[Class Rep] Tanking Feedback Thread

ZOS_GinaBruno

The purpose of this thread is to give you a place to post your current top two pain points with tanking. Our new Class Representatives will be keeping a close eye on this thread, and will utilize it to gather additional feedback for the notes they’re currently compiling for their first meeting with the Dev Team next week. Please be sure and keep your post clear and succinct, and focus more on what is currently frustrating you rather than potential solutions. Thanks!

WhiteNoiseMaker

I'll try and post a meaningful post to break the ice...

I feel like right now the 'meta' of group content has pigeonholed the Tanking role into a footstool for the DPS role. I mean, there is support, and then there is 'support'. In other games, tanking feels like a role unto itself, complete with mission goals that are definable, measurable, and unique. In ESO we've no real benchmark or measure of our own success.

I feel as if in ESO, we tanks exist only to glorify the DPS and scoreboard-chasers. We're not really shield-arms covering the flanks, battlefield commanders or controllers, we have actually very little lock-up or CC function in high end content. We're flat-out TOLD how our builds should serve the DPS with Warhorn, Ebon Set, and other features that should be part of a greater toolbox now being flat-out demanded of us by people who don't even play our role. It's quite honestly both demoralizing and humiliating.

I also feel as if the Dev's have currently seen that Tanks 'need something' but are at a loss of just what exactly fills that need. The newest DLC content has only created situations where there's an even greater emphasis on the DPS race, rage timers, and other factors that don't allow us to shine as part of a trinity. We're not even that great at being meat-shields anymore, as almost all new DLC content can pretty much one-shot us now, we must evade and avoid rather than endure through boss combats.

This only covers the aspect of tanking in PVE. I'm not even going to get into how it feels as if tanks have been completely emasculated in PVP to the point of not even bothering. Like the modern definition, in PVP a battlefield tank should be enduring, aggressive, and spearheading the assault so the infantry can shelter and advance behind it. There's absolutely no sense of protection a tank provides other players in this regard currently in ESO.

I'll be blunt, from the last several iterations and mechanics passes since Dark Brotherhood dropped, it really feels as if Wroble HATES tank players and the tank role. This is my perception, but there's been a palpable snubbing and depowering of any effectiveness that tanks have in the game, to the point where I've now rolled several more healers and severely curtailed queuing into content as a tank, because it feels like I'm just setting myself up for systemic abuse.

These are just my thoughts, off the cuff, stream of consciousness...

leandro.800ub17_ESO

My top two pain points
1-Ice Staff Tanking:
2-One shot deaths when switching bars (disables block)

Bucky Balls

The role of tank seems synonymous with dragonknight which is more than unfortunate for those who enjoy experimenting with other class/race combinations. PVE CC capability is almost non-existent for nightblades yet given nb's passives and abilities they should (and have done in the past) made excellent tanks. There seem to be glass floors and ceilings which constrain tanks into very limited content and context and, as @WhiteNoiseMaker has comprehensively described, the tank role is largely slaved to the demands of dmg dealers - as, incidentally, have healers. This latter is due to design where the perpetual solution to most pve content seems to be 'more dps'; that may also be true for pvp in the sense of higher burst damage but I suspect that pvp relies on a more holistic resource/attack/defense balancing approach.

Some good ideas introduced, despite minor shortcomings, include frost staff use for taunt and use of magicka for blocking while wielding one; this can give rise to interesting possibilities that enables a tank to distribute load of attribute use. I would welcome more of this kind of design. Equally, having a non-class specific means of pulling in ranged adversaries (undaunted Silver whatever-it's called) is great, particularly since it was achieved without diminishing existing dk chains(dk's now have 2 means of chaining using stamina or magicka which is great).

TLDR: separate notion of role and class (and race) completely so that the 'play how you want' paradigm becomes actual. Equally, make tank role distinct enough for players to make their own viable decisions regarding skills, attributes and gear without being forced into a limited subset by dps necessity/constraints.

umagon

I often wonder why dragon knights can bypass the no stamina regeneration while blocking rule set; by unitizing the helping hands passive, high magkica regeneration, and igneous shield. Yet other classes cannot do the same. It would be nice to be able to hold block indefinitely and regenerate both magicka/stamina at the same time like dragon knights can on my tankblade.

josiahva

^^ I agree with Whitenoisemaker 100%. I love to tank...but I rarely if ever tank trials. Why? Because I am told I have to wear that garbage Ebon set, use this and that ability, etc. There is absolutely no reason for me to tank trials when I cant play my build, but instead have to play someone else's build entirely. To be clear, I don't have any issue completing the content on my build those few times I am allowed to run it, but why try to go through all the effort to try to find a group with an open mind? I am sure DPS and healers face similar issues in trials to a lesser degree as well.

