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No changes to shieldbreaker?
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Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Shadowmaster wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »I use this set shamelessly and without discrimination.
I also use resource poisons, have about 11% into the Siphoner CP and get hate whispers all the time for it but honestly IDGAF at this point. Everyone and their mother is an infinite sustain, instagib Overload Sorc in PvP nowadays that I really don't feel bad about any of it.
"Shieldbreaker is cheese"
So is having an unblockable, undodgable burst combo from 40m away while also having 40k shield on top of it all so f*** off with your whiney attitude.
If I could give you ESO gold for this post, I would.
ESO sorcs - "Everyone is mean we can't 1v40 anymore without even taking damage, the two sets in the game players can use to actually fight us should be removed!"
Everyone else - "Dude wtf infinite sustain sorcs, my only option is 2 different gear sets. Thats literally my only option!"
Shieldbreaker users.. : I wants to kills stuff by left-clicking...
Guy who has to time 4/5 abilities to land all at the same time to get a kill : … ???
Yes because Shieldbreaker is an instant win condition against any and all builds, despite being essentially useless against all stamina builds and even some magic builds. You don't kill anyone in PvP with solely light attacks, and anyone that does die would have done so against any build. Using Shieldbreaker is essentially playing handicapped against anyone that isn't using a Damage Shield as their primary defense and it's still entirely possible to lose a fight against those that do use damage shields with the set.
I don't complain about Stamden, despite also having a kill combo or DK despite having an unblocked CC because those classes are set up in a way that, while powerful by their own rights at least allow for some counterplay to be had. Fossilize has a short range and DK itself is largely DoT based so not only are they more vulnerable to retaliation from close combat, they also can be purged. Stamden, while a powerful burst class, is also a close range combatant so same rules apply there but Sorc does not have that stipulation. It doesn't have to risk anything at all for maximum damage while actively countering anything that could potentially be a threat; Blocking is out because of Rune Cage, Cloak is easily countered by Curse or Streak, most of the combo can't be reflected/dodged, leaving your only real option to just hope you survive long enough to heal thru the damage and even then Mage's Fury/Implosion make that even harder as it makes it so that you're essentially playing with 80% health at all times.
So please, keep assuming that people that use Shieldbreaker just want an easy win button because if that was even remotely true, then people could just run in groups of Sload Users and get the same effect with even less effort.
That old story..
Completely useless against stam? Really. The 2-4 piece bonuses are pretty good. All you lose is a single 5-piece bonus.. So what's that? Hundings is 300 wpn dmg... Losing that is maybe a 3-4% dmg loss.. whoopy-doo.
I mean, of course that's what makes the average shieldbreaker user completely innefective against stam, it's the set! Or maybe it explains how they can still lose Vs sorcs even with it!
And you can use another set that gives similar 2-4 piece bonuses with a decent 5pc bonus that is universally more useful than Shieldbreaker too. Let me rephrase, It's useless, in comparison to other similar sets, against Stamina players because you could run anything else with similar 2-4 piece bonuses and be more effective in general instead of specialized for fighting shield spammers. Hell, I could run Night Mother's Embrace, which has the EXACT same 2-4 piece bonuses but comes with an extra 5th piece weapon damage buff as well as making sneaking more effective so it's more universally powerful in comparison to Shieldbreaker, which is only useful against shield users.
Keep reaching with strawman arguments.Silver_Strider wrote: »Shadowmaster wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »I use this set shamelessly and without discrimination.
I also use resource poisons, have about 11% into the Siphoner CP and get hate whispers all the time for it but honestly IDGAF at this point. Everyone and their mother is an infinite sustain, instagib Overload Sorc in PvP nowadays that I really don't feel bad about any of it.
"Shieldbreaker is cheese"
So is having an unblockable, undodgable burst combo from 40m away while also having 40k shield on top of it all so f*** off with your whiney attitude.
If I could give you ESO gold for this post, I would.
ESO sorcs - "Everyone is mean we can't 1v40 anymore without even taking damage, the two sets in the game players can use to actually fight us should be removed!"
Everyone else - "Dude wtf infinite sustain sorcs, my only option is 2 different gear sets. Thats literally my only option!"
Shieldbreaker users.. : I wants to kills stuff by left-clicking...
Guy who has to time 4/5 abilities to land all at the same time to get a kill : … ???
Yes because Shieldbreaker is an instant win condition against any and all builds, despite being essentially useless against all stamina builds and even some magic builds. You don't kill anyone in PvP with solely light attacks, and anyone that does die would have done so against any build. Using Shieldbreaker is essentially playing handicapped against anyone that isn't using a Damage Shield as their primary defense and it's still entirely possible to lose a fight against those that do use damage shields with the set.
