No changes to shieldbreaker?

Feanor

@Mojomonkeyman

Just read page 9 onwards of the Sorc PTS thread for Update 18. It’s all there. ZOS just doesn’t listen. All I’m concerned with is that the nerfs don’t go overboard.

Btw, I acknowledge Sorc has it miles better than magWarden. I don’t understand the changes and missing buffs there.

Gnozo

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

The problem is sorcs refuse to play there class any other way I have magnb In heavy that doesn’t use cloak & has a burst heal they refuse to see you don’t have to go class cannon shields & be in all light armour to make the class work

Medium or heavy Armour has no synergy with magSorc at all. Besides, whom are you going to kill without the added penetration and cost reduction of light Armour? If I want to zerg up I can do that on any other class as well.

How is a magicka class a) depending on block and heavy armor mitigation to survive (more strain on stam = less offensive power due to investment in defensive pools) , b) having less burst potential, c) having no execute and finally d) having no native access to unblockable/undodgable cc ever going to kill something? Yeah, poor sorcs have it so bad...

Sorc double standards are hilarious. You guys really are the new nightblades.

I love how most of you guys justified a lot of the sorc privileges by making a point that burst is highly delayed/telegraphed (= being counterable) over the course of the past years, yet you have received a foolproof (no fail cast possible) unblockable/undodgable dmg cc that is eliminating any counterplay (real counterplay, in the sense of doing x to prevent y to happen). Still waiting to see some sorc show a little decency and highlight how that is elevating sorc to a whole new and unhealthy level by eliminating its main weakness.

Such a cc has no place in the sorc template, justifying huge burst and finishing potential paired with top mobility (compared to other magicka classes) has to be offset by being easy to counter. There was a time when even sorcs were sensible enough to see that.

And why are you guys conveniently forgetting to add passive boosts to shields (introduction of defensive ultimates (resto ultimate) and sets (pirate skeleton)) providing major protection on demand to the discussion about whether shields are still overperforming or not? It's not new, but to say shields have only been nerfed (compared to ancient times) is not properly assessing the full picture.

I have given up hope on sorcs being able to give better balance input than the devs, in my honest opinion summerset has proven that all you are interested in is "buff my class", no matter the state of the class or whether it actually would need a little toning down.

Not at all. Most sorcs said on the pts that cage would over-perform.. Hell, I was saying that even before the damage was added - when they made it unblockabe/undodgeable..

Cage is wrong, Shieldbreaker is wrong.

Two wrongs don't make a right - but while most sorcs want both nerfed, so many non-sorcs want to see cage gone but shieldbreaker remain.....?

Yet pretty much all magsorcs recently tend to state things like "rune cage hasn't changed except dmg compared to last patch = damage must be the problem!" No, its not. You guys know why it is a problem, because it eliminates any real counterplay to the very potent sorc burst (which is essential to keep a huge burst class in check, counterplay).

You guys know that masterstaff has been so popular that people have been using it, despite rune cage already being the better choice. You guys know that it takes about 3-6 months for every OP thing to even get noticed by the majority of players. It took even another totally uncalled buff and huge PTS advertisement ("wooooow, this magsorc on PTS is beating everyone with meteor -rune cage" - threads) to make its imbalance obvious to most.

Yet, you desperately try to keep the real imbalance and try to enforced fake-nerfs that won't touch the real problem, because it benefits you.

I play a lot of sorc. I know how strong rune cage is. I know this and i want it to be changed.

Remove damage, reduce duration to 2 seconds cc and make it more responsive like fossilize.

Atm the cc animation in clunky. You stand still and kneel down kinda slow. It need to be instant like fossilize so you can break free much more faster.

Either this or Change rune cage completly and give Frag its CC back.

Edit: Shieldbreaker is still broken and needs a rework.

Derra

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

The problem is sorcs refuse to play there class any other way I have magnb In heavy that doesn’t use cloak & has a burst heal they refuse to see you don’t have to go class cannon shields & be in all light armour to make the class work

Medium or heavy Armour has no synergy with magSorc at all. Besides, whom are you going to kill without the added penetration and cost reduction of light Armour? If I want to zerg up I can do that on any other class as well.

How is a magicka class a) depending on block and heavy armor mitigation to survive (more strain on stam = less offensive power due to investment in defensive pools) , b) having less burst potential, c) having no execute and finally d) having no native access to unblockable/undodgable cc ever going to kill something? Yeah, poor sorcs have it so bad...

Sorc double standards are hilarious. You guys really are the new nightblades.

I love how most of you guys justified a lot of the sorc privileges by making a point that burst is highly delayed/telegraphed (= being counterable) over the course of the past years, yet you have received a foolproof (no fail cast possible) unblockable/undodgable dmg cc that is eliminating any counterplay (real counterplay, in the sense of doing x to prevent y to happen). Still waiting to see some sorc show a little decency and highlight how that is elevating sorc to a whole new and unhealthy level by eliminating its main weakness.

None of the sorcs you argue with wants runecage to stay as it is. I don´t know a single competent sorc that wants runecage to stay at all. Everyone wants it gone rather today than tomorrow.

How is that any relevant for the arguments being made here though?
How does one imbalance justify the other?

Ragnaroek93

This is now a nerf sorc thread

White wabbit

New idea for this set!
5th peice immune at all times to rune cage

Emma_Overload

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

The problem is sorcs refuse to play there class any other way I have magnb In heavy that doesn’t use cloak & has a burst heal they refuse to see you don’t have to go class cannon shields & be in all light armour to make the class work

Medium or heavy Armour has no synergy with magSorc at all. Besides, whom are you going to kill without the added penetration and cost reduction of light Armour? If I want to zerg up I can do that on any other class as well.

How is a magicka class a) depending on block and heavy armor mitigation to survive (more strain on stam = less offensive power due to investment in defensive pools) , b) having less burst potential, c) having no execute and finally d) having no native access to unblockable/undodgable cc ever going to kill something? Yeah, poor sorcs have it so bad...

Sorc double standards are hilarious. You guys really are the new nightblades.

I love how most of you guys justified a lot of the sorc privileges by making a point that burst is highly delayed/telegraphed (= being counterable) over the course of the past years, yet you have received a foolproof (no fail cast possible) unblockable/undodgable dmg cc that is eliminating any counterplay (real counterplay, in the sense of doing x to prevent y to happen). Still waiting to see some sorc show a little decency and highlight how that is elevating sorc to a whole new and unhealthy level by eliminating its main weakness.

Such a cc has no place in the sorc template, justifying huge burst and finishing potential paired with top range & mobility (compared to other magicka classes) has to be offset by being easy to counter. There was a time when even sorcs were sensible enough to see that.

And why are you guys conveniently forgetting to add passive boosts to shields (introduction of defensive ultimates (resto ultimate) and sets (pirate skeleton)) providing major protection on demand to the discussion about whether shields are still overperforming or not? It's not new, but to say shields have only been nerfed (compared to ancient times) is not properly assessing the full picture.

I have given up hope on sorcs being able to give better balance input than the devs, in my honest opinion summerset has proven that all you are interested in is "buff my class", no matter the state of the class or whether it actually would need a little toning down.

Did you really just mention Pirate Skeleton? A set that was hit with a targeted nerf designed solely to screw over Sorcs and take away the synergy we had with that set?

And did you really just mention Major Protection? When healing and mitigation builds have DOZENS AND DOZENS of buffs and passives and gear sets that cater to them? Sorcs have Necropotence, Bastion CP and Major/Minor Protection... that's it!