He is also right on the worthlessness of a true tank in PvP. I went into PvP again with a full tank again after leveling the Psijic skill line, to test if the new skills gave me enough utility to be useful, and while Borrowed Time is actually a nice step in the right direction, I still found myself struggling to be of much use at all in a full support role. Aside from being able to drop time stops on demand and chains in enemies to separate them from groups, and root enemies, there was little I could do to help. A tank skill of short duration that granted major protection to all group members within 10 meters for example would be a nice tank skill to have for PvP and give a real reason to have a tank leading a charge into a group of enemies. The beckoning steel set has a very nice effect...give us something similar as a skill, but with a 100% chance, let us use our advantages to actually do our job in PvP. Maybe a skill similar in effect to what the Death's Wind set does...knock down enemies when we barrel into a group. Tanks should be wrecking balls to tightly clustered groups in PvP, give us a reason to want a tank at the front taking the damage and busting up clusters

Dedricus

josiahva wrote: »

^^ I agree with Whitenoisemaker 100%. I love to tank...but I rarely if ever tank trials. Why? Because I am told I have to wear that garbage Ebon set, use this and that ability, etc. There is absolutely no reason for me to tank trials when I cant play my build, but instead have to play someone else's build entirely.

1. Ebon is God's gift to tanks. Utility and Self defense in one? Hell yeah.

2.You can do just about anything you want in normal trials. Past that, you start getting into competitive end game where your build matters. No game is going to let you have free reign over what to do at their highest level of difficulty. That's why it's called the meta, and that's why people follow it. WoW, GW2, and even here. High end raids require you to utilize optimal performance.

THAT SAID... I'd like to see more diversity among tanks and for the role to become about truly tanking. Seeing Torug overtake Alkosh for dungeons was great, but there's still no reason to wear sets with resistance. Atm, tanks feel like defensive supports. Sure you hold the boss, but you're mostly there to buff the dps.

gabriebe

Bring back tanks to Cyrodiil. Yes, it sucks when you are unable to kill one guy, but tanks serve the purpose of being pug magnets to push breaches and such. The consistent nerfs to blocking have had the results of homogeneizing everyone's playstyle to the point where it just becomes a numbers game. I miss seeing DKs tank 20 people + away from a fight so their group could push through. They don't even need to damage, but man allow them to live a little bit longer than they can right now.

Raraaku

Very much in agreement with WhiteNoiseMaker:

1 - The tanking role seems too confined, one-dimensional, whatever you want to call it. With the combat system the way it is, Tanks are not going to support the group by contributing to group DPS; so that leaves us with supporting the group by crowd control and group buff skills. With that said, ESO suffers terribly with what I call "selfish buffs" in that the skill's buff only applies to the caster; or the buffs are hidden within healing skills. How many buffs are there that either buff the group or buffs another group member without being a healing skill? ... including synergies I can think of only 7 off the top of my head: Molten Weapons (Dragonknight), Warhorn (Assault Ultimate), Frost Cloak (Warden), Circle of Protection (Fighters Guild), Consuming Darkness (Nightblade Ultimate), Barrier (Support Ultimate), and Feeding Frenzy synergy (Werewolf). That's not a lot and that's accounting for the fact that I probably missed one or two, oh and 3/7 of the skills I listed are class specific, so really it's more like 4 skills that solely buff and is not hidden behind a heal... For a game of ESO's size and the existence of all these cool buff effects and damage shields, that is a startling short list. I mean look at all the buff effects within the game: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Buffs

As for Crowd Control skills, there are several problems with them in my eyes. The first being is that even when skills such as Talons are used, if the npc is in the process of enacting a skill (the one comes to mind is melee enemies dagger throw), immobilization does not take effect, or not all enemies within the AoE are affected (and I believe the AoE target cap was eliminated early this year). I'd also like to see some CC skills that don't simply just snare as their debuff; while useful, there are a variety of debuff effects that are rarely used in-game that would be just as useful such as Enervation, Uncertainty, and Vulnerability. I feel as though there is so much potential with buff effects that already exists within the game that aren't used.

