[Class Rep] Tanking Feedback Thread

White wabbit

huschdeguddzje wrote: »

I don't think we should nerf dk, they are performing well, let them.
Let dks be the 3 button approach to tanking, but let other classes reach the same level of effectiveness, albeit with more effort

Don't think anyone said nerf Dk's but I do think that you should be able to tank or heal on any class you want and not be pigeon holed to one class

aeowulf

huschdeguddzje wrote: »

I don't think we should nerf dk, they are performing well, let them.
Let dks be the 3 button approach to tanking, but let other classes reach the same level of effectiveness, albeit with more effort

More effort should be more effective and be available to all classes. It's what should make the difference between a top tier trial tank and a a much less experienced player.

Easy should not also be the best otherwise everyone will choose easy (which is where we are now with DK's dominating.)

Noldornir

I see you point White wabbit, those were just thrown ideas but what would class be there for? Wouldn't they become all the same then? If any class can Tank/Heal/DD (because yes if you want to be equally able to tank with all classes you must include any other role as well) like any other what's the point in picking a class over another?

If you want a situation like this:

DK=NB=TEMP=SORC=WARD where = means "can cover all roles with same results" wouldn't it be easier to remove classes and give the skill trees acces to anyone?

This whole thread is about "issues in tanking" tho not class balances adn i feel like we are going far beyond that.

1) As a Tank (DK) I'm saying "the need to permablock in certain situations" and I see that many people stated pretty much the same.
2) Many Tanks (non-DK) are saying pretty much "we can't permablock as DK does".
3)Other people came out with different issues (not enough DPS, etc.)

Point 1-2 are actually just one point if you ask me:

No need to permablock = no one will ever care to be good at it; even DKs will stop doing it.

DKs are not permablocking for fun (it's no fun at all to keep one button pressed all the time the fun come from managing resources while controlling the fight at the moment), they are doing it because it's the best thing they can do.

A trial 750CP DK tank will not permablock in Vet Banished Cells I from a random dungeon, he will probably weave light/puncture on a boss and heroic slash every now n then(for ultimate gen. not for maiming him). He doesn't need to block except Rilis heavy attacks so he puts there some damage since he has nothing better to do.

A 750CP non-DK tank won't need to block in the same situation and you won't see any major gap between the two; you see differences with good things coming from both (extra healing and resources from templars as instance).

The two tanks will end the dungeon with no problem at all, everything changes when it comes to permablocking:

Go in Vet Banished II, good old Rilis is there but this time he summons big guys there's an achievement if u dont kill em btw... an achievement for which you need a DK because he hasa to taunt them far from the group or they'll die by splash and so he has to take care of himself like in vDSA keeping 4 sub bosses or in VAA managing axes. This guy WILL permablock he doesn't even want to kill those monsters and to last the longer the possible and HERE you want a DK while, in the first instance, any class is welcome.

Other classes don't want to be like DKs i think (or they would be) they just want to be able to complete the same feats in different ways. ATM tho this is not possible because certain goals REQUIRES a permablock/semi-permablock attitude that only DKs can sustain.

We have a situation where DK and non-DK are both adressing to a "blocking" issue related with tanking that's beyond class differences.

White wabbit

Noldornir wrote: »

I see you point White wabbit, those were just thrown ideas but what would class be there for? Wouldn't they become all the same then? If any class can Tank/Heal/DD (because yes if you want to be equally able to tank with all classes you must include any other role as well) like any other what's the point in picking a class over another?

If you want a situation like this:

DK=NB=TEMP=SORC=WARD where = means "can cover all roles with same results" wouldn't it be easier to remove classes and give the skill trees acces to anyone?

This whole thread is about "issues in tanking" tho not class balances adn i feel like we are going far beyond that.

1) As a Tank (DK) I'm saying "the need to permablock in certain situations" and I see that many people stated pretty much the same.
2) Many Tanks (non-DK) are saying pretty much "we can't permablock as DK does".
3)Other people came out with different issues (not enough DPS, etc.)

Point 1-2 are actually just one point if you ask me:

No need to permablock = no one will ever care to be good at it; even DKs will stop doing it.

DKs are not permablocking for fun (it's no fun at all to keep one button pressed all the time the fun come from managing resources while controlling the fight at the moment), they are doing it because it's the best thing they can do.

A trial 750CP DK tank will not permablock in Vet Banished Cells I from a random dungeon, he will probably weave light/puncture on a boss and heroic slash every now n then(for ultimate gen. not for maiming him). He doesn't need to block except Rilis heavy attacks so he puts there some damage since he has nothing better to do.

A 750CP non-DK tank won't need to block in the same situation and you won't see any major gap between the two; you see differences with good things coming from both (extra healing and resources from templars as instance).

The two tanks will end the dungeon with no problem at all, everything changes when it comes to permablocking:

Go in Vet Banished II, good old Rilis is there but this time he summons big guys there's an achievement if u dont kill em btw... an achievement for which you need a DK because he hasa to taunt them far from the group or they'll die by splash and so he has to take care of himself like in vDSA keeping 4 sub bosses or in VAA managing axes. This guy WILL permablock he doesn't even want to kill those monsters and to last the longer the possible and HERE you want a DK while, in the first instance, any class is welcome.

Other classes don't want to be like DKs i think (or they would be) they just want to be able to complete the same feats in different ways. ATM tho this is not possible because certain goals REQUIRES a permablock/semi-permablock attitude that only DKs can sustain.