I don't complain about Stamden, despite also having a kill combo or DK despite having an unblocked CC because those classes are set up in a way that, while powerful by their own rights at least allow for some counterplay to be had. Fossilize has a short range and DK itself is largely DoT based so not only are they more vulnerable to retaliation from close combat, they also can be purged. Stamden, while a powerful burst class, is also a close range combatant so same rules apply there but Sorc does not have that stipulation. It doesn't have to risk anything at all for maximum damage while actively countering anything that could potentially be a threat; Blocking is out because of Rune Cage, Cloak is easily countered by Curse or Streak, most of the combo can't be reflected/dodged, leaving your only real option to just hope you survive long enough to heal thru the damage and even then Mage's Fury/Implosion make that even harder as it makes it so that you're essentially playing with 80% health at all times.
So please, keep assuming that people that use Shieldbreaker just want an easy win button because if that was even remotely true, then people could just run in groups of Sload Users and get the same effect with even less effort.
Which part of: "Shieldbreaker adds 3.5k oblivion dps just by spamming light attacks, that's more than most duel builds have with all their skills" was too hard for you to understand?
Most stambuilds aren't able to reach 3.5k hps and that's without defiles but keep thinking it's balanced just because sorcs are unbalanced as well.
If this set existed for every spec/ defence everyone would run one of those because they give you do many free ap and you can easily backbar it while the 2,3,4 pc bonuses are still great
The part where you left out the Damage Shield Requirement to proc Shieldbreaker in the 1st place. To my knowledge, you can't forcibly apply a damage shield to an enemy target, meaning you would need the enemy to do that willingly for you to get the extra 2.5K oblivion damage Shield Breaker adds to your light attacks and last I checked, Oblivion Damage couldn't be boosted by anything so I'm not sure where you're getting 3.5K oblivion damage from.
And you completely miss the point. If you ran night mother's, exactly how much damage does that 5 piece give you over shieldbreaker Vs a non-shield user? You tell me exactly how much harder you hit on, say a surprise attack?
Let's take the other side.. SB gives a 5 piece that's useless Vs stam. Spriggarns gives a 5 piece that's useless Vs shields.. almost exact opposites, right?
Spriggarns adds maybe 4% dmg. That is NOTHING compared to 3200 oblivion dps. NOTHING.
Where is the balance?
I didn't miss the point. I was arguing against the point that the 2-4 on Shieldbreaker are irrelevant in this discussion because other sets can provide the same benefits.
Then, there's the fact that Spriggan still applies after the shield is removed thus making it superior in all other situations vs Shieldbreaker which only works in 1 situation and is completely useless outside that situation. A situational dependant set
Also, can someone also explain to me how people get more damage on Shieldbreaker because everyone keeps claiming the damage fluctuates between the 3200-3500 range but mine only deals 2500 golded out so I'd love to get that extra 1k damage out of it.
Do you not know what the light attack speeds are for each weapon? I'll give you a clue. They are not all the same and not all 1 second.Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.1 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Shadowmaster wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »I use this set shamelessly and without discrimination.
I also use resource poisons, have about 11% into the Siphoner CP and get hate whispers all the time for it but honestly IDGAF at this point. Everyone and their mother is an infinite sustain, instagib Overload Sorc in PvP nowadays that I really don't feel bad about any of it.
"Shieldbreaker is cheese"
So is having an unblockable, undodgable burst combo from 40m away while also having 40k shield on top of it all so f*** off with your whiney attitude.
If I could give you ESO gold for this post, I would.
ESO sorcs - "Everyone is mean we can't 1v40 anymore without even taking damage, the two sets in the game players can use to actually fight us should be removed!"
Everyone else - "Dude wtf infinite sustain sorcs, my only option is 2 different gear sets. Thats literally my only option!"
Shieldbreaker users.. : I wants to kills stuff by left-clicking...
Guy who has to time 4/5 abilities to land all at the same time to get a kill : … ???
Yes because Shieldbreaker is an instant win condition against any and all builds, despite being essentially useless against all stamina builds and even some magic builds. You don't kill anyone in PvP with solely light attacks, and anyone that does die would have done so against any build. Using Shieldbreaker is essentially playing handicapped against anyone that isn't using a Damage Shield as their primary defense and it's still entirely possible to lose a fight against those that do use damage shields with the set.
