Something needs to be done about this "fake tank" crap

Androconium

...(yawn)

zParallaxz

Waffennacht wrote: »

I can tell a lot of players haven't done a lot of end game content as a tank

"You don't need X"
Yeah, you do because X mechanic deals Y damage and your tank has to survive
"You don't need Y"
Yes you do, you have to plug that hole and tank that add, you must have a range taunt for this
"You can just do B"
No you can't healer needs to be in this location for this mechanic

In a lot of normal content, sure you're right, go for it. But for trials, HM, and some vet dlcs somethings are just necessary

I agree the only dlc dungeon u don’t need a tank for for easy run is wgt

VaranisArano

zParallaxz wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I can tell a lot of players haven't done a lot of end game content as a tank

"You don't need X"
Yeah, you do because X mechanic deals Y damage and your tank has to survive
"You don't need Y"
Yes you do, you have to plug that hole and tank that add, you must have a range taunt for this
"You can just do B"
No you can't healer needs to be in this location for this mechanic

In a lot of normal content, sure you're right, go for it. But for trials, HM, and some vet dlcs somethings are just necessary

I agree the only dlc dungeon u don’t need a tank for for easy run is wgt

And even that, you do need a group that understands the Planar Inhibitor's aggro mechanics (unless your PUGs are the miracle group with the DPS to burn, baby, burn.)

Silver_Strider

Having a tank in normal dungeons isn't necessary but it isn't fair that the rest of the group has to deal with it because someone was inconsiderate and wanted a faster queue time. Slotting a taunt is the least you can do, especially since you can still do respectable DPS regardless and because you never know the skill level of the group of people you're playing with that they might actually need a real tank.

It's when we get to vet dungeons that Fake Tanks can become a real problem for people. Even in easy vet dungeons, players can end up dying fairly easily without a proper tank and it makes the run all that much more frustrating for the rest of the group. I've had to tank my fair share of dungeons because we had that inconsiderate prick that wanted a faster queue and was made of tissue paper, kiting every enemy around, no taunt, etc. and no one wanted to vote kick. I blacklist them sure but that list is steadily becoming more and more full and I'd rather SOMETHING be done so that this trend would stop, at least in part. If that means increasing dungeon difficulty to, more or less, FORCE the trinity system to be followed, I'd gladly swallow that pill in a heartbeat at this point.

dazee

Why all this whining about people who do dungeons at level 24? I do dungeons at level 10. I mean, that's when dungeons first become avaliable. I've done dungeons in teams where -everyone- was level 10-15 and we finished with no deaths.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

I think fake DPS is a much bigger problem really. I can't even guess the number of times I've endured players whose idea of DPS is to sit back and spam light attacks on bow. Then *** when the other people won't carry them through vet level Bloodroot Forge.

josiahva

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Having a tank in normal dungeons isn't necessary but it isn't fair that the rest of the group has to deal with it because someone was inconsiderate and wanted a faster queue time. Slotting a taunt is the least you can do, especially since you can still do respectable DPS regardless and because you never know the skill level of the group of people you're playing with that they might actually need a real tank.

It's when we get to vet dungeons that Fake Tanks can become a real problem for people. Even in easy vet dungeons, players can end up dying fairly easily without a proper tank and it makes the run all that much more frustrating for the rest of the group. I've had to tank my fair share of dungeons because we had that inconsiderate prick that wanted a faster queue and was made of tissue paper, kiting every enemy around, no taunt, etc. and no one wanted to vote kick. I blacklist them sure but that list is steadily becoming more and more full and I'd rather SOMETHING be done so that this trend would stop, at least in part. If that means increasing dungeon difficulty to, more or less, FORCE the trinity system to be followed, I'd gladly swallow that pill in a heartbeat at this point.

I take issue with people who say you don't need a tank in normal dungeons. It is absolutely 100% true that a tank is not needed to complete normal dungeons...but you are missing the bigger picture. Where do you think tanks that tank vet dungeons and trials learn? In normal dungeons....so no, tanks are not needed to complete normal dungeons, but new tanks are needed and normal dungeons are their training grounds.

exiars10

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

I think fake DPS is a much bigger problem really. I can't even guess the number of times I've endured players whose idea of DPS is to sit back and spam light attacks on bow. Then *** when the other people won't carry them through vet level Bloodroot Forge.

But that some of us are trying to say - those fake tanks are actually fake/bad DDs who want other two DDs to carry them. They just queue as tank to have instant play.

The main problem is when they do that with friend/guild mate and you can't kick them.

Jura23

josiahva wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Having a tank in normal dungeons isn't necessary but it isn't fair that the rest of the group has to deal with it because someone was inconsiderate and wanted a faster queue time. Slotting a taunt is the least you can do, especially since you can still do respectable DPS regardless and because you never know the skill level of the group of people you're playing with that they might actually need a real tank.