We have a situation where DK and non-DK are both adressing to a "blocking" issue related with tanking that's beyond class differences.

Dds can pick any class and run on it , healer limited to maybe 2 classes and tanks again maybe 2 classes , all I'm saying is that it's been that way for awhile isn't it time for a change

aeowulf

@Noldornir

You have a lot of good points, no one really knows the direction the devs want the game to go (I believe their initial intentions were as you posted, but now beleive they want every class to be able to perform every role)

I personaly would like to see every class being able to perform each role with roughly the same ability, just in their own way. For example take NB. We have NB healers using blood magic & NB tanks used to 'sap tank'. This was a good alternative to DK tanking. (note i'm using past tense here.) Right now the gap between DK/warden tanks and the other classes in this role is too great. To a point non-DK are not desired in vet trials.

And again, I agree no class wants to be like DK, and the DK always has the option not to perma block if they don't want to. Other classes either need to sacrifice too much or simply do not have the ability/sustain to permablock. The only real issue around perma block for me is particle effects obscuring or at least making it a lot tougher to see when you need to block, or not. This isn't even an in game balance issue.

A certain irony being outside trials when blocking is less important, it's way easier to see when you need to block. In a trial, it's tougher as you can have 12 sets of effects hitting the mob at the same time. Missing that block cannot happen, ever. Then there are a few fights where heavy attacks are not an option. Not blocking is risky and the excess of particle effects make it more risky than it should be.

BejaProphet

So long as people think tanking=perma blocking, things will seem broken.

When people learn to stop perma blocking, you realize that you are surrounded by stamina refills literally every single fight, you only have to reach out and pick it up. It's called heavy attack. Your sustain issues literally vanish over night.

RavenSworn

BejaProphet wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

Can we please start differentiating between Tanks and Dragonknights?
Just because they are the meta doesnt mean the tanking playstyle has to be adjusted on their behalf.

Lets look at the Dragonknight skills that "help (actually define)" tanking:

Active Skills:

-Unrelenting Grip: Magicka based chain that gives magicka back if it fails, soft aggros, deals fire damage (has a chance to set target on fire) and gives you major expedition

-Hardened Armor: Magicka based Major Resolve and Major Ward, gives a shield equal to 17% of your health for ~3sec, returns magic damage to melee attackers

-Choking Talons: Magicka based AoE root/immobalisation, deals magic damage, AoE minor maim for 7secs, synergy that deals more magic damage

-Green Dragon Blood: Magicka based instant heal (37% of your missing health), gives major fortitude, major endurance and minor vitality

-Deep Breath: Magicka based AoE interrupt, that deals magic damage and heals you for 115% of it, deals extra damage after ~3 secs

-Magma Shell (Ulti): Limits incoming damage to 3% of your max health while dealing flame damage every sec for 11secs, allies around you gain a damage shield for 116% of their health for 9secs

-Igneous Weapons: Support: Magicka based wep/spell damage buff, that gives major sorcery and major brutality to allies around you for 30 secs

-Igneous Shield: Magicka based shield, that gives your allies a damage shield and yourself 200% more of the shield, you also gain major mending for 3 secs

Passives:

-Warmth: Damaging enemies with Ardent Flame abilities (Chains) also reduces their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds.

-Combustion: When you apply Burning (Chains) to an enemy, you restore 500 Magicka.

-Iron Skin: Block an additional 10% damage

-Burning Heart: Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic ability is active. (Hardened Armor, Talons, Dragon Blood, Deep Breath)

-Elder Dragon: Increases Health Recovery by 5% for each Draconic Power ability slotted. (Hardened Armor, Talons, Dragon Blood, Deep Breath)

-Scaled Armor: Increases Spell Resistance by 3300

-Battle Roar: When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore 46 Health, 46 Magicka, and 46 Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.

-Mountain's Blessing: When you cast an Earthen Heart ability (Igneous Weapons/Shield), you and your group members within 30 meters gain Minor Brutality for 20 seconds, increasing your Weapon Damage 5%+ If you are in combat, you also gain 3 Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

-Helping Hands: When you cast an Earthen Heart Ability (Igneous Weapons/Shield), you restore 990 Stamina

Since I main a Nightblade Tank, lets compare it to it:

Active Skills:

-Mirage: Magicka based major evasion, minor resolve and minor ward

-Bolstering Darkness (Ulti): 5m radius of major protection to you and your allies, allies can also activate a synergy to heal themselves over and gain 70% moving speed, enemies in the radius get slowed down for 70%

-Dark Cloak: Magicka based heal over time that heals you for 32% of your max health over ~4 seconds, also applies minor protection for ~3 secs

-Refreshing Path: Magicka based heal/damage over time, you also gain major expedition while standing in it

-Manifestation of Terror: Magicka based AoE CC that spreads the ads around sending them running in "fear"for 4secs, takes 2 seconds to arm, leaves 2 runes behind (each rune fears up to 6 ads), reduces movement speed for 50% when the effect ends
Note: This Skill is not viable at all, it spreads the mob around instead of rooting them also making them CC immune.

-Dark Shade: Magicka based AoE/single target minor maim that summons a shade that applies minor main to a single target and "occasionally" an AoE minor main, deals also magic damag

-Leeching Strikes: Stamina based stamina managament, that gives you 100 stamina and 1,5k health every light attack for 20 secs, when the effect ends you get 4k stamina back.
Note: This Skill is also not really viable since it costs around 900 Stamina and forces the tank to light attack to gain Stamina back, also the 20 sec duration is too long and 4k Stam return is barely anything.