I don't complain about Stamden, despite also having a kill combo or DK despite having an unblocked CC because those classes are set up in a way that, while powerful by their own rights at least allow for some counterplay to be had. Fossilize has a short range and DK itself is largely DoT based so not only are they more vulnerable to retaliation from close combat, they also can be purged. Stamden, while a powerful burst class, is also a close range combatant so same rules apply there but Sorc does not have that stipulation. It doesn't have to risk anything at all for maximum damage while actively countering anything that could potentially be a threat; Blocking is out because of Rune Cage, Cloak is easily countered by Curse or Streak, most of the combo can't be reflected/dodged, leaving your only real option to just hope you survive long enough to heal thru the damage and even then Mage's Fury/Implosion make that even harder as it makes it so that you're essentially playing with 80% health at all times.
So please, keep assuming that people that use Shieldbreaker just want an easy win button because if that was even remotely true, then people could just run in groups of Sload Users and get the same effect with even less effort.
That old story..
Completely useless against stam? Really. The 2-4 piece bonuses are pretty good. All you lose is a single 5-piece bonus.. So what's that? Hundings is 300 wpn dmg... Losing that is maybe a 3-4% dmg loss.. whoopy-doo.
I mean, of course that's what makes the average shieldbreaker user completely innefective against stam, it's the set! Or maybe it explains how they can still lose Vs sorcs even with it!
And you can use another set that gives similar 2-4 piece bonuses with a decent 5pc bonus that is universally more useful than Shieldbreaker too. Let me rephrase, It's useless, in comparison to other similar sets, against Stamina players because you could run anything else with similar 2-4 piece bonuses and be more effective in general instead of specialized for fighting shield spammers. Hell, I could run Night Mother's Embrace, which has the EXACT same 2-4 piece bonuses but comes with an extra 5th piece weapon damage buff as well as making sneaking more effective so it's more universally powerful in comparison to Shieldbreaker, which is only useful against shield users.
Keep reaching with strawman arguments.Silver_Strider wrote: »Shadowmaster wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »I use this set shamelessly and without discrimination.
I also use resource poisons, have about 11% into the Siphoner CP and get hate whispers all the time for it but honestly IDGAF at this point. Everyone and their mother is an infinite sustain, instagib Overload Sorc in PvP nowadays that I really don't feel bad about any of it.
"Shieldbreaker is cheese"
So is having an unblockable, undodgable burst combo from 40m away while also having 40k shield on top of it all so f*** off with your whiney attitude.
If I could give you ESO gold for this post, I would.
ESO sorcs - "Everyone is mean we can't 1v40 anymore without even taking damage, the two sets in the game players can use to actually fight us should be removed!"
Everyone else - "Dude wtf infinite sustain sorcs, my only option is 2 different gear sets. Thats literally my only option!"
Shieldbreaker users.. : I wants to kills stuff by left-clicking...
Guy who has to time 4/5 abilities to land all at the same time to get a kill : … ???
Yes because Shieldbreaker is an instant win condition against any and all builds, despite being essentially useless against all stamina builds and even some magic builds. You don't kill anyone in PvP with solely light attacks, and anyone that does die would have done so against any build. Using Shieldbreaker is essentially playing handicapped against anyone that isn't using a Damage Shield as their primary defense and it's still entirely possible to lose a fight against those that do use damage shields with the set.
I don't complain about Stamden, despite also having a kill combo or DK despite having an unblocked CC because those classes are set up in a way that, while powerful by their own rights at least allow for some counterplay to be had. Fossilize has a short range and DK itself is largely DoT based so not only are they more vulnerable to retaliation from close combat, they also can be purged. Stamden, while a powerful burst class, is also a close range combatant so same rules apply there but Sorc does not have that stipulation. It doesn't have to risk anything at all for maximum damage while actively countering anything that could potentially be a threat; Blocking is out because of Rune Cage, Cloak is easily countered by Curse or Streak, most of the combo can't be reflected/dodged, leaving your only real option to just hope you survive long enough to heal thru the damage and even then Mage's Fury/Implosion make that even harder as it makes it so that you're essentially playing with 80% health at all times.
So please, keep assuming that people that use Shieldbreaker just want an easy win button because if that was even remotely true, then people could just run in groups of Sload Users and get the same effect with even less effort.
Which part of: "Shieldbreaker adds 3.5k oblivion dps just by spamming light attacks, that's more than most duel builds have with all their skills" was too hard for you to understand?
Most stambuilds aren't able to reach 3.5k hps and that's without defiles but keep thinking it's balanced just because sorcs are unbalanced as well.
If this set existed for every spec/ defence everyone would run one of those because they give you do many free ap and you can easily backbar it while the 2,3,4 pc bonuses are still great
The part where you left out the Damage Shield Requirement to proc Shieldbreaker in the 1st place. To my knowledge, you can't forcibly apply a damage shield to an enemy target, meaning you would need the enemy to do that willingly for you to get the extra 2.5K oblivion damage Shield Breaker adds to your light attacks and last I checked, Oblivion Damage couldn't be boosted by anything so I'm not sure where you're getting 3.5K oblivion damage from.
