[Class Rep] Tanking Feedback Thread

aeowulf

A new player has poor DPS whether they are tank or DPs spec'd. When said new player starts heading down the tank route, they make a conscious decision to move away from DPS, just like moving towards DPS. The only issue in this 'triangle' is healing/magDPS both scale off the same stat. In a lot of ways it would be better to have each stat for one role. There are plenty of heavy sets that have damage stats. Why not wear these, and equip taunts? Someone who wants to do both must be willing to drop a bit in one area.

The moment you start considering multiple gear sets, you are no longer a 'new player' & becoming more defined in your role. It's this point that multiple gear sets could be considered. Before this you are somewhat lucky to have a complete set that is vaguely correct level.

The demoralising thing <at the new player point> is taking 30 seconds to kill something when someone comes along and one shots it. Happens when you are playing DPS too... You just don't know at that time they have 700+ CP and perfect gear/playstyle.

Why there are no tanks in end game is another thing entirely. I have a toon that jumps between heavy or medium armour depending on what i'm doing. As to why there are none in finder? Personally for me it comes down to being boring (compared to my old sap tank) and the lack of perceived viability at end game for non DK/Warden. Sort out this perceived viability and you'll get a massive increase in the number of tanks.

White wabbit

Durham wrote: »

We need to seriously look at some of the over performing classes in PVP and changes need to happen...
NB's and Sorc's are flat out performing the other classes... Not sure what else to say ...

Not sure how that has any reference to a tanking thread

Maura_Neysa

Saderis wrote: »

Problem with people suggesting tanks to carry different gear and skillset is that: they do not seems to think about the whole player base. Imagine: a person who plays this game for year+ would be somewhat ok with it (although its plain stupid and unfair that only one role have to do so), but think about new players wishing to play as tank. What will happen? They will hit the wall of boredom, inferiority feeling vs dps, and sorry to say it - stupid suggestions like carry dps gear. One should learn how to be a tank in easy solo content. Earn experience, see how CC works. They will not do it by swapping for dps stuff just to duel a mudcrab in less then 39minutes.
Once again see the problem: VERY few tanks in game.
Identify why this problem occur - people say: Boring, slavery to dps role, low dps, not rewarding gameplay.
Suggestion: "dont play tanks, play dps" - really?
While it's true for dps and healers to also carry different gear for VETERAN CONTENT, asking players to do the same just for being able to do most basic content in the game is a stupid, close-minded suggestion.
Why a new person should choose to play tank when he is forced to swap into dps anyway. If he is forced to do so, why not give up on tanking on go on with fully speced dd?
48minutes in PUG queue - oh yeah, it's fine.

Also people saying NO to skill change because of pvp - you're awared that pve and pvp skills differ already right?

We are talking about 2 sets of gear here. Honestly I carry 7 different armor sets for tanking alone.
- Tanking - Ebon, Alkosh, Torug's, Eternal, Dragonguard, Plague, Desert, Sanctuary, Lord Warden, Blood Spawn.
- World Questing - I have Necropotence, and War Maiden.
- I also only change out 4 skills, War Horn, Pierce Armor, Inner Fire, and Gate.

I behave the same way, I just tank the mobs and block a lot less. Some times I dont even bother dropping Pierce Armor, because then when I come up on some random person getting handled by a World Boss I just start tanking in Light Armor. Because personally WB are not an issue, not even most DLC ones. If I wasn't such an experienced tank then I don't have to take aggro. I have 53 days play time on a Warden tank. Its always been a tank. I don't re-roll my CP. I don't ever que up as anything but a tank (why would anyone?) It is my main and its the character I've accomplished the most on. The "hardest" part is the need for like 20 extra skill points for the 4 new skills and and the extra 2 Light Armor passives (or Medium if thats more your tanks style)

ZeroXFF

DoobZ69 wrote: »

I_B_Squishy wrote: »

It put a spotlight on the game and at least half of Everquest's entire player base jumped ship and played WOW when it was finally released. A year later Everquest was for all intents and purposes a dead game. Furor btw, was a warrior.

game going in the same direction because it seems nobody has figured out that support is NOT fun.

LOL no-one in WOW suggests levelling as a tank build/gear so you bring up the exact argument against what you are suggesting. Protection warriors are a joke in PVP. A tank warrior in defensive stance gets a -15% damage and +30% (don't remember the exact numbers) threat generation and hit like an absolute wet noodle. You brought up the exact worst possible example you could. Well done.