Passives:

-Refreshing Shadows: Increases Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 15%.

-Shadow Barrier: Casting a Shadow ability (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade) grants you Major Resolve and Major Ward for 6 seconds, increasing Physical and Spell Resistance by 5280. This duration is increased by 25% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. (Thats 16 seconds with 7 heavy armor)

-Dark Vigor: Increases your Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted. (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade)

-Dark Veil: Increases duration of Shadow abilities by 15%. (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade)

-Catalyst: After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.

-Magicka Flood: Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted. (Leeching Strikes)

-Transfer: Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.(Leeching Strikes)

You can cearly see that the Skills from the DKs are bloated with needed Buffs/Debuffs/Damage doing several things with just one skill, while also having the best resource management through its passives. (i.e. Block reduction, Stamina and Magicka return)
Other classes dont even have a decent AoE root (not CC) and while still having struggles with resources.

First balance every other class before you want to change the "tanking playstyle", because right now, even after the Summerset patch which helped a lot, no trial guild wants a Nightblade Tank to tank their trials. Its always Dragonknights, which is understandable if you just look at their skills.

Also I would like to add: The Silver Leash skill is borderline useless. The hit boxes in this game are way too big and I dont want to "chain" the same ad 3 times and waste 9k Stamina.

Balance the classes before you change anything about tanking. DK Tanks have been meta since the beggining of the game, if you look at this thread you can see it became a synonym for tanking itself. Change that first !!

Let me first say that I am for narrowing the gap between classes in tanking ability. I was very happy for my non DK tank associates when they made the summerset changes. So don't hear this as me being against that.

But one of the glorious things about this game is the endless character choices. We can customize what we are to no end. But every choice comes with an opportunity cost, and it should come with an opportunity cost. When you choose which class to tank on, you aren't choosing weaker. You are choosing to be strong at different things. You are choosing a toolkit.

When you choose your tool kit. You chose different things than I did when I chose a DK. And you got some awesome stuff when you did. Nightblades have awesome PvP evasion skills, I would love some of those sorc abilities on my tank. Wardens are nuts. Liofa has made a warden build that is fantastically tanky and he can drop major game changing heals on his team!! Also in the other classes you didn't just choose strengths, you chose incredible flexibility as well.

I chose something as well. I chose to give up all of that as an opportunity cost so that I could have one thing only. The pinnacle tanking tool kit. I said I don't care how many other things I suck at, how many other things I can't do, my purpose was to focus in on one task only. Give me the very best tools for tanking. And that is an ok choice too. It is not wrong for that to be a choice in the game. It can only be said to be "better" when you reduce the classes to talking about tanking only. I gave up your flexibility and opportunity to bring out of the box things to the table, and chose pure tanking. I can't heal my group like Liofa's warden. But guess what? I got some pure tanking things in exchange. Wardens are beginning to be considered on par with DK's by many. Heck, other than engulfing flames many are starting to say Wardens are the superior choice. But its not because they are equal at the most central aspects of tanking. It is because they are solid in the central aspects of tanking and bring nice non-tanking extras with them to the task. I chose DK because I willing would trade the extra's for the pure tanking.

Here is the point of all this. While I am for narrowing the gap, it would be horrifically unfair to make the other classes true equals to the DK when it comes to pure tanking. We have traded many many things for that premier tanking tool kit. If you were to make the other classes true equals then you absolutely crush us. We gave up everything to be a little better at that. So yes, narrow the gap and give other classes some of the non negotiable tools like they did with silver leash, but they absolutely should not make them completely equal to the DK.

here, have an awesome.

Osubaker33

As far as bringing all classes into somewhat parity for tanking.

1. Warden is pretty much there and is a viable alternative to DK.
2. NB was helped alot with the new heal but needs more mitigation to be viable in the most difficult content.
3. Templar needs a lot of help. I had a templar tank and turned it into a dps because tanking on a templar is just awful. Possibly the worst tanking class now.
4. Sorc - not sure what to say on this one. I found it fun in dungeons, would need considerably more to be any sort of viable alternative to a dk/warden in the most difficult content. I dont think the juice is worth the squeeze.

Noldornir

BejaProphet wrote: »

So long as people think tanking=perma blocking, things will seem broken.

When people learn to stop perma blocking, you realize that you are surrounded by stamina refills literally every single fight, you only have to reach out and pick it up. It's called heavy attack. Your sustain issues literally vanish over night.

That's the point but as long as there will be at least 1 content that require permablocks (and right now there are many more) this will be a "need" not a "thinking" issue.

My capped res, CPs, maims, n other DR feats can't keep me alive in Vet trials, I DO want to trial hence i need to permablock even if I'd rather do something else (possibly funnier than keeping a button pressed).

We need to be able to do EVERY content without permablocks or we'll just make builds 'around blockin for that particular fight where u really need it or you will never go there.

BejaProphet

Noldornir wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

So long as people think tanking=perma blocking, things will seem broken.

When people learn to stop perma blocking, you realize that you are surrounded by stamina refills literally every single fight, you only have to reach out and pick it up. It's called heavy attack. Your sustain issues literally vanish over night.

That's the point but as long as there will be at least 1 content that require permablocks (and right now there are many more) this will be a "need" not a "thinking" issue.

My capped res, CPs, maims, n other DR feats can't keep me alive in Vet trials, I DO want to trial hence i need to permablock even if I'd rather do something else (possibly funnier than keeping a button pressed).

