPS character. If you don't, and the boss aggros on my DD or healer, I've got a problem with you not doing your job and expecting me to do your job for you.

The fact that you slot a taunt makes you a vastly more effective than the 2H/Bow fake tank with 500-billion-K DPS prima dona who is quite impressed with himself and didn’t think he should wait in the DD queue with the other plebes, won’t grab aggro, but when he accidentally does get it then screams and runs in circles dragging the boss out of AOEs and hurting group DPS.

newtinmpls

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you held boss aggro, Ive got no problem with you tanking on a DPS character. If you don't, and the boss aggros on my DD or healer, I've got a problem with you not doing your job and expecting me to do your job for you.

^^^Quoted for truth

newtinmpls

ATomiX96 wrote: »

Its hard to check for fake tanks.

Well, when I'm the healer, and the boss is chasing ME, then I start asking if the tank has a taunt.

If said tank starts whining about how it shouldn't be needed - well it's too late for that argument.

VilniusNastavnik

Experienced tank here.

I have:
1 dk tank
1 warden healer tank hybrid
1 mag sorc off tank. My shields take more damage than most tanks health.

I run my two actual tanks on non pug 4 mans.

I run my sorc in randn pugs. Why? Fake dps queuing as dps. If I can tank the boss with one bar and dps with the other and still pull more than 50% dps you have no right to complain.

starkerealm

Danksta wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

They're not fake, just bad

I agree though, good tanks are hard to come by, and I hate fake tanks.

And tanks are an absolute must for Scalecaller

I once had an actual fake DPS. We had two healers wearing worm with one stam DPS...

I've seen that. Heavy armor, "DPS" using a frost staff and Sword and Board, queued in all three rolls, but somehow DPS popped first.

josiahva

I honestly couldn't care less if someone queues as a tank if they are a DD, as long as they actually perform the role they queued for reasonably. If you can do 35k DPS while holding the boss still and dragging in ads, all the more power to you. The problem starts when someone queues as a a different role then goes off and just doesn't perform the role they queued for. At this point, I simply use the vote-to-kick button. If the votes fails, I leave and go do something else. Problem solved.

Hal_Moore

I think something should be done about fake damage dealers. As a tank I can say there is far more fake damage dealers out there. like if you can't pull at least 40k dps you shouldn't be allowed to que as a fake damage dealer.

simple fix: prevent fake damage dealers from queuing and then they will be forced to be tanks. both problems solved.

LordSarevok

It's very easy to complain about the fake tanks in this game, but remember one thing, damage dealers probably out number pure tanks/healers by a wide margin. Want to know why? What is the basic principle of this game, to kill mobs and or complete quests (usually requires killing)? Try playing a pure trials tank or healer in a solo manner. I's not fun. When I am collecting resource nodes on my tank, I avoid even the skeevers because its a long fight. I can't solo quest without having to fully change gear/CP to be able to reasonably complete them. On the other hand I can jump on my mag sorc and steamroll pretty much anything. I love my tank, and it is my main, but outside of challenging trials/dlc dungeons, he is u.s.e.l.e.s.s.

There are a shortage of tanks/healers because we suck at 90% of the game. Dps characters can either solo or group dps 90% of the game. That's why you see such an overwhelming amount of the population who are dps, and why it takes forever to queue as one. That's why they cheat the system.

Maybe we would see more support classes if they changed how our skills work? Like maybe as a tank our aggro builds a dot that gets stronger to kill mobs, or reflective damage that scales up the longer you get beat on? What if a healer targets a mob with a heal, make it do damage, or a similar reflect system? And if you are worried about end game activities being easier in that case, raise the hp of the mobs, or make them reflect immune.

I guess what I am saying is you are trying to put a band-aid on a slashed artery. The root problem lies with the fact that we see a shortage of support characters due to them being useless most of the time. If they had more usefulness we would see the player population rise and queue times would lower quite a bit for dps chars, reducing the "fake" issues by quite a bit.

josiahva

LordSarevok wrote: »

It's very easy to complain about the fake tanks in this game, but remember one thing, damage dealers probably out number pure tanks/healers by a wide margin. Want to know why? What is the basic principle of this game, to kill mobs and or complete quests (usually requires killing)? Try playing a pure trials tank or healer in a solo manner. I's not fun. When I am collecting resource nodes on my tank, I avoid even the skeevers because its a long fight. I can't solo quest without having to fully change gear/CP to be able to reasonably complete them. On the other hand I can jump on my mag sorc and steamroll pretty much anything. I love my tank, and it is my main, but outside of challenging trials/dlc dungeons, he is u.s.e.l.e.s.s.