For those who don't know: In that game for PVP you go Arms warrior (2handed), for PVE you go fury (dual-weild) and for tanking you go (1hand+board) and if you level you DO NOT go Protection because its so much slower. You wear a separate set of DPS gear for solo at end level and you re-skill if you go PVP. Again, well done sir, well done.

Now stop derailing this discussion. Tanks should tank and this is what this discussion is about. If I want to level fast I wear tanking gear and run dungeons - lvl 50 in days. If I want to do quests while levelling I don't wear tanking gear/skills. Once I am at CP level I wear a set of DPS gear and have around 10k dps which is on a 3mill dummy and the trash for quests and delves melts because their HP is so low. I swap gear with a click of a button and it takes up 14 slots of my 200 inventory bag. I PVP without swapping a single one of my skills and, again, only swap gear. Grow a pair and be a real tank.

Sigh... Now to talking tanking....

Uhm... I was always playing as a feral and later guardian druid there (once the skill line was split), and pulling half the zone and AoEing it down was always a very effective way of leveling as a tank. Single target is a bit slower, but with the increasing number of targets not only is it faster because you kill more targets, but also because single target damage scales with incoming damage. And the difference is certainly not a factor of 20, even on single target.

And I just looked at one of the videos our guild did back when I was still playing WoW, and top DD did 77k and the tanks did 36 and 38k each (here is the link in case you want to see, the orange and pink bar on the damage meter are the tanks). In ESO numbers that would mean a trial tank should be doing 20-25k DPS. In fact on some fights in raids we were picking the main tank based on the damage they do, because main tank damage accounted for about 20% of the damage of a 10 man raid group in those fights.

So please don't spread misinformation. Leveling as a tank in WoW is not any more annoying than leveling in general. Maybe it was a drag in vanila, but there is a reason they gave tanks more damage later on.

I_B_Squishy

Bottom line tank is the least played build in ESO by a huge margin. I mentioned instant dungeons for tanks before but it’s even worse because tons of players queue as tanks when they’re really DD’S.

Now some have mentioned keep tank damage the same but may I ask how is that going to get more people to play tanks?

Tonturri

1) Class diversity. DK/warden are pretty much the top of the totem pole, while other classes aren't due to, for example, sorcs and how their main class defense, shields, conflicts with literally every defense tanks depend on.

2) A continuation of above - tanking is one dimensional. You do x y and z in EXACTLY x y and z way. This is what makes all other classes inferior to DK tanks - tanking is stacking health so you aren't 1-shot and then taunting while holding block and buffing your DPS. Other classes besides DK have a multitude of defensive and support capability that DK doesn't, but because they don't gear towards either increasing your group member's DPS or making you more efficient at holding down block, they're not used. This is in part due to the design of each fight and in part due to class design - again mentioning sorcs, shields don't benefit at all from resistances or block, and shield strength decreases if you get up to required health levels...And round and round the 'the usefulness of my class defense decreases if I want to try and tank'.

After a certain point, block and pretty much everything a DK does better than all the other classes becomes more effective than anything else another class can offer. This point is somewhere in between vet DLC dungeons and normal/vet trials. I LOVE tanking vet dlc dungeons because I can run my heavy armor nightblade with 25k health and use heals/timed/skillful blocking to survive instead of being a meat shield. I can even contribute some aoe and single target dps if I really want to push myself. I can really push myself to survive as a tank while pushing out meaningful DPS and heals. In vet trials, I can't do any of that.

TLDR tanking is boring. Take a look at what tanks in TERA have to do in order to be considered 'good'.

Narvuntien

Is blocking just straight up too effective at reducing damage?

I think maybe the blocking mechanics of the game need to be looked at.

When being a tank is basically don't get one shot (sustain while blocking) and increase group dps. It's all about hitting survival thresholds and blocking.

The tanks don't really need to build that tanky and don't really need very many of the large variety of defensive skills/buffs in the game. Because block is far and away the most effective one.

The better a tank you are the closer to the line you can get. Since you can aviod one shots by knowing when to block and you can focus on increasing group dps.

Maura_Neysa

Narvuntien wrote: »

Is blocking just straight up too effective at reducing damage?

