SquareSausage wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

To everyone saying that tank dps doesn't matter: make a new tank and go questing in a full tank setup. Once you've leveled a tank like that to 50, come back and tell us again how tanks don't need to have their dps increased.

I'm pretty sure these complaints come from people who can't do 10k dps in a dungeon and are jealous of how a tank who is literally not wearing a single piece of tanking gear except for 1hs front bar is pulling higher numbers than they are, so they want to keep tank dps ridiculously low instead of nefing the ridiculously high survivability of DDs.

If DDs have good enough survivability to queue as tanks for vet dungeons and can deal with all the tank mechanics, tanks should have high enough DPS to queue as DDs and pass the DPS checks in the same dungeons. In Direfrost Keep that's 15k DPS, and it can easily be fake tanked. Let's take that as our measuring stick.

if you choose to level a tank in full tank gear and full tank skills by grinding from 0-50 then thats your choice but it is a obstinate and silly choice. Its the same as saying level a fully healer in healing gear and skills, its silly, no-one does that, they atleast put on some dps skills and go grinding.
The choice to not change your gear for different circumstances is the lazy gamer. Even DPS do it depending on what instance they are in, VMA, vDSA, V Trials, all require different setups.

A DPS being able to 'tank' a vet dungeon is not reason to boost tank DPS, its simply the content does not require a fully trialled specced tank as it is not 'hard' enough for the experienced player to deem necessary. Thats just the way the game is designed, not everything is vet trial difficulty as there are a number of different skill levels of players in the game. How about you put on DPS gear and do the same thing as the DPS you see? No? A tank/dps hybrid is actually very good and rather fun in vet dungeons.

now, when it comes to Vet trials thats where the real tanks come in, a DPS can't do that there. its about playing your character smartly for the situation in front of you and not thinking one build can effectively do every role without switching it up. If a 'DPS' specced char taunts the boss etc and deals with the damage he is then also a tank, he is just more efficient in dungeons than a trial specced tank.

This is not quite equal and I'll explain why. Very few games in general solve this problem that I'm about to explain well. DD characters can run through content rapidly and be done long before a Tank by merit of obviously killing everything significantly faster. A True Tank will have skill points, morphs, and CP's relating more toward tanking than doing damage. Because of this a True Tank even in full dps gear will still take a much longer time than a DD. Healers do not have this problem because for the most part their attributes actually apply toward doing damage in ESO (though this is not always true in other games). While there are some CP discrepancies the Healer can still pull off a significantly greater amount of damage than a Tank. The reality is this game should simply give us alternate 'Builds' where at the click of a button we can spec one way or another. Its pure convenience and would make life a lot less painful for tanks. Even with this though earlier comments did make the point that if you do not level as a tank your skills are not yet ready for tanking and therefore it will take you even longer to play the role you wanted to. This isn't new though. Usually in MMO's being a tank requires that you do a lot more work than other players and often be more knowledgeable about a lot more things in the game to do your job truly well.

A 'true tank' can have all dps skills levelled for an effective dd as thats the best way to grind to level 50 so morphs is not an issue, tank skills will be not affected. Sure your max stats and CP won't be perfect as you will be a hybrid in that sense but your dps will increase from under 5k dps to over 20 if you do it right.

I agree that it would be nice to have a pre set CP, Stats, and Skills set up that you can switch between at one press, even if its for a gold cost to the character.

I've levelled 3 chars to become tanks, all as dps and all the tank skills I needed except Warhorn and vigor were levelled to full by the time I was 50 by slotting them on my bar as I levelled. There were some 1H&S passives I needed to max out but that was it.

yes, tanks usually are the most knowledgable as they have to control the encounter, agreed.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Again, all these arguments against increasing tank dps are insanely biased. You are calling it a sacrifice if a DD has to give up one or max. 2 skill slots (something that they really should have done anyways) to turn themselves into passable tanks for most content, yet you tell us that it's no big deal if we have to switch sets, give up a 2nd weapon and all skill slots on that bar to be just barely good enough to keep up with a DD that is literally just spamming 1 skill.

Do you have any sense of proportion at all?!

If putting 2 DoTs on the back bar would result in 15k dps on a tank (i.e. barely passable), that's when it would be a fair trade. But as it stands now, it's not even close.

And the solution is quite obvious:
1. Make tank skills scale with max health because stacking health on a tank shouldn't be punished (or [mag+health+stam]/2 or something along those lines, since tanks are very different in regard to what stats they stack).
2. Redesign Power Bash (a skill literally nobody uses in PvE right now, so here is your trade-off) - significantly increase its damage and make it cheap enough to be worth using while tanking, for example by making the Power Slam morph cost equivalent to the player's current block cost (or entirely free) when you use it after it procs.
3. Add a moderate DoT to Low Slash.