BohnT

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

The problem is sorcs refuse to play there class any other way I have magnb In heavy that doesn’t use cloak & has a burst heal they refuse to see you don’t have to go class cannon shields & be in all light armour to make the class work

Medium or heavy Armour has no synergy with magSorc at all. Besides, whom are you going to kill without the added penetration and cost reduction of light Armour? If I want to zerg up I can do that on any other class as well.

How is a magicka class a) depending on block and heavy armor mitigation to survive (more strain on stam = less offensive power due to investment in defensive pools) , b) having less burst potential, c) having no execute and finally d) having no native access to unblockable/undodgable cc ever going to kill something? Yeah, poor sorcs have it so bad...

Sorc double standards are hilarious. You guys really are the new nightblades.

I love how most of you guys justified a lot of the sorc privileges by making a point that burst is highly delayed/telegraphed (= being counterable) over the course of the past years, yet you have received a foolproof (no fail cast possible) unblockable/undodgable dmg cc that is eliminating any counterplay (real counterplay, in the sense of doing x to prevent y to happen). Still waiting to see some sorc show a little decency and highlight how that is elevating sorc to a whole new and unhealthy level by eliminating its main weakness.

Such a cc has no place in the sorc template, justifying huge burst and finishing potential paired with top range & mobility (compared to other magicka classes) has to be offset by being easy to counter. There was a time when even sorcs were sensible enough to see that.

And why are you guys conveniently forgetting to add passive boosts to shields (introduction of defensive ultimates (resto ultimate) and sets (pirate skeleton)) providing major protection on demand to the discussion about whether shields are still overperforming or not? It's not new, but to say shields have only been nerfed (compared to ancient times) is not properly assessing the full picture.

I have given up hope on sorcs being able to give better balance input than the devs, in my honest opinion summerset has proven that all you are interested in is "buff my class", no matter the state of the class or whether it actually would need a little toning down.

Did you really just mention Pirate Skeleton? A set that was hit with a targeted nerf designed solely to screw over Sorcs and take away the synergy we had with that set?

And did you really just mention Major Protection? When healing and mitigation builds have DOZENS AND DOZENS of buffs and passives and gear sets that cater to them? Sorcs have Necropotence, Bastion CP and Major/Minor Protection... that's it!

All those things you mention, i wonder why people don't cry more about those unkillable stamdks with all their healing and stuff.

Also let's not forget about minor maim, it's not hard to have good uptime at this time as people go back to force pulse, i think @Derra made some duels a few months agago and the uptime on minor maim was ~80% iirc, only by using force pulse (and charged? I'm not sure atm)

Dozens and dozens of buffs and still major defile beats them all.
I won't argue too long about shields being better than healing or the healing being better than shields, that has been discussed countless times and in the end it comes down that you can't compare them perfectly as both have advantages and drawbacks.

However you are far more likely to meet someone who counters your healing buffs rather than meeting someone who will negate your increased shield strength.

Derra

BohnT wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

The problem is sorcs refuse to play there class any other way I have magnb In heavy that doesn’t use cloak & has a burst heal they refuse to see you don’t have to go class cannon shields & be in all light armour to make the class work

Medium or heavy Armour has no synergy with magSorc at all. Besides, whom are you going to kill without the added penetration and cost reduction of light Armour? If I want to zerg up I can do that on any other class as well.

How is a magicka class a) depending on block and heavy armor mitigation to survive (more strain on stam = less offensive power due to investment in defensive pools) , b) having less burst potential, c) having no execute and finally d) having no native access to unblockable/undodgable cc ever going to kill something? Yeah, poor sorcs have it so bad...

Sorc double standards are hilarious. You guys really are the new nightblades.

I love how most of you guys justified a lot of the sorc privileges by making a point that burst is highly delayed/telegraphed (= being counterable) over the course of the past years, yet you have received a foolproof (no fail cast possible) unblockable/undodgable dmg cc that is eliminating any counterplay (real counterplay, in the sense of doing x to prevent y to happen). Still waiting to see some sorc show a little decency and highlight how that is elevating sorc to a whole new and unhealthy level by eliminating its main weakness.

Such a cc has no place in the sorc template, justifying huge burst and finishing potential paired with top range & mobility (compared to other magicka classes) has to be offset by being easy to counter. There was a time when even sorcs were sensible enough to see that.

And why are you guys conveniently forgetting to add passive boosts to shields (introduction of defensive ultimates (resto ultimate) and sets (pirate skeleton)) providing major protection on demand to the discussion about whether shields are still overperforming or not? It's not new, but to say shields have only been nerfed (compared to ancient times) is not properly assessing the full picture.

I have given up hope on sorcs being able to give better balance input than the devs, in my honest opinion summerset has proven that all you are interested in is "buff my class", no matter the state of the class or whether it actually would need a little toning down.

Did you really just mention Pirate Skeleton? A set that was hit with a targeted nerf designed solely to screw over Sorcs and take away the synergy we had with that set?

And did you really just mention Major Protection? When healing and mitigation builds have DOZENS AND DOZENS of buffs and passives and gear sets that cater to them? Sorcs have Necropotence, Bastion CP and Major/Minor Protection... that's it!

All those things you mention, i wonder why people don't cry more about those unkillable stamdks with all their healing and stuff.

Also let's not forget about minor maim, it's not hard to have good uptime at this time as people go back to force pulse, i think @Derra made some duels a few months agago and the uptime on minor maim was ~80% iirc, only by using force pulse (and charged? I'm not sure atm)

Dozens and dozens of buffs and still major defile beats them all.
I won't argue too long about shields being better than healing or the healing being better than shields, that has been discussed countless times and in the end it comes down that you can't compare them perfectly as both have advantages and drawbacks.

However you are far more likely to meet someone who counters your healing buffs rather than meeting someone who will negate your increased shield strength.

it´s prettymuch unisono in every debate that healdebuffs are overperforming aswell?

BohnT

Derra wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

The problem is sorcs refuse to play there class any other way I have magnb In heavy that doesn’t use cloak & has a burst heal they refuse to see you don’t have to go class cannon shields & be in all light armour to make the class work

Medium or heavy Armour has no synergy with magSorc at all. Besides, whom are you going to kill without the added penetration and cost reduction of light Armour? If I want to zerg up I can do that on any other class as well.

How is a magicka class a) depending on block and heavy armor mitigation to survive (more strain on stam = less offensive power due to investment in defensive pools) , b) having less burst potential, c) having no execute and finally d) having no native access to unblockable/undodgable cc ever going to kill something? Yeah, poor sorcs have it so bad...

Sorc double standards are hilarious. You guys really are the new nightblades.

I love how most of you guys justified a lot of the sorc privileges by making a point that burst is highly delayed/telegraphed (= being counterable) over the course of the past years, yet you have received a foolproof (no fail cast possible) unblockable/undodgable dmg cc that is eliminating any counterplay (real counterplay, in the sense of doing x to prevent y to happen). Still waiting to see some sorc show a little decency and highlight how that is elevating sorc to a whole new and unhealthy level by eliminating its main weakness.

Such a cc has no place in the sorc template, justifying huge burst and finishing potential paired with top range & mobility (compared to other magicka classes) has to be offset by being easy to counter. There was a time when even sorcs were sensible enough to see that.

And why are you guys conveniently forgetting to add passive boosts to shields (introduction of defensive ultimates (resto ultimate) and sets (pirate skeleton)) providing major protection on demand to the discussion about whether shields are still overperforming or not? It's not new, but to say shields have only been nerfed (compared to ancient times) is not properly assessing the full picture.