We need to be able to do EVERY content without permablocks or we'll just make builds 'around blockin for that particular fight where u really need it or you will never go there.

Now THAT reasoning probably has some merit. At least it has merit specifically for the tanks wanting to tank those few fights and I do believe they are very very few. As I said before, I believe you can count them on one hand.

But while I grant you the validity of your point, at least see that the argument is being overstated by most people. When we speak as if the other 99.9% of tanking is defined by those fights, we are being ridiculous. Overwhelmingly perma-blocking is a horrible way to tank. And even in those five or less fights that might require perma-blocking, I would bet 20 bucks that if you just gave in and used a selfish survival set other than alkosh, its possible to not perma-block those fights either. (For the record I do use Alkosh) And the game isn't going to punish you for swapping, only the "leet dudes" are going to complain. So acting like tanking is synonymous with perma-blocking is just plain misleading. Being a slave to the current meta and making characters that can't survive except by perma blocking, that is the main story.

Conversely, if people stopped chasing high magicka regeneration and just made their tanks sturdy enough to stop blocking for only a measly two seconds then it would change everything.

My cost of block is around 400 stamina. I can get dinged 4 times per second for that cost.

So in two seconds that I stop blocking, its worth up to 3,200 stamina saved, plus a landed heavy attack (how many thousand is that with tenacity boosted?) I'm guessing at least 3k, possible a good chunk more (dramatically more if I time it with off balance). Plus I get a tick of stamina regeneration which is around 600 for me.

So in just being man enough to not block for two seconds I'm gaining 6.8k + depending on the accuracy of my guess on heavy attack.

So I can make around a 7k difference in my stamina simply by being sturdy enough to stop blocking for a mere 2 seconds. And people think the secret to sustain is that I can turn 4k magicka into 990 stamina? It's cute that they think that.

I_B_Squishy

P

BejaProphet wrote: »

So long as people think tanking=perma blocking, things will seem broken.

Bang

Nobody wants to learn encounters and heavy attack because the easy way is just blocking everything......boring.

P

BejaProphet wrote: »

When people learn to stop perma blocking, you realize that you are surrounded by stamina refills literally every single fight, you only have to reach out and pick it up. It's called heavy attack. Your sustain issues literally vanish over night.

And this is where increasing sword and board damage to the other weapons level comes in......make it fun to play tank, give them some damage. I really don't understand this opposition to increasing sword and board damage-guys are scared of a weapon skill overpowering tanks because they can block and wear heavy armor, oh wait! We already have that with ice staff!

There is absolutely no reason to *not* increase sword and board damage since the concept of damage+blocking is already in game with ice staff-sword and board if left alone is going to die..............

Tasear

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

I consider balancing the classes in this role the most important thing. Until that's done, most tanking feedback is coming from DK & warden.

We need feedback from all classes, we need improvements to NB, templar & sorc to get the to a comparable desirability as DK/Warden in end game content. DK ruled, and warden came in at a close-enough second. The other three classes also need to be at this 'close enough' place, and they aren't.

I have a Templar Heal-Tank that I play in dungeons, and I am gearing up a Sorc-Tank as well. I've been playing tanks because I enjoy the various styles of play the classes can bring, but the universal "pain" that each class keeps running into is the META that enslaves support roles and merely focuses on "MOAH DPS!!!"

That's what I keep trying to emphasize, and while the cynical say it won't ever change, I do want our Representative to take note and TELL the Devs this is a problem.

@Alcast
@Checkmath
@FeaR Turbo
@GandTheImpaler
@Hexys
@Joy_Division
@NightbladeMechanics
@Liofa
@Masel92
@Quantum_V
@stileanima
@Tasear

I mention this often to other class representatives. It's a major concern that support tank/healers are feeling not useful or slave to dps.

Also been brought up overall experiences in gameplay . Like how it's hard for a tank to level or do solo content.

There's also other things but know that we are lurking.

If you feel passionately about something there's also tank discord https://discord.gg/JzF44bU

But try to keep thread Clean with just listing pain points.

WhiteNoiseMaker

Tasear wrote: »

I mention this often to other class representatives. It's a major concern that support tank/healers are feeling not useful or slave to dps.

Also been brought up overall experiences in gameplay . Like how it's hard for a tank to level or do solo content.

There's also other things but know that we are lurking.

If you feel passionately about something there's also tank discord https://discord.gg/JzF44bU

But try to keep thread Clean with just listing pain points.

Thank you Tasear. When I read the first set of notes, it felt like people jumped straight to a LOT of DK ideas rather than generalized tank experiences, but I understand that it was a summary. It makes me feel reassured that our pain points are being emphasized by you. Thank you.

Narvuntien

Maybe the solution is to actually make perma blocking impossible?
You press the button and you block for x seconds.
You could make the block cost exponential or something else but I also think that would be terrible.
You can give blocking an activation cost.

Know what, while I think these would "solve" the problem but I also see why they would be terrible or how you could get around them as I am writing these idea's down.

Like if there was a limit for how long you hold down block "perma blockers" would just extremely briefly drop block then put it right back up again.
Having a set time and a cooldown would be really bad, yeah okay so you have to time it, forced to time it. but you screw up and you die. thats too hard to learn. not to mention PVP and the whole flow of combat.
A ridiculously increasing block cost would punish low stamina users for those times when they really have to block for a long time.

