[Class Rep] Tanking Feedback Thread

aeowulf

Narvuntien wrote: »

There is one BIG thing I noticed that i think significantly contributes to people feeling like they need to perma block. I can't see the one shots because there is sooo much visual clutter on screen, many bosses make all these flames and there is lightning sparking everywhere so It can be really difficult to focus on the animations the boss is doing.

You get red circles for all damage without any way to tell if its a CC damage, a one shot you have to block or a little tickle of an AoE. So you just see all these red circles and you just don't get any idea which ones are lethal.

Yes!! I've been shouting about this for ages, and it's way worse in trials or with multiple mobs. If you perma-block it's impossible to miss the block window so a DK is at a HUGE advantage for that reason alone. It's not just about the permanent extra mitigation of incoming damage or immunity to CC...

I'm honestly starting to get a bit sick of all the bright effects now, I want to see the mobs again.

Balance means all or no classes getting a huge advantage over the others.

aeowulf

BejaProphet wrote: »

4. The fight has truly been designed to be so difficult that even though we have built our characters well, and our group is doing their job, the only feasible way to survive is to perma block.

I am arguing that the instances of number 4 in the game could be counted on one hand. Every other time a tank is perma blocking it is only NEEDED because either we or our group aren't functioning optimally.

Whilst these instances exist AT ALL it excludes any class that can't perma block. A non-DK/warden won't look good if they rock up and say 'oh, sure, I can tank just not tonights vAA run...'

These instances need removing or perma-block needs being viable for all. And whilst playing argonian may be an answer, it is not a class fix.

SquareSausage

God, there are really some silly suggestions in here.

Demanding tanks have more DPS, well lets consider, a tank is a damage taker, not a damage dealer, youre chosen role is implicitly to soak up the damage and we do that with a combination of sets, skills and CP. This is a known, in all and every game there ever has been. Giving a fully specced tank high dps potential imbalances PvP into the bargain.

Here's an idea, if people want to faceroll dungeons with 4 dps, then play your dps char, if you dont have one, then level one. Its not tanks job to be banging out 'top deeps'. The tank comes into being in trials, vet dungeons and PvP.

The rule of thumb for levelling a tank if you want to do it fast is level as a dps and slot s&b skills on your bars as you level. This is the same for every character choice, healers and DPS.

Playing a Tank is a conscious choice. Having your cake and eating it is not an option.

I_B_Squishy

SquareSausage wrote: »

Giving a fully specced tank high dps potential imbalances PvP into the bargain.

Not if you code a damage hit for taunt in PVP, actually coding differently for PVP and PVE, which was what I suggested. Boost the sword and board line for PVE. Boost taunt damage. There tons of higher damage options for heavy armor wearers in PVP that are already being used, and remember, a *fully* specced tank is going to have low weapon damage.

SquareSausage wrote: »

Here's an idea, if people want to faceroll dungeons with 4 dps, then play your dps char, if you dont have one, then level one. Its not tanks job to be banging out 'top deeps'. The tank comes into being in trials, vet dungeons and PvP.

I have 9 characters, 2 tanks and 5 DD's, and 2 DD/healer hybrids. I play all classes. I faceroll dungeons with 4 DD's daily. I also do Battlegrounds and Cyrodil to a minimum of 2 million AP a month. I also main tank vet trials. What you are stating about a "tanks job" is programming and easily altered, especially in this game where someone can go from DD to tank to healer in less that 15 minutes by respeccing and using an add on. All i'm suggesting is making tanking more enjoyable by boosting taunt damage so the tank can solo.

SquareSausage wrote: »

The rule of thumb for levelling a tank if you want to do it fast is level as a dps and slot s&b skills on your bars as you level. This is the same for every character choice, healers and DPS.

Playing a Tank is a conscious choice. Having your cake and eating it is not an option.

Oh it's definitely an option and not only an option but a part of every class; a top spec healer can turn into a 50k+ DPS damage dealer with a couple clicks.

SquareSausage

I_B_Squishy wrote: »

Not if you code a damage hit for taunt in PVP, actually coding differently for PVP and PVE, which was what I suggested. Boost the sword and board line for PVE. Boost taunt damage. There tons of higher damage options for heavy armor wearers in PVP that are already being used, and remember, a *fully* specced tank is going to have low weapon damage.

ZoS have specifically said numerous times that they want PvP and PvE skills and sets to play the same so coding differently is probably not an option.

I_B_Squishy wrote: »

I have 9 characters, 2 tanks and 5 DD's, and 2 DD/healer hybrids. I play all classes. I faceroll dungeons with 4 DD's daily. I also do Battlegrounds and Cyrodil to a minimum of 2 million AP a month. I also main tank vet trials. What you are stating about a "tanks job" is programming and easily altered, especially in this game where someone can go from DD to tank to healer in less that 15 minutes by respeccing and using an add on. All i'm suggesting is making tanking more enjoyable by boosting taunt damage so the tank can solo.

Oh it's definitely an option and not only an option but a part of every class; a top spec healer can turn into a 50k+ DPS damage dealer with a couple clicks.

All of this i don't get, tanking sets and skills aren't for solo damage, if you want to solo on your tank, do as you said with the healer and swap skills and sets, its that simple. We have so many CP now a tank can afford to put points into Mighty, thaumaturge etc and still be fully CP specced tank.

Noldornir

How did the tank learnt to play his role at all if he's not "needed" until vets?

In this game tanking is very different as well so being a pro tank elsewhere gives little help and the difference between 2 tanks is often how they know the stage/boss.

Many dungeon bosses has short-channeled attacks which ignores taunts and u can interrupt it but have less than a sec.

If you only played as DPS you can't probably tell when the boss is about to do it hence you can't bash in time hence most DDs are oneshotted.

In BH there's this boss "First Mate Wavecutter" which is very weak but has this one mechanic

Shadow Volley that deals severe magic damage to all players

This actually can oneshot (1 person always tends to die in pugs) but can also be bashed/interrupted even if it's hard.

How do you learn to face bosses/mobs?

Also remember that this game is HUGE and have many "secrets" things; i started as a DK tank and it took me a while to properly use my chains.

Sure they pull in but there's much more:

• Use them on bosses/big guys for being faster and save stamina (in AS they can get you in and out of big AoEs)
• They DO taunt (softly) once you know em and their limits/strenghts well enough even if it's not written anywhere.
• They cost no mag. on big guys and their cost is little compared to inner fire, plus they can put burning due to passives.

This is just an example but i don't think that a game should force you to play another role until you hit a certain level unless you don't wont it to take 5 times the usual. We need to play our roles some time to be really good at them.

Healers and Tanks particularry needs this "experience" (healing is also very different in eso) to learn how to play, a misplaced healer standing in front of DPS is only buffing/healing the tank, a tank not rotating the boss is going to wipe the party from conic attacks and so on.

I do agree with you that DPS is not the solution (it could be one but could unbalance too many things; in PVE they could buff monsters in group content but in PVP one 10-15k puncture could be bad... so bad that they should increase the cost but that would be a problem while taunting ).

If you don't want a tank in a Dungeon it's because he/she's not needed and this simply put should never be, since we already got a debuffer role we might as well work n refine that to make it better and in a way that the tank debuff are preferable than another DD.

Many ppl runs the Vdsa healerless because it works better but this should never be. If this phenomena is occuring it's the game that's telling us something:

"I am not balanced well (in this situation)"

Talking 'bout VDSA not some normal banished cells like dungeon farmed by 4 750 CP DDs

I_B_Squishy

SquareSausage wrote: »

I_B_Squishy wrote: »

All of this i don't get, tanking sets and skills aren't for solo damage

Why not?

Because someone told you so and you're locked into it.

Heavy armor builds aren't supposed to be able to kill in PVP, yet they are already. Healers shouldn't be able to swap bars and kill people, yet they do. Nightblades, dragon knights, and even sorcs shouldn't be able to heal, yet they do.

This game is about versatility, don't stop at tanks, it makes no sense.

ZeroXFF

aeowulf wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

4. The fight has truly been designed to be so difficult that even though we have built our characters well, and our group is doing their job, the only feasible way to survive is to perma block.

I am arguing that the instances of number 4 in the game could be counted on one hand. Every other time a tank is perma blocking it is only NEEDED because either we or our group aren't functioning optimally.

Whilst these instances exist AT ALL it excludes any class that can't perma block. A non-DK/warden won't look good if they rock up and say 'oh, sure, I can tank just not tonights vAA run...'

These instances need removing or perma-block needs being viable for all. And whilst playing argonian may be an answer, it is not a class fix.

I can easily tank axes in vAA hm on a high elf templar tank, even 5 or 6 aren't much of an issue. I do have to switch to a different setup (3x block cost reduction on jewelry, remove stamina skills and only use magicka taunt). The only thing preventing me from permablocking on other fights is the expectation that a tank always has to use War Horn as ultimate and no reliable way of applying minor maim without dumping 1/5 of my stamina on an otherwise useless skill every 15 seconds (frost blockade should guarantee minor maim application every tick instead of it being an unreliable proc).

The only problem I have with Templars specifically is the lack of utility and no useful defensive skills scaling with HP, which forces me to stack magicka instead of HP while still preventing me from using ice staff to block because I would be instantly knocked down if I dared switching bars.

This approach prevents me from being useful in other fights. On Ozara in vSO I can't handle the adds by myself (on a DK it's not a problem at all, even if healers are sleeping). And in vFL hm I just don't have enough HP and no AoE root to deal with the mechanics.

On the upside though the high magicka pool means that I can do enough dps to finish fights/push phases even if I'm running with a group of potatoes (vWGT last boss if they constantly die in the shield phase I can kill the adds by myself before the pushback becomes too strong).

SquareSausage

Noldornir wrote: »

How did the tank learnt to play his role at all if he's not "needed" until vets?

In this game tanking is very different as well so being a pro tank elsewhere gives little help and the difference between 2 tanks is often how they know the stage/boss.

Many dungeon bosses has short-channeled attacks which ignores taunts and u can interrupt it but have less than a sec.

If you only played as DPS you can't probably tell when the boss is about to do it hence you can't bash in time hence most DDs are oneshotted.

In BH there's this boss "First Mate Wavecutter" which is very weak but has this one mechanic

Shadow Volley that deals severe magic damage to all players

This actually can oneshot (1 person always tends to die in pugs) but can also be bashed/interrupted even if it's hard.

How do you learn to face bosses/mobs?

I agree, being a good tank is knowing when to follow mechanics, when things are about to happen, often the tank will be raid leader.

The levelling as a DPS is for people who want to level fast and outside of group content.