I have given up hope on sorcs being able to give better balance input than the devs, in my honest opinion summerset has proven that all you are interested in is "buff my class", no matter the state of the class or whether it actually would need a little toning down.

Did you really just mention Pirate Skeleton? A set that was hit with a targeted nerf designed solely to screw over Sorcs and take away the synergy we had with that set?

And did you really just mention Major Protection? When healing and mitigation builds have DOZENS AND DOZENS of buffs and passives and gear sets that cater to them? Sorcs have Necropotence, Bastion CP and Major/Minor Protection... that's it!

All those things you mention, i wonder why people don't cry more about those unkillable stamdks with all their healing and stuff.

Also let's not forget about minor maim, it's not hard to have good uptime at this time as people go back to force pulse, i think @Derra made some duels a few months agago and the uptime on minor maim was ~80% iirc, only by using force pulse (and charged? I'm not sure atm)

Dozens and dozens of buffs and still major defile beats them all.
I won't argue too long about shields being better than healing or the healing being better than shields, that has been discussed countless times and in the end it comes down that you can't compare them perfectly as both have advantages and drawbacks.

However you are far more likely to meet someone who counters your healing buffs rather than meeting someone who will negate your increased shield strength.

it´s prettymuch unisono in every debate that healdebuffs are overperforming aswell?

They are but the comment made it look like heals are so much better than shields and the "but x is so much worse" comments are just destructive.

Every single overperfoming mechanic in this game has to be touched and be brought in line with balanced mechanics, not streamlined but balanced.

White wabbit

Heals and debuffs start your own topic as this is derailing the thread

Derra

BohnT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

The problem is sorcs refuse to play there class any other way I have magnb In heavy that doesn’t use cloak & has a burst heal they refuse to see you don’t have to go class cannon shields & be in all light armour to make the class work

Medium or heavy Armour has no synergy with magSorc at all. Besides, whom are you going to kill without the added penetration and cost reduction of light Armour? If I want to zerg up I can do that on any other class as well.

How is a magicka class a) depending on block and heavy armor mitigation to survive (more strain on stam = less offensive power due to investment in defensive pools) , b) having less burst potential, c) having no execute and finally d) having no native access to unblockable/undodgable cc ever going to kill something? Yeah, poor sorcs have it so bad...

Sorc double standards are hilarious. You guys really are the new nightblades.

I love how most of you guys justified a lot of the sorc privileges by making a point that burst is highly delayed/telegraphed (= being counterable) over the course of the past years, yet you have received a foolproof (no fail cast possible) unblockable/undodgable dmg cc that is eliminating any counterplay (real counterplay, in the sense of doing x to prevent y to happen). Still waiting to see some sorc show a little decency and highlight how that is elevating sorc to a whole new and unhealthy level by eliminating its main weakness.

Such a cc has no place in the sorc template, justifying huge burst and finishing potential paired with top range & mobility (compared to other magicka classes) has to be offset by being easy to counter. There was a time when even sorcs were sensible enough to see that.

And why are you guys conveniently forgetting to add passive boosts to shields (introduction of defensive ultimates (resto ultimate) and sets (pirate skeleton)) providing major protection on demand to the discussion about whether shields are still overperforming or not? It's not new, but to say shields have only been nerfed (compared to ancient times) is not properly assessing the full picture.

I have given up hope on sorcs being able to give better balance input than the devs, in my honest opinion summerset has proven that all you are interested in is "buff my class", no matter the state of the class or whether it actually would need a little toning down.

Did you really just mention Pirate Skeleton? A set that was hit with a targeted nerf designed solely to screw over Sorcs and take away the synergy we had with that set?

And did you really just mention Major Protection? When healing and mitigation builds have DOZENS AND DOZENS of buffs and passives and gear sets that cater to them? Sorcs have Necropotence, Bastion CP and Major/Minor Protection... that's it!

All those things you mention, i wonder why people don't cry more about those unkillable stamdks with all their healing and stuff.

Also let's not forget about minor maim, it's not hard to have good uptime at this time as people go back to force pulse, i think @Derra made some duels a few months agago and the uptime on minor maim was ~80% iirc, only by using force pulse (and charged? I'm not sure atm)

Dozens and dozens of buffs and still major defile beats them all.
I won't argue too long about shields being better than healing or the healing being better than shields, that has been discussed countless times and in the end it comes down that you can't compare them perfectly as both have advantages and drawbacks.

However you are far more likely to meet someone who counters your healing buffs rather than meeting someone who will negate your increased shield strength.

it´s prettymuch unisono in every debate that healdebuffs are overperforming aswell?

They are but the comment made it look like heals are so much better than shields and the "but x is so much worse" comments are just destructive.

Every single overperfoming mechanic in this game has to be touched and be brought in line with balanced mechanics, not streamlined but balanced.

No wrong!!! We need op mechanic 1 that we don´t use to justify the existance of op mechanic 2 which we use.

IAVITNI

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

The problem is sorcs refuse to play there class any other way I have magnb In heavy that doesn’t use cloak & has a burst heal they refuse to see you don’t have to go class cannon shields & be in all light armour to make the class work

Medium or heavy Armour has no synergy with magSorc at all. Besides, whom are you going to kill without the added penetration and cost reduction of light Armour? If I want to zerg up I can do that on any other class as well.

How is a magicka class a) depending on block and heavy armor mitigation to survive (more strain on stam = less offensive power due to investment in defensive pools) , b) having less burst potential, c) having no execute and finally d) having no native access to unblockable/undodgable cc ever going to kill something? Yeah, poor sorcs have it so bad...

Sorc double standards are hilarious. You guys really are the new nightblades.

I love how most of you guys justified a lot of the sorc privileges by making a point that burst is highly delayed/telegraphed (= being counterable) over the course of the past years, yet you have received a foolproof (no fail cast possible) unblockable/undodgable dmg cc that is eliminating any counterplay (real counterplay, in the sense of doing x to prevent y to happen). Still waiting to see some sorc show a little decency and highlight how that is elevating sorc to a whole new and unhealthy level by eliminating its main weakness.

Such a cc has no place in the sorc template, justifying huge burst and finishing potential paired with top mobility (compared to other magicka classes) has to be offset by being easy to counter. There was a time when even sorcs were sensible enough to see that.

And why are you guys conveniently forgetting to add passive boosts to shields (introduction of defensive ultimates (resto ultimate) and sets (pirate skeleton)) providing major protection on demand to the discussion about whether shields are still overperforming or not? It's not new, but to say shields have only been nerfed (compared to ancient times) is not properly assessing the full picture.

I have given up hope on sorcs being able to give better balance input than the devs, in my honest opinion summerset has proven that all you are interested in is "buff my class", no matter the state of the class or whether it actually would need a little toning down.

Not at all. Most sorcs said on the pts that cage would over-perform.. Hell, I was saying that even before the damage was added - when they made it unblockabe/undodgeable..

Cage is wrong, Shieldbreaker is wrong.

Two wrongs don't make a right - but while most sorcs want both nerfed, so many non-sorcs want to see cage gone but shieldbreaker remain.....?

Yet pretty much all magsorcs recently tend to state things like "rune cage hasn't changed except dmg compared to last patch = damage must be the problem!" No, its not. You guys know why it is a problem, because it eliminates any real counterplay to the very potent sorc burst (which is essential to keep a huge burst class in check, counterplay).

You guys know that masterstaff has been so popular that people have been using it, despite rune cage already being the better choice. You guys know that it takes about 3-6 months for every OP thing to even get noticed by the majority of players. It took even another totally uncalled buff and huge PTS advertisement ("wooooow, this magsorc on PTS is beating everyone with meteor -rune cage" - threads) to make its imbalance obvious to most.