There are a shortage of tanks/healers because we suck at 90% of the game. Dps characters can either solo or group dps 90% of the game. That's why you see such an overwhelming amount of the population who are dps, and why it takes forever to queue as one. That's why they cheat the system.

Maybe we would see more support classes if they changed how our skills work? Like maybe as a tank our aggro builds a dot that gets stronger to kill mobs, or reflective damage that scales up the longer you get beat on? What if a healer targets a mob with a heal, make it do damage, or a similar reflect system? And if you are worried about end game activities being easier in that case, raise the hp of the mobs, or make them reflect immune.

I guess what I am saying is you are trying to put a band-aid on a slashed artery. The root problem lies with the fact that we see a shortage of support characters due to them being useless most of the time. If they had more usefulness we would see the player population rise and queue times would lower quite a bit for dps chars, reducing the "fake" issues by quite a bit.

There would be more tanks if there were other ways to tank. I have what I call a beserker tank...who holds aggro through sheer damage output...or at least early damage output. I aggro a mob and sustain 20k+ DPS(single target, more for a group obviously) this type of aggro-holding will only last as long as the average taunt, so its heavily dependent on the DPS doing more damage to finish off the mob quickly before I actually have to use a taunt(though it has the advantage of being able to hold aggro in a fake-DPS situation with only a few taunts). This particular type of tank is good for vet DLC dungeons and easier content...but does not have the health needed for vet DLC dungeons and trials...but the beserker tank can also solo-quest without any issue. The problem is that there is no support for this type of tank from ZOS. The same holds true for Tank/Healer hybrids...I have one of those as well, but due to lack of any support both these types of tanks require quite a bit of skill to play successfully, and they still struggle in certain places, but they add a certain amount of versatility...unfortunately, with ZOS stopping multi-role queuing, this type of tank has an even harder time than before...all because people whine endlessly about fake tanks instead of just kicking them for not doing their role.

Salvas_Aren

DirkRavenclaw wrote: »

This isnt the point. Impersonating a Role you arent should be against the TOS. Clear and simple, i just leave and/or vote to kick, simple. I have a Tank and also a Healer if i want i get another Dungeon straight away

Should be means it is not. Reporting an action against TOS is your right, reporting an action against what you wish to be forbidden is a wrongful report. Wrongful reports can lead to punishment by ZOS. What then? Tell them, that suspending you impacts your overall gaming exp?

mikemacon wrote: »

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

mikemacon wrote: »

I vote to kick fake tanks ALWAYS. And if the vote fails and fake tank has the audacity to request some gear he was farming for and didn't think he should queue like the rest of us deeps, if I happen to have that thing I decon it right then and there in front of him.

Even if its a PvE pro who kills each and every enemy there in half the time?

By doing so you make him run that dungeon once more as a fake tank. Doesn't help, right?

Abso-frickin’-lutely I do.

I don’t care that he pulls “mad deeps lulz”.

Because he’s pulling individual high deeps at the cost of group deeps by dragging bosses out of AOEs.

IOW, he’s being a self-absorbed butt sniffer.

So I have no problem at all voting to kick and “making” him queue as a fake tank again. Let the next PUG either put up with his primal dona self or vote to kick him again.

So, instead of setting an end to this kindergarden, you try to become the principal, I see.

idk

VaranisArano wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Sygil05 wrote: »

I've resolved myself to this being a necessary evil based on the way the activity finder works. Playing a tank is the hardest role in the game, and a lack of tanks is always going to be an issue. I've had several times where I've been in a group of 3 (1 heals + 2 DPS) and sat in queue for 30+ minutes with no luck. Realistically, a tank isn't necessary for a lot of the veteran dungeons, so one of us just changes the role and we're able to get through the content.

The problem with trying to fix this is that any fix is going to most likely result in even longer queue times.

Playing a tank in 4 man dungeons is not the hardest role in the game. I guess it can be for someone who has never tanked.

It has been brought up before in threads like this that tanks pretty much avoid queueing in GF as a tank because of the chance they will get a group with low dps. It is better for them to queue up on their DD instead so they can carry a low damage group.

I have yet to have anyone complain I queued as a tank on a light armor dps character. Often at the end of the dungeon they express they are pleased with the group.

I will queue up to tank on a DPS character, but I will slot a taunt.

If you held boss aggro, Ive got no problem with you tanking on a DPS character. If you don't, and the boss aggros on my DD or healer, I've got a problem with you not doing your job and expecting me to do your job for you.