For new tanks i would suggest queing as a tank in your tank gear and playing the content out as a tank. You can queue as a tank for random dungeons in no time and that gives you good experience.
But when you are grinding you put on some dps set with training trait and use dps skills in overland with an exp scroll/pot to get up faster.
i do this when levelling a healer or tank, its fast effective and you learn as you go.

I_B_Squishy wrote: »

Why not?

Because someone told you so and you're locked into it.

Heavy armor builds aren't supposed to be able to kill in PVP, yet they are already. Healers shouldn't be able to swap bars and kill people, yet they do. Nightblades, dragon knights, and even sorcs shouldn't be able to heal, yet they do.

This game is about versatility, don't stop at tanks, it makes no sense.

No, because if you look at 'tank' skills ie s&b they are neither AOE or high burst, thats why, and not because someone told me.

Heavy armour builds are not Tanks, they may be tanky, but there is a difference.
Same with healers, if they swap bars and kill you then they are not full healers but hybrids.

You are basically saying what I'm saying, if you want to do damage on a 'tank' or 'healer' have a back bar with damage skills combined with atleast one set.

A trails healer build or trials tank build will kill nobody or any creature very fast.

this is going in circles, you are arguing against me with exactly what I already said

ZeroXFF

SquareSausage wrote: »

Noldornir wrote: »

How did the tank learnt to play his role at all if he's not "needed" until vets?

In this game tanking is very different as well so being a pro tank elsewhere gives little help and the difference between 2 tanks is often how they know the stage/boss.

Many dungeon bosses has short-channeled attacks which ignores taunts and u can interrupt it but have less than a sec.

If you only played as DPS you can't probably tell when the boss is about to do it hence you can't bash in time hence most DDs are oneshotted.

In BH there's this boss "First Mate Wavecutter" which is very weak but has this one mechanic

Shadow Volley that deals severe magic damage to all players

This actually can oneshot (1 person always tends to die in pugs) but can also be bashed/interrupted even if it's hard.

How do you learn to face bosses/mobs?

I agree, being a good tank is knowing when to follow mechanics, when things are about to happen, often the tank will be raid leader.

The levelling as a DPS is for people who want to level fast and outside of group content.

For new tanks i would suggest queing as a tank in your tank gear and playing the content out as a tank. You can queue as a tank for random dungeons in no time and that gives you good experience.
But when you are grinding you put on some dps set with training trait and use dps skills in overland with an exp scroll/pot to get up faster.
i do this when levelling a healer or tank, its fast effective and you learn as you go.

I_B_Squishy wrote: »

Why not?

Because someone told you so and you're locked into it.

Heavy armor builds aren't supposed to be able to kill in PVP, yet they are already. Healers shouldn't be able to swap bars and kill people, yet they do. Nightblades, dragon knights, and even sorcs shouldn't be able to heal, yet they do.

This game is about versatility, don't stop at tanks, it makes no sense.

No, because if you look at 'tank' skills ie s&b they are neither AOE or high burst, thats why, and not because someone told me.

Heavy armour builds are not Tanks, they may be tanky, but there is a difference.
Same with healers, if they swap bars and kill you then they are not full healers but hybrids.

You are basically saying what I'm saying, if you want to do damage on a 'tank' or 'healer' have a back bar with damage skills combined with atleast one set.

A trails healer build or trials tank build will kill nobody or any creature very fast.

this is going in circles, you are arguing against me with exactly what I already said

Yeah, right, queue for group content instead of questing and miss out on a large number of skill points that you need more than any DD, because you HAVE to be specced for 2 roles unlike a DD. And who needs to do all content in the game with their favorite char anyways, right?

There is no way around giving tanks more damage in PvE if you want to make tanks more fun to play anywhere outside of vet trials. Getting it from 2k dps to 10k will make a world of difference for questing while still not making anything about them OP since they would still be literally bottom of the barrel in regards to dps.

In PvP nobody uses 1hs skills right now to do damage, this would just bring PvE tanks up to the level of current PvP tanks. Making more content accessible to more people is a positive not a negative in my eyes.

xI_The_Owl_Ix

Can we please start differentiating between Tanks and Dragonknights?
Just because they are the meta doesnt mean the tanking playstyle has to be adjusted on their behalf.

Lets look at the Dragonknight skills that "help (actually define)" tanking:

Active Skills:

-Unrelenting Grip: Magicka based chain that gives magicka back if it fails, soft aggros, deals fire damage (has a chance to set target on fire) and gives you major expedition

-Hardened Armor: Magicka based Major Resolve and Major Ward, gives a shield equal to 17% of your health for ~3sec, returns magic damage to melee attackers

-Choking Talons: Magicka based AoE root/immobalisation, deals magic damage, AoE minor maim for 7secs, synergy that deals more magic damage

-Green Dragon Blood: Magicka based instant heal (37% of your missing health), gives major fortitude, major endurance and minor vitality

-Deep Breath: Magicka based AoE interrupt, that deals magic damage and heals you for 115% of it, deals extra damage after ~3 secs

-Magma Shell (Ulti): Limits incoming damage to 3% of your max health while dealing flame damage every sec for 11secs, allies around you gain a damage shield for 116% of their health for 9secs

-Igneous Weapons: Support: Magicka based wep/spell damage buff, that gives major sorcery and major brutality to allies around you for 30 secs

-Igneous Shield: Magicka based shield, that gives your allies a damage shield and yourself 200% more of the shield, you also gain major mending for 3 secs

Passives:

-Warmth: Damaging enemies with Ardent Flame abilities (Chains) also reduces their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds.

-Combustion: When you apply Burning (Chains) to an enemy, you restore 500 Magicka.

-Iron Skin: Block an additional 10% damage

-Burning Heart: Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic ability is active. (Hardened Armor, Talons, Dragon Blood, Deep Breath)

-Elder Dragon: Increases Health Recovery by 5% for each Draconic Power ability slotted. (Hardened Armor, Talons, Dragon Blood, Deep Breath)

-Scaled Armor: Increases Spell Resistance by 3300

-Battle Roar: When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore 46 Health, 46 Magicka, and 46 Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.

-Mountain's Blessing: When you cast an Earthen Heart ability (Igneous Weapons/Shield), you and your group members within 30 meters gain Minor Brutality for 20 seconds, increasing your Weapon Damage 5%+ If you are in combat, you also gain 3 Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

-Helping Hands: When you cast an Earthen Heart Ability (Igneous Weapons/Shield), you restore 990 Stamina

Since I main a Nightblade Tank, lets compare it to it:

Active Skills:

-Mirage: Magicka based major evasion, minor resolve and minor ward

-Bolstering Darkness (Ulti): 5m radius of major protection to you and your allies, allies can also activate a synergy to heal themselves over and gain 70% moving speed, enemies in the radius get slowed down for 70%

-Dark Cloak: Magicka based heal over time that heals you for 32% of your max health over ~4 seconds, also applies minor protection for ~3 secs

-Refreshing Path: Magicka based heal/damage over time, you also gain major expedition while standing in it

-Manifestation of Terror: Magicka based AoE CC that spreads the ads around sending them running in "fear"for 4secs, takes 2 seconds to arm, leaves 2 runes behind (each rune fears up to 6 ads), reduces movement speed for 50% when the effect ends
Note: This Skill is not viable at all, it spreads the mob around instead of rooting them also making them CC immune.

-Dark Shade: Magicka based AoE/single target minor maim that summons a shade that applies minor main to a single target and "occasionally" an AoE minor main, deals also magic damag

-Leeching Strikes: Stamina based stamina managament, that gives you 100 stamina and 1,5k health every light attack for 20 secs, when the effect ends you get 4k stamina back.
Note: This Skill is also not really viable since it costs around 900 Stamina and forces the tank to light attack to gain Stamina back, also the 20 sec duration is too long and 4k Stam return is barely anything.

Passives:

-Refreshing Shadows: Increases Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 15%.

-Shadow Barrier: Casting a Shadow ability (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade) grants you Major Resolve and Major Ward for 6 seconds, increasing Physical and Spell Resistance by 5280. This duration is increased by 25% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. (Thats 16 seconds with 7 heavy armor)

-Dark Vigor: Increases your Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted. (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade)

-Dark Veil: Increases duration of Shadow abilities by 15%. (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade)

-Catalyst: After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.

-Magicka Flood: Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted. (Leeching Strikes)

-Transfer: Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.(Leeching Strikes)

You can cearly see that the Skills from the DKs are bloated with needed Buffs/Debuffs/Damage doing several things with just one skill, while also having the best resource management through its passives. (i.e. Block reduction, Stamina and Magicka return)
Other classes dont even have a decent AoE root (not CC) and while still having struggles with resources.

First balance every other class before you want to change the "tanking playstyle", because right now, even after the Summerset patch which helped a lot, no trial guild wants a Nightblade Tank to tank their trials. Its always Dragonknights, which is understandable if you just look at their skills.

Also I would like to add: The Silver Leash skill is borderline useless. The hit boxes in this game are way too big and I dont want to "chain" the same ad 3 times and waste 9k Stamina.

Balance the classes before you change anything about tanking. DK Tanks have been meta since the beggining of the game, if you look at this thread you can see it became a synonym for tanking itself. Change that first !!

SquareSausage

ZeroXFF wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

Noldornir wrote: »

How did the tank learnt to play his role at all if he's not "needed" until vets?

In this game tanking is very different as well so being a pro tank elsewhere gives little help and the difference between 2 tanks is often how they know the stage/boss.

Many dungeon bosses has short-channeled attacks which ignores taunts and u can interrupt it but have less than a sec.

If you only played as DPS you can't probably tell when the boss is about to do it hence you can't bash in time hence most DDs are oneshotted.

In BH there's this boss "First Mate Wavecutter" which is very weak but has this one mechanic

Shadow Volley that deals severe magic damage to all players

This actually can oneshot (1 person always tends to die in pugs) but can also be bashed/interrupted even if it's hard.

How do you learn to face bosses/mobs?

I agree, being a good tank is knowing when to follow mechanics, when things are about to happen, often the tank will be raid leader.

The levelling as a DPS is for people who want to level fast and outside of group content.

For new tanks i would suggest queing as a tank in your tank gear and playing the content out as a tank. You can queue as a tank for random dungeons in no time and that gives you good experience.
But when you are grinding you put on some dps set with training trait and use dps skills in overland with an exp scroll/pot to get up faster.
i do this when levelling a healer or tank, its fast effective and you learn as you go.

I_B_Squishy wrote: »

Why not?

Because someone told you so and you're locked into it.

Heavy armor builds aren't supposed to be able to kill in PVP, yet they are already. Healers shouldn't be able to swap bars and kill people, yet they do. Nightblades, dragon knights, and even sorcs shouldn't be able to heal, yet they do.