Yet, you desperately try to keep the real imbalance and try to enforced fake-nerfs that won't touch the real problem, because it benefits you.

Partially disagree with you here.

First most of the magsorc mains called out the Rune Cage problem after the first week of PTS. By Mains I mean people who actually understand how the class works both in a vacuum and relative to other classes, not simply those who defend sorc.

Second, the Rune Cage damage is much more significant than people realize in open world. After the the frag nerf, sorcs lost a gcd and about around 1.5k tooltip damage if they didn't rune Master+Clench. I've basically run the same build since homestead only swapping between Infernal and Engine Guardian and skills/Jewlerry glyphs/traits (i've tested out every meta and my own ideas,still like my original). The difference may not seem like much, but it's often the difference between 26% and 25%, which equates to an avg. 12k tooltip difference.

Too be fair I was a DW main until SS (and hopefully will be again one day) so the difference was far more noticeable for me. I ran Rune Cage with a destro as well prior to the damage buff, kill potential was much better than DW but still required a a sense of timing because the burst was always just short if my opponent had an active defence (i.e. they weren't potatoes). It's current iteration on live takes no effort at all, due to the damage from Rune Cage and the fact that overall damage has gone up across the board and many players have refused to adapt.

Taking ALL the damage off makes a noticeable difference. Trading a GCD for a stun doesn't seem like much but that extra GCD means our shields have expired. I've had to spec more into stam sustain because some kills require that I drop my shields and roll dodge. I don't think the 20% nerf was enough, but removing the damage and decreasing the cost could theoretically balance the skill.

Every other CC does a lot more than just CC. Rune Cage's only function is the stun. Trading all damage and any potential utility for a potential (no longer guaranteed) seems like a fair trade.

Twohothardware

Shield Breaker doesn't need to be nerfed until MagSorc can no longer run 3 Shields. You should have to choose between Hardened Ward and Harness Magicka.

Sylas_Orin

This set is fine, as it's only meant to play against one type of player; the shieldstacker.

Yes, it's from a time when damage shields on Sorcs were OP as ***, but it is a counterplay against a certain playstyle that only a few classes and players utilize.

IZZEFlameLash

Feanor wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I use this set shamelessly and without discrimination.

I also use resource poisons, have about 11% into the Siphoner CP and get hate whispers all the time for it but honestly IDGAF at this point. Everyone and their mother is an infinite sustain, instagib Overload Sorc in PvP nowadays that I really don't feel bad about any of it.

"Shieldbreaker is cheese"
So is having an unblockable, undodgable burst combo from 40m away while also having 40k shield on top of it all so f*** off with your whiney attitude.

Don't forget about 5k spell damage, 60k magicka and 10k mag regen that mag sorcs have.

Stop with the nonsensical fictional stats. You make yourself look bad with these lies.

He was sarcastic.

I mean, I don't want any newbies getting the wrong idea with those mythical stats only possible with emp buff on top of Imperial Physique maybe. Don't really want any Sorc changes other than maybe Rune Cage. Even Wrobel might believe this fictional stat.

Drakkdjinn

Mayrael wrote: »

Since we have more and more oblivion damage in the game (sload, knight slayer, oblivion enchants with infused and torugs) can we rewrok shieldbreaker already? I mean like what the ... is this? 100% guaranteed 2k oblivion damage without cool down on light attack that can be spammed without any costs 2 times/s? Seems legit to me.

If it goes to me 2s cool down would be enough to leave it useful but not max cheese.

Or can we have exactly the same set but called block breaker and another one roll breaker?

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Outcheese'd your cheese, sounds like.

Feanor

Twohothardware wrote: »

Shield Breaker doesn't need to be nerfed until MagSorc can no longer run 3 Shields. You should have to choose between Hardened Ward and Harness Magicka.

There are a lot of Sorcs that run only two shields, and Harness isn’t on their bar. I’m one of them. Yet it doesn’t make a difference when it comes to SB. So no, it’s not about shield stacking at all. SB is a relic from a game version that had much lower damage across the game and was a lazy band-aid to begin with. It should have never been implemented, and removed post-haste.

Gnozo

Can i also pls get this set:

By looking at an enemy you put curse in him for 2 hours dealing 3k Oblivion damage every 1 second and healing yourself for the damage done. The curse stays on the enemy even after he died.

Oh and dont forget to put the perfect Version of this, wich deals 4k damage, into crown crates.

WeylandLabs

This thread is so entertaining ! Please don't stop complaining...

Mayrael

Twohothardware wrote: »

Shield Breaker doesn't need to be nerfed until MagSorc can no longer run 3 Shields. You should have to choose between Hardened Ward and Harness Magicka.

So once again, change it so it deals damage only on stacked shields. Problem? Or you just want ez kills on sorcs?

Derra

Mayrael wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Shield Breaker doesn't need to be nerfed until MagSorc can no longer run 3 Shields. You should have to choose between Hardened Ward and Harness Magicka.

So once again, change it so it deals damage only on stacked shields. Problem? Or you just want ez kills on sorcs?

make it deal like 700 obliviondmg per shield active on the target?

Mayrael

Derra wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Shield Breaker doesn't need to be nerfed until MagSorc can no longer run 3 Shields. You should have to choose between Hardened Ward and Harness Magicka.

So once again, change it so it deals damage only on stacked shields. Problem? Or you just want ez kills on sorcs?

make it deal like 700 obliviondmg per shield active on the target?

Seems ok to, for sure better than it is now.

Derra

IAVITNI wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

The problem is sorcs refuse to play there class any other way I have magnb In heavy that doesn’t use cloak & has a burst heal they refuse to see you don’t have to go class cannon shields & be in all light armour to make the class work

Medium or heavy Armour has no synergy with magSorc at all. Besides, whom are you going to kill without the added penetration and cost reduction of light Armour? If I want to zerg up I can do that on any other class as well.

How is a magicka class a) depending on block and heavy armor mitigation to survive (more strain on stam = less offensive power due to investment in defensive pools) , b) having less burst potential, c) having no execute and finally d) having no native access to unblockable/undodgable cc ever going to kill something? Yeah, poor sorcs have it so bad...

Sorc double standards are hilarious. You guys really are the new nightblades.

I love how most of you guys justified a lot of the sorc privileges by making a point that burst is highly delayed/telegraphed (= being counterable) over the course of the past years, yet you have received a foolproof (no fail cast possible) unblockable/undodgable dmg cc that is eliminating any counterplay (real counterplay, in the sense of doing x to prevent y to happen). Still waiting to see some sorc show a little decency and highlight how that is elevating sorc to a whole new and unhealthy level by eliminating its main weakness.

Such a cc has no place in the sorc template, justifying huge burst and finishing potential paired with top mobility (compared to other magicka classes) has to be offset by being easy to counter. There was a time when even sorcs were sensible enough to see that.

And why are you guys conveniently forgetting to add passive boosts to shields (introduction of defensive ultimates (resto ultimate) and sets (pirate skeleton)) providing major protection on demand to the discussion about whether shields are still overperforming or not? It's not new, but to say shields have only been nerfed (compared to ancient times) is not properly assessing the full picture.

I have given up hope on sorcs being able to give better balance input than the devs, in my honest opinion summerset has proven that all you are interested in is "buff my class", no matter the state of the class or whether it actually would need a little toning down.

Not at all. Most sorcs said on the pts that cage would over-perform.. Hell, I was saying that even before the damage was added - when they made it unblockabe/undodgeable..

Cage is wrong, Shieldbreaker is wrong.