It's when we get to vet dungeons that Fake Tanks can become a real problem for people. Even in easy vet dungeons, players can end up dying fairly easily without a proper tank and it makes the run all that much more frustrating for the rest of the group. I've had to tank my fair share of dungeons because we had that inconsiderate prick that wanted a faster queue and was made of tissue paper, kiting every enemy around, no taunt, etc. and no one wanted to vote kick. I blacklist them sure but that list is steadily becoming more and more full and I'd rather SOMETHING be done so that this trend would stop, at least in part. If that means increasing dungeon difficulty to, more or less, FORCE the trinity system to be followed, I'd gladly swallow that pill in a heartbeat at this point.

I take issue with people who say you don't need a tank in normal dungeons. It is absolutely 100% true that a tank is not needed to complete normal dungeons...but you are missing the bigger picture. Where do you think tanks that tank vet dungeons and trials learn? In normal dungeons....so no, tanks are not needed to complete normal dungeons, but new tanks are needed and normal dungeons are their training grounds.

I tend to disagree. Normal dungeons are so forgiving that if you have a decently geared tank, you won't learn much there. Just a couple of days ago I tried vet ICP for the first time and it was a disaster - at the first boss. I don't know if it was my mistake or not. Then I went for normal and the fight was over after like 1 minute.

abelsgmx

The worst thing of this fake tanks is when they thing are DPSers and just go to rub the mobs

KingMagaw

Any character i queue as for random normal dungeons can solo it, unless there is mechanic needs another person/anybody standing to trigger mechanic.

I play many characters and personally it is the fake/bad DPS i see most.

worsttankever

Jeremy wrote: »

I'm not sure what the best solution here would be.

Allowing to “rate” players as prefer or avoid in matching. When choosing avoid, allow broad category descriptions why like Sportsmanship or Cheating. With the ability to describe the offense with text if wanted.

If player rep was visible (ratio of prefer to avoid) their antisocial behavior will catch up with them.

See https://enforcement.xbox.com/en-us/home/reputation

SilverWF

Fake DDs are worse than fake tanks and healers.

Let's be real: most of vet dungeons doesn't require tank and even healer (if DDs are sorcs or NBs) - more important a knowledge of mechs.
But when your DDs sucks, then you're in big trouble, even if you have real tank and healer.

max_only

Community certification for tanking. Make a Tank guild, requirements must be met before you can join. That way people can ask for your tank certification (guild tabard) if they really really care. I would have three tiers to the guild. Beginner Tanks (learners who are dedicated to the role but haven’t done a lot of content); Intermediate Tanks (geared and experienced for all norm pledges and non dlc vet pledges); Expert Tank (you can take these to trials). I would also keep a running roster on the forum so it is easily searchable wether the tank you got is real. Either they are new and aren’t in the guild or they are fake.

Sometimes communities have to police themselves.

max_only

phileunderx2 wrote: »

Instead of having to actually physically taunt a boss aggro from bosses should default to whomever is qued as tank. This should quickly end the epidemic of fake tanks.

This is a great solution. If no taunts are applied the boss keeps pounding on the person queued as Tank.

The_Protagonist

Jura23 wrote: »

oli.j.reillyb16_ESO wrote: »

Want a real tank? Don’t use the finder - it’s really that simple.

Most real tanks won’t dare to PUG because you are completely at the mercy of whoever you end up with. Whether that’s 5k group DPS or some CP-cap joker who thinks he’s hot stuff and makes a mess of every pull before predictably dying to the mess he’s made.

Either end of the extreme - it’s not fun - and it’s not worth my time. Besides - why should I PuG - I know my worth as a tank main and all I ever hear from you finder users is how tanks are unnecessary.

Newsflash - 3 dps + 1 tank goes way faster and smoother than 3dps + 1 healer ever does - in my experience. All I ever see in the latter is an overworked healer and even longer boss fights than the standard role setup - since you’re all taking turns to kite the boss instead of just killing it.

BS. Speak for yourself.

It's not BS, it really does way more faster with 1 Tank and 3 DDs, it's very clear you have not done this before.

MerlinPendragon

Boot them.

There doesn't need to be any other system.

Have the guts to call them on it in chat. Embarrass them. Make sure they won't do it again.

yurimodin

man I was in a cradle of shadows 1 last night with my cp200 NB Healer..........everyone else was CP as well. After healing the DD for extrodinary long times I got tired of waiting for them to actually do some damage so I would have to flip over to my back bar inferno staff and actually start melting the enemies.....that's right the HEALER was hitting harder than our DPS's.