This game is about versatility, don't stop at tanks, it makes no sense.

No, because if you look at 'tank' skills ie s&b they are neither AOE or high burst, thats why, and not because someone told me.

Heavy armour builds are not Tanks, they may be tanky, but there is a difference.
Same with healers, if they swap bars and kill you then they are not full healers but hybrids.

You are basically saying what I'm saying, if you want to do damage on a 'tank' or 'healer' have a back bar with damage skills combined with atleast one set.

A trails healer build or trials tank build will kill nobody or any creature very fast.

this is going in circles, you are arguing against me with exactly what I already said

Yeah, right, queue for group content instead of questing and miss out on a large number of skill points that you need more than any DD, because you HAVE to be specced for 2 roles unlike a DD. And who needs to do all content in the game with their favorite char anyways, right?

There is no way around giving tanks more damage in PvE if you want to make tanks more fun to play anywhere outside of vet trials. Getting it from 2k dps to 10k will make a world of difference for questing while still not making anything about them OP since they would still be literally bottom of the barrel in regards to dps.

In PvP nobody uses 1hs skills right now to do damage, this would just bring PvE tanks up to the level of current PvP tanks. Making more content accessible to more people is a positive not a negative in my eyes.

Questing is a terrible way to farm skill points, 1 skill point per dungeon, complete all public dungeons farm a some skyshards, once you have them they don't disapear, just a little work.

Getting 10k dps on tank is easy if thats what you want, slot caltrops, bow on back bar with volley, poison injection, no problem, its a matter of set up rather than reworking s&b skills. There you go instant 'fun'. the options are all ready there if thats what you want from your character.

the idea of boosting puncture or low slash to give tanks more damage is silly and would wreck pvp, both are instant single target spammables, and with the passives from s&b would make that skill line OP.

I_B_Squishy

SquareSausage wrote: »

[
ZoS have specifically said numerous times that they want PvP and PvE skills and sets to play the same so coding differently is probably not an option.

Yet a lot of things are already coded differently in PVE and PVP.........

SquareSausage wrote: »

I_B_Squishy wrote: »

Why not?

Because someone told you so and you're locked into it.

Heavy armor builds aren't supposed to be able to kill in PVP, yet they are already. Healers shouldn't be able to swap bars and kill people, yet they do. Nightblades, dragon knights, and even sorcs shouldn't be able to heal, yet they do.

This game is about versatility, don't stop at tanks, it makes no sense.

No, because if you look at 'tank' skills ie s&b they are neither AOE or high burst, thats why, and not because someone told me.

In other words, *ZOS* told you tank skills were supposed to be, you're locked into it and refuse to believe it can be changed........no reason for this thread then?

My suggestion is extra damage for taunts, a new taunt for ice staff tanks (impulse) and AOE taunts. I want tanks to be able to do VMA like everyone else

Tempouille

The game is currently too laggy / buggy / visualy messy to remove the possibility to permablock. Most of the time it's unsafe to drop block because you cannot keep track of all the mess. What you can do however is to dynamically drop block when you know you have a few safe seconds. It is already part of warden tanking as you dont have burst stamina regen. Promoting this way of playing could be reasonable.

SquareSausage

Oh bro, making a taunt do more damage will not boost your dps by a lot and will not allow you to complete VMA on a fully specced tank. You need to adjust sets and skills accordingly.
I guess you will say but healers can do it, well not if they are fully specced into healing and have no damage skills apart from wall of elements on their bar, they need to regear to do so, as with any character, even DPS chars as they add more self healing into the mix.

Gonna bow out of this debate as its pretty ludicrous where its going.

ZeroXFF

SquareSausage wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

Noldornir wrote: »

How did the tank learnt to play his role at all if he's not "needed" until vets?

In this game tanking is very different as well so being a pro tank elsewhere gives little help and the difference between 2 tanks is often how they know the stage/boss.

Many dungeon bosses has short-channeled attacks which ignores taunts and u can interrupt it but have less than a sec.

If you only played as DPS you can't probably tell when the boss is about to do it hence you can't bash in time hence most DDs are oneshotted.

In BH there's this boss "First Mate Wavecutter" which is very weak but has this one mechanic

Shadow Volley that deals severe magic damage to all players

This actually can oneshot (1 person always tends to die in pugs) but can also be bashed/interrupted even if it's hard.

How do you learn to face bosses/mobs?

I agree, being a good tank is knowing when to follow mechanics, when things are about to happen, often the tank will be raid leader.

The levelling as a DPS is for people who want to level fast and outside of group content.

For new tanks i would suggest queing as a tank in your tank gear and playing the content out as a tank. You can queue as a tank for random dungeons in no time and that gives you good experience.
But when you are grinding you put on some dps set with training trait and use dps skills in overland with an exp scroll/pot to get up faster.
i do this when levelling a healer or tank, its fast effective and you learn as you go.

I_B_Squishy wrote: »

Why not?

Because someone told you so and you're locked into it.

Heavy armor builds aren't supposed to be able to kill in PVP, yet they are already. Healers shouldn't be able to swap bars and kill people, yet they do. Nightblades, dragon knights, and even sorcs shouldn't be able to heal, yet they do.

This game is about versatility, don't stop at tanks, it makes no sense.

No, because if you look at 'tank' skills ie s&b they are neither AOE or high burst, thats why, and not because someone told me.

Heavy armour builds are not Tanks, they may be tanky, but there is a difference.
Same with healers, if they swap bars and kill you then they are not full healers but hybrids.

You are basically saying what I'm saying, if you want to do damage on a 'tank' or 'healer' have a back bar with damage skills combined with atleast one set.

A trails healer build or trials tank build will kill nobody or any creature very fast.

this is going in circles, you are arguing against me with exactly what I already said

Yeah, right, queue for group content instead of questing and miss out on a large number of skill points that you need more than any DD, because you HAVE to be specced for 2 roles unlike a DD. And who needs to do all content in the game with their favorite char anyways, right?

There is no way around giving tanks more damage in PvE if you want to make tanks more fun to play anywhere outside of vet trials. Getting it from 2k dps to 10k will make a world of difference for questing while still not making anything about them OP since they would still be literally bottom of the barrel in regards to dps.

In PvP nobody uses 1hs skills right now to do damage, this would just bring PvE tanks up to the level of current PvP tanks. Making more content accessible to more people is a positive not a negative in my eyes.

Questing is a terrible way to farm skill points, 1 skill point per dungeon, complete all public dungeons farm a some skyshards, once you have them they don't disapear, just a little work.

Getting 10k dps on tank is easy if thats what you want, slot caltrops, bow on back bar with volley, poison injection, no problem, its a matter of set up rather than reworking s&b skills. There you go instant 'fun'.

the idea of boosting puncture or low slash to give tanks more damage is silly and would wreck pvp, both are instant single target spammables, and with the passives from s&b would make that skill line OP.

You will get the dungeon skill points when you start doing pledges anyways.

Public dungeons are effectively solo content, which is exactly the problem with tanks.

Farming skyshards involves killing mobs, sometimes very many (delves) which, as we already established, is a pain in the ...

I don't care about how "effective" certain forms of skill point farming are, because in the end I want to have them all. For a DD that's not a problem, so why do you want to exclude a role that needs them more from getting half of them?

And no, 10k DPS is not easy for a tank. On my templar I have to stack magicka and wear War Maiden + Innate Axiom to get there without entirely giving up my ability to tank. On a DK I don't think it's possible at all. I switch to medium armor and dw+bow to quest, so I give up on tanking entirely to do good enough damage because without that I always end up under 5k.

So essentially I have to be not a tank to do anything but group content. That's of so much help to new players who want to learn tanking and experience the game as it was meant the be played...

BejaProphet

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

Can we please start differentiating between Tanks and Dragonknights?
Just because they are the meta doesnt mean the tanking playstyle has to be adjusted on their behalf.

Lets look at the Dragonknight skills that "help (actually define)" tanking:

Active Skills:

-Unrelenting Grip: Magicka based chain that gives magicka back if it fails, soft aggros, deals fire damage (has a chance to set target on fire) and gives you major expedition

-Hardened Armor: Magicka based Major Resolve and Major Ward, gives a shield equal to 17% of your health for ~3sec, returns magic damage to melee attackers

-Choking Talons: Magicka based AoE root/immobalisation, deals magic damage, AoE minor maim for 7secs, synergy that deals more magic damage

-Green Dragon Blood: Magicka based instant heal (37% of your missing health), gives major fortitude, major endurance and minor vitality

-Deep Breath: Magicka based AoE interrupt, that deals magic damage and heals you for 115% of it, deals extra damage after ~3 secs

-Magma Shell (Ulti): Limits incoming damage to 3% of your max health while dealing flame damage every sec for 11secs, allies around you gain a damage shield for 116% of their health for 9secs

-Igneous Weapons: Support: Magicka based wep/spell damage buff, that gives major sorcery and major brutality to allies around you for 30 secs

-Igneous Shield: Magicka based shield, that gives your allies a damage shield and yourself 200% more of the shield, you also gain major mending for 3 secs

Passives:

-Warmth: Damaging enemies with Ardent Flame abilities (Chains) also reduces their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds.

-Combustion: When you apply Burning (Chains) to an enemy, you restore 500 Magicka.

-Iron Skin: Block an additional 10% damage

-Burning Heart: Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic ability is active. (Hardened Armor, Talons, Dragon Blood, Deep Breath)

-Elder Dragon: Increases Health Recovery by 5% for each Draconic Power ability slotted. (Hardened Armor, Talons, Dragon Blood, Deep Breath)

-Scaled Armor: Increases Spell Resistance by 3300

-Battle Roar: When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore 46 Health, 46 Magicka, and 46 Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.

-Mountain's Blessing: When you cast an Earthen Heart ability (Igneous Weapons/Shield), you and your group members within 30 meters gain Minor Brutality for 20 seconds, increasing your Weapon Damage 5%+ If you are in combat, you also gain 3 Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

-Helping Hands: When you cast an Earthen Heart Ability (Igneous Weapons/Shield), you restore 990 Stamina

Since I main a Nightblade Tank, lets compare it to it:

Active Skills:

-Mirage: Magicka based major evasion, minor resolve and minor ward

-Bolstering Darkness (Ulti): 5m radius of major protection to you and your allies, allies can also activate a synergy to heal themselves over and gain 70% moving speed, enemies in the radius get slowed down for 70%

-Dark Cloak: Magicka based heal over time that heals you for 32% of your max health over ~4 seconds, also applies minor protection for ~3 secs

-Refreshing Path: Magicka based heal/damage over time, you also gain major expedition while standing in it

-Manifestation of Terror: Magicka based AoE CC that spreads the ads around sending them running in "fear"for 4secs, takes 2 seconds to arm, leaves 2 runes behind (each rune fears up to 6 ads), reduces movement speed for 50% when the effect ends
Note: This Skill is not viable at all, it spreads the mob around instead of rooting them also making them CC immune.