Two wrongs don't make a right - but while most sorcs want both nerfed, so many non-sorcs want to see cage gone but shieldbreaker remain.....?

Yet pretty much all magsorcs recently tend to state things like "rune cage hasn't changed except dmg compared to last patch = damage must be the problem!" No, its not. You guys know why it is a problem, because it eliminates any real counterplay to the very potent sorc burst (which is essential to keep a huge burst class in check, counterplay).

You guys know that masterstaff has been so popular that people have been using it, despite rune cage already being the better choice. You guys know that it takes about 3-6 months for every OP thing to even get noticed by the majority of players. It took even another totally uncalled buff and huge PTS advertisement ("wooooow, this magsorc on PTS is beating everyone with meteor -rune cage" - threads) to make its imbalance obvious to most.

Yet, you desperately try to keep the real imbalance and try to enforced fake-nerfs that won't touch the real problem, because it benefits you.

Partially disagree with you here.

First most of the magsorc mains called out the Rune Cage problem after the first week of PTS. By Mains I mean people who actually understand how the class works both in a vacuum and relative to other classes, not simply those who defend sorc.

Second, the Rune Cage damage is much more significant than people realize in open world. After the the frag nerf, sorcs lost a gcd and about around 1.5k tooltip damage if they didn't rune Master+Clench. I've basically run the same build since homestead only swapping between Infernal and Engine Guardian and skills/Jewlerry glyphs/traits (i've tested out every meta and my own ideas,still like my original). The difference may not seem like much, but it's often the difference between 26% and 25%, which equates to an avg. 12k tooltip difference.

Too be fair I was a DW main until SS (and hopefully will be again one day) so the difference was far more noticeable for me. I ran Rune Cage with a destro as well prior to the damage buff, kill potential was much better than DW but still required a a sense of timing because the burst was always just short if my opponent had an active defence (i.e. they weren't potatoes). It's current iteration on live takes no effort at all, due to the damage from Rune Cage and the fact that overall damage has gone up across the board and many players have refused to adapt.

Taking ALL the damage off makes a noticeable difference. Trading a GCD for a stun doesn't seem like much but that extra GCD means our shields have expired. I've had to spec more into stam sustain because some kills require that I drop my shields and roll dodge. I don't think the 20% nerf was enough, but removing the damage and decreasing the cost could theoretically balance the skill.

Every other CC does a lot more than just CC. Rune Cage's only function is the stun. Trading all damage and any potential utility for a potential (no longer guaranteed) seems like a fair trade.

I have to say - having a ranged unavoidable stun will always be a balancing problem.

Imo if you want to have that functionality on sorc it should be on bolt escape + morphs (those would also prohibit the guaranteed hit of meteor + frags - you can´t hit frags after streak against someone who ccbreaks in time).

I´m not even sure sorc should have that functionality at all.

Mayrael

Derra wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

The problem is sorcs refuse to play there class any other way I have magnb In heavy that doesn’t use cloak & has a burst heal they refuse to see you don’t have to go class cannon shields & be in all light armour to make the class work

Medium or heavy Armour has no synergy with magSorc at all. Besides, whom are you going to kill without the added penetration and cost reduction of light Armour? If I want to zerg up I can do that on any other class as well.

How is a magicka class a) depending on block and heavy armor mitigation to survive (more strain on stam = less offensive power due to investment in defensive pools) , b) having less burst potential, c) having no execute and finally d) having no native access to unblockable/undodgable cc ever going to kill something? Yeah, poor sorcs have it so bad...

Sorc double standards are hilarious. You guys really are the new nightblades.

I love how most of you guys justified a lot of the sorc privileges by making a point that burst is highly delayed/telegraphed (= being counterable) over the course of the past years, yet you have received a foolproof (no fail cast possible) unblockable/undodgable dmg cc that is eliminating any counterplay (real counterplay, in the sense of doing x to prevent y to happen). Still waiting to see some sorc show a little decency and highlight how that is elevating sorc to a whole new and unhealthy level by eliminating its main weakness.

Such a cc has no place in the sorc template, justifying huge burst and finishing potential paired with top mobility (compared to other magicka classes) has to be offset by being easy to counter. There was a time when even sorcs were sensible enough to see that.

And why are you guys conveniently forgetting to add passive boosts to shields (introduction of defensive ultimates (resto ultimate) and sets (pirate skeleton)) providing major protection on demand to the discussion about whether shields are still overperforming or not? It's not new, but to say shields have only been nerfed (compared to ancient times) is not properly assessing the full picture.

I have given up hope on sorcs being able to give better balance input than the devs, in my honest opinion summerset has proven that all you are interested in is "buff my class", no matter the state of the class or whether it actually would need a little toning down.

Not at all. Most sorcs said on the pts that cage would over-perform.. Hell, I was saying that even before the damage was added - when they made it unblockabe/undodgeable..

Cage is wrong, Shieldbreaker is wrong.

Two wrongs don't make a right - but while most sorcs want both nerfed, so many non-sorcs want to see cage gone but shieldbreaker remain.....?

Yet pretty much all magsorcs recently tend to state things like "rune cage hasn't changed except dmg compared to last patch = damage must be the problem!" No, its not. You guys know why it is a problem, because it eliminates any real counterplay to the very potent sorc burst (which is essential to keep a huge burst class in check, counterplay).

You guys know that masterstaff has been so popular that people have been using it, despite rune cage already being the better choice. You guys know that it takes about 3-6 months for every OP thing to even get noticed by the majority of players. It took even another totally uncalled buff and huge PTS advertisement ("wooooow, this magsorc on PTS is beating everyone with meteor -rune cage" - threads) to make its imbalance obvious to most.

Yet, you desperately try to keep the real imbalance and try to enforced fake-nerfs that won't touch the real problem, because it benefits you.

Partially disagree with you here.

First most of the magsorc mains called out the Rune Cage problem after the first week of PTS. By Mains I mean people who actually understand how the class works both in a vacuum and relative to other classes, not simply those who defend sorc.

Second, the Rune Cage damage is much more significant than people realize in open world. After the the frag nerf, sorcs lost a gcd and about around 1.5k tooltip damage if they didn't rune Master+Clench. I've basically run the same build since homestead only swapping between Infernal and Engine Guardian and skills/Jewlerry glyphs/traits (i've tested out every meta and my own ideas,still like my original). The difference may not seem like much, but it's often the difference between 26% and 25%, which equates to an avg. 12k tooltip difference.

Too be fair I was a DW main until SS (and hopefully will be again one day) so the difference was far more noticeable for me. I ran Rune Cage with a destro as well prior to the damage buff, kill potential was much better than DW but still required a a sense of timing because the burst was always just short if my opponent had an active defence (i.e. they weren't potatoes). It's current iteration on live takes no effort at all, due to the damage from Rune Cage and the fact that overall damage has gone up across the board and many players have refused to adapt.

Taking ALL the damage off makes a noticeable difference. Trading a GCD for a stun doesn't seem like much but that extra GCD means our shields have expired. I've had to spec more into stam sustain because some kills require that I drop my shields and roll dodge. I don't think the 20% nerf was enough, but removing the damage and decreasing the cost could theoretically balance the skill.

Every other CC does a lot more than just CC. Rune Cage's only function is the stun. Trading all damage and any potential utility for a potential (no longer guaranteed) seems like a fair trade.

I have to say - having a ranged unavoidable stun will always be a balancing problem.

Imo if you want to have that functionality on sorc it should be on bolt escape + morphs (those would also prohibit the guaranteed hit of meteor + frags - you can´t hit frags after streak against someone who ccbreaks in time).