And you completely miss the point. If you ran night mother's, exactly how much damage does that 5 piece give you over shieldbreaker Vs a non-shield user? You tell me exactly how much harder you hit on, say a surprise attack?
Let's take the other side.. SB gives a 5 piece that's useless Vs stam. Spriggarns gives a 5 piece that's useless Vs shields.. almost exact opposites, right?
Spriggarns adds maybe 4% dmg. That is NOTHING compared to 3200 oblivion dps. NOTHING.
Where is the balance?
I didn't miss the point. I was arguing against the point that the 2-4 on Shieldbreaker are irrelevant in this discussion because other sets can provide the same benefits.
Then, there's the fact that Spriggan still applies after the shield is removed thus making it superior in all other situations vs Shieldbreaker which only works in 1 situation and is completely useless outside that situation. A situational dependant set
Also, can someone also explain to me how people get more damage on Shieldbreaker because everyone keeps claiming the damage fluctuates between the 3200-3500 range but mine only deals 2500 golded out so I'd love to get that extra 1k damage out of it.
Do you not know what the light attack speeds are for each weapon? I'll give you a clue. They are not all the same and not all 1 second.
I'm well aware of the difference in weapon attack speed, I just figured that it was something else I wasn't aware of.Argonian forever0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It's specifically this attack speed difference that means that the set should have a cool down on its proc.
(And a big glowy on the user, the same way steakhers are gonna benefit from it on detect pot users etc..)Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »
I didn't miss the point. I was arguing against the point that the 2-4 on Shieldbreaker are irrelevant in this discussion because other sets can provide the same benefits.
Then, there's the fact that Spriggan still applies after the shield is removed thus making it superior in all other situations vs Shieldbreaker which only works in 1 situation and is completely useless outside that situation. A situational dependant set
Also, can someone also explain to me how people get more damage on Shieldbreaker because everyone keeps claiming the damage fluctuates between the 3200-3500 range but mine only deals 2500 golded out so I'd love to get that extra 1k damage out of it.
... and totaly OP in that situation. Is this a good design? Useless in some situations, OP when condition is met?Edited by Mayrael on July 15, 2018 11:57AMI'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »
I didn't miss the point. I was arguing against the point that the 2-4 on Shieldbreaker are irrelevant in this discussion because other sets can provide the same benefits.
Then, there's the fact that Spriggan still applies after the shield is removed thus making it superior in all other situations vs Shieldbreaker which only works in 1 situation and is completely useless outside that situation. A situational dependant set
Also, can someone also explain to me how people get more damage on Shieldbreaker because everyone keeps claiming the damage fluctuates between the 3200-3500 range but mine only deals 2500 golded out so I'd love to get that extra 1k damage out of it.
... and totaly OP in that situation. Is this a good design? Useless in some situations, OP when condition is met?
Kinda like shields, eh? Except reversed, of course - those are useless in only one situation, OP in all others.Edited by Sharee on July 15, 2018 12:21PM5 -
Gprime31✭✭✭✭Should stay, sorcs have been on top way too long..... respec to one reciently , run shackle- Lich- engine, broke af, brainless easy class/gameplay.2 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »
I didn't miss the point. I was arguing against the point that the 2-4 on Shieldbreaker are irrelevant in this discussion because other sets can provide the same benefits.
Then, there's the fact that Spriggan still applies after the shield is removed thus making it superior in all other situations vs Shieldbreaker which only works in 1 situation and is completely useless outside that situation. A situational dependant set
Also, can someone also explain to me how people get more damage on Shieldbreaker because everyone keeps claiming the damage fluctuates between the 3200-3500 range but mine only deals 2500 golded out so I'd love to get that extra 1k damage out of it.
... and totaly OP in that situation. Is this a good design? Useless in some situations, OP when condition is met?
Kinda like shields, eh? Except reversed, of course - those are useless in only one situation, OP in all others.
You mean 1v1 against someone with low spike dmg and gradually getting weaker in every scenario exceeding two players?<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kinda like shields, eh? Except reversed, of course - those are useless in only one situation, OP in all others.
If that kind of design is no issue for you, then please give us similar sets for other classes. That is: sets that completely wreck that class within 10 secs by only spamming light attacks.
Personally, I am against such an appraoch, but at least it would be balanced in the regard that every class / build got such a "free kill" set to screw it over.1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kinda like shields, eh? Except reversed, of course - those are useless in only one situation, OP in all others.
If that kind of design is no issue for you, then please give us similar sets for other classes. That is: sets that completely wreck that class within 10 secs by only spamming light attacks.