-Dark Shade: Magicka based AoE/single target minor maim that summons a shade that applies minor main to a single target and "occasionally" an AoE minor main, deals also magic damag

-Leeching Strikes: Stamina based stamina managament, that gives you 100 stamina and 1,5k health every light attack for 20 secs, when the effect ends you get 4k stamina back.
Note: This Skill is also not really viable since it costs around 900 Stamina and forces the tank to light attack to gain Stamina back, also the 20 sec duration is too long and 4k Stam return is barely anything.

Passives:

-Refreshing Shadows: Increases Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 15%.

-Shadow Barrier: Casting a Shadow ability (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade) grants you Major Resolve and Major Ward for 6 seconds, increasing Physical and Spell Resistance by 5280. This duration is increased by 25% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. (Thats 16 seconds with 7 heavy armor)

-Dark Vigor: Increases your Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted. (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade)

-Dark Veil: Increases duration of Shadow abilities by 15%. (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade)

-Catalyst: After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.

-Magicka Flood: Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted. (Leeching Strikes)

-Transfer: Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.(Leeching Strikes)

You can cearly see that the Skills from the DKs are bloated with needed Buffs/Debuffs/Damage doing several things with just one skill, while also having the best resource management through its passives. (i.e. Block reduction, Stamina and Magicka return)
Other classes dont even have a decent AoE root (not CC) and while still having struggles with resources.

First balance every other class before you want to change the "tanking playstyle", because right now, even after the Summerset patch which helped a lot, no trial guild wants a Nightblade Tank to tank their trials. Its always Dragonknights, which is understandable if you just look at their skills.

Also I would like to add: The Silver Leash skill is borderline useless. The hit boxes in this game are way too big and I dont want to "chain" the same ad 3 times and waste 9k Stamina.

Balance the classes before you change anything about tanking. DK Tanks have been meta since the beggining of the game, if you look at this thread you can see it became a synonym for tanking itself. Change that first !!

Let me first say that I am for narrowing the gap between classes in tanking ability. I was very happy for my non DK tank associates when they made the summerset changes. So don't hear this as me being against that.

But one of the glorious things about this game is the endless character choices. We can customize what we are to no end. But every choice comes with an opportunity cost, and it should come with an opportunity cost. When you choose which class to tank on, you aren't choosing weaker. You are choosing to be strong at different things. You are choosing a toolkit.

When you choose your tool kit. You chose different things than I did when I chose a DK. And you got some awesome stuff when you did. Nightblades have awesome PvP evasion skills, I would love some of those sorc abilities on my tank. Wardens are nuts. Liofa has made a warden build that is fantastically tanky and he can drop major game changing heals on his team!! Also in the other classes you didn't just choose strengths, you chose incredible flexibility as well.

I chose something as well. I chose to give up all of that as an opportunity cost so that I could have one thing only. The pinnacle tanking tool kit. I said I don't care how many other things I suck at, how many other things I can't do, my purpose was to focus in on one task only. Give me the very best tools for tanking. And that is an ok choice too. It is not wrong for that to be a choice in the game. It can only be said to be "better" when you reduce the classes to talking about tanking only. I gave up your flexibility and opportunity to bring out of the box things to the table, and chose pure tanking. I can't heal my group like Liofa's warden. But guess what? I got some pure tanking things in exchange. Wardens are beginning to be considered on par with DK's by many. Heck, other than engulfing flames many are starting to say Wardens are the superior choice. But its not because they are equal at the most central aspects of tanking. It is because they are solid in the central aspects of tanking and bring nice non-tanking extras with them to the task. I chose DK because I willing would trade the extra's for the pure tanking.

Here is the point of all this. While I am for narrowing the gap, it would be horrifically unfair to make the other classes true equals to the DK when it comes to pure tanking. We have traded many many things for that premier tanking tool kit. If you were to make the other classes true equals then you absolutely crush us. We gave up everything to be a little better at that. So yes, narrow the gap and give other classes some of the non negotiable tools like they did with silver leash, but they absolutely should not make them completely equal to the DK.

Yakidafi

If I have to find pain points. I see tanks as support role. Not sure these are pain or current QoL points. Pve perspective.

1. Warden and dragonknight give best buffs by far depending on group.
2. Also easy to pick which sets to use, since there are only 4 sets or so, to consider worth getting.

xI_The_Owl_Ix

BejaProphet wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

Can we please start differentiating between Tanks and Dragonknights?
Just because they are the meta doesnt mean the tanking playstyle has to be adjusted on their behalf.

Lets look at the Dragonknight skills that "help (actually define)" tanking:

Active Skills:

-Unrelenting Grip: Magicka based chain that gives magicka back if it fails, soft aggros, deals fire damage (has a chance to set target on fire) and gives you major expedition

-Hardened Armor: Magicka based Major Resolve and Major Ward, gives a shield equal to 17% of your health for ~3sec, returns magic damage to melee attackers

-Choking Talons: Magicka based AoE root/immobalisation, deals magic damage, AoE minor maim for 7secs, synergy that deals more magic damage

-Green Dragon Blood: Magicka based instant heal (37% of your missing health), gives major fortitude, major endurance and minor vitality

-Deep Breath: Magicka based AoE interrupt, that deals magic damage and heals you for 115% of it, deals extra damage after ~3 secs

-Magma Shell (Ulti): Limits incoming damage to 3% of your max health while dealing flame damage every sec for 11secs, allies around you gain a damage shield for 116% of their health for 9secs

-Igneous Weapons: Support: Magicka based wep/spell damage buff, that gives major sorcery and major brutality to allies around you for 30 secs

-Igneous Shield: Magicka based shield, that gives your allies a damage shield and yourself 200% more of the shield, you also gain major mending for 3 secs

Passives:

-Warmth: Damaging enemies with Ardent Flame abilities (Chains) also reduces their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds.

-Combustion: When you apply Burning (Chains) to an enemy, you restore 500 Magicka.

-Iron Skin: Block an additional 10% damage

-Burning Heart: Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic ability is active. (Hardened Armor, Talons, Dragon Blood, Deep Breath)

-Elder Dragon: Increases Health Recovery by 5% for each Draconic Power ability slotted. (Hardened Armor, Talons, Dragon Blood, Deep Breath)

-Scaled Armor: Increases Spell Resistance by 3300

-Battle Roar: When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore 46 Health, 46 Magicka, and 46 Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.

-Mountain's Blessing: When you cast an Earthen Heart ability (Igneous Weapons/Shield), you and your group members within 30 meters gain Minor Brutality for 20 seconds, increasing your Weapon Damage 5%+ If you are in combat, you also gain 3 Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

-Helping Hands: When you cast an Earthen Heart Ability (Igneous Weapons/Shield), you restore 990 Stamina

Since I main a Nightblade Tank, lets compare it to it:

Active Skills:

-Mirage: Magicka based major evasion, minor resolve and minor ward

-Bolstering Darkness (Ulti): 5m radius of major protection to you and your allies, allies can also activate a synergy to heal themselves over and gain 70% moving speed, enemies in the radius get slowed down for 70%

-Dark Cloak: Magicka based heal over time that heals you for 32% of your max health over ~4 seconds, also applies minor protection for ~3 secs

-Refreshing Path: Magicka based heal/damage over time, you also gain major expedition while standing in it

-Manifestation of Terror: Magicka based AoE CC that spreads the ads around sending them running in "fear"for 4secs, takes 2 seconds to arm, leaves 2 runes behind (each rune fears up to 6 ads), reduces movement speed for 50% when the effect ends
Note: This Skill is not viable at all, it spreads the mob around instead of rooting them also making them CC immune.

-Dark Shade: Magicka based AoE/single target minor maim that summons a shade that applies minor main to a single target and "occasionally" an AoE minor main, deals also magic damag

-Leeching Strikes: Stamina based stamina managament, that gives you 100 stamina and 1,5k health every light attack for 20 secs, when the effect ends you get 4k stamina back.
Note: This Skill is also not really viable since it costs around 900 Stamina and forces the tank to light attack to gain Stamina back, also the 20 sec duration is too long and 4k Stam return is barely anything.

Passives:

-Refreshing Shadows: Increases Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 15%.

-Shadow Barrier: Casting a Shadow ability (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade) grants you Major Resolve and Major Ward for 6 seconds, increasing Physical and Spell Resistance by 5280. This duration is increased by 25% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. (Thats 16 seconds with 7 heavy armor)

-Dark Vigor: Increases your Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted. (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade)

-Dark Veil: Increases duration of Shadow abilities by 15%. (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade)

-Catalyst: After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.

-Magicka Flood: Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted. (Leeching Strikes)

-Transfer: Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.(Leeching Strikes)

You can cearly see that the Skills from the DKs are bloated with needed Buffs/Debuffs/Damage doing several things with just one skill, while also having the best resource management through its passives. (i.e. Block reduction, Stamina and Magicka return)
Other classes dont even have a decent AoE root (not CC) and while still having struggles with resources.

First balance every other class before you want to change the "tanking playstyle", because right now, even after the Summerset patch which helped a lot, no trial guild wants a Nightblade Tank to tank their trials. Its always Dragonknights, which is understandable if you just look at their skills.

Also I would like to add: The Silver Leash skill is borderline useless. The hit boxes in this game are way too big and I dont want to "chain" the same ad 3 times and waste 9k Stamina.

Balance the classes before you change anything about tanking. DK Tanks have been meta since the beggining of the game, if you look at this thread you can see it became a synonym for tanking itself. Change that first !!

Let me first say that I am for narrowing the gap between classes in tanking ability. I was very happy for my non DK tank associates when they made the summerset changes. So don't hear this as me being against that.

But one of the glorious things about this game is the endless character choices. We can customize what we are to no end. But every choice comes with an opportunity cost, and it should come with an opportunity cost. When you choose which class to tank on, you aren't choosing weaker. You are choosing to be strong at different things. You are choosing a toolkit.

When you choose your tool kit. You chose different things than I did when I chose a DK. And you got some awesome stuff when you did. Nightblades have awesome PvP evasion skills, I would love some of those sorc abilities on my tank. Wardens are nuts. Liofa has made a warden build that is fantastically tanky and he can drop major game changing heals on his team!! Also in the other classes you didn't just choose strengths, you chose incredible flexibility as well.