I think maybe the blocking mechanics of the game need to be looked at.

When being a tank is basically don't get one shot (sustain while blocking) and increase group dps. It's all about hitting survival thresholds and blocking.

The tanks don't really need to build that tanky and don't really need very many of the large variety of defensive skills/buffs in the game. Because block is far and away the most effective one.

The better a tank you are the closer to the line you can get. Since you can aviod one shots by knowing when to block and you can focus on increasing group dps.

The most effective Damage reduction in the game is Mist Form at 75%, the 2nd most effective is blocking at 60% base. I maintain high block time because even with Block up I can't survive The Warriors 1000 Cuts without a pot/full mag/an Ulti ready if the Healer isn't paying attention to me.
The fact that I need to block in order to survive is absolutely not "the issue" the fact that EVERYONE thinks knowing mechanics is irrelevant because "just DPS through it"
Honestly I am not paying that much attention to the boss because I'm doing a hundred other things. Pulling mobs, watching some other mechanic that isn't line of sight to anyone else.
Sure that level isnt always needed. vSO Mantorka, only thing that kills me is the DPS not blocking. His attacks are weak and Popcorn ridiculously easy to see coming.
Twins again, following ads, interrupting ads, avoiding negates, avoiding a DPS trying to nuke me, not always watching for that HA. If I get a group that burns the ads fast so I only have a few to track, DPS I can count on not to nuke me, anyone else that can call out Prayer phase, because I have long way to run if I'm on Vashi.
I'm not thinking of perfect score run groups, I'm talking about groups that should be able to farm there gold jewelry if they could get their act together.

BejaProphet

Thought you guys might enjoy this quote since the community sees Liofa as something of an authority on tanking.


"There is not a single fight left in this game that requires permablocking. Not axes, not bloodroot. Everything can be done easily without permablocking. Permablocking can even kill the tank in some cases. " -Liofa

Source. Discord channel TONKS. Sub channel PVE tanking discussion, #Sorcerer last thursday at 6:59 am

Liofa

BejaProphet wrote: »

Thought you guys might enjoy this quote since the community sees Liofa as something of an authority on tanking.


"There is not a single fight left in this game that requires permablocking. Not axes, not bloodroot. Everything can be done easily without permablocking. Permablocking can even kill the tank in some cases. " -Liofa

Source. Discord channel TONKS. Sub channel PVE tanking discussion, #Sorcerer last thursday at 6:59 am

Just to make it clear, it is that way thanks to Major Protection while casting Deep Thoughts. I've tanked axes while meditating and only blocking the heavy attacks. Also did the same in Bloodroot. It is so much easier that way ^^

Maura_Neysa

Even without Meditate, you don’t HAVE to Permablock. You do however have to default Block and only let up when you know you have the window for it. Yes that gets tricky once you have 5 or 6 AA Axes on you. It also takes that many Axes before I start even asking for Shards. 8 Axes is the most I’ve even done myself. By then I felt a did actually have to Permablock. Though that may have been just because 8 was extremely hard to track each individually see through Axe

As I’ve said before though, I’m not actually watching the Axes that close though. I’m watching mechanics, looking for new Reflections, calling out pimples that are out of LoS of DPS, even trying to proc my Crusher on The Mage or Reflections via Wall if I can reach from my rock.

DoobZ69

Speaking of tanking classes.

Does ZOS intend for every class to be able to tank on equal terms across all medium? Solo, PvP, dungeons, trials, or is every other class other than DK just living a hopeless dream? I don't think this was ever clarified by ZOS officially. Churr

Unit117

1. How all the other classes are just shadows to the dragon knight. It’s not That the dk is op. It’s the other classes are incredibly weak in their tanking roles. Dragonknight have group imobillization, a pull in, passives that actually benefit them. Like the huge resource recovery from ulting and a ultimate that tops damage at 3%. No other class has a tanking ult near as good as that. And thier self heal is far superior because it is instant. Sorcerers clanfear is double the cost, nightblades does 33% but over 3 seconds so enemies shred through it. And wardens winter one is just terrible only 15% and and 10% over 10 seconds. That is pathetic. You lose healthwhile holding a sheild faster than that. This needs to be 25% with 15 over 3 seconds at a very minimum. It’s like y’all don’t want any other tank doing dlc vet dungeons and trials except for dragon knights. Rework the tanking setup for other classes to actually compete with dragon knights. It’s currently way to difficult to do current vet dlc on anything but a dk.