You are aware that any competent sorc will kill your light attack spamming behind twice over in the same time period, yes?
"Completely wreck" indeed...2 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭Kinda like shields, eh? Except reversed, of course - those are useless in only one situation, OP in all others.
If that kind of design is no issue for you, then please give us similar sets for other classes. That is: sets that completely wreck that class within 10 secs by only spamming light attacks.
You are aware that any competent sorc will kill your light attack spamming behind twice over in the same time period, yes?
"Completely wreck" indeed...
Not if I build a max resistance 40k hp heavy armor tank that spams bow light attacks.
Vigor and Cloak immediately after Curse is cast.
CC the sorc after curse is cast.
Pop an immovable.
Not run full divines on a medium armor stamblade.
Not start a duel and stand their while the sorc builds up ultimate to cast meteor.
If you die to a curse+fury+frag+rune cage combo every single time its applied to you at full health ,it says more about the difference in player skill/build than sorc balance.
Funny that you're using a skill that everybody agrees is overpowered to justify the existence of Shield Breaker.Without Rune Cage there is plenty of counterplay to the sorc combo. Using 1 broken mechanic to justify Shield Breaker simply proves that Shield Breaker utilizes a broken mechanic as well.
Or are you saying the Sorc burst is has no counter even without Rune Cage?2 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kinda like shields, eh? Except reversed, of course - those are useless in only one situation, OP in all others.
If that kind of design is no issue for you, then please give us similar sets for other classes. That is: sets that completely wreck that class within 10 secs by only spamming light attacks.
You are aware that any competent sorc will kill your light attack spamming behind twice over in the same time period, yes?
"Completely wreck" indeed...
Not if I build a max resistance 40k hp heavy armor tank that spams bow light attacks.
Vigor and Cloak immediately after Curse is cast.
CC the sorc after curse is cast.
Pop an immovable.
Make up your mind. Either all you need is a set to completely wreck a sorc "by only spamming light attacks" - or you need to be a 40K hp nightblade who also uses other abilities to defeat the sorc. Can't have it both ways.1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Kinda like shields, eh? Except reversed, of course - those are useless in only one situation, OP in all others.
If that kind of design is no issue for you, then please give us similar sets for other classes. That is: sets that completely wreck that class within 10 secs by only spamming light attacks.
You are aware that any competent sorc will kill your light attack spamming behind twice over in the same time period, yes?
"Completely wreck" indeed...
You just don't have any idea what you are talking about.
You aren't using the most stupid opponent there is someone who should never ever be a threat to an exceptional player yet this set gives everyone, even a 65k health tank the opportunity to apply 3.5k oblivion dps on an enemy that is actively defending himself with the tools his class is build around.2 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kinda like shields, eh? Except reversed, of course - those are useless in only one situation, OP in all others.
If that kind of design is no issue for you, then please give us similar sets for other classes. That is: sets that completely wreck that class within 10 secs by only spamming light attacks.
You are aware that any competent sorc will kill your light attack spamming behind twice over in the same time period, yes?
"Completely wreck" indeed...
You just don't have any idea what you are talking about.
You aren't using the most stupid opponent there is someone who should never ever be a threat to an exceptional player yet this set gives everyone, even a 65k health tank the opportunity to apply 3.5k oblivion dps on an enemy that is actively defending himself with the tools his class is build around.
"He should never be a threat". And why, exactly, should he not be a threat?
Gotta love these "rules" players invent for themselves and then get mad when others don't follow them.4 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Kinda like shields, eh? Except reversed, of course - those are useless in only one situation, OP in all others.
If that kind of design is no issue for you, then please give us similar sets for other classes. That is: sets that completely wreck that class within 10 secs by only spamming light attacks.
You are aware that any competent sorc will kill your light attack spamming behind twice over in the same time period, yes?
"Completely wreck" indeed...
You just don't have any idea what you are talking about.
You aren't using the most stupid opponent there is someone who should never ever be a threat to an exceptional player yet this set gives everyone, even a 65k health tank the opportunity to apply 3.5k oblivion dps on an enemy that is actively defending himself with the tools his class is build around.
"He should never be a threat". And why, exactly, should he not be a threat?
Gotta love these "rules" players invent for themselves and then get mad when others don't follow them.
I don't think i can explain it to someone who isn't able to understand it on their own.
I hope @Derra can do it in an appropriate way0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kinda like shields, eh? Except reversed, of course - those are useless in only one situation, OP in all others.
If that kind of design is no issue for you, then please give us similar sets for other classes. That is: sets that completely wreck that class within 10 secs by only spamming light attacks.
You are aware that any competent sorc will kill your light attack spamming behind twice over in the same time period, yes?