I chose something as well. I chose to give up all of that as an opportunity cost so that I could have one thing only. The pinnacle tanking tool kit. I said I don't care how many other things I suck at, how many other things I can't do, my purpose was to focus in on one task only. Give me the very best tools for tanking. And that is an ok choice too. It is not wrong for that to be a choice in the game. It can only be said to be "better" when you reduce the classes to talking about tanking only. I gave up your flexibility and opportunity to bring out of the box things to the table, and chose pure tanking. I can't heal my group like Liofa's warden. But guess what? I got some pure tanking things in exchange. Wardens are beginning to be considered on par with DK's by many. Heck, other than engulfing flames many are starting to say Wardens are the superior choice. But its not because they are equal at the most central aspects of tanking. It is because they are solid in the central aspects of tanking and bring nice non-tanking extras with them to the task. I chose DK because I willing would trade the extra's for the pure tanking.

Here is the point of all this. While I am for narrowing the gap, it would be horrifically unfair to make the other classes true equals to the DK when it comes to pure tanking. We have traded many many things for that premier tanking tool kit. If you were to make the other classes true equals then you absolutely crush us. We gave up everything to be a little better at that. So yes, narrow the gap and give other classes some of the non negotiable tools like they did with silver leash, but they absolutely should not make them completely equal to the DK.

That was never my point, I dont want to be DK 2.0. I want to be a Nightblade Tank. But there are skills that are needed in dungeons or trials. I.e. a talon like skill. I dont mind if they change "Manifestation of Terror" to an AoE root that doesnt count as CC. Or lower the cost of Silver Leash. But right now tanking is Dragonknight tanking. I mean just look at this thread about tanking and try to spot the few non DK tanks. Its an issue.
Tanking has no class diversity if you want to do end game score runs, you will have to main a DK tank otherwise you wont be tanking at all.
Also other classes have major sustain issues while DKs get 990 Stam back while giving allies a shield, minor brutality, get major mending and a shield that is 200% stronger. Just look how bloated 1 skill is, it gives at least 5 effects. Meanwhile Nightblades dont even have a magic shield and I dont mind it. I have major evasion and thats good, I want to be different than DKs. But we need chains, roots, better sustain, etc.
And then theres this thread, people complaining about how easy it is to tank and that they never run out of sustain and can perma block. Which may be true to DKs but its not to every other class.

There needs to be changes done to classes before they change tanking all together. Im not saying nerfing DKs is the solution but buffing every other class tanks is. Because right now theres only one Tank and its Dragonknight.


Edit: I would also like to add that I play since console launch and back then Nightblade tanks were different. We even lost the "SapTank", a different and fun/more engaging tanking playstyle.

BejaProphet

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

Can we please start differentiating between Tanks and Dragonknights?
Just because they are the meta doesnt mean the tanking playstyle has to be adjusted on their behalf.

Lets look at the Dragonknight skills that "help (actually define)" tanking:

Active Skills:

-Unrelenting Grip: Magicka based chain that gives magicka back if it fails, soft aggros, deals fire damage (has a chance to set target on fire) and gives you major expedition

-Hardened Armor: Magicka based Major Resolve and Major Ward, gives a shield equal to 17% of your health for ~3sec, returns magic damage to melee attackers

-Choking Talons: Magicka based AoE root/immobalisation, deals magic damage, AoE minor maim for 7secs, synergy that deals more magic damage

-Green Dragon Blood: Magicka based instant heal (37% of your missing health), gives major fortitude, major endurance and minor vitality

-Deep Breath: Magicka based AoE interrupt, that deals magic damage and heals you for 115% of it, deals extra damage after ~3 secs

-Magma Shell (Ulti): Limits incoming damage to 3% of your max health while dealing flame damage every sec for 11secs, allies around you gain a damage shield for 116% of their health for 9secs

-Igneous Weapons: Support: Magicka based wep/spell damage buff, that gives major sorcery and major brutality to allies around you for 30 secs

-Igneous Shield: Magicka based shield, that gives your allies a damage shield and yourself 200% more of the shield, you also gain major mending for 3 secs

Passives:

-Warmth: Damaging enemies with Ardent Flame abilities (Chains) also reduces their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds.

-Combustion: When you apply Burning (Chains) to an enemy, you restore 500 Magicka.

-Iron Skin: Block an additional 10% damage

-Burning Heart: Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic ability is active. (Hardened Armor, Talons, Dragon Blood, Deep Breath)

-Elder Dragon: Increases Health Recovery by 5% for each Draconic Power ability slotted. (Hardened Armor, Talons, Dragon Blood, Deep Breath)

-Scaled Armor: Increases Spell Resistance by 3300

-Battle Roar: When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore 46 Health, 46 Magicka, and 46 Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.

-Mountain's Blessing: When you cast an Earthen Heart ability (Igneous Weapons/Shield), you and your group members within 30 meters gain Minor Brutality for 20 seconds, increasing your Weapon Damage 5%+ If you are in combat, you also gain 3 Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

-Helping Hands: When you cast an Earthen Heart Ability (Igneous Weapons/Shield), you restore 990 Stamina

Since I main a Nightblade Tank, lets compare it to it:

Active Skills:

-Mirage: Magicka based major evasion, minor resolve and minor ward

-Bolstering Darkness (Ulti): 5m radius of major protection to you and your allies, allies can also activate a synergy to heal themselves over and gain 70% moving speed, enemies in the radius get slowed down for 70%

-Dark Cloak: Magicka based heal over time that heals you for 32% of your max health over ~4 seconds, also applies minor protection for ~3 secs

-Refreshing Path: Magicka based heal/damage over time, you also gain major expedition while standing in it

-Manifestation of Terror: Magicka based AoE CC that spreads the ads around sending them running in "fear"for 4secs, takes 2 seconds to arm, leaves 2 runes behind (each rune fears up to 6 ads), reduces movement speed for 50% when the effect ends
Note: This Skill is not viable at all, it spreads the mob around instead of rooting them also making them CC immune.

-Dark Shade: Magicka based AoE/single target minor maim that summons a shade that applies minor main to a single target and "occasionally" an AoE minor main, deals also magic damag

-Leeching Strikes: Stamina based stamina managament, that gives you 100 stamina and 1,5k health every light attack for 20 secs, when the effect ends you get 4k stamina back.
Note: This Skill is also not really viable since it costs around 900 Stamina and forces the tank to light attack to gain Stamina back, also the 20 sec duration is too long and 4k Stam return is barely anything.

Passives:

-Refreshing Shadows: Increases Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 15%.

-Shadow Barrier: Casting a Shadow ability (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade) grants you Major Resolve and Major Ward for 6 seconds, increasing Physical and Spell Resistance by 5280. This duration is increased by 25% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. (Thats 16 seconds with 7 heavy armor)

-Dark Vigor: Increases your Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted. (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade)

-Dark Veil: Increases duration of Shadow abilities by 15%. (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade)

-Catalyst: After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.

-Magicka Flood: Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted. (Leeching Strikes)

-Transfer: Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.(Leeching Strikes)

You can cearly see that the Skills from the DKs are bloated with needed Buffs/Debuffs/Damage doing several things with just one skill, while also having the best resource management through its passives. (i.e. Block reduction, Stamina and Magicka return)
Other classes dont even have a decent AoE root (not CC) and while still having struggles with resources.

First balance every other class before you want to change the "tanking playstyle", because right now, even after the Summerset patch which helped a lot, no trial guild wants a Nightblade Tank to tank their trials. Its always Dragonknights, which is understandable if you just look at their skills.

Also I would like to add: The Silver Leash skill is borderline useless. The hit boxes in this game are way too big and I dont want to "chain" the same ad 3 times and waste 9k Stamina.

Balance the classes before you change anything about tanking. DK Tanks have been meta since the beggining of the game, if you look at this thread you can see it became a synonym for tanking itself. Change that first !!

Let me first say that I am for narrowing the gap between classes in tanking ability. I was very happy for my non DK tank associates when they made the summerset changes. So don't hear this as me being against that.

But one of the glorious things about this game is the endless character choices. We can customize what we are to no end. But every choice comes with an opportunity cost, and it should come with an opportunity cost. When you choose which class to tank on, you aren't choosing weaker. You are choosing to be strong at different things. You are choosing a toolkit.

When you choose your tool kit. You chose different things than I did when I chose a DK. And you got some awesome stuff when you did. Nightblades have awesome PvP evasion skills, I would love some of those sorc abilities on my tank. Wardens are nuts. Liofa has made a warden build that is fantastically tanky and he can drop major game changing heals on his team!! Also in the other classes you didn't just choose strengths, you chose incredible flexibility as well.

I chose something as well. I chose to give up all of that as an opportunity cost so that I could have one thing only. The pinnacle tanking tool kit. I said I don't care how many other things I suck at, how many other things I can't do, my purpose was to focus in on one task only. Give me the very best tools for tanking. And that is an ok choice too. It is not wrong for that to be a choice in the game. It can only be said to be "better" when you reduce the classes to talking about tanking only. I gave up your flexibility and opportunity to bring out of the box things to the table, and chose pure tanking. I can't heal my group like Liofa's warden. But guess what? I got some pure tanking things in exchange. Wardens are beginning to be considered on par with DK's by many. Heck, other than engulfing flames many are starting to say Wardens are the superior choice. But its not because they are equal at the most central aspects of tanking. It is because they are solid in the central aspects of tanking and bring nice non-tanking extras with them to the task. I chose DK because I willing would trade the extra's for the pure tanking.

Here is the point of all this. While I am for narrowing the gap, it would be horrifically unfair to make the other classes true equals to the DK when it comes to pure tanking. We have traded many many things for that premier tanking tool kit. If you were to make the other classes true equals then you absolutely crush us. We gave up everything to be a little better at that. So yes, narrow the gap and give other classes some of the non negotiable tools like they did with silver leash, but they absolutely should not make them completely equal to the DK.

That was never my point, I dont want to be DK 2.0. I want to be a Nightblade Tank. But there are skills that are needed in dungeons or trials. I.e. a talon like skill. I dont mind if they change "Manifestation of Terror" to an AoE root that doesnt count as CC. Or lower the cost of Silver Leash. But right now tanking is Dragonknight tanking. I mean just look at this thread about tanking and try to spot the few non DK tanks. Its an issue.
Tanking has no class diversity if you want to do end game score runs, you will have to main a DK tank otherwise you wont be tanking at all.
Also other classes have major sustain issues while DKs get 990 Stam back while giving allies a shield, minor brutality, get major mending and a shield that is 200% stronger. Just look how bloated 1 skill is, it gives at least 5 effects. Meanwhile Nightblades dont even have a magic shield and I dont mind it. I have major evasion and thats good, I want to be different than DKs. But we need chains, roots, better sustain, etc.
And then theres this thread, people complaining about how easy it is to tank and that they never run out of sustain and can perma block. Which may be true to DKs but its not to every other class.