This is a really hard puzzle to solve

As for the proliferation of perma block builds If someone comes on the forums or looks it up else where and goes. "Tank build pls". They want the best build, they haven't played tank they have no concept of nuance or needing different things for different content. You try to tell them this is good for this and this is good for this and they'll respond with "Yeah but what's the best build, I want the best build." People don't want to carry around 5 different gear sets and learn each dungeon individually and what they need to know for each dungeon. "I'll just permablock and ignore all mechanics". Then they'll always find tanking incredibly boring.... and that is why we don't have any tanks.

There is this really big learning curve with tanking that are scary and new players don't want to climb it.

DoobZ69

Hi I main a Sorc tank.

A leader of one of my guilds told me he used to be a Sorc tank and wouldn't let me tank trials for the guild runs unless I was running a DK or a Warden and I should switch to DPS. Reason: permablocking.

The META is driven by the score runners for which the best option is a class which can provide the best dps benefit to the group-->That benefit cannot be outweighed by the danger of the main tank dying. The best class for that is DK/Warden (due to permablock they are the safest) and their ability to at the same time provide the DPS (passives and due to permablock it allows them to "more safely" wear "riskier" sets ie. Alkosh).

The other 3 classes cannot deliver both of these benefits. They either sacrifice the dps benefit (which results in slower and lower scoring runs) or sacrifice the survivability (higher chance of dying results in slower and lower scoring runs).

I can and will be able to tank every vet dungeon and trial on my Sorc tank. I don't expect to get great scores. But the problem is that when 11 other people think you can't do it it doesn't matter whether you can or not. The problem is NOT them, the problem is the design and the resulting META and its' requirements.

So problem #1:
Not all classes can deliver equal survival capability at the same time as delivering the dps benefit to the group. This need to be addressed first. There will always be META but currently the gap is too great and must be narrowed.
The META skills and items which come with this drive. Ebon allows the DPS classes to drop HP in favour of more damage which the tank by himself could never dream to make up for. Warhorn active bonus overshadows any/every other ultimate and when you spend the ulti points on it you can't use the other ulti, making the other ulti a waste of space unless it provides a passive bonus at the very least.

Problem #2:
Large (enemy) group tanking is a nightmare because it is such a massive chore. I spam my single target taunt 100X more frequently than any other skill. It has become a 1 button affair. There must be a way to allow for multi-taunting without making some skills a multi-taunt be default. WoW and SWTOR (copy-cat games) allow the player to go into a "defensive" stance/toggle where the skills emit more "threat". Perhaps ESO could implement a similar feature for someone who intends to have multi-target taunting ie. dedicated tank.
My typical dungeon runs are mostly like this:

Charge>encase>taunt>taunt>taunt>taunt>taunt. Enemies dead.
Charge>encase>taunt>taunt>taunt>taunt>taunt. Enemies dead.

You can argue that "you don't have to taunt everything, let the dps take some targets" but then I'm also not applying the Pierce debuff which results in slower dps overall. Again, you can argue that's the trade-off but its not as I am expected to do my role. Something needs to change.

Churr!

Lord_Eomer

1. Frost tanking is still far behind than sword and board, pretty disappointed that Gaps are huge when camparing both. S & B offer easy access to debuff, taunt, minor heroism, minor maim (100% uptime), 1x extra enchantment on shield, range damage reduction passive, defensive posture damage & block cost reduction, better ultimate

2. Change Frost Staff (VMA, VDSA, VAS etc.) Set bonus to tanking relevant. They are currently useless and can not be used for any role, tanking, dps or healing. Add new sets for Frost tanking

WhiteNoiseMaker

DoobZ69 wrote: »

Problem #2:
Large (enemy) group tanking is a nightmare because it is such a massive chore. I spam my single target taunt 100X more frequently than any other skill. It has become a 1 button affair. There must be a way to allow for multi-taunting without making some skills a multi-taunt be default. WoW and SWTOR (copy-cat games) allow the player to go into a "defensive" stance/toggle where the skills emit more "threat". Perhaps ESO could implement a similar feature for someone who intends to have multi-target taunting ie. dedicated tank.
My typical dungeon runs are mostly like this:

Charge>encase>taunt>taunt>taunt>taunt>taunt. Enemies dead.
Charge>encase>taunt>taunt>taunt>taunt>taunt. Enemies dead.

You can argue that "you don't have to taunt everything, let the dps take some targets" but then I'm also not applying the Pierce debuff which results in slower dps overall. Again, you can argue that's the trade-off but its not as I am expected to do my role. Something needs to change.

This is case I totally empathize with, and the problem is EVERYONE has a different idea of what is a "priority target'.

I've been in arguments where I'm running Vet Falkreath and had salty DPS yelling about my not taunting EVERY atronach on the board while tanking/watching the boss at the same, while others are simply content to let me gather aggro first and draw them to the flame atro as I keep tabs on Domihaus, while the Deeps take care of their own survival for the moment.

Conversely I have also been in dungeons where DPS by all rights should be able to take care of themselves, like ICP's "Templar, Necromancer, Berserker, Knight" battle, where the order of priority is old hat to me, and yet some DPS players have again gotten salty as hell because they expect all of the enemies there to be taunted because "they are elites' and can potentially kill the Deeps. In my opinion these DPS have been coddled by someone prior and they are content to stand there and just run a rotation without seeing to their own survival. But to hear them scream and whine, you'd think that I was a newby tanking that dungeon.

It's a no-win situation the way the "Priority taunt" system currently works., as the tank, you're always the bad guy to someone.