Dude, you got it wrong, a fully specced tank and dd are not supposed to be on par with DPS I dunno where this mindset comes from. They are different roles. If all you do is dungeons and you want to help in DPS then dont fully spec as tank, thats overkill and not efficient. There simply no other way to put it.

If you think changing bar set up and gear is hard work and this frustrates you then I'm sorry for you but every other role does that when they change to different content.

the ideas you suggested skills wise make no sense, when you say tank skills that encompasses everything from weapon skills to class skills, guild skills, alliance war skills etc they cannot all scale with health, lol. I presume you mean 1h&s. Well if thats the case say goodbye to stam 1h&s pvp characters. Also not all tanks are health tanks but hybrids so those suggestions wouldnt benefit the majority of tanks out there in your aim of increasing DPS.

Power bash is an OP skill in PvP it applies major defile with the reverberate morph and is a decent single target spammable. Making either morph cost 'nothing', well lol again. I hope you do realise that tip top DPS doesnt come from one skill, its about working a bunch of skills together and you will never have that if you are fully specced tank, thats why you need to change your sets and skills to fit that role you desire.

Low slash dot, not needed, minor maim is enough.

SquareSausage wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

To everyone saying that tank dps doesn't matter: make a new tank and go questing in a full tank setup. Once you've leveled a tank like that to 50, come back and tell us again how tanks don't need to have their dps increased.

I'm pretty sure these complaints come from people who can't do 10k dps in a dungeon and are jealous of how a tank who is literally not wearing a single piece of tanking gear except for 1hs front bar is pulling higher numbers than they are, so they want to keep tank dps ridiculously low instead of nefing the ridiculously high survivability of DDs.

If DDs have good enough survivability to queue as tanks for vet dungeons and can deal with all the tank mechanics, tanks should have high enough DPS to queue as DDs and pass the DPS checks in the same dungeons. In Direfrost Keep that's 15k DPS, and it can easily be fake tanked. Let's take that as our measuring stick.

if you choose to level a tank in full tank gear and full tank skills by grinding from 0-50 then thats your choice but it is a obstinate and silly choice. Its the same as saying level a fully healer in healing gear and skills, its silly, no-one does that, they atleast put on some dps skills and go grinding.
The choice to not change your gear for different circumstances is the lazy gamer. Even DPS do it depending on what instance they are in, VMA, vDSA, V Trials, all require different setups.

A DPS being able to 'tank' a vet dungeon is not reason to boost tank DPS, its simply the content does not require a fully trialled specced tank as it is not 'hard' enough for the experienced player to deem necessary. Thats just the way the game is designed, not everything is vet trial difficulty as there are a number of different skill levels of players in the game. How about you put on DPS gear and do the same thing as the DPS you see? No? A tank/dps hybrid is actually very good and rather fun in vet dungeons.

now, when it comes to Vet trials thats where the real tanks come in, a DPS can't do that there. its about playing your character smartly for the situation in front of you and not thinking one build can effectively do every role without switching it up. If a 'DPS' specced char taunts the boss etc and deals with the damage he is then also a tank, he is just more efficient in dungeons than a trial specced tank.

This is not quite equal and I'll explain why. Very few games in general solve this problem that I'm about to explain well. DD characters can run through content rapidly and be done long before a Tank by merit of obviously killing everything significantly faster. A True Tank will have skill points, morphs, and CP's relating more toward tanking than doing damage. Because of this a True Tank even in full dps gear will still take a much longer time than a DD. Healers do not have this problem because for the most part their attributes actually apply toward doing damage in ESO (though this is not always true in other games). While there are some CP discrepancies the Healer can still pull off a significantly greater amount of damage than a Tank. The reality is this game should simply give us alternate 'Builds' where at the click of a button we can spec one way or another. Its pure convenience and would make life a lot less painful for tanks. Even with this though earlier comments did make the point that if you do not level as a tank your skills are not yet ready for tanking and therefore it will take you even longer to play the role you wanted to. This isn't new though. Usually in MMO's being a tank requires that you do a lot more work than other players and often be more knowledgeable about a lot more things in the game to do your job truly well.

A 'true tank' can have all dps skills levelled for an effective dd as thats the best way to grind to level 50 so morphs is not an issue, tank skills will be not affected. Sure your max stats and CP won't be perfect as you will be a hybrid in that sense but your dps will increase from under 5k dps to over 20 if you do it right.