What you say is fine as a definition for an acceptable tank isn’t the same as what others have. The same can be said about being heals.

What OP has suggested would very much be open to abuse, trolling and griefing players.

At that, there is no meaningful means to ensure the “tank” can taunt or the “healer” will be able to heal me he group.

testd4n1

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Experienced tank here.

I have:
1 dk tank
1 warden healer tank hybrid
1 mag sorc off tank. My shields take more damage than most tanks health.

I run my two actual tanks on non pug 4 mans.

I run my sorc in randn pugs. Why? Fake dps queuing as dps. If I can tank the boss with one bar and dps with the other and still pull more than 50% dps you have no right to complain.

This right here. Plus with the change to Bound Aegis, they do quiet well.

Thrain

mikemacon wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

If you kick someone from a random normal because of "fake-roles" without even trying to do the dungeon first, you´re a bigger problem than the ones "faking" their roles. Just saying.....

Nope.

I always vote to kick fake tanks because it’s important to not reward selfish behavior. And the only reason someone would queue as a fake tank is because they’re very impressed with themselves and don’t think they should wait in the DD queue.

Just saying.

Then i guess you never needed a dungeon set wich got a very messed up drop chance
I mean yeah its so much fun if you run 30 times the same dungeon and you are always a real tank beacause you really want other players enjoying the game more than yourself

You kick fake tanks? then whats about "fake dds"?
I dont know if you are one of them but at least you act like them^^

Beeing a fake tank is crap in your opinion but fake dds are ok?

I always vote to kick fake dds because it’s important to not reward selfish behavior. And the only reason someone would queue as a fake dd is because they are very little impressive with their dps and dont think they would fit another role better.

Just saying.

regime211

Blame it on zos poor activity finder in which queuing up as your designated role such as a DPS can take 10-20 mins depending on even trying to find a dungeon. So I cant blame those who que up as a role they aren't actually on.

Velou

And how is ZOS supposed to change the high waiting time if there are a lot more people playing DPS than people playing as tank/heal?
In my opinion, not ZOS is the bad guy here - but the community is. No one cares about the others and everyone just wants to impress by high DPS.

Salvas_Aren

Velou wrote: »

And how is ZOS supposed to change the high waiting time if there are a lot more people playing DPS than people playing as tank/heal?
In my opinion, not ZOS is the bad guy here - but the community is. No one cares about the others and everyone just wants to impress by high DPS.

So, if a normal can be done faster with more DDs and no tank, it's the fake tanks fault?

The dungeon design is to blame here.

ZeroXFF

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

Velou wrote: »

And how is ZOS supposed to change the high waiting time if there are a lot more people playing DPS than people playing as tank/heal?
In my opinion, not ZOS is the bad guy here - but the community is. No one cares about the others and everyone just wants to impress by high DPS.

So, if a normal can be done faster with more DDs and no tank, it's the fake tanks fault?

The dungeon design is to blame here.

Actually I've never seen it done faster with 3DD + heal than with 3DD + tank. And with 4DD only if one of them was in a vMA setup and using a taunt (so effectively still 3DD+tank).

newtinmpls

josiahva wrote: »

I honestly couldn't care less if someone queues as a tank if they are a DD, as long as they actually perform the role they queued for reasonably. If you can do 35k DPS while holding the boss still and dragging in ads, all the more power to you. The problem starts when someone queues as a a different role then goes off and just doesn't perform the role they queued for. At this point, I simply use the vote-to-kick button. If the votes fails, I leave and go do something else. Problem solved.

I agree. Came up again today.

What do I want from the tank? Bare minimum, taunt and keep the bosses and most of the adds in a group so the DPS can mow them down. More is nicer, but ya gotta have a taunt. Or be doing enough damage that you don't lose aggro.

Doing a daily, noticed that the "tank" is using a flame destro staff. Given the outfit system I have no way of telling what kind of armor they have. But hey, there is an undaunted taunt that doesn't need any particular weapon.

First (minor) boss is hopping all over the place, so I throw out in chat a question about is their taunt working; or what's going on (no profanity, I was just at the "what's up" stage).

No answer. Another member of the group also throws out a similar comment.

Still no answer.

We get to the next (major) boss ... same thing. Boss is jumping around, targeting me (healer) quite a bit. Still, we finished the battle.

So I throw out another comment about I can see the flame staff - do you have a taunt, and if so why aren't you using it?

Vote to kick starts (and it wasn't me this time - though that would have been on my list). I hit yes, and the third person (I hadn't heard any comments from this person so far) does too, cause boom - tank is gone.