2 - Tanks damage suffer from the current combat system. Tanks are the only role between the trinity in which a character's attribute points are split between 3(or 2) resource pools. With the new combat system changes, a large resource pool is more important now than ever to do good damage. While a Tank's job is not to be DPS, it doesn't mean that they can't help contribute, healers are able to contribute thanks to Elemental Blockade and large magicka pools (which help increase their attack damage as well). For a tank, health will be the largest resource pool, with stamina and magicka being close to even with each other. Very few skills base damage scale to the largest resource pool or scale with health in ESO. Now of course there is a tradeoff between damage and survivability, but playing as a tank in say overland/solo PvE combat can be... rather boring and this is from a guy who loves to Tank in MMOs simply because battles are so drawn out due to the lack of DPS.

If a tank's best friend weapon skill line (1H and Shield) were to scale with Health instead of Stamina; it would be a perfect solution for the tank to be able to contribute to the Group DPS without making any significant changes to the combat system, as I have seen very very few DPS builds that use 1H and Shield.

These are probably the two biggest pain points for me as a tank in ESO.

Gallagher563

1: Set diversity is my biggest pain point almost universally. Tanks run basically the same two set regardless (Alkosh and Ebon). Tanking in this game is built on buffing allies and their is a lack of sets that do this.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

I’m not a tank and really have no inclination to ever make one, but I’ve fought against thousands of them in Cyrodiil so I have some advice.

Give the fighters and mages guild 1 extra ability each so that it’s open to each class, I’ll call it reverse fear. It’s super annoying to get feared in PVP, because it’s generally the easiest way to die without being able to put up a fight. Tanks should be able to taunt anyone withing 10 meters into running at them, like fear in reverse.

As it stands right now, if I cannot kill you in under a minute with 2 soul assaults, some procs, a few radiants and a kitchen sink I’ll just stop fighting and walk away. It’s not worth the time (and missing potential AP) to bother with that 80k health tank who is trying to tickle fight you.

dovakiin5574

1)
Tanks aren't relevant in normal content. This is a HUGE problem. Why have a tank when you can blast through a normal with 4 DPS or 3 DPS and a healer?

2)
Lack of role function. Tanks just sit there grabbing aggro. Sure we have Warhorn, but what about some skills to boost group damage mitigation or a skill that boosts group healing or one that boosts overall dps (non dks)? We don't have these.

Ajitator

1. Vet Maw Shatter mechanics/timing on Console - This is nearly impossible to dodge in comparison to PC. Please fix the timing on this.

2. Limited number of viable sets. As the DPS boosters we are in the META the only sets we can use are Ebon Alkosh and Torugs.

dowinterfor6

PVE: Virtually all content with appropriate group composition doesn't challenge the actual "tanking damage" capabilities of a tank, and this is a good thing, since more damage isn't an interesting mechanic, stacking and managing aggro are, for example. Unfortunately, there aren't any more viable tanking sets other than ebon/torugs/alkosh and sometimes SPC as a niche. Alkosh is an interesting mechanic, and more group utility sets should be released (that aren't simply "wear this for a group dps increase")

PVP: There's not much point running a tank in PvP since most builds will be tanky enough in light armor or damage sets, and usually run a utility set as a back bar anyway. However, having player taunt as a short, hard cc may be interesting.

Royaji

1) Set diversity is definitely one for me.

Ebon is base game and Alkosh is TG. And they are still the way to go. You can throw in some other base game sets like dragon, torug's and a couple others but the main idea still stays. Most tanking sets are too selfish and are not designed for support. I understand that this is the way ZOS tries to keep power creep in control (because a direct nerf to DDs normally creates a ragewave) but can we have something? Galanwe was a step in the right direction but it's still pretty lackluster.

While we are at it can we also take a look at Major/Minor Aegis? It doesn't work anywhere as well as Slayer for DDs. I want to have a tanking set from a trial that is best in slot useful for once.

2) Newer content design.

Lately it feels like blocking became absolutely useless. With all the extra-heavy heavy attacks and unblockable stuns I feel like I have to dodge way too much as a tank (And I'm talking about PvE). To the point where full well fitted Eternal Hunt seems like a good choice for a tank

Again, I understand that trying to force tanks into reactive blocking didn't work but who though that making everything hit so hard that it's just easier to dodge or run a 50k+ HP build was a good idea? I like the new trend where conal AoEs and even some ground AoEs stick instead of following you so you can walk out of them. This seems like a nice positioning challenge that is fun for a tank. But having to dodge everything else because you just can't block it feels really cheap. I really don't think that there should be an attack that a fully specced tank can't block.

geophonic_ESO

So so many good ideas and input already by @WhiteNoiseMaker , good writeup mate.