"Completely wreck" indeed...
You just don't have any idea what you are talking about.
You aren't using the most stupid opponent there is someone who should never ever be a threat to an exceptional player yet this set gives everyone, even a 65k health tank the opportunity to apply 3.5k oblivion dps on an enemy that is actively defending himself with the tools his class is build around.
"He should never be a threat". And why, exactly, should he not be a threat?
Gotta love these "rules" players invent for themselves and then get mad when others don't follow them.
well said, all truth.
that is exactly what is happening here.1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don´t think i even want to try.
The discussion is fundamentally flawed in many ways and people defending shieldbreaker do it mainly resulting from frustration over their own incompetence (these days).
The feeling of helplessness against shields is imo largely created by the games terrible UI design that hinders the player fighting a shielding sorc from any proper assessment of the situation regarding their opponents health + their own dmg output.
Currently you never see the pressure you put on your opponent and even if you might have had them on the verge of dying within 1 or 2 gcds you´ll never know due to the awful design of shieldbars.
The main issue i personally have with shieldbreaker isn´t it´s existance in the first place. It´s that as a sorc i have no choice in the defense i use (and that equivalents do not exist against block/dodge/cloak/purge - to name other powerful defense mechanics).
I´d get the notion about shields if sorcs had a legitimate choice about how they´d defend themselves but they still chose shields - but there is none. So in the end it´s a poorly designed set that offers no way to play around it for the class it hardcounters (and i think hardcounters shouldn´t be a thing in a game like eso at all - i´d scrap detect pots/mark alongside shieldbreaker and any other form of obliviondmg).
Luckily it´s almost exclusively utilized by underperforming players who then proceed to put back of their own feelings of frustration and helplessness back into the game one lightattack at a time and mostly still fail.Edited by Derra on July 15, 2018 6:33PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 505 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The main issue i personally have with shieldbreaker isn´t it´s existance in the first place.
Well, i think its fairly sure the devs did not put it in the game because of their own feelings of frustration and helplessness. They put it in there because they saw shields in PvP are overperforming, and in need of a nerf - that, or a counter.
Nerfing is understandably unpopular (just imagine the forums - shieldbreaker whines are nothing compared to what you'd get), not to mention affecting PvE as well, so counter it was.
Personally i would have preferred a different solution than a set. Maybe give some abilities a natural shield-piercing property so that players who want to counter shields don't have to wrap their whole build around the idea. But - you take what you can get.
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Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Kinda like shields, eh? Except reversed, of course - those are useless in only one situation, OP in all others.
If that kind of design is no issue for you, then please give us similar sets for other classes. That is: sets that completely wreck that class within 10 secs by only spamming light attacks.
You are aware that any competent sorc will kill your light attack spamming behind twice over in the same time period, yes?
"Completely wreck" indeed...
You just don't have any idea what you are talking about.
You aren't using the most stupid opponent there is someone who should never ever be a threat to an exceptional player yet this set gives everyone, even a 65k health tank the opportunity to apply 3.5k oblivion dps on an enemy that is actively defending himself with the tools his class is build around.
"He should never be a threat". And why, exactly, should he not be a threat?
Gotta love these "rules" players invent for themselves and then get mad when others don't follow them.
I don't think i can explain it to someone who isn't able to understand it on their own.
I hope @Derra can do it in an appropriate way
I'll happily explain it.
Somebody who shouldn't be a threat because they are terrible players, shouldn't instantly become a threat to decent players of one class just by equipping a single set.Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.2 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭Kinda like shields, eh? Except reversed, of course - those are useless in only one situation, OP in all others.
If that kind of design is no issue for you, then please give us similar sets for other classes. That is: sets that completely wreck that class within 10 secs by only spamming light attacks.
You are aware that any competent sorc will kill your light attack spamming behind twice over in the same time period, yes?
"Completely wreck" indeed...
Not if I build a max resistance 40k hp heavy armor tank that spams bow light attacks.
Vigor and Cloak immediately after Curse is cast.
CC the sorc after curse is cast.
Pop an immovable.
Make up your mind. Either all you need is a set to completely wreck a sorc "by only spamming light attacks" - or you need to be a 40K hp nightblade who also uses other abilities to defeat the sorc. Can't have it both ways.
can't have what both ways?
You said a sorc would kill the LA spammer twice over in 10 seconds. I presented 4 situations in which your statement is untrue. Those are all viable counters to the sorc combo. My mind is made up. Shield Breaker is overperforming. Period.dwemer_paleologist wrote: »Kinda like shields, eh? Except reversed, of course - those are useless in only one situation, OP in all others.
If that kind of design is no issue for you, then please give us similar sets for other classes. That is: sets that completely wreck that class within 10 secs by only spamming light attacks.