Then I get a few angry whispers .... guess the person thought it was me who initiated vote - but it did take three votes.

Replacement tank was a warden with an ice staff. I've never tanked that way, and this was the first time I've ever been in group with one - but tanked just fine. Positioned well, kept aggro (mostly - but life is like that) we finished pretty quick.

Basically I don't care if I *can* do the dungeon with a crappy/fake tank. If it's a random, I expect the fake tank to pretend to the point of putting on a [censored] taunt and using it.

Can't be bothered?

Bye!

newtinmpls

Jayman1000 wrote: »

doing pledges in normals are so easy that you don't need a tank or healer, just 4 dps.

And if you queue up as a "group o 4" and you have slotted your roles to make the dungeon finder think you are "an appropriately diverse group" (or whatever the thing calls it now) Then yippie for you.

If you are using the group finder, then you have chosen a role. You then have the obligation to fulfill that role.

Like I said, my bar for 'tank' is very low. Do you have a taunt? Do you use it with moderate effectiveness? If yes, yes, then I'm happy.

If better than I'm happy dancing and flute playing.

If not, then I'm voting to kick.

Bhaal5

Apart of the problem is the dps never wanting to make tanks
For all the "fake tanks" thread makes... Make a tank and que as it, problem solved

Azuramoonstar

regime211 wrote: »

Blame it on zos poor activity finder in which queuing up as your designated role such as a DPS can take 10-20 mins depending on even trying to find a dungeon. So I cant blame those who que up as a role they aren't actually on.

its not the df problem. its a player problem dps is the most played class on any/every mmo 90% ppl play dps. 10% only play healer or tank.

ff14 has similar issues and that game has set roles for their classes. And has the same issue.

Azuramoonstar

josiahva wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

It's very easy to complain about the fake tanks in this game, but remember one thing, damage dealers probably out number pure tanks/healers by a wide margin. Want to know why? What is the basic principle of this game, to kill mobs and or complete quests (usually requires killing)? Try playing a pure trials tank or healer in a solo manner. I's not fun. When I am collecting resource nodes on my tank, I avoid even the skeevers because its a long fight. I can't solo quest without having to fully change gear/CP to be able to reasonably complete them. On the other hand I can jump on my mag sorc and steamroll pretty much anything. I love my tank, and it is my main, but outside of challenging trials/dlc dungeons, he is u.s.e.l.e.s.s.

There are a shortage of tanks/healers because we suck at 90% of the game. Dps characters can either solo or group dps 90% of the game. That's why you see such an overwhelming amount of the population who are dps, and why it takes forever to queue as one. That's why they cheat the system.

Maybe we would see more support classes if they changed how our skills work? Like maybe as a tank our aggro builds a dot that gets stronger to kill mobs, or reflective damage that scales up the longer you get beat on? What if a healer targets a mob with a heal, make it do damage, or a similar reflect system? And if you are worried about end game activities being easier in that case, raise the hp of the mobs, or make them reflect immune.

I guess what I am saying is you are trying to put a band-aid on a slashed artery. The root problem lies with the fact that we see a shortage of support characters due to them being useless most of the time. If they had more usefulness we would see the player population rise and queue times would lower quite a bit for dps chars, reducing the "fake" issues by quite a bit.

There would be more tanks if there were other ways to tank. I have what I call a beserker tank...who holds aggro through sheer damage output...or at least early damage output. I aggro a mob and sustain 20k+ DPS(single target, more for a group obviously) this type of aggro-holding will only last as long as the average taunt, so its heavily dependent on the DPS doing more damage to finish off the mob quickly before I actually have to use a taunt(though it has the advantage of being able to hold aggro in a fake-DPS situation with only a few taunts). This particular type of tank is good for vet DLC dungeons and easier content...but does not have the health needed for vet DLC dungeons and trials...but the beserker tank can also solo-quest without any issue. The problem is that there is no support for this type of tank from ZOS. The same holds true for Tank/Healer hybrids...I have one of those as well, but due to lack of any support both these types of tanks require quite a bit of skill to play successfully, and they still struggle in certain places, but they add a certain amount of versatility...unfortunately, with ZOS stopping multi-role queuing, this type of tank has an even harder time than before...all because people whine endlessly about fake tanks instead of just kicking them for not doing their role.

ff14 has a dps tank called warrior who has pretty high dps output fun skills that deal high damage.

ff14 still has a issue with lacjk of tanks and people playing as tanks but not tanking.