My main concerns with tanking in ESO is mostly that I feel like a buff bot, or even not needed in easier content.
The current META forces me to wear in principle non-tanking sets like alkosh, which do nothing to the survivability of the tank, yet is needed in trials for better dps (which as most have said is the main culprit: more dps makes things easier than i.e. having a good tank).
IF ZOS wants tanks in a support role, then maybe it is time to give us sets which exactly do this, increase the survivability of the tank while also having a way of supporting the group.
Maybe a good way of doing this could also be to add a skill line exactly for tanking (so that all classes can benefit from it despite their inherent class skills). This skill line could then revolve around group buffs, self-survivability and maybe a short (2-3s) AE snap taunt (just and idea).

Integral1900

Tanking in vet and especially in trials is facing such a mountain of incoming damage, mechanics and rage timers etc that you are forced to play only one way, almost all such tanks use the same sets and the same skills. I walked away from that and now just do normal partly because there is just no variety at the top end... tanks are rare in this game mostly because it’s dull to be stuck with someone else’s build

Why not encourage other types, two handed, sorcerers (Gandalf on the bridge comes to mind), ice tanks could have been fun but the warden ice skills have neither the buffs nor the raw power to pull it of at the top end. Also the ice staff tanking needs to be separated from the staff, maybe put it on an under used skill?

Doctordarkspawn

1. Tanks have no variety of roll, or loadout.

- In the current meta the tank has only two jobs. To hold agro and to boost DPS through passive buffs. Meaning what groups will allow you to run is very narrow. You -need- to boost DPS, or they wont take you.

- There's no real ability to tank in other ways right now. Before, the saptank was a nice alternative that provided group healing as well, so maybe the healer could take a day off. I used to run a templar tank that did the same up until Morrowind where the changes both to templar and sustain made it unworkable.

Solution: Make other forms of mitigation (Healing, bubbles) viable options in combat through class or even specialization choices. Give them a purpose other than just boosting the DPS. Or a way to do that, that does not require certain sets.

2. Magicka tanking isn't fleshed out enough.

- Ice staff has no designated taunt, has no armor penetration, and taunts on heavy attack. Not only making this a newbie trap as a weapon choice as most people will think of ice as a CC related weapon or want to play an ice mage with warden and get *yelled at* in quick fashion, it's just half baked and not worth using for magicka tanks even compared to sword and board.

-- Magicka tanking needs a new weapon line, for dang sure. People have suggested Alteration staff, or Fist weapons, or most commonly One Handed And Rune. Personally I like the last option, but the point remains, it must be done.

Solution: Make a new weapon focused on magicka tanking. And cut the frost-staff changes.

WhiteNoiseMaker

Dedricus wrote: »

1. Ebon is God's gift to tanks. Utility and Self defense in one? Hell yeah.

2.You can do just about anything you want in normal trials. Past that, you start getting into competitive end game where your build matters. No game is going to let you have free reign over what to do at their highest level of difficulty. That's why it's called the meta, and that's why people follow it. WoW, GW2, and even here. High end raids require you to utilize optimal performance.

THAT SAID... I'd like to see more diversity among tanks and for the role to become about truly tanking. Seeing Torug overtake Alkosh for dungeons was great, but there's still no reason to wear sets with resistance. Atm, tanks feel like defensive supports. Sure you hold the boss, but you're mostly there to buff the dps.

This is why I said the problem lies with the META, we're slaves to the damage-dealers. The META is about 'MOAH MOAH MOAH DPS!!!" It's rewarding brute force and supporting not the whole team, but the DPS players only. I've observed many DPS players who now spec themselves with only 16K health because they fully expect to only run with a Tank who runs Ebon. What other role has become so arrogant as to demand a set worn by another role in their actual statistical build? Even SPC itself can be foregone in a pinch, but when the META has conditioned and trained the majority of the playerbase (Damage-dealers) to tailor their own builds on the assumption that a Tank player will cover their health? Something has gone seriously wrong.

Kadoin

gabriebe wrote: »

Bring back tanks to Cyrodiil. Yes, it sucks when you are unable to kill one guy, but tanks serve the purpose of being pug magnets to push breaches and such. The consistent nerfs to blocking have had the results of homogeneizing everyone's playstyle to the point where it just becomes a numbers game. I miss seeing DKs tank 20 people + away from a fight so their group could push through. They don't even need to damage, but man allow them to live a little bit longer than they can right now.

When did tanks leave Cyrodil?

Rungar

armor rating needs a rework because its useless.

there should be bonuses for high armor ratings (30k+).

1) stun resistance (reduce stun duration)
2) one-shot survival chance ( get knocked across the screen, 99%dmg and long stun instead) like a base dodge for tanks


right now a guy in a dress holding up a stick can take a hit better than you if your not blocking.