You are aware that any competent sorc will kill your light attack spamming behind twice over in the same time period, yes?
"Completely wreck" indeed...
You just don't have any idea what you are talking about.
You aren't using the most stupid opponent there is someone who should never ever be a threat to an exceptional player yet this set gives everyone, even a 65k health tank the opportunity to apply 3.5k oblivion dps on an enemy that is actively defending himself with the tools his class is build around.
"He should never be a threat". And why, exactly, should he not be a threat?
Gotta love these "rules" players invent for themselves and then get mad when others don't follow them.
well said, all truth.
that is exactly what is happening here.
That 65k hp tank should not be a threat damage wise.
These aren't "rules". it's logic based on math, and ESO combat is largely a math battle.
ESO combat has 3 main categories; damage (d),mitigation (m) and sustain (s). For simplicity lets say each category has a base stat 1 and a fully built character can distribute 3 additional points.
A 65k hp tank would have the following ratings: d-1, m-3,s-2
A balanced build would have the following: d-2, m-2, s-2
Logically, a d-1 rating won't be able to beat a m-2 rating,and these 2 builds fighting each other would come to a stalemate.
Shieldbreaker defies that logic. a 65k hp tank can still have a m-3 rating but it's damage rating goes from d-1 to >d-3 once it faces a magicka sorc.3 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don´t think i even want to try.
The discussion is fundamentally flawed in many ways and people defending shieldbreaker do it mainly resulting from frustration over their own incompetence (these days).
The feeling of helplessness against shields is imo largely created by the games terrible UI design that hinders the player fighting a shielding sorc from any proper assessment of the situation regarding their opponents health + their own dmg output.
Currently you never see the pressure you put on your opponent and even if you might have had them on the verge of dying within 1 or 2 gcds you´ll never know due to the awful design of shieldbars.
The main issue i personally have with shieldbreaker isn´t it´s existance in the first place. It´s that as a sorc i have no choice in the defense i use (and that equivalents do not exist against block/dodge/cloak/purge - to name other powerful defense mechanics).
I´d get the notion about shields if sorcs had a legitimate choice about how they´d defend themselves but they still chose shields - but there is none. So in the end it´s a poorly designed set that offers no way to play around it for the class it hardcounters (and i think hardcounters shouldn´t be a thing in a game like eso at all - i´d scrap detect pots/mark alongside shieldbreaker and any other form of obliviondmg).
Luckily it´s almost exclusively utilized by underperforming players who then proceed to put back of their own feelings of frustration and helplessness back into the game one lightattack at a time and mostly still fail.
The way Shields are being displayed is by far the biggest contributor to why people constantly complain about sorcs being OP. It is not until you are on the receiving end that you realize how weak shields are. Sorcs have the same issue when they are fighting other sorcs. They apparently take no damage. But the damage and pressure are there, Sorcs can see that on their end. Because of this preception issue I would like for shields to simply be displayed as extended health (similar to when you increase your health via buff food). So to the opponent it would look like it currently does when you fight a healer. You see the HP drop and go up again.
As for the Shieldbreaker set, I disagree with you on this one Derra. I don't think there should be any Oblivion damage in this game (or at least not in it's current form). Why?
Because classes are balanced around their abilities and how the counter each other. The amount you heal is related to the amount of damage your opponents deal to you after mitigation - and vice versa. Something ignoring the mitigation in between is not accounted for and thus breaking the balance. This is most evident on the sorcs, as they have the smallest scope of defensive tools, i.e. they basically only have shields. Something ignoring these shields renders the sorc completely defensless and useless. Other classes are not affected as adversely by Oblivion damage as they got a broader spectrum of defensive tools to their disposal, most notably better heal which is argueably the only real "counter" to oblivion damage. Though the size of the heal is again proportionate to the damage dealt after mitigation, and thus not really up to par with oblivion damage.
You could see that when Sloads was introduced and the outcry it caused. Literally everybody was complaining because the abilities are simply not balanced to account for something that circumvents the mitigation. And surprise, surprise Sloads gets a nerf. Not nearly strong enough, but still it received a nerf. Unlike shield breaker, which only affects a minority and the majority does not care because they are not the ones receiving the beating but are in fact the ones (potentially) profiting from it.1 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Sharee
That’s not even true. I don’t think anyone would complain if Sorcs got rid of the boring shield stack mechanic - yes, it’s tedious and not fun to play - and instead got a reliable secondary defense. The issue is that everyone wants to get rid of shield stacking and give no secondary defense as compensation.