2. Ice staves. They deserve their own skill line. Most of the current abilities dont help tanking. They are also incredibly slow at thier heavy attack taunt. Speed up thier heavy attack by 50% to keep up with things like puncture and inner rage. The shield and blocking are also super weak. S&b just completely out does it. Also since you rely on slow heavy attacks and shields we get completely stomped by cc a s&b block isn’t effected by. I staves need cc restiance so we aren’t getting knocked around all fight while trying to keep a rotation going that you die if drop. I love ice staff tanking. It’s alot of fun but again your dlcs are too much for it.

Tone down the diffulty of your vet dlc for and up the buffs so we can viably play more than Dks. I want to use my other tanks in dlcs and trials. Not just my dragonknight.

xI_The_Owl_Ix

DoobZ69 wrote: »

Speaking of tanking classes.

Does ZOS intend for every class to be able to tank on equal terms across all medium? Solo, PvP, dungeons, trials, or is every other class other than DK just living a hopeless dream? I don't think this was ever clarified by ZOS officially. Churr

Pretty much this! After reading the nerfs to NB Tanks next patch I honestly hope they give us a class change token. Then they dont have to balance the classes anymore and I can finally play harder trials!

Maura_Neysa

Unit117 wrote: »

1. How all the other classes are just shadows to the dragon knight. It’s not That the dk is op. It’s the other classes are incredibly weak in their tanking roles. Dragonknight have group imobillization, a pull in, passives that actually benefit them. Like the huge resource recovery from ulting and a ultimate that tops damage at 3%. No other class has a tanking ult near as good as that. And thier self heal is far superior because it is instant. Sorcerers clanfear is double the cost, nightblades does 33% but over 3 seconds so enemies shred through it. And wardens winter one is just terrible only 15% and and 10% over 10 seconds. That is pathetic. You lose healthwhile holding a sheild faster than that. This needs to be 25% with 15 over 3 seconds at a very minimum. It’s like y’all don’t want any other tank doing dlc vet dungeons and trials except for dragon knights. Rework the tanking setup for other classes to actually compete with dragon knights. It’s currently way to difficult to do current vet dlc on anything but a dk.

2. Ice staves. They deserve their own skill line. Most of the current abilities dont help tanking. They are also incredibly slow at thier heavy attack taunt. Speed up thier heavy attack by 50% to keep up with things like puncture and inner rage. The shield and blocking are also super weak. S&b just completely out does it. Also since you rely on slow heavy attacks and shields we get completely stomped by cc a s&b block isn’t effected by. I staves need cc restiance so we aren’t getting knocked around all fight while trying to keep a rotation going that you die if drop. I love ice staff tanking. It’s alot of fun but again your dlcs are too much for it.

Tone down the diffulty of your vet dlc for and up the buffs so we can viably play more than Dks. I want to use my other tanks in dlcs and trials. Not just my dragonknight.

I guess you have never Tanked on a Warden. The only reason they haven't replaced DK is because MagDK is crap.
- Wardens have every CC of DK plus Chilled and its Root proc.
- Warden resistance passive is even instead of lopsided.
- Wardens have just as good resource sustain as DK. Even better Stam potential,.
- Forest absolutely smokes Magma Shell for suitability.
- Self heal, yes Arctic is weak, but combined with Leeching or Budding you have plenty. I'd like to see 20% up front and 10% over 10 second. That skill needs to stay 10 seconds for the Chill. Maybe if Polar was front loaded and Arctic was over time but both were 30% total, then I think that would be balanced with every other classes 30% health heals.

Frost Staff, I run it just fine. Yes the taunt is useless, the Tri Focus passive is useless.
S&B has 3 advantages over Frost.
- Battle Field Mobility - 60% movement speed while blocking.
- Defect Bolts - 15% damage reduction of projectile attacks.
- The actual shields worth of resistance - like 2k.
Fixes - Tri Focus Passive (Don't care if they keep the current Tri Focus or not, also fine with Pulling Frost to its own skill line)
- While blocking with an Ice Staff equipped you conjure an Ice Shield with; either resistance or [x] damage shield every [x] seconds thinkng Lunar Bastion)
- While blocking with an Ice Staff it reduces the effectiveness of snares by 15%
- While blocking with an Ice Staff block an additional 15% of melee attacks. (Immunity to Roots?)