I agree that it would be nice to have a pre set CP, Stats, and Skills set up that you can switch between at one press, even if its for a gold cost to the character.

I've levelled 3 chars to become tanks, all as dps and all the tank skills I needed except Warhorn and vigor were levelled to full by the time I was 50 by slotting them on my bar as I levelled. There were some 1H&S passives I needed to max out but that was it.

yes, tanks usually are the most knowledgable as they have to control the encounter, agreed.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Again, all these arguments against increasing tank dps are insanely biased. You are calling it a sacrifice if a DD has to give up one or max. 2 skill slots (something that they really should have done anyways) to turn themselves into passable tanks for most content, yet you tell us that it's no big deal if we have to switch sets, give up a 2nd weapon and all skill slots on that bar to be just barely good enough to keep up with a DD that is literally just spamming 1 skill.

Do you have any sense of proportion at all?!

If putting 2 DoTs on the back bar would result in 15k dps on a tank (i.e. barely passable), that's when it would be a fair trade. But as it stands now, it's not even close.

And the solution is quite obvious:
1. Make tank skills scale with max health because stacking health on a tank shouldn't be punished (or [mag+health+stam]/2 or something along those lines, since tanks are very different in regard to what stats they stack).
2. Redesign Power Bash (a skill literally nobody uses in PvE right now, so here is your trade-off) - significantly increase its damage and make it cheap enough to be worth using while tanking, for example by making the Power Slam morph cost equivalent to the player's current block cost (or entirely free) when you use it after it procs.
3. Add a moderate DoT to Low Slash.

Dude, you got it wrong, a fully specced tank and dd are not supposed to be on par with DPS I dunno where this mindset comes from. They are different roles. If all you do is dungeons and you want to help in DPS then dont fully spec as tank, thats overkill and not efficient. There simply no other way to put it.

If you think changing bar set up and gear is hard work and this frustrates you then I'm sorry for you but every other role does that when they change to different content.

the ideas you suggested skills wise make no sense, when you say tank skills that encompasses everything from weapon skills to class skills, guild skills, alliance war skills etc they cannot all scale with health, lol. I presume you mean 1h&s. Well if thats the case say goodbye to stam 1h&s pvp characters. Also not all tanks are health tanks but hybrids so those suggestions wouldnt benefit the majority of tanks out there in your aim of increasing DPS.

Power bash is an OP skill in PvP it applies major defile with the reverberate morph and is a decent single target spammable. Making either morph cost 'nothing', well lol again. I hope you do realise that tip top DPS doesnt come from one skill, its about working a bunch of skills together and you will never have that if you are fully specced tank, thats why you need to change your sets and skills to fit that role you desire.

Low slash dot, not needed, minor maim is enough.

It sounds like you haven't even read what I wrote. One of the suggestions was to scale it with all stats. The point is that stacking HP shouldn't be a detriment since some of the new content requires high HP tanks. And yeah, I did mean 1hs skills, but if they looked at all tank skills and did the same where it makes sense, it would be perfect. The morph I suggested to make cheap does not apply defile, so your precious PvP wouldn't be affected, and the only change would be that non-stam tanks would also be able to use it effectively rather than just those stacking stam. Also, you'd need to be hit to be able to use it for "free", so not like a tank could chase you down and kill you any more than they can now.

Also, 1 skill? What? Changing scaling and adding a dot would affect all 1hs skills. The Power Bash would in essence be the equivalent of a crystal frags proc on magsorcs in regards to its place in the rotation. You'd still need to slot other skills to be "on par" as you put it, which will still make you a hybrid, but at least now you can go full tank and still be able to kill overland mobs before your grandkids retire.

And if tanks shouldn't be "on par" with the worst DDs, then maybe let's nerf DD defenses, since they certainly are on par with tanks in most content. Again, biased reply is biased.

I did read it, I ignored the bit on scaling off all stats ( {mag+stam+magicka}/2 ) as that would mean in general that you will always have roughly the same value no matter what you really wore.

Making any of the morphs of Power Bash hit harder would unbalance pvp, specifically making the power slam morph cheap aswell as significantly increasing its damage would encourage PvP permablockers which is already a big bug bear of PvP players and ZoS.

I said 1 skill as you referred to boosting Power Bash morphs, adding the dot to low slash is neither here nor there as its insignificant in terms of making a specced tank a DPS.

Lets not try and nerf anyone's defenses please, why not buff content instead then to make a specced tank more required.

Or which I suggested stop being lazy and put on different sets and skills when you are doing easy content.