You also have to see that shields were nerfed already in duration and post Morrowind they aren’t as easy to keep up. Shieldbreaker is in the game because ZOS likes to sell DLC with the least effort involved. Creating a set is easier than actually overhauling the class.Edited by Feanor on July 16, 2018 7:03AMMain characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"shields were nerfed already in duration" - shields never last longer than 6 seconds under fire anyway, so all this did was to make a sorc who is not under fire recast his shields to feel safe. It had no effect for sorcs actually in combat.
"Shieldbreaker is in the game because ZOS likes to sell DLC with the least effort involved." - not even you could possibly believe that BS. People bought DLC because of shieldbreaker? Please. 98% of the DLC buyers don't even pvp.2 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"shields were nerfed already in duration" - shields never last longer than 6 seconds under fire anyway, so all this did was to make a sorc who is not under fire recast his shields to feel safe. It had no effect for sorcs actually in combat.
"Shieldbreaker is in the game because ZOS likes to sell DLC with the least effort involved." - not even you could possibly believe that BS. People bought DLC because of shieldbreaker? Please. 98% of the DLC buyers don't even pvp.
If you don’t understand the strain on sustain and instead put up made up numbers there isn’t much to objectively discuss with you. Have a good day.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.3 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We all agree that the main problem are stacked shields. So let's change this set so it deals it's damage ONLY when someone have more than one shield on him. Penalises shieldstack while not disabling completely the only defence sorcs have.I'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.0 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭We all agree that the main problem are stacked shields. So let's change this set so it deals it's damage ONLY when someone have more than one shield on him. Penalises shieldstack while not disabling completely the only defence sorcs have.
Why not making it: Increase your damage done to players who have a damge shield on them by 20%.
Still strong and finally not overperforming.1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"shields were nerfed already in duration" - shields never last longer than 6 seconds under fire anyway, so all this did was to make a sorc who is not under fire recast his shields to feel safe. It had no effect for sorcs actually in combat.
"Shieldbreaker is in the game because ZOS likes to sell DLC with the least effort involved." - not even you could possibly believe that BS. People bought DLC because of shieldbreaker? Please. 98% of the DLC buyers don't even pvp.
If you don’t understand the strain on sustain and instead put up made up numbers there isn’t much to objectively discuss with you. Have a good day.
What made up numbers? ESO has millions of active accounts. Do you see millions of players in cyrodiil? Me neither.1 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"shields were nerfed already in duration" - shields never last longer than 6 seconds under fire anyway, so all this did was to make a sorc who is not under fire recast his shields to feel safe. It had no effect for sorcs actually in combat.
"Shieldbreaker is in the game because ZOS likes to sell DLC with the least effort involved." - not even you could possibly believe that BS. People bought DLC because of shieldbreaker? Please. 98% of the DLC buyers don't even pvp.
If you don’t understand the strain on sustain and instead put up made up numbers there isn’t much to objectively discuss with you. Have a good day.
What made up numbers? ESO has millions of active accounts. Do you see millions of players in cyrodiil? Me neither.
ESO has millions of sold accounts. I very much doubt the number of active players at any given time exceeds a five figure number.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.1 -
Sun7dance✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Stacking shields is the main problem, yes!
Remove that and sorcs would be still good, coz of their range play, which is much more easier to master in pvp.PS5|EU1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"shields were nerfed already in duration" - shields never last longer than 6 seconds under fire anyway, so all this did was to make a sorc who is not under fire recast his shields to feel safe. It had no effect for sorcs actually in combat.
"Shieldbreaker is in the game because ZOS likes to sell DLC with the least effort involved." - not even you could possibly believe that BS. People bought DLC because of shieldbreaker? Please. 98% of the DLC buyers don't even pvp.
If you don’t understand the strain on sustain and instead put up made up numbers there isn’t much to objectively discuss with you. Have a good day.
What made up numbers? ESO has millions of active accounts. Do you see millions of players in cyrodiil? Me neither.
ESO has millions of sold accounts. I very much doubt the number of active players at any given time exceeds a five figure number.Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »According to an article on MCV mcvuk.com/articles/publishing/ten-million-in-tamriel-the-slow-build-success-story-of-elder-scrolls-online published just 2 days ago indicates that the actual active playerbase month-to-month is in fact far smaller than the 10 million milestone ZOS likes to boast. The actual number is 2.5 million players, which is still a healthy number for an MMO, but by far nothing close to the very misleading number reflective of players that have made accounts over the life of the game.
Theres still a question of how many of those 2.5 million are actual players and not bots. But at least we now know that the game is indeed healthy.
EDIT: Fixed link to article.0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stacking shields is the main problem, yes!
Remove that and sorcs would be still good, coz of their range play, which is much more easier to master in pvp.
Range is an illusion if you're not on a keep wall.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.2