Granted DPS is not for everyone (they could just stumbling into CP not researching their builds etc). Stamblade was not working for me so at cp160 I respeced to magika healer.......sad thing is I can get more DPS out of it now AND heal at the same time

Gnortranermara

Kick the fake tanks, 100% of the time. IDGAF if it's a normal City of Ash I, kick the faker. I don't care if they do 150k DPS, kick them. It won't stop until the players make it stop.

I'd rather 3 man the whole thing with two level 30 scrub DPS. I don't care. Fake tank is getting das boot.

SakuraRush

MerlinPendragon wrote: »

Boot them.

There doesn't need to be any other system.

Have the guts to call them on it in chat. Embarrass them. Make sure they won't do it again.

They don't care. I've called many of them on it numerous times.

There is another epidemic going on as well, people queueing as damage on a PvP build and performing as such. This is super frustrating from the point of view of an actual damage, tank, or healer as you're making it that much more work on us all.

Anothet problem is the damage that doesn't understand positioning. If I face the boss one way it does not mean to stack up on me. It means hit the boss in the butt.

You need to be able to handle adds as well. The tank is not there to deal with every enemy. We grab the threats. If the side skeletons are a danger to you then you are not ready for that content.

And healers, don't sacrifice the group trying to keep that 15k health light attack spamming damage alive. Keep the tank healed, keep yourself healed, then worry about the damage.

Fake tanks are a problem. Poor play by those unwilling to learn is a greater problem.

Minyassa

I tried to logic out a solution and it really does seem kind of hopeless. The reason people are lying and putting DDs in as tanks or healers is because there are just so dang many DDs that they end up having to wait a thousand years if they are honest. So the only solutions would be to make it more attractive somehow to play tanks and healers, or to change the grouping requirements somehow. The latter would take soooo much messing around to keep it balanced. The former...well, I honestly do not know why there are so many more DDs than tanks or healers. Tanking is so much fun and healing has always struck me as admirable and prestigious because healers in this game tend to kick so much butt *while* they heal. Maybe the game needs to offer tutorials in playing roles to give people a good taste of the fun involved in all of them, so that people who are afraid or reluctant to try other roles can see what they could get out of it.

Jeremy

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Kick the fake tanks, 100% of the time. IDGAF if it's a normal City of Ash I, kick the faker. I don't care if they do 150k DPS, kick them. It won't stop until the players make it stop.

I'd rather 3 man the whole thing with two level 30 scrub DPS. I don't care. Fake tank is getting das boot.

A zero tolerance policy probably would help. But everyone or at least most would probably have to adopt it for it to be effective because the practice has become so common place.

I dared to queue as my healer the other day instead of my tank (I wanted a change) and yep - fake tank. Some terrible DPS with no taunt and crap defenses who wouldn't even start the fight until people yelled at him. Which was just as well, as he couldn't even handle the damage bosses in Vet Tempest Island were dishing out. So I ended up having to initiate the fights on my healer and attempt to tank (who sadly had a better defense than our tank did). So it didn't take me long to learn this lesson over again.

We did beat the dungeon - but it was done without a tank and it was a lot more annoying than it needed to be. I should have initiated a vote kick as you say. Though I'm not sure it would have done much really as we would have probably just waited for a tank to join or another fake tank while we finished the dungeon the three of us anyway. But at least the fake tank wouldn't have got credit for the run. So you're right - the rest of us should stop putting up with it. That probably only encourages it even more - and that's the last thing it needs.

I'm to the point where I actually think more DPS classes queue up as a tank now than actual tanks do. Scratch that. I know more of them do.

Jeremy

Androconium wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

So in my experience these "fake tanks" are not super players capable of dominating a dungeon on their own. They are more often than not mediocre DPS classes who simply lie to get into a dungeon faster.

This is really boiling down to your selfish expectations versus the 'fake-player' selfish expectations. You're expecting to play the role that you nominated for (legitimately selfish); and the fake player is selfishly expecting to get an XP hit without waiting.

However disruptive or unfair this is, the rest of us are tired of hearing about it.

Build a bridge and get over it.

You're right of course. How selfish of me to expect people to play the role they actually queued up to play.

Unfortunately the rules of this forum prevent me from answering you as you deserve. So I'll simply tell you if you are tired of hearing about it - then simply leave the thread. No one is making you post here or read my comments. So you have only yourself to blame for that. So either learn how to avoid topics you are tired of reading about or go find a mirror and fuss at yourself - because you are the only one to blame for having to hear about it.

visionality

VaranisArano wrote: »

When I'm on my healer, I just LOVE healing, buffing, DPSing, and tanking the boss, NOT! I'm very tempted to just run around like a chicken with my head cut off even though I'm perfectly capable of standing still, because if I have to tank the boss for a fake tank, why should the fake tank get to enjoy a good DPS parse?