There needs to be changes done to classes before they change tanking all together. Im not saying nerfing DKs is the solution but buffing every other class tanks is. Because right now theres only one Tank and its Dragonknight.

As said, I do think the gap should be narrowed. I especially agree with you to the extent that we are talking about making sure the other classes have the essential tools. I want the other classes to have leash, and roots. That is very important for tanking well in several contexts. I don't think shielding your allies is necessary, but its a pretty big boon for DK's.

I'd probably find my biggest disagreements with you on three points.

1. I don't think the sustain issue is a gap that is necessary to close because I don't think tanks should be perma blocking. But I've talked about that in this thread already so I'll leave it at that. Meditate has just about done all that needs to be done in closing the gap there.

2. I think letting the DK's tools give the little side benefits is a great way to let the DK do the "premier tanking kit" at the cost of other things while still giving the tools to other classes. For example, give the other classes a true AOE root. They then have the tool, but DK has the root/maim combo, and they've chosen that over other class perks. Follow this idea with the other abilities and I think we find the answer. You could give other classes a shield with the same strength for their allies as a DK, and DK would still be the focused tank choice because of the secondary procs you mentioned.

3. I do not think that DK=the only tank is ZOS' fault entirely. The root cause is players demanding min-maxing from other players to allow them to play with them. That is what chased the other classes out of the discussion. And even then, wardens are rapidly being recognized as pinnacle tanks along with DK.

xI_The_Owl_Ix

BejaProphet wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

Can we please start differentiating between Tanks and Dragonknights?
Just because they are the meta doesnt mean the tanking playstyle has to be adjusted on their behalf.

Lets look at the Dragonknight skills that "help (actually define)" tanking:

Active Skills:

-Unrelenting Grip: Magicka based chain that gives magicka back if it fails, soft aggros, deals fire damage (has a chance to set target on fire) and gives you major expedition

-Hardened Armor: Magicka based Major Resolve and Major Ward, gives a shield equal to 17% of your health for ~3sec, returns magic damage to melee attackers

-Choking Talons: Magicka based AoE root/immobalisation, deals magic damage, AoE minor maim for 7secs, synergy that deals more magic damage

-Green Dragon Blood: Magicka based instant heal (37% of your missing health), gives major fortitude, major endurance and minor vitality

-Deep Breath: Magicka based AoE interrupt, that deals magic damage and heals you for 115% of it, deals extra damage after ~3 secs

-Magma Shell (Ulti): Limits incoming damage to 3% of your max health while dealing flame damage every sec for 11secs, allies around you gain a damage shield for 116% of their health for 9secs

-Igneous Weapons: Support: Magicka based wep/spell damage buff, that gives major sorcery and major brutality to allies around you for 30 secs

-Igneous Shield: Magicka based shield, that gives your allies a damage shield and yourself 200% more of the shield, you also gain major mending for 3 secs

Passives:

-Warmth: Damaging enemies with Ardent Flame abilities (Chains) also reduces their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds.

-Combustion: When you apply Burning (Chains) to an enemy, you restore 500 Magicka.

-Iron Skin: Block an additional 10% damage

-Burning Heart: Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic ability is active. (Hardened Armor, Talons, Dragon Blood, Deep Breath)

-Elder Dragon: Increases Health Recovery by 5% for each Draconic Power ability slotted. (Hardened Armor, Talons, Dragon Blood, Deep Breath)

-Scaled Armor: Increases Spell Resistance by 3300

-Battle Roar: When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore 46 Health, 46 Magicka, and 46 Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.

-Mountain's Blessing: When you cast an Earthen Heart ability (Igneous Weapons/Shield), you and your group members within 30 meters gain Minor Brutality for 20 seconds, increasing your Weapon Damage 5%+ If you are in combat, you also gain 3 Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

-Helping Hands: When you cast an Earthen Heart Ability (Igneous Weapons/Shield), you restore 990 Stamina

Since I main a Nightblade Tank, lets compare it to it:

Active Skills:

-Mirage: Magicka based major evasion, minor resolve and minor ward

-Bolstering Darkness (Ulti): 5m radius of major protection to you and your allies, allies can also activate a synergy to heal themselves over and gain 70% moving speed, enemies in the radius get slowed down for 70%

-Dark Cloak: Magicka based heal over time that heals you for 32% of your max health over ~4 seconds, also applies minor protection for ~3 secs

-Refreshing Path: Magicka based heal/damage over time, you also gain major expedition while standing in it

-Manifestation of Terror: Magicka based AoE CC that spreads the ads around sending them running in "fear"for 4secs, takes 2 seconds to arm, leaves 2 runes behind (each rune fears up to 6 ads), reduces movement speed for 50% when the effect ends
Note: This Skill is not viable at all, it spreads the mob around instead of rooting them also making them CC immune.

-Dark Shade: Magicka based AoE/single target minor maim that summons a shade that applies minor main to a single target and "occasionally" an AoE minor main, deals also magic damag

-Leeching Strikes: Stamina based stamina managament, that gives you 100 stamina and 1,5k health every light attack for 20 secs, when the effect ends you get 4k stamina back.
Note: This Skill is also not really viable since it costs around 900 Stamina and forces the tank to light attack to gain Stamina back, also the 20 sec duration is too long and 4k Stam return is barely anything.

Passives:

-Refreshing Shadows: Increases Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 15%.

-Shadow Barrier: Casting a Shadow ability (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade) grants you Major Resolve and Major Ward for 6 seconds, increasing Physical and Spell Resistance by 5280. This duration is increased by 25% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. (Thats 16 seconds with 7 heavy armor)

-Dark Vigor: Increases your Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted. (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade)

-Dark Veil: Increases duration of Shadow abilities by 15%. (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade)

-Catalyst: After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.

-Magicka Flood: Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted. (Leeching Strikes)

-Transfer: Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.(Leeching Strikes)

You can cearly see that the Skills from the DKs are bloated with needed Buffs/Debuffs/Damage doing several things with just one skill, while also having the best resource management through its passives. (i.e. Block reduction, Stamina and Magicka return)
Other classes dont even have a decent AoE root (not CC) and while still having struggles with resources.

First balance every other class before you want to change the "tanking playstyle", because right now, even after the Summerset patch which helped a lot, no trial guild wants a Nightblade Tank to tank their trials. Its always Dragonknights, which is understandable if you just look at their skills.

Also I would like to add: The Silver Leash skill is borderline useless. The hit boxes in this game are way too big and I dont want to "chain" the same ad 3 times and waste 9k Stamina.

Balance the classes before you change anything about tanking. DK Tanks have been meta since the beggining of the game, if you look at this thread you can see it became a synonym for tanking itself. Change that first !!

Let me first say that I am for narrowing the gap between classes in tanking ability. I was very happy for my non DK tank associates when they made the summerset changes. So don't hear this as me being against that.

But one of the glorious things about this game is the endless character choices. We can customize what we are to no end. But every choice comes with an opportunity cost, and it should come with an opportunity cost. When you choose which class to tank on, you aren't choosing weaker. You are choosing to be strong at different things. You are choosing a toolkit.

When you choose your tool kit. You chose different things than I did when I chose a DK. And you got some awesome stuff when you did. Nightblades have awesome PvP evasion skills, I would love some of those sorc abilities on my tank. Wardens are nuts. Liofa has made a warden build that is fantastically tanky and he can drop major game changing heals on his team!! Also in the other classes you didn't just choose strengths, you chose incredible flexibility as well.

I chose something as well. I chose to give up all of that as an opportunity cost so that I could have one thing only. The pinnacle tanking tool kit. I said I don't care how many other things I suck at, how many other things I can't do, my purpose was to focus in on one task only. Give me the very best tools for tanking. And that is an ok choice too. It is not wrong for that to be a choice in the game. It can only be said to be "better" when you reduce the classes to talking about tanking only. I gave up your flexibility and opportunity to bring out of the box things to the table, and chose pure tanking. I can't heal my group like Liofa's warden. But guess what? I got some pure tanking things in exchange. Wardens are beginning to be considered on par with DK's by many. Heck, other than engulfing flames many are starting to say Wardens are the superior choice. But its not because they are equal at the most central aspects of tanking. It is because they are solid in the central aspects of tanking and bring nice non-tanking extras with them to the task. I chose DK because I willing would trade the extra's for the pure tanking.

Here is the point of all this. While I am for narrowing the gap, it would be horrifically unfair to make the other classes true equals to the DK when it comes to pure tanking. We have traded many many things for that premier tanking tool kit. If you were to make the other classes true equals then you absolutely crush us. We gave up everything to be a little better at that. So yes, narrow the gap and give other classes some of the non negotiable tools like they did with silver leash, but they absolutely should not make them completely equal to the DK.

That was never my point, I dont want to be DK 2.0. I want to be a Nightblade Tank. But there are skills that are needed in dungeons or trials. I.e. a talon like skill. I dont mind if they change "Manifestation of Terror" to an AoE root that doesnt count as CC. Or lower the cost of Silver Leash. But right now tanking is Dragonknight tanking. I mean just look at this thread about tanking and try to spot the few non DK tanks. Its an issue.
Tanking has no class diversity if you want to do end game score runs, you will have to main a DK tank otherwise you wont be tanking at all.
Also other classes have major sustain issues while DKs get 990 Stam back while giving allies a shield, minor brutality, get major mending and a shield that is 200% stronger. Just look how bloated 1 skill is, it gives at least 5 effects. Meanwhile Nightblades dont even have a magic shield and I dont mind it. I have major evasion and thats good, I want to be different than DKs. But we need chains, roots, better sustain, etc.
And then theres this thread, people complaining about how easy it is to tank and that they never run out of sustain and can perma block. Which may be true to DKs but its not to every other class.

There needs to be changes done to classes before they change tanking all together. Im not saying nerfing DKs is the solution but buffing every other class tanks is. Because right now theres only one Tank and its Dragonknight.

As said, I do think the gap should be narrowed. I especially agree with you to the extent that we are talking about making sure the other classes have the essential tools. I want the other classes to have leash, and roots. That is very important for tanking well in several contexts. I don't think shielding your allies is necessary, but its a pretty big boon for DK's.

I'd probably find my biggest disagreements with you on three points.

1. I don't think the sustain issue is a gap that is necessary to close because I don't think tanks should be perma blocking. But I've talked about that in this thread already so I'll leave it at that. Meditate has just about done all that needs to be done in closing the gap there.