Osubaker33

Narvuntien wrote: »

Maybe the solution is to actually make perma blocking impossible?
You press the button and you block for x seconds.
You could make the block cost exponential or something else but I also think that would be terrible.
You can give blocking an activation cost.

Know what, while I think these would "solve" the problem but I also see why they would be terrible or how you could get around them as I am writing these idea's down.

Like if there was a limit for how long you hold down block "perma blockers" would just extremely briefly drop block then put it right back up again.
Having a set time and a cooldown would be really bad, yeah okay so you have to time it, forced to time it. but you screw up and you die. thats too hard to learn. not to mention PVP and the whole flow of combat.
A ridiculously increasing block cost would punish low stamina users for those times when they really have to block for a long time.

This is a really hard puzzle to solve

As for the proliferation of perma block builds If someone comes on the forums or looks it up else where and goes. "Tank build pls". They want the best build, they haven't played tank they have no concept of nuance or needing different things for different content. You try to tell them this is good for this and this is good for this and they'll respond with "Yeah but what's the best build, I want the best build." People don't want to carry around 5 different gear sets and learn each dungeon individually and what they need to know for each dungeon. "I'll just permablock and ignore all mechanics". Then they'll always find tanking incredibly boring.... and that is why we don't have any tanks.

There is this really big learning curve with tanking that are scary and new players don't want to climb it.

This is actually a really good idea. No more nerfs making people just struggling and put even more effort into being able to keep doing thier permablocking. Instead simply make it impossible. You have to choose your moments to block or whoopsie your not going to have it when you need it. Then just make the only difference between tank and non tank blocking be the amount of damage blocked. With it no longer being perma blocking you could increase the amount of damage blockable for tanks.

Osubaker33

I_B_Squishy wrote: »

P

BejaProphet wrote: »

So long as people think tanking=perma blocking, things will seem broken.

Bang

Nobody wants to learn encounters and heavy attack because the easy way is just blocking everything......boring.

P

BejaProphet wrote: »

When people learn to stop perma blocking, you realize that you are surrounded by stamina refills literally every single fight, you only have to reach out and pick it up. It's called heavy attack. Your sustain issues literally vanish over night.

And this is where increasing sword and board damage to the other weapons level comes in......make it fun to play tank, give them some damage. I really don't understand this opposition to increasing sword and board damage-guys are scared of a weapon skill overpowering tanks because they can block and wear heavy armor, oh wait! We already have that with ice staff!

There is absolutely no reason to *not* increase sword and board damage since the concept of damage+blocking is already in game with ice staff-sword and board if left alone is going to die..............

You can't increase Sword and Board damage because of pvp and the fact that ZoS does not balance pve and pvp seperately. Sword and Board is already borderline OP in pvp. Not only does it offer very nice damage if you use sets like seventh legion but it also offers you the easiest way to give enemy players major defile. Its the holy trifecta of pvp, hard to kill, does good damage, and defiles. Almost every two hander pvp build back bars sword and board.

I_B_Squishy

ZOS DOES balance pvp and pve separately. Why do people keep saying this? Several abilities for example negate have different effects in PVP............for bash, just replace defile with a different effect like snare in pvp. if major defile is the only thing that would make it OP. Then boost damage to destro staff levels

dodgehopper_ESO

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

I consider balancing the classes in this role the most important thing. Until that's done, most tanking feedback is coming from DK & warden.

We need feedback from all classes, we need improvements to NB, templar & sorc to get the to a comparable desirability as DK/Warden in end game content. DK ruled, and warden came in at a close-enough second. The other three classes also need to be at this 'close enough' place, and they aren't.

I have a Templar Heal-Tank that I play in dungeons, and I am gearing up a Sorc-Tank as well. I've been playing tanks because I enjoy the various styles of play the classes can bring, but the universal "pain" that each class keeps running into is the META that enslaves support roles and merely focuses on "MOAH DPS!!!"

That's what I keep trying to emphasize, and while the cynical say it won't ever change, I do want our Representative to take note and TELL the Devs this is a problem.

@Alcast
@Checkmath
@FeaR Turbo
@GandTheImpaler
@Hexys
@Joy_Division
@NightbladeMechanics
@Liofa
@Masel92
@Quantum_V
@stileanima
@Tasear

Dungeon tanking isn't good enough. Other classes need to be able to Trial-Tank or its pretty lame.

dodgehopper_ESO

Xanxarib16_ESO wrote: »

The 2 or 3 Tanking Problems we have in ESO is 1. a very simple Force Taunt mechanic and 2 a way to have unlimited Blocking and 3 some very low DPS.




Unlimiteed blocking

now it looks like over the years ESO have tried to Force tanks to become more active in reactive blocking and doing some damage or Buffing... but they failed time and time again. this is also one of the reason i gave up on ESO, the tanking was way to easy.
My suggestion to fix this is to add a new resource bar that is used for Dodging and Blocking... when you activly block you will slowly drain the bar, and if you stop blocking you will regain the resource at a fix slow amount, now if you make light attacks and heavy attacks you will regain a fixed amount of the resource back, that way you are now forcing Tanks to weave in attacks between blocks... maybe give some skills give you some of that resource also.
When it comes to dodging make Dodge cost so much that you can at max dodge twice in a row, maybe give the sword&shield skill line a reduce cost in dodging so tanks can maybe dodge 3 or 4 times in a row.
With this fix you can still have boss attacks that even tanks need to dodge away from you will also have forced tanks to be more reactive...