I´m not even sure sorc should have that functionality at all.

That's actually interesting idea to make streak work like that, but stun duration should be shortened to 2s at best. This would force sorcs to choose between more offensive build with streak or defensive with BoL. My only concern though would be it's aoe. An aoe inevitable stun combined with negate could be a bit OP.

Ragnaroek93

Derra wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

The problem is sorcs refuse to play there class any other way I have magnb In heavy that doesn’t use cloak & has a burst heal they refuse to see you don’t have to go class cannon shields & be in all light armour to make the class work

Medium or heavy Armour has no synergy with magSorc at all. Besides, whom are you going to kill without the added penetration and cost reduction of light Armour? If I want to zerg up I can do that on any other class as well.

How is a magicka class a) depending on block and heavy armor mitigation to survive (more strain on stam = less offensive power due to investment in defensive pools) , b) having less burst potential, c) having no execute and finally d) having no native access to unblockable/undodgable cc ever going to kill something? Yeah, poor sorcs have it so bad...

Sorc double standards are hilarious. You guys really are the new nightblades.

I love how most of you guys justified a lot of the sorc privileges by making a point that burst is highly delayed/telegraphed (= being counterable) over the course of the past years, yet you have received a foolproof (no fail cast possible) unblockable/undodgable dmg cc that is eliminating any counterplay (real counterplay, in the sense of doing x to prevent y to happen). Still waiting to see some sorc show a little decency and highlight how that is elevating sorc to a whole new and unhealthy level by eliminating its main weakness.

Such a cc has no place in the sorc template, justifying huge burst and finishing potential paired with top mobility (compared to other magicka classes) has to be offset by being easy to counter. There was a time when even sorcs were sensible enough to see that.

And why are you guys conveniently forgetting to add passive boosts to shields (introduction of defensive ultimates (resto ultimate) and sets (pirate skeleton)) providing major protection on demand to the discussion about whether shields are still overperforming or not? It's not new, but to say shields have only been nerfed (compared to ancient times) is not properly assessing the full picture.

I have given up hope on sorcs being able to give better balance input than the devs, in my honest opinion summerset has proven that all you are interested in is "buff my class", no matter the state of the class or whether it actually would need a little toning down.

Not at all. Most sorcs said on the pts that cage would over-perform.. Hell, I was saying that even before the damage was added - when they made it unblockabe/undodgeable..

Cage is wrong, Shieldbreaker is wrong.

Two wrongs don't make a right - but while most sorcs want both nerfed, so many non-sorcs want to see cage gone but shieldbreaker remain.....?

Yet pretty much all magsorcs recently tend to state things like "rune cage hasn't changed except dmg compared to last patch = damage must be the problem!" No, its not. You guys know why it is a problem, because it eliminates any real counterplay to the very potent sorc burst (which is essential to keep a huge burst class in check, counterplay).

You guys know that masterstaff has been so popular that people have been using it, despite rune cage already being the better choice. You guys know that it takes about 3-6 months for every OP thing to even get noticed by the majority of players. It took even another totally uncalled buff and huge PTS advertisement ("wooooow, this magsorc on PTS is beating everyone with meteor -rune cage" - threads) to make its imbalance obvious to most.

Yet, you desperately try to keep the real imbalance and try to enforced fake-nerfs that won't touch the real problem, because it benefits you.

Partially disagree with you here.

First most of the magsorc mains called out the Rune Cage problem after the first week of PTS. By Mains I mean people who actually understand how the class works both in a vacuum and relative to other classes, not simply those who defend sorc.

Second, the Rune Cage damage is much more significant than people realize in open world. After the the frag nerf, sorcs lost a gcd and about around 1.5k tooltip damage if they didn't rune Master+Clench. I've basically run the same build since homestead only swapping between Infernal and Engine Guardian and skills/Jewlerry glyphs/traits (i've tested out every meta and my own ideas,still like my original). The difference may not seem like much, but it's often the difference between 26% and 25%, which equates to an avg. 12k tooltip difference.

Too be fair I was a DW main until SS (and hopefully will be again one day) so the difference was far more noticeable for me. I ran Rune Cage with a destro as well prior to the damage buff, kill potential was much better than DW but still required a a sense of timing because the burst was always just short if my opponent had an active defence (i.e. they weren't potatoes). It's current iteration on live takes no effort at all, due to the damage from Rune Cage and the fact that overall damage has gone up across the board and many players have refused to adapt.

Taking ALL the damage off makes a noticeable difference. Trading a GCD for a stun doesn't seem like much but that extra GCD means our shields have expired. I've had to spec more into stam sustain because some kills require that I drop my shields and roll dodge. I don't think the 20% nerf was enough, but removing the damage and decreasing the cost could theoretically balance the skill.

Every other CC does a lot more than just CC. Rune Cage's only function is the stun. Trading all damage and any potential utility for a potential (no longer guaranteed) seems like a fair trade.

I have to say - having a ranged unavoidable stun will always be a balancing problem.

Imo if you want to have that functionality on sorc it should be on bolt escape + morphs (those would also prohibit the guaranteed hit of meteor + frags - you can´t hit frags after streak against someone who ccbreaks in time).

I´m not even sure sorc should have that functionality at all.

But... that would force duel hero sorcs to slot Streak

Good thing that Scamp will still stun

Derra

Mayrael wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

The problem is sorcs refuse to play there class any other way I have magnb In heavy that doesn’t use cloak & has a burst heal they refuse to see you don’t have to go class cannon shields & be in all light armour to make the class work

Medium or heavy Armour has no synergy with magSorc at all. Besides, whom are you going to kill without the added penetration and cost reduction of light Armour? If I want to zerg up I can do that on any other class as well.

How is a magicka class a) depending on block and heavy armor mitigation to survive (more strain on stam = less offensive power due to investment in defensive pools) , b) having less burst potential, c) having no execute and finally d) having no native access to unblockable/undodgable cc ever going to kill something? Yeah, poor sorcs have it so bad...

Sorc double standards are hilarious. You guys really are the new nightblades.

I love how most of you guys justified a lot of the sorc privileges by making a point that burst is highly delayed/telegraphed (= being counterable) over the course of the past years, yet you have received a foolproof (no fail cast possible) unblockable/undodgable dmg cc that is eliminating any counterplay (real counterplay, in the sense of doing x to prevent y to happen). Still waiting to see some sorc show a little decency and highlight how that is elevating sorc to a whole new and unhealthy level by eliminating its main weakness.

Such a cc has no place in the sorc template, justifying huge burst and finishing potential paired with top mobility (compared to other magicka classes) has to be offset by being easy to counter. There was a time when even sorcs were sensible enough to see that.

And why are you guys conveniently forgetting to add passive boosts to shields (introduction of defensive ultimates (resto ultimate) and sets (pirate skeleton)) providing major protection on demand to the discussion about whether shields are still overperforming or not? It's not new, but to say shields have only been nerfed (compared to ancient times) is not properly assessing the full picture.

I have given up hope on sorcs being able to give better balance input than the devs, in my honest opinion summerset has proven that all you are interested in is "buff my class", no matter the state of the class or whether it actually would need a little toning down.

Not at all. Most sorcs said on the pts that cage would over-perform.. Hell, I was saying that even before the damage was added - when they made it unblockabe/undodgeable..

Cage is wrong, Shieldbreaker is wrong.

Two wrongs don't make a right - but while most sorcs want both nerfed, so many non-sorcs want to see cage gone but shieldbreaker remain.....?