2. I think letting the DK's tools give the little side benefits is a great way to let the DK do the "premier tanking kit" at the cost of other things while still giving the tools to other classes. For example, give the other classes a true AOE root. They then have the tool, but DK has the root/maim combo, and they've chosen that over other class perks. Follow this idea with the other abilities and I think we find the answer. You could give other classes a shield with the same strength for their allies as a DK, and DK would still be the focused tank choice because of the secondary procs you mentioned.

3. I do not think that DK=the only tank is ZOS' fault entirely. The root cause is players demanding min-maxing from other players to allow them to play with them. That is what chased the other classes out of the discussion. And even then, wardens are rapidly being recognized as pinnacle tanks along with DK.

Just a quick response to your points, since I have to Off-Tank vHR in a bit (with my DK, my NB wasnt welcome; ironically to this depate)


1. I get your point, weaving heavy attacks can be fun and engaging but then DKs need to get their sustain nerfed at least a bit. Because they outperform every other class with their sustain atm. And the sustain issue is a problem for every other class even with "Deep Thoughts" (which I use), because you cant use it at heavy-attack heavy fights. i.e. vAA tanking axes or vet Bloodroot hardmode tanking all 3 golems.
I think their superior sustain is also the issue why there are so many posts that say that block cost needs to be increased. Which would ruin every other class while DKs would still have their "10% block reduction" passive.

2. This is a huge red-flag imo. There shouldnt be a "premier tanking kit". I honestly fail to see what good class skills other tanks have that the DK tank hasnt. I guess there are a few, for example NBs major evasion but that is also based on RNG and not reliable like DKs shield.
I think this point of yours is rather moot.

3. I agree on that, there are a lot meta players who want the best of the best. ZOS cant manage that. What they can do is lowering the gap between the meta and non meta builds, which they kind of did with Summerset. But it still needs work in my opinion.

BejaProphet

@xI_The_Owl_Ix

1. Every content in the game can be completed with any class. If a player can not sustain through a fight. It is a shortcoming with the player or the build, not the class. Because other players CAN sustain through any content with those classes.

2. If you don't know what any other class has that a DK doesn't, it shows that you are limiting your thinking ONLY to top end tanking. The time for that kind of tunnel vision was when you chose your class, not to ask ZOS now to nerf others who chose the other tool kit. The entirety of my big long post previously would be my response to that. When you chose your tool kit, you chose to be strong at some things, and moderate at others. For them to suddenly give you complete equality with the tool kits of the DK, and let you STILL have all the tools of a night blade would be unfair. It would be as unfair as suddenly giving the DK all of your stuff, and you get nothing to compensate.

If you need help thinking of things that a night blade has, the ability to suddenly vanish from sight would be one of them. "But that doesn't help in tanking!" No, but its something we gave up for the sake of more tanking options.

How about major evasion combined with major expedition? Dk's would kill to be able to be more mobile. Its one of our biggest weak points. "But that's only marginally helpful in tanking." True, but its something we gave up for more tanking options.

How about the ability to put minor berserk on yourself? "But in trial tanking tanks don't do DPS!" That's true, but I bet a lot of dungeon tanks like to have high DPS. And its something we gave up to have more tanking options.

How about the most powerful crowd control ability in the game IMO? Aspect of Terror. "But that doesn't work on bosses." No it doesn't, but it wrecks in PVP and can save your life in other situations. Oh, and its also something we gave up for better tanking options.

How about boost to max health from having shadow abilities slotted?

How about gaining 20 ultimate when you drink a potion?

How about double the duration of stuns from sneak? "But that's not for raids" ESO is more than raids. And its something we traded to have better tanking.

You have things that we do not have. You chose those things. For you to get everything we chose, and KEEP those things, would be unfair. What you are specifically asking for is to have all that we have while keeping what you have. (perhaps with a small mixture of them simply taking away what we have a.k.a. nerf). You can't be asking for anything else. You said, "I don't want to be DK 2.0 I want to be night blade. But I want the other classes to have the tools." But when I agreed and said I also want you to have the tools, you made clear that wasn't enough. You didn't want the DK to be better at it at all. You said that a "premier tanking kit" simply should not exist. So you want all the Nightblade things, and you want to have paid no opportunity cost for it when it comes to tanking.

To the extent that I am understanding you correctly, your view point is wrong and frankly seems a bit selfish.

Making all classes viable in every role in all content on the bases of what the game demands to complete the content, I'm 100% on board.

Making all classes equally viable per the standards of elite snobs wanting you to min-max. No, I disagree. At that point you are asking to homogenize the classes and make choice meaningless.

xI_The_Owl_Ix

@BejaProphet

1. Well yes it can be, I tanked every vet DLC Dungeon on my NB Tank and have every dungeon skin. Even before the Summer Set changes. That doesnt mean its optimal. Why should other classes have a higher skill scaling than DK tanks, while still being not viable for end-game content? This may sound stupid but I off-tanked vHR on my DK tank while having a decent meal irl, I only had to block forever and use taunt once in a while. Meanwhile I have to use potions, heavy attacks, leeching strikes, synergies, etc on my NB tank. How is that fair?

2. Honestly "wat?" Are you comparing non tanking skills of a NB with a DK tanking build?
Im not asking to nerf DKs; like I already said Im asking for a buff to every other class tanking.
I also dont understand why you assume I want DKs toolkit? The only things I want for my NB tank are an AoE root, a better magicka based chain and better stamina sustain. Which are necessarily needed for end game tanking. I never said anything about wanting all the things DKs have. I honestly have no idea where that even comes from. I couldnt care less about the shields or the minor brutality allies get, etc.
What I care is viability of every other class. And I dont get how that makes me selfish? For wanting more options as an end-game tank, not being shoehorned into one class? Do you think MagPlars, MagDKs or MagSorcs are happy with the new MagNB meta? No. Nobody wants to be shoehorned into a class just to be able to do vMoL, vAS +2, vHoF or vCR. And thats where ZOS needs to step in and do something about it.
DKs give allies minor brutatlity when they use igneous shield? Cool! Lets give allies minor savagery when NBs use Mirage. (as an example)
Again diversity needs to be a thing. If you look at the NB passives, they are all "selfish". Not for group-play.

All these "OP" skills and passives you mention are irrelevant to tanking. I could do the same with MagDKs in PvP, how OP they are in duels with the talons, petrify and whips, etc. But again it doesnt matter. This is about tanking, not comparing specific PvP DPS build skills with PvE Tank build skills. Thats why Im not going to go further into detail on those points.

For you to get everything we chose, and KEEP those things, would be unfair. What you are specifically asking for is to have all that we have while keeping what you have.

Again I dont know where I apparently have said something like that, but I dont think that way. Not one bit. I said several times I am for class diversitiy. I dont want DKs to get unplayable/not viable. I simply want every other class to become viable.

You didn't want the DK to be better at it at all. You said that a "premier tanking kit" simply should not exist. So you want all the Nightblade things, and you want to have paid no opportunity cost for it when it comes to tanking.

Thats because I dont want any class to be the best. I want to see sorc healers, templar tanks, warden DPS in scoreboards. But we currently dont and its stupid.

Why do you want DKs to be best at tanking? MagDKs and StamDKs can hit +40k. DKs are one of the few classes with access to major mending as well, making healing viable to a degree. And are currently the only real option for end-game tanking.
Meanwhile NBs are only good for DPS and not even as stam DPS because they are "too squishy".
There shouldnt be a class thats best at something.

Isnt it selfish to want to be on top while other classes like NB Tanks and Templar Tanks have issues and barely manage harder trials and arent viable for end game content? How is that fair?
Like I said I just was in a trial where I was told to bring my DK tank instead my NB tank. It wasnt even a score run.
How is it selfish to want to play different class tanks in trials?

And then we have to listen to DK tanks complaining about how "easy" and "boring" everything is. Demanding increased block cost to tanking in general.
And I simply have to disgaree - if you increase the block cost the gap between DK tanks and non DK tanks will become wider, I dont want that.

What I want is to make other classes viable for end-game trials. I.e.: vMoL, vHoF, vAS +2, vCR +3 and then have a look at how we could improve the tanking experience for every class, not only DKs.

Xanxarib16_ESO

SquareSausage wrote: »

God, there are really some silly suggestions in here.

Demanding tanks have more DPS, well lets consider, a tank is a damage taker, not a damage dealer, youre chosen role is implicitly to soak up the damage and we do that with a combination of sets, skills and CP. This is a known, in all and every game there ever has been. Giving a fully specced tank high dps potential imbalances PvP into the bargain.

Here's an idea, if people want to faceroll dungeons with 4 dps, then play your dps char, if you dont have one, then level one. Its not tanks job to be banging out 'top deeps'. The tank comes into being in trials, vet dungeons and PvP.

The rule of thumb for levelling a tank if you want to do it fast is level as a dps and slot s&b skills on your bars as you level. This is the same for every character choice, healers and DPS.

Playing a Tank is a conscious choice. Having your cake and eating it is not an option.

maybe you should take a look at Tera Online, maybe try out endgame dungeons, and then come back to ESO, and look how stupid tanking is in this game, ESO are trying to push tanks away from Perma blocking and into something more interactive blocking, and you know what Tera online have that, and ohh yea Tanks can do a ton of damage in that game...

and you know what when Tera online got release they also had Perma blocking in the game and they fixed it by adding a new resource that was for Dodge and Block a resource you wouldn't regain when you hold block down and you had to do damage to gain the resource back...

the solution is easy but i dont think ESO want to add the simple solution to tanking and Dodging and break free. maybe it's close to impossible to add a new resource?

i have called for this solution for 3 years and still nothing

Enrif

For those advocating for a class revamp before a tank revamp, well i see your points.

The question would be, How?

While all classes have tanking/healing options in their class spells there are only 2 who have more dedicated ones.


DK/Warden (and Templar/Warden for healing)

One solution could be to revamp all classe to have one skill line dedicated to heal, one to tank and one to DPS for all Classes. But this would be a huge undertaking.

The other way around. Nerf the crap out of those Classes that have those more dedicated options. But this would upset a lot of people.

If i would have a say in it. I would got for another route. Remove tanking and healing dedication from class skills. Sure leave some things that help, but nothing that screams "you want to tank? Pick me or don't do it)

Instead put the tanking and healing Stuff into something else. Like the Mage/Fighter Guild where everyone has access to it.

Or with the next bit Chapter, add two new Guilds Protectors of Stendarr and Priests of Kynareth for example. One dedicated to tanking, one dedicated to healing.

xI_The_Owl_Ix

Enrif wrote: »

For those advocating for a class revamp before a tank revamp, well i see your points.

The question would be, How?