Actually I once resetted the boss over and over by running away whenever he was aggroed on me. Nothing convinced the rest of the group faster to kick a really, really bad fake tank (light attacking with a bow from a distance, never attacking first).

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

The new dungeons are definitely exposing the fake tanks for what they are, so I have been told. Everything from not being able to withstand damage from bosses and boss mechanics, to being unable to even properly position things. My feelings go out to those you who must endure this wave of non-experienced tanks, and fake tanks alike.

There is a huge difference between fake tanks and bad tanks. You are talking about bad tanks, not being setup correctly for their role but still trying. Fake tanks are a completely different story. They abuse the grouping tool and the other group members to get an easy ride through a dungeon while avoiding queuing times.

Jeremy

visionality wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

When I'm on my healer, I just LOVE healing, buffing, DPSing, and tanking the boss, NOT! I'm very tempted to just run around like a chicken with my head cut off even though I'm perfectly capable of standing still, because if I have to tank the boss for a fake tank, why should the fake tank get to enjoy a good DPS parse?

Actually I once resetted the boss over and over by running away whenever he was aggroed on me. Nothing convinced the rest of the group faster to kick a really, really bad fake tank (light attacking with a bow from a distance, never attacking first).

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

The new dungeons are definitely exposing the fake tanks for what they are, so I have been told. Everything from not being able to withstand damage from bosses and boss mechanics, to being unable to even properly position things. My feelings go out to those you who must endure this wave of non-experienced tanks, and fake tanks alike.

There is a huge difference between fake tanks and bad tanks. You are talking about bad tanks, not being setup correctly for their role but still trying. Fake tanks are a completely different story. They abuse the grouping tool and the other group members to get an easy ride through a dungeon while avoiding queuing times.

Agreed.

I think it's important to distinguish between newer tanks who are still in the process of learning - and then those who never had any intention of tanking in the first place. They just want to do damage and let other people worry about it. That's what irritates me.

profundidob16_ESO

I main a healer since beta but never queue in RGF anymore for this exact reason. I love a healing challenge but I cannot outheal 1 shots. Since shortly I main a tank since a while now and always queue vet DLC as tank nowadays for my healthy daily dosis of drama

Jeremy

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

I main a healer since beta but never queue in RGF anymore for this exact reason. I love a healing challenge but I cannot outheal 1 shots. Since shortly I main a tank since a while now and always queue vet DLC as tank nowadays for my healthy daily dosis of drama

I'm in the same boat. I've pretty much stopped queuing up as my healer all together. The time I described was the first time in weeks - and it didn't take me long to be reminded of why I stopped.

I mean if I'm going to end up tanking anyway I might as well actually bring my tank....

Qbiken

While I don´t use the dungeon finder for more than random normal (you get some nice exp for it) I don´t see the problem with "faking" roles. I used to make use of the dungeon finder for veteran dungeons, and sometimes you came across a healer or tank that actually was a DD.

What did we do?

We went on with the group we had to see if it actually could work, and if it didn´t work it wasn´t the end of the world. Many times it ended with us not completing the dungeon. If anything, that is something that would make someone not queue for a role they can´t fulfil.

Having some kind of "self-made" policy to kick everyone that queue as a "fake-role" just creates more toxicity imo. Go with what you get and if it doesn´t work don´t make a big deal out of it.

Jeremy

Qbiken wrote: »

While I don´t use the dungeon finder for more than random normal (you get some nice exp for it) I don´t see the problem with "faking" roles. I used to make use of the dungeon finder for veteran dungeons, and sometimes you came across a healer or tank that actually was a DD.

What did we do?

We went on with the group we had to see if it actually could work, and if it didn´t work it wasn´t the end of the world. Many times it ended with us not completing the dungeon. If anything, that is something that would make someone not queue for a role they can´t fulfil.

Having some kind of "self-made" policy to kick everyone that queue as a "fake-role" just creates more toxicity imo. Go with what you get and if it doesn´t work don´t make a big deal out of it.

That's probably just because you don't use the group finder often.

The first few times it happens.... yeah it's not a big deal and the change in pace might even make things interesting. But when it starts to be routine it turns into an issue. Especially if you play as a healer who is constantly being forced into tanking everything.

If people don't want to tank - then they shouldn't sign up as a tank. It's that simple really. And if anything increases toxicity - it's saying you're a tank when you're really not and forcing everyone else to pick up your slack.

DirkRavenclaw

If you Impersonate, yes Impersonate a Role you arent, then it should be against the TOS and you should get banned for a while. Would solve the Problem. I personally vote to kick or leave, simple as that. If i wanna do a quick normal Random, i jump on my Tank with Ebon and different other sets or on my Templar Healer who either supports the DPS with a firestaff and Restrostaff, if the DPS is strong i run double Restrostaff