Yet pretty much all magsorcs recently tend to state things like "rune cage hasn't changed except dmg compared to last patch = damage must be the problem!" No, its not. You guys know why it is a problem, because it eliminates any real counterplay to the very potent sorc burst (which is essential to keep a huge burst class in check, counterplay).

You guys know that masterstaff has been so popular that people have been using it, despite rune cage already being the better choice. You guys know that it takes about 3-6 months for every OP thing to even get noticed by the majority of players. It took even another totally uncalled buff and huge PTS advertisement ("wooooow, this magsorc on PTS is beating everyone with meteor -rune cage" - threads) to make its imbalance obvious to most.

Yet, you desperately try to keep the real imbalance and try to enforced fake-nerfs that won't touch the real problem, because it benefits you.

Partially disagree with you here.

First most of the magsorc mains called out the Rune Cage problem after the first week of PTS. By Mains I mean people who actually understand how the class works both in a vacuum and relative to other classes, not simply those who defend sorc.

Second, the Rune Cage damage is much more significant than people realize in open world. After the the frag nerf, sorcs lost a gcd and about around 1.5k tooltip damage if they didn't rune Master+Clench. I've basically run the same build since homestead only swapping between Infernal and Engine Guardian and skills/Jewlerry glyphs/traits (i've tested out every meta and my own ideas,still like my original). The difference may not seem like much, but it's often the difference between 26% and 25%, which equates to an avg. 12k tooltip difference.

Too be fair I was a DW main until SS (and hopefully will be again one day) so the difference was far more noticeable for me. I ran Rune Cage with a destro as well prior to the damage buff, kill potential was much better than DW but still required a a sense of timing because the burst was always just short if my opponent had an active defence (i.e. they weren't potatoes). It's current iteration on live takes no effort at all, due to the damage from Rune Cage and the fact that overall damage has gone up across the board and many players have refused to adapt.

Taking ALL the damage off makes a noticeable difference. Trading a GCD for a stun doesn't seem like much but that extra GCD means our shields have expired. I've had to spec more into stam sustain because some kills require that I drop my shields and roll dodge. I don't think the 20% nerf was enough, but removing the damage and decreasing the cost could theoretically balance the skill.

Every other CC does a lot more than just CC. Rune Cage's only function is the stun. Trading all damage and any potential utility for a potential (no longer guaranteed) seems like a fair trade.

I have to say - having a ranged unavoidable stun will always be a balancing problem.

Imo if you want to have that functionality on sorc it should be on bolt escape + morphs (those would also prohibit the guaranteed hit of meteor + frags - you can´t hit frags after streak against someone who ccbreaks in time).

I´m not even sure sorc should have that functionality at all.

That's actually interesting idea to make streak work like that, but stun duration should be shortened to 2s at best. This would force sorcs to choose between more offensive build with streak or defensive with BoL. My only concern though would be it's aoe. An aoe inevitable stun combined with negate could be a bit OP.

base + ball morph are 2s stun duration and streak is 1.5s - so it would be okish duration wise?

i don´t neccessarily see any op combinations with negate - atleast not more than what timestop already offers (snare + delayed stun).

Mayrael

Derra wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

The problem is sorcs refuse to play there class any other way I have magnb In heavy that doesn’t use cloak & has a burst heal they refuse to see you don’t have to go class cannon shields & be in all light armour to make the class work

Medium or heavy Armour has no synergy with magSorc at all. Besides, whom are you going to kill without the added penetration and cost reduction of light Armour? If I want to zerg up I can do that on any other class as well.

How is a magicka class a) depending on block and heavy armor mitigation to survive (more strain on stam = less offensive power due to investment in defensive pools) , b) having less burst potential, c) having no execute and finally d) having no native access to unblockable/undodgable cc ever going to kill something? Yeah, poor sorcs have it so bad...

Sorc double standards are hilarious. You guys really are the new nightblades.

I love how most of you guys justified a lot of the sorc privileges by making a point that burst is highly delayed/telegraphed (= being counterable) over the course of the past years, yet you have received a foolproof (no fail cast possible) unblockable/undodgable dmg cc that is eliminating any counterplay (real counterplay, in the sense of doing x to prevent y to happen). Still waiting to see some sorc show a little decency and highlight how that is elevating sorc to a whole new and unhealthy level by eliminating its main weakness.

Such a cc has no place in the sorc template, justifying huge burst and finishing potential paired with top mobility (compared to other magicka classes) has to be offset by being easy to counter. There was a time when even sorcs were sensible enough to see that.

And why are you guys conveniently forgetting to add passive boosts to shields (introduction of defensive ultimates (resto ultimate) and sets (pirate skeleton)) providing major protection on demand to the discussion about whether shields are still overperforming or not? It's not new, but to say shields have only been nerfed (compared to ancient times) is not properly assessing the full picture.

I have given up hope on sorcs being able to give better balance input than the devs, in my honest opinion summerset has proven that all you are interested in is "buff my class", no matter the state of the class or whether it actually would need a little toning down.

Not at all. Most sorcs said on the pts that cage would over-perform.. Hell, I was saying that even before the damage was added - when they made it unblockabe/undodgeable..

Cage is wrong, Shieldbreaker is wrong.

Two wrongs don't make a right - but while most sorcs want both nerfed, so many non-sorcs want to see cage gone but shieldbreaker remain.....?

Yet pretty much all magsorcs recently tend to state things like "rune cage hasn't changed except dmg compared to last patch = damage must be the problem!" No, its not. You guys know why it is a problem, because it eliminates any real counterplay to the very potent sorc burst (which is essential to keep a huge burst class in check, counterplay).

You guys know that masterstaff has been so popular that people have been using it, despite rune cage already being the better choice. You guys know that it takes about 3-6 months for every OP thing to even get noticed by the majority of players. It took even another totally uncalled buff and huge PTS advertisement ("wooooow, this magsorc on PTS is beating everyone with meteor -rune cage" - threads) to make its imbalance obvious to most.

Yet, you desperately try to keep the real imbalance and try to enforced fake-nerfs that won't touch the real problem, because it benefits you.

Partially disagree with you here.

First most of the magsorc mains called out the Rune Cage problem after the first week of PTS. By Mains I mean people who actually understand how the class works both in a vacuum and relative to other classes, not simply those who defend sorc.

Second, the Rune Cage damage is much more significant than people realize in open world. After the the frag nerf, sorcs lost a gcd and about around 1.5k tooltip damage if they didn't rune Master+Clench. I've basically run the same build since homestead only swapping between Infernal and Engine Guardian and skills/Jewlerry glyphs/traits (i've tested out every meta and my own ideas,still like my original). The difference may not seem like much, but it's often the difference between 26% and 25%, which equates to an avg. 12k tooltip difference.

Too be fair I was a DW main until SS (and hopefully will be again one day) so the difference was far more noticeable for me. I ran Rune Cage with a destro as well prior to the damage buff, kill potential was much better than DW but still required a a sense of timing because the burst was always just short if my opponent had an active defence (i.e. they weren't potatoes). It's current iteration on live takes no effort at all, due to the damage from Rune Cage and the fact that overall damage has gone up across the board and many players have refused to adapt.

Taking ALL the damage off makes a noticeable difference. Trading a GCD for a stun doesn't seem like much but that extra GCD means our shields have expired. I've had to spec more into stam sustain because some kills require that I drop my shields and roll dodge. I don't think the 20% nerf was enough, but removing the damage and decreasing the cost could theoretically balance the skill.

Every other CC does a lot more than just CC. Rune Cage's only function is the stun. Trading all damage and any potential utility for a potential (no longer guaranteed) seems like a fair trade.