Dedricus

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

This is why I said the problem lies with the META, we're slaves to the damage-dealers.

While I agree that the meta does revolve around dps, statistically speaking, you can't say Ebon is a "garbage" set. It literally benefits everyone.

Aside from that, everyone seems to be on the same page. #maketanksgreatagain

RavenSworn

I hate the fact that if I slot in the shield ult, it's a selfish skill. If I use a set other than ebon, it's a selfish set. If I use abilities that help with my survival, it's a selfish build.

I mean... There's nothing else to tanking. Thats just not tanking to me.

#MakeTanksGreatAgain

WhiteNoiseMaker

RavenSworn wrote: »

I hate the fact that if I slot in the shield ult, it's a selfish skill. If I use a set other than ebon, it's a selfish set. If I use abilities that help with my survival, it's a selfish build.

I mean... There's nothing else to tanking. Thats just not tanking to me.

#MakeTanksGreatAgain

And that's just the thing, it's "selfish" even though a DD never slots or wears anything to help anyone else in the party. "But my role is about doing damage!" they will say... And yet OUR role is about tanking, taking damage, controlling with CC, and protecting our party members, but we're expected to wear sets like Alkosh which are anything but tanking-related, we're expected to give up survivability or utility for the DD's to get that extra .07% of damage. I absolutely refuse to wear Ebon these days because it's become a demand, an expectation like a Right they're entitled to. I'll wear Lord Warden and Brands of the Imperium instead, to give my party that extra survivability, and if the DD's complain about not wanting to stand within 8m of me, I want to respond that they're being selfish and cowardly. "Get in there and fight!" I want to say. >_<

Dedricus wrote: »

While I agree that the meta does revolve around dps, statistically speaking, you can't say Ebon is a "garbage" set. It literally benefits everyone.

Aside from that, everyone seems to be on the same page. #maketanksgreatagain

I think you confused me with another poster. I never called Ebon garbage. I merely commented that what was supposed to be one tool amongst many in the tanking toolbox, has instead become an expectation from grubby DD's.

phaneub17_ESO

you know what, forget I said anything...

greylox

Aoe taunt.

ZeroXFF

Aside from the issues with tanking that individual classes have, there is this:
1. Bar swaps resulting in 1-shots.
2. No viable end game gear options. It's always ebon+alkosh+ infused weapon with crusher (and always war horn in the ulti slot, which isn't a piece of gear, but is a symptom of the same problem).

aeowulf

1) Loadout diversity - ebon & alkosh are almost the definition of a tank these days, as is warhorn. If there was one single set or skill that was 20% better dps than anything else, it would get nerfed to oblivion, or any of the other single player ES games.

2) Class diversity - we'll see how this pans out with the release of Summerset. I've not yet seen anything other than DK/Warden tanks in vet finder when on my DPS (but I will also state I'm not going in as much on DPS at the moment, as i'm refreshing myself with DK tanking)

RavenSworn

My first posting was just a rant so I'll try to make it clear for this one.

1) I want tanking to be... Tanking. Not a debuffs bot. Not just a meat shield. I want dps to make a conscious effort to set their own buffs and help out the group as a whole, rather than just numbers.

2) I feel that right now, the classes for tanking are spread out evenly, with all the buffs for tanking for each class. Might need a bit more adjustments but it's in a good place right now.

ZeroXFF

Now that I think of it, there is one more issue with tanks... Ridiculously low dps when leveling. If dps of low lvl tanks was increased enough for them to actually be able to quest at a bit more than a snail's pace, the normal dungeon queue might actually not be at a permanent standstill.

Maybe add something like increasing spell and weapon damage of skills (leaving bash unaffected) while blocking with 1hs or ice staff by a % of max HP+resists (but keep it low enough that sacrificing other stats and weaving with proper weapons isn't worth it to DDs even in PvP, and maybe even tie it to a taunt being slotted on the skill bar).

Example formula:
(HP+phys resist+mag resist - 50k)/40 = spell and weapon damage bonus.

NBrookus

1) Make tanks useful in Cyro again. Tanks should push breachs, protect players, pull aggro and control the battlefield. But people whined about tanks doing their job, so now we have more unavoidable damage and stuns to kill tanks. More people tanked up, put on heavy armor and used the extra damage themselves and now most of Cyro is tanky, but not tanking as a role.

Heavy armor should buff sustain, provide utility and buff solo and group survivability, not damage. Heavy armor sets with damage bonuses need to go.

2) Immovable. Make this skill worthwhile. It's expensive AND it's total junk