Please dont adjust vDLC dungeons, they shouldn't be everyone content. They should be an achievement to do, something to work for. (At the same time people should stop crapping on people who are reaching for them)

xI_The_Owl_Ix

@Maura_Neysa

Im like 80% sure that there are other classes than Warden and Dragonknight. We should stop only talking about them. I guess theres a reason why the "authority on tanking" only has DK and Warden Tank builds up.

I have to agree on the vDLC Dungeons topic though. They are fine. I can tank them without a healer on a NB. The issue are trials.

Maura_Neysa

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa

Im like 80% sure that there are other classes than Warden and Dragonknight. We should stop only talking about them. I guess theres a reason why the "authority on tanking" only has DK and Warden Tank builds up.

I have to agree on the vDLC Dungeons topic though. They are fine. I can tank them without a healer on a NB. The issue are trials.

There are? I mean Templars if you throw them dead bodies, but does that count?

Sophocles1

As a newish tank, I would say that when I maxed my other classes for dungeons they also did great in pve. When I maxed my tank for dungeons pve became awful. Bummer

White wabbit

Sophocles1 wrote: »

As a newish tank, I would say that when I maxed my other classes for dungeons they also did great in pve. When I maxed my tank for dungeons pve became awful. Bummer

So what your trying to say is that you want your tank to be able to do high damage in Pve ? But still be very tanky

Saderis

White wabbit wrote: »

So what your trying to say is that you want your tank to be able to do high damage in Pve ? But still be very tanky

Yeah, nothing like magsorc right? /sarcasm off

I would say he didn't want "high" damage but at least moderate one which is not 2k dps.

DoobZ69

Saderis wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

So what your trying to say is that you want your tank to be able to do high damage in Pve ? But still be very tanky

Yeah, nothing like magsorc right? /sarcasm off

I would say he didn't want "high" damage but at least moderate one which is not 2k dps.

Honestly mate, no-one knows what you're talking about. Give us your race, class, gear and skills you use and we can see what the hell you're talking about. It honestly sounds like you are still equipped with prisoner gear from the beginning of the game or something and peddling nonsense. Please.

I_B_Squishy

There are a lot of great suggestions in this thread to improve tanking, however none will get more people playing tanks EXCEPT if you improve the tank's solo capabilities which should probably include improving damage

aeowulf

DPS continually improves patch after patch.

Tanking just seems to get harder/less fun each patch. That's why no one wants to play tank.

Combined with 3 classes not being wanted for end game trials (which means that filters down to easier content) means the pool is already reduced by 60% the moment people realise they are not playing a desired tank class. If a role for any class is significantly tougher to play, it should be capable of superior things. Right now, the easiest tank is also the best. Needs balancing. This is the first game i've ever played where I dread patches/expansions

Facefister

I tank with Sorc

Gprime31

An alternative to chains but same idea, that uses Stam would be nice.

NBrookus

Gprime31 wrote: »

An alternative to chains but same idea, that uses Stam would be nice.

Silver Leash.

usmcjdking

IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.

There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:

(5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.

(5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.

(5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.

(5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.

(5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.

Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.

casparian

usmcjdking wrote: »

IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. [...] There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources.

Exactly this is the reason I can't hold any interest in tanking, despite leveling as a tank and starting the game as a stamDK who intended to main tank. No matter how the mechanics change, it's mostly just the same thing, fight after fight: block, conserve resources, and wait for the DPS to do the real work.

Maura_Neysa

Gprime31 wrote: »

An alternative to chains but same idea, that uses Stam would be nice.

@Gprime31 Silver Leash isnt good enough for you?

@usmcjdking very interesting set ideas!

RavenSworn

usmcjdking wrote: »

IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.

There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:

(5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.

(5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.

(5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.

(5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.

(5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.

Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.

This might just be the changes Tanking needs. The problem with tanking is not the amount of damage it does, its what tanking does in the game that is needs work. Tanking needs to feel tanking, not as a dps slave. Thats why most of the time, the actions needed for a tank are just block, block, taunt, block. its frustrating.

Questing wise, its inefficient to just use S/S for levelling. theres more than enough skill points to level a different weapon, one that can provide the extra dps while questing. Its what the combat system is designed for anyway.