Force taunt

now you dont have to fix this but Threat and Threat generation would also force tanks into doing damage to maintain agro, pair this with my suggestion to Block and you will have one more tool that will force tanks to be reactive tanks.


Low DPS

if you move away from the Force taunts, you might need to increase the tanks DPS. now the best solution to fix this would be to let tanks damage scale of MAX HP...!

Perhaps they could give Tanks half damage bonus to health. In this way their damage would not rival DD's but would be better than 'wet noodle'. This is a dangerous road though in the same way that Magic builds with ridiculous perma-shielding can be. This is why I disliked the removal of overcharging from the game 3 years ago.

OGLezard

Bucky Balls wrote: »

The role of tank seems synonymous with dragonknight which is more than unfortunate for those who enjoy experimenting with other class/race combinations. PVE CC capability is almost non-existent for nightblades yet given nb's passives and abilities they should (and have done in the past) made excellent tanks. There seem to be glass floors and ceilings which constrain tanks into very limited content and context and, as @WhiteNoiseMaker has comprehensively described, the tank role is largely slaved to the demands of dmg dealers - as, incidentally, have healers. This latter is due to design where the perpetual solution to most pve content seems to be 'more dps'; that may also be true for pvp in the sense of higher burst damage but I suspect that pvp relies on a more holistic resource/attack/defense balancing approach.

Some good ideas introduced, despite minor shortcomings, include frost staff use for taunt and use of magicka for blocking while wielding one; this can give rise to interesting possibilities that enables a tank to distribute load of attribute use. I would welcome more of this kind of design. Equally, having a non-class specific means of pulling in ranged adversaries (undaunted Silver whatever-it's called) is great, particularly since it was achieved without diminishing existing dk chains(dk's now have 2 means of chaining using stamina or magicka which is great).

TLDR: separate notion of role and class (and race) completely so that the 'play how you want' paradigm becomes actual. Equally, make tank role distinct enough for players to make their own viable decisions regarding skills, attributes and gear without being forced into a limited subset by dps necessity/constraints.

We know that that wont happen, but man I would LOVE to actually be able to do what you are suggesting.

dodgehopper_ESO

BejaProphet wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

Can we please start differentiating between Tanks and Dragonknights?
Just because they are the meta doesnt mean the tanking playstyle has to be adjusted on their behalf.

Lets look at the Dragonknight skills that "help (actually define)" tanking:

Active Skills:

-Unrelenting Grip: Magicka based chain that gives magicka back if it fails, soft aggros, deals fire damage (has a chance to set target on fire) and gives you major expedition

-Hardened Armor: Magicka based Major Resolve and Major Ward, gives a shield equal to 17% of your health for ~3sec, returns magic damage to melee attackers

-Choking Talons: Magicka based AoE root/immobalisation, deals magic damage, AoE minor maim for 7secs, synergy that deals more magic damage

-Green Dragon Blood: Magicka based instant heal (37% of your missing health), gives major fortitude, major endurance and minor vitality

-Deep Breath: Magicka based AoE interrupt, that deals magic damage and heals you for 115% of it, deals extra damage after ~3 secs

-Magma Shell (Ulti): Limits incoming damage to 3% of your max health while dealing flame damage every sec for 11secs, allies around you gain a damage shield for 116% of their health for 9secs

-Igneous Weapons: Support: Magicka based wep/spell damage buff, that gives major sorcery and major brutality to allies around you for 30 secs

-Igneous Shield: Magicka based shield, that gives your allies a damage shield and yourself 200% more of the shield, you also gain major mending for 3 secs

Passives:

-Warmth: Damaging enemies with Ardent Flame abilities (Chains) also reduces their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds.

-Combustion: When you apply Burning (Chains) to an enemy, you restore 500 Magicka.

-Iron Skin: Block an additional 10% damage

-Burning Heart: Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic ability is active. (Hardened Armor, Talons, Dragon Blood, Deep Breath)

-Elder Dragon: Increases Health Recovery by 5% for each Draconic Power ability slotted. (Hardened Armor, Talons, Dragon Blood, Deep Breath)

-Scaled Armor: Increases Spell Resistance by 3300

-Battle Roar: When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore 46 Health, 46 Magicka, and 46 Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.

-Mountain's Blessing: When you cast an Earthen Heart ability (Igneous Weapons/Shield), you and your group members within 30 meters gain Minor Brutality for 20 seconds, increasing your Weapon Damage 5%+ If you are in combat, you also gain 3 Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

-Helping Hands: When you cast an Earthen Heart Ability (Igneous Weapons/Shield), you restore 990 Stamina

Since I main a Nightblade Tank, lets compare it to it:

Active Skills:

-Mirage: Magicka based major evasion, minor resolve and minor ward

-Bolstering Darkness (Ulti): 5m radius of major protection to you and your allies, allies can also activate a synergy to heal themselves over and gain 70% moving speed, enemies in the radius get slowed down for 70%

-Dark Cloak: Magicka based heal over time that heals you for 32% of your max health over ~4 seconds, also applies minor protection for ~3 secs

-Refreshing Path: Magicka based heal/damage over time, you also gain major expedition while standing in it

-Manifestation of Terror: Magicka based AoE CC that spreads the ads around sending them running in "fear"for 4secs, takes 2 seconds to arm, leaves 2 runes behind (each rune fears up to 6 ads), reduces movement speed for 50% when the effect ends
Note: This Skill is not viable at all, it spreads the mob around instead of rooting them also making them CC immune.