I have to say - having a ranged unavoidable stun will always be a balancing problem.

Imo if you want to have that functionality on sorc it should be on bolt escape + morphs (those would also prohibit the guaranteed hit of meteor + frags - you can´t hit frags after streak against someone who ccbreaks in time).

I´m not even sure sorc should have that functionality at all.

That's actually interesting idea to make streak work like that, but stun duration should be shortened to 2s at best. This would force sorcs to choose between more offensive build with streak or defensive with BoL. My only concern though would be it's aoe. An aoe inevitable stun combined with negate could be a bit OP.

base + ball morph are 2s stun duration and streak is 1.5s - so it would be okish duration wise?

i don´t neccessarily see any op combinations with negate - atleast not more than what timestop already offers (snare + delayed stun).

Well yep, there is this option to. I think this idea is one of the most balanced changes we could have. Short unavoidable mid/close range cc with increasing cost when spammed. Seems pretty ok. Now just find new usage for rune cage (like dot that procs blood magic), work around this and maybe shieldstack won't be needed anymore.

Edit: or at least there will be other option except of another shield.

IAVITNI

Derra wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Partially disagree with you here.

First most of the magsorc mains called out the Rune Cage problem after the first week of PTS. By Mains I mean people who actually understand how the class works both in a vacuum and relative to other classes, not simply those who defend sorc.

Second, the Rune Cage damage is much more significant than people realize in open world. After the the frag nerf, sorcs lost a gcd and about around 1.5k tooltip damage if they didn't rune Master+Clench. I've basically run the same build since homestead only swapping between Infernal and Engine Guardian and skills/Jewlerry glyphs/traits (i've tested out every meta and my own ideas,still like my original). The difference may not seem like much, but it's often the difference between 26% and 25%, which equates to an avg. 12k tooltip difference.

Too be fair I was a DW main until SS (and hopefully will be again one day) so the difference was far more noticeable for me. I ran Rune Cage with a destro as well prior to the damage buff, kill potential was much better than DW but still required a a sense of timing because the burst was always just short if my opponent had an active defence (i.e. they weren't potatoes). It's current iteration on live takes no effort at all, due to the damage from Rune Cage and the fact that overall damage has gone up across the board and many players have refused to adapt.

Taking ALL the damage off makes a noticeable difference. Trading a GCD for a stun doesn't seem like much but that extra GCD means our shields have expired. I've had to spec more into stam sustain because some kills require that I drop my shields and roll dodge. I don't think the 20% nerf was enough, but removing the damage and decreasing the cost could theoretically balance the skill.

Every other CC does a lot more than just CC. Rune Cage's only function is the stun. Trading all damage and any potential utility for a potential (no longer guaranteed) seems like a fair trade.

I have to say - having a ranged unavoidable stun will always be a balancing problem.

Imo if you want to have that functionality on sorc it should be on bolt escape + morphs (those would also prohibit the guaranteed hit of meteor + frags - you can´t hit frags after streak against someone who ccbreaks in time).

I´m not even sure sorc should have that functionality at all.

Not saying I disagree with you. But shrinking the range of the skill makes it useless and everybody will just go back to Clench. Although you are suggesting they remove Rune Cage all together, which I wouldn't be adverse to.

All that said, I still think that damageless cage should at least be tested. My experience with it was that it was very lacklustre and I preferred running no CC than running a damageless Cage. The CC was consistent, the kill was not.

Right now sorc is strong because it has an unavoidable high burst. A damageless cage is 9k tooltip damage gone. Running without it allows a stronger but avoidable burst, whereas running Rune cage keeps that burst unavoidable but significantly weakens it forcing significant sacrifices to make up for that lost damage or simply playing with a weaker burst.

I don't think unblockable CC on streak should be done either. Only way I could see that being balanced is if it only stuns the first person. But at that point you may as well just go BoL to escape because streaking into a group of non-stunned opponents is a good way to die.

Derra

IAVITNI wrote: »

All that said, I still think that damageless cage should at least be tested. My experience with it was that it was very lacklustre and I preferred running no CC than running a damageless Cage. The CC was consistent, the kill was not.

Personally dislike cage without dmg because as you rightly stated - it´s noticeably worse when solo/1v1/1vX but makes hardly any difference for Xv1 or grp scenarios.
And my gutfeeling is that most people take issue due to getting caged when outnumbered.

BohnT

IAVITNI wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Partially disagree with you here.

First most of the magsorc mains called out the Rune Cage problem after the first week of PTS. By Mains I mean people who actually understand how the class works both in a vacuum and relative to other classes, not simply those who defend sorc.

Second, the Rune Cage damage is much more significant than people realize in open world. After the the frag nerf, sorcs lost a gcd and about around 1.5k tooltip damage if they didn't rune Master+Clench. I've basically run the same build since homestead only swapping between Infernal and Engine Guardian and skills/Jewlerry glyphs/traits (i've tested out every meta and my own ideas,still like my original). The difference may not seem like much, but it's often the difference between 26% and 25%, which equates to an avg. 12k tooltip difference.

Too be fair I was a DW main until SS (and hopefully will be again one day) so the difference was far more noticeable for me. I ran Rune Cage with a destro as well prior to the damage buff, kill potential was much better than DW but still required a a sense of timing because the burst was always just short if my opponent had an active defence (i.e. they weren't potatoes). It's current iteration on live takes no effort at all, due to the damage from Rune Cage and the fact that overall damage has gone up across the board and many players have refused to adapt.

Taking ALL the damage off makes a noticeable difference. Trading a GCD for a stun doesn't seem like much but that extra GCD means our shields have expired. I've had to spec more into stam sustain because some kills require that I drop my shields and roll dodge. I don't think the 20% nerf was enough, but removing the damage and decreasing the cost could theoretically balance the skill.

Every other CC does a lot more than just CC. Rune Cage's only function is the stun. Trading all damage and any potential utility for a potential (no longer guaranteed) seems like a fair trade.

I have to say - having a ranged unavoidable stun will always be a balancing problem.

Imo if you want to have that functionality on sorc it should be on bolt escape + morphs (those would also prohibit the guaranteed hit of meteor + frags - you can´t hit frags after streak against someone who ccbreaks in time).

I´m not even sure sorc should have that functionality at all.

Not saying I disagree with you. But shrinking the range of the skill makes it useless and everybody will just go back to Clench. Although you are suggesting they remove Rune Cage all together, which I wouldn't be adverse to.

All that said, I still think that damageless cage should at least be tested. My experience with it was that it was very lacklustre and I preferred running no CC than running a damageless Cage. The CC was consistent, the kill was not.

Right now sorc is strong because it has an unavoidable high burst. A damageless cage is 9k tooltip damage gone. Running without it allows a stronger but avoidable burst, whereas running Rune cage keeps that burst unavoidable but significantly weakens it forcing significant sacrifices to make up for that lost damage or simply playing with a weaker burst.

I don't think unblockable CC on streak should be done either. Only way I could see that being balanced is if it only stuns the first person. But at that point you may as well just go BoL to escape because streaking into a group of non-stunned opponents is a good way to die.

I remember when they released the CWC patch notes, i was on a TS server with one of the best sorcs (Metzger) in the game.
When i told him what they'll do to rune cage he started laughing how stupid that change will be and how broken such a skill is on a sorc.
That was without the really stupid change that was done with SS.
Sorcs burst has been changed in the past to work without a undodgeable, unblockable stun now they just added one on top, that's like giving stamnb access to curse.

An undodgeable, unblockable stun has no right to exist in the toolkit of a sorc, just like many other things have no right to exist in other classes toolkit.