In my honest opinion, just giving them the needed tools like chains, roots, taunts, major ward/major resolve and better sustain could be a good start.
Then just look at what the classes need/should bring into group content. Buffs/Debuffs etc.

aeowulf

BejaProphet wrote: »

@xI_The_Owl_Ix

1. Every content in the game can be completed with any class. If a player can not sustain through a fight. It is a shortcoming with the player or the build, not the class. Because other players CAN sustain through any content with those classes.

2. If you don't know what any other class has that a DK doesn't, it shows that you are limiting your thinking ONLY to top end tanking. The time for that kind of tunnel vision was when you chose your class, not to ask ZOS now to nerf others who chose the other tool kit. The entirety of my big long post previously would be my response to that. When you chose your tool kit, you chose to be strong at some things, and moderate at others. For them to suddenly give you complete equality with the tool kits of the DK, and let you STILL have all the tools of a night blade would be unfair. It would be as unfair as suddenly giving the DK all of your stuff, and you get nothing to compensate.

1. Yes kinda but also no not really. At one extreme I really don't know if 12 DK's could complete a vet trial. Also if you have 11 awesome meta capped experienced players in your trial, then carrying a 12th person is not much of a problem no matter what class they are in their role. Sustain is the root of casting abilities, this has to be roughly the same across all classes in each role. In the role of tank, at one extreme we have DK. Helping hands is a really nice bonus, but the main resource return is from earthen heart. A DK running heroic slash is pushing out roughly twice the return of pretty much any other skill whilst blocking. Templars have no stamina return during some fights. This is not balanced. In the middle we have NB, and their sustain toolkit is targetted to DPS only, and doesn't work well for tanking, & Sorcs need to drop block, but the return they get is massive.

This needs balancing. You can't start balancing skills until fundamental resources are balanced, as without resources you are not casting your newly balanced skills.

2. Specifically this bit: "When you chose your tool kit, you chose to be strong at some things, and moderate at others. For them to suddenly give you complete equality with the tool kits of the DK, and let you STILL have all the tools of a night blade would be unfair." My toolkit was sap tanking, I chose that. It was removed with Morrowind with no compensation or equality. The entire role was removed from NB & Templars suffered a similar fate with Repentence. Sap tanking was fun, lots of fun. NB were not stronger than DK but they could stand their own. They were roughly balanced, in that role. Non DK/warden tanks disappeared over a year ago. This is a massive problem, it should of been addressed at the time.

My main was NB tank. I had to swap him to DPS and now if I want to tank a trial for my guild I have to bring a DK. The gap is way too big between DK/Warden & the other classes. Summerset tried to help, but it hasn't really. The changes NB got helped PVP more than PVE. They never had a healing problem, they have a resource problem. But (in PVE) they got improved heals, and a 50% nerfed ultimate.

Why is DK tanking so easy? Simply put, permablock. Then there are all the extras they bring that other classes don't. Engulfing flames, significant group shields, magicka chains. They are very well rounded thought out. Wardens are pretty good too like that. The other classes need the same, their toolkit was never built with tanking in mind. Just like the DK needs their healing toolkit looking at.

Noldornir

From my point of view those asking for a buff for other classes/nerfs to dks (because, let's say, DK is the best tank class) are right in the intentions but are understimating what a change in tanking playstyle would be.

First, let's be honest while it is true that DK makes better tanks it is also true that EVERY class shines in a role in a way that other classes can't.

The original intentions of the design were probably this:

Dragonknight= Best tank
Templar= Best Healer
Sorceror= Best Mag DD
Nightblade= Best Stam DD

Warden came in later and he probably was intended to be the real "jack-of-all-trades" (some may adds master-of-none).

Yet they designed the game to be also flexible and this generated some issue but that's the good of ESO if you ask me.

Note that in most game the class define your job and you can't be a "NB tank", in most games NB would and could only mean Physical DPS, we would have much more classes probably but with much less flexibility for each.

As you may have noticed I used the word "intention" because, when you make a game, sometimes things takes a very different turn from what you were expecting, there's a huge variable that comes into play: players.

Players sometimes comes up with ideas that you where never thinking of, ideas that works so well that ends up by "defining a meta".

Personally I don't really think that the "Balance" skill has been designed for being the ultimate tool for DK tanking, that skill was probably never intended for tanking at all, and if you see DK tanks who permablock 100% uptime regardless of fight time it's probably this one skill that you should blame which, combined with helping hands, gives you infinite sustain.

Take the same tank, replace balance with spikes (for major ward/protection) and you will se that he can't keep the fight forever as he did before, you will see him heavy attacking occasionaly, less then other classes but he will need that.

If you don't have a way to recover magicka (and tank usually don't) helping hands is barely effective:

Every Earthen Heart skill cost like 4k magicka and you have around 20 K, only exception is petrify which cost around 3k but that's not a skill you are going to use probably.

That means 5 casts at best but not really 5 because you are also:

Rooting Enemies
Using green dragon blood
Using spiked armor

If we have to multiple interrupt we cast Deep Breath

All these skills does cost a lot of magicka and does not triggers helping hands, in an actual hard fight you keep self buffs always on and other skills depending on need.

All of this changes if you can recover magicka (while getting the same buff that you would get with spiked armor) so, ironically, what makes DKs the sustain god is a non-DK skill which just happened to work well with a passive.


Now, beside all these "class-related" talk, we are getting out of the point which is tanking, not with DKs nor with any other class: just "tanking" regardless the class.


1) We can see many DK (like me) which are pointing out that stay there and block is boring (as a playstyle not 'cause we r too good/OP at it)

2) We can also see other classes stating out that they cannot permablock like DK do hence the can't get the same results



We are pointing the very same problem imho but we are just limiting it to "our" needs but we are just complaining all about one thing mainly= blocking.


Blocking looks to be an issue to me and as someone pointed nerfing it ended up to only give DKs more advantage.

DK should keep this advantage as it's their primary job, templars have more heals, sorcs more splash n so on. If we remove this advanteges the whole "class" concept became worthless we should just be all "one universal class" with access to all skills (which could work and be cool too maybe but it's beyond the tanking issues).

Reworking the way tanking works (by making less needed to permablock n by giving the tank something more useful to do for the group there in EVERY content) would probably close the gap between classes or even change the things entirely.

Without the need to block this much probably Templars/NB would make amongst the best tanks since they can also heal themselves/group, throw shards as an instance.

DK could soak damage (best balance)
Templars heal trough it (best against DpS)
NB dodge (best against burst dmg)

and so on

White wabbit

SquareSausage wrote: »

God, there are really some silly suggestions in here.

Demanding tanks have more DPS, well lets consider, a tank is a damage taker, not a damage dealer, youre chosen role is implicitly to soak up the damage and we do that with a combination of sets, skills and CP. This is a known, in all and every game there ever has been. Giving a fully specced tank high dps potential imbalances PvP into the bargain.

Here's an idea, if people want to faceroll dungeons with 4 dps, then play your dps char, if you dont have one, then level one. Its not tanks job to be banging out 'top deeps'. The tank comes into being in trials, vet dungeons and

Noldornir wrote: »

From my point of view those asking for a buff for other classes/nerfs to dks (because, let's say, DK is the best tank class) are right in the intentions but are understimating what a change in tanking playstyle would be.

First, let's be honest while it is true that DK makes better tanks it is also true that EVERY class shines in a role in a way that other classes can't.

The original intentions of the design were probably this:

Dragonknight= Best tank
Templar= Best Healer
Sorceror= Best Mag DD
Nightblade= Best Stam DD

Warden came in later and he probably was intended to be the real "jack-of-all-trades" (some may adds master-of-none).

Yet they designed the game to be also flexible and this generated some issue but that's the good of ESO if you ask me.

Note that in most game the class define your job and you can't be a "NB tank", in most games NB would and could only mean Physical DPS, we would have much more classes probably but with much less flexibility for each.

As you may have noticed I used the word "intention" because, when you make a game, sometimes things takes a very different turn from what you were expecting, there's a huge variable that comes into play: players.

Players sometimes comes up with ideas that you where never thinking of, ideas that works so well that ends up by "defining a meta".

Personally I don't really think that the "Balance" skill has been designed for being the ultimate tool for DK tanking, that skill was probably never intended for tanking at all, and if you see DK tanks who permablock 100% uptime regardless of fight time it's probably this one skill that you should blame which, combined with helping hands, gives you infinite sustain.

Take the same tank, replace balance with spikes (for major ward/protection) and you will se that he can't keep the fight forever as he did before, you will see him heavy attacking occasionaly, less then other classes but he will need that.

If you don't have a way to recover magicka (and tank usually don't) helping hands is barely effective:

Every Earthen Heart skill cost like 4k magicka and you have around 20 K, only exception is petrify which cost around 3k but that's not a skill you are going to use probably.

That means 5 casts at best but not really 5 because you are also:

Rooting Enemies
Using green dragon blood
Using spiked armor

If we have to multiple interrupt we cast Deep Breath

All these skills does cost a lot of magicka and does not triggers helping hands, in an actual hard fight you keep self buffs always on and other skills depending on need.

All of this changes if you can recover magicka (while getting the same buff that you would get with spiked armor) so, ironically, what makes DKs the sustain god is a non-DK skill which just happened to work well with a passive.


Now, beside all these "class-related" talk, we are getting out of the point which is tanking, not with DKs nor with any other class: just "tanking" regardless the class.


1) We can see many DK (like me) which are pointing out that stay there and block is boring (as a playstyle not 'cause we r too good/OP at it)

2) We can also see other classes stating out that they cannot permablock like DK do hence the can't get the same results



We are pointing the very same problem imho but we are just limiting it to "our" needs but we are just complaining all about one thing mainly= blocking.


Blocking looks to be an issue to me and as someone pointed nerfing it ended up to only give DKs more advantage.

DK should keep this advantage as it's their primary job, templars have more heals, sorcs more splash n so on. If we remove this advanteges the whole "class" concept became worthless we should just be all "one universal class" with access to all skills (which could work and be cool too maybe but it's beyond the tanking issues).

Reworking the way tanking works (by making less needed to permablock n by giving the tank something more useful to do for the group there in EVERY content) would probably close the gap between classes or even change the things entirely.

Without the need to block this much probably Templars/NB would make amongst the best tanks since they can also heal themselves/group, throw shards as an instance.

DK could soak damage (best balance)
Templars heal trough it (best against DpS)
NB dodge (best against burst dmg)

and so on

Nope that's what's wrong here forcing a class to have to play a certain way

huschdeguddzje

I don't think we should nerf dk, they are performing well, let them.
Let dks be the 3 button approach to tanking, but let other classes reach the same level of effectiveness, albeit with more effort