-Dark Shade: Magicka based AoE/single target minor maim that summons a shade that applies minor main to a single target and "occasionally" an AoE minor main, deals also magic damag

-Leeching Strikes: Stamina based stamina managament, that gives you 100 stamina and 1,5k health every light attack for 20 secs, when the effect ends you get 4k stamina back.
Note: This Skill is also not really viable since it costs around 900 Stamina and forces the tank to light attack to gain Stamina back, also the 20 sec duration is too long and 4k Stam return is barely anything.

Passives:

-Refreshing Shadows: Increases Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 15%.

-Shadow Barrier: Casting a Shadow ability (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade) grants you Major Resolve and Major Ward for 6 seconds, increasing Physical and Spell Resistance by 5280. This duration is increased by 25% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. (Thats 16 seconds with 7 heavy armor)

-Dark Vigor: Increases your Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted. (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade)

-Dark Veil: Increases duration of Shadow abilities by 15%. (Bolst. Darkness, Dark Cloak, Refresh. Path, Manifestation of Terror, Dark Shade)

-Catalyst: After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.

-Magicka Flood: Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted. (Leeching Strikes)

-Transfer: Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.(Leeching Strikes)

You can cearly see that the Skills from the DKs are bloated with needed Buffs/Debuffs/Damage doing several things with just one skill, while also having the best resource management through its passives. (i.e. Block reduction, Stamina and Magicka return)
Other classes dont even have a decent AoE root (not CC) and while still having struggles with resources.

First balance every other class before you want to change the "tanking playstyle", because right now, even after the Summerset patch which helped a lot, no trial guild wants a Nightblade Tank to tank their trials. Its always Dragonknights, which is understandable if you just look at their skills.

Also I would like to add: The Silver Leash skill is borderline useless. The hit boxes in this game are way too big and I dont want to "chain" the same ad 3 times and waste 9k Stamina.

Balance the classes before you change anything about tanking. DK Tanks have been meta since the beggining of the game, if you look at this thread you can see it became a synonym for tanking itself. Change that first !!

Let me first say that I am for narrowing the gap between classes in tanking ability. I was very happy for my non DK tank associates when they made the summerset changes. So don't hear this as me being against that.

But one of the glorious things about this game is the endless character choices. We can customize what we are to no end. But every choice comes with an opportunity cost, and it should come with an opportunity cost. When you choose which class to tank on, you aren't choosing weaker. You are choosing to be strong at different things. You are choosing a toolkit.

When you choose your tool kit. You chose different things than I did when I chose a DK. And you got some awesome stuff when you did. Nightblades have awesome PvP evasion skills, I would love some of those sorc abilities on my tank. Wardens are nuts. Liofa has made a warden build that is fantastically tanky and he can drop major game changing heals on his team!! Also in the other classes you didn't just choose strengths, you chose incredible flexibility as well.

I chose something as well. I chose to give up all of that as an opportunity cost so that I could have one thing only. The pinnacle tanking tool kit. I said I don't care how many other things I suck at, how many other things I can't do, my purpose was to focus in on one task only. Give me the very best tools for tanking. And that is an ok choice too. It is not wrong for that to be a choice in the game. It can only be said to be "better" when you reduce the classes to talking about tanking only. I gave up your flexibility and opportunity to bring out of the box things to the table, and chose pure tanking. I can't heal my group like Liofa's warden. But guess what? I got some pure tanking things in exchange. Wardens are beginning to be considered on par with DK's by many. Heck, other than engulfing flames many are starting to say Wardens are the superior choice. But its not because they are equal at the most central aspects of tanking. It is because they are solid in the central aspects of tanking and bring nice non-tanking extras with them to the task. I chose DK because I willing would trade the extra's for the pure tanking.

Here is the point of all this. While I am for narrowing the gap, it would be horrifically unfair to make the other classes true equals to the DK when it comes to pure tanking. We have traded many many things for that premier tanking tool kit. If you were to make the other classes true equals then you absolutely crush us. We gave up everything to be a little better at that. So yes, narrow the gap and give other classes some of the non negotiable tools like they did with silver leash, but they absolutely should not make them completely equal to the DK.

I wish disagree was still an option because I would click it. I like your point about focusing on tanking but I disagree that it should only be a DK thing.

aeowulf

Tanking should not be a DK only thing, like healing should not be a templar only thing. This is only OK until you have more classes than available roles.

White wabbit

aeowulf wrote: »

Tanking should not be a DK only thing, like healing should not be a templar only thing. This is only OK until you have more classes than available roles.

Dd can play any class so why can't tanks and healers

Raraaku

I've been saying 1H and Shield should scale with max health for a good while now. You'd have to scale it roughly to 50% of what Stamina/Magicka scales to due health attribute increase is roughly 2x more than magicka/stamina. That would help out a lot for tanks and solo/overland content.

aeowulf

White wabbit wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

Tanking should not be a DK only thing, like healing should not be a templar only thing. This is only OK until you have more classes than available roles.

Dd can play any class so why can't tanks and healers

That's exactly my point It's more of any class can play DD though.

RavenSworn

Me thinks the problem to tanking needing to be tanking are the bosses mechanics themselves.

Content that don't need true tanking are what is killing it.

raj72616a

i see some suggestions on getting rid of perma blocking since that is a passive and boring play style.
but keep in mind we have pretty low skill floor with eso player base, some players *need* that ability to perma block.
instead of nerfing perma block, pls buff well timed blocking with more than just negligible extra damage and stamina gain from heavy attack.