dps gap may cause game development gap?

Royaji · May 2018

phermitgb wrote: »

Now, if we assume that the above is anywhere *near* true, then the people creating content for the game, have to create content that is at least REASONABLY accessible to players at the 15k dps range, while trying to create content that is anywhere near challenging for players at the 45k and upwards dps range?

It's called normal and veteran mode. And it seems guys at ZOS are fine with developing both of them. When people ask for harder overland they ususally just ask for veteran overland. Same as every dungeon/trial has one. Noone want's to take your normal away from you.

phermitgb wrote: »

so, the radical question I pose, becomes...wouldn't ESO, overall, as a total game, be far, FAR better off - healthier, more fun for everyone - if they found a way to significantly lower the gap between upper dps and lower dps, so that casual players were still doing 10-15k dps (or less in some cases ) and upper tiers were still only doing 30k-ish dps? I mean, wouldn't we ALL have a more challenging game if they balanced outgoing damage factors so that there was ONLY roughly a 100% gap between lower tier dps and upper tier dps, instead of 400% or more?

No, it will be less fun for those who got nerfed and content where DPS actually matters (vet trials/DLC dungeons) will become a) more sluggish for the top end of people who can do them know and b) completely inaccessible for the lower end. Under the same logic we can ask to ramp up overland to vMA difficulty (which is pretty tame by current standarts) and make 15k DPS heroes learn to play. But now it's not fun for everyone, is it?

eso_nya · May 2018

I completely agree w/ OP tho id say from what i saw from grpfinder DDs, the gap is even bigger. Lowest dps observed so far: <500.

However, the gap is just to big for reasonable balance of encounters.
In a better world, it would be somewhere around poor player pulls 20k, great player pulls 30k, hard encounters r balanced around 25k. Or whatever numbers, just closer to each other. Also mechanics happening when dps is low shouldnt result in additional dps loss. Yer already slower and wont make it to the fuhrerbrett anyways.

SixVoltCar · May 2018

I'm not reading that rant. ""FACT"" is they complain about difficulty because it's true, however, it becomes true by 3 factors: the learning curve on gear/stats/skills, upgraded gear (which is only feasible at cp160) and champion benefits. If you want a harder game, zeni must remove champion and bring you back down to the level of people trying to get through without it, if you want more difficulty, use outrageous sets and builds rather than metas.

This is a YOU problem.

Weisstag · May 2018

If you are one pc just send me a message here on forums and ill get you to 35k+ dps in 1 hour...iam not joking its actually really easy to get there...getting 45k+ actually requires skill but 35k-ish is doable by anyone

nnargun · May 2018

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

so today, my character died in couple of seconds, becasue I was stuck on that stupid crown store add thing, and loaded into a delve where a trash mob next to me kill me, while I was loading in and trying to escape out of the damn thing. but sure... no resistance. not in my experience.

anyways, to OP, contrary to some of the claims in this thread, weaving is absolutely crucial. gear makes a difference but not nearly as much difference as perfect tight rotation with weaving.

and as long as this game doesn't feature global cooldown and does feature animation canceling via weaving? dps disparity will only keep growing.

because. yeah.. this game is heavily reliant on skill. too bad that for most people that degree of skill is completely out of their reach. reducing skill cap will make the game less fun to people at the top, while still not bridging the gap completely.

I honestly don't have a solution other then bringing back some approximation of veteran zones for higher skill players. I have no solution for veteran dungeons being inaccessible for most people.

Oh come on. Reaching high DPS on MagSorc really isn't that hard. It's a five skill rotation with only 3 LAs and 2 HAs. Train that for 2 hours straight and you will reach >30k dps easy. Don't wanna train? Don't wanna achieve then. Anybody who doesn't have severe pain in their fingers can learn that. I have met complete noobs who got flawless conquerer two months after I met them. You gotta practice. Git gud gets really old but it's just too true. And as someone above said, don't start with hardest rotation in the game and get discouraged.
When I first cleared vMA it was one of the strongest feelings I've had in my life. I was literally shaking for minutes. Would it have touched me as much if it had taken me only 10 instead of 400 tries? Almost the same great feeling when I got flawless 20 clears later. Imo you should try to grow as a player or you won't get the most out of this game. At least not if completing hard content is what you wanna do. Or what is it that you want exactly?

and yet. here we are. i cannot achieve it. I have tried (I have 2 of each class, one magika and stam so i HAVE tried practicing various rotations on my sor,c including the infamous one bar rotation). i cannot. i don't have dexterity. i don't touch type and looking down at your keyboard constantly slows you down considerably. i have aim issues and no matter how much i play or practice - i continue to have aim issues on moving targets. the timing to get weaving while actualy hitting abilities quickly - eludes me. i can either weave very slowly which makes for crap dps, or mess up rotation - which makes for crap dps. and i'm actualy not even remotely the worst player you'll ever meet, in fact, i'm more or less in the middle of the pack, becasue i actualy bother to follow mechanics of the fights and not stand in bad as well as look up and adopt builds etc.

that you met noobs who got much better with practice does not change the fact that for most people its STILL inaccessible

also... having to spend good lor how much time? to fail 400 times before you finally get something? for some people that's what makes it fun, for the rest of us? its THE DEFINITION OF A NIGHTMARE. and herein lays a problem. if the game requires this kind of dedication to "git gud"? Skill gap and dps gap will CONTINUE to increase

P.S. there are very few things in life I'm willing to fail that much before i succeed. i can count them on one hand in fact. NONE of them are in any way shape or form have anything to do with video games. why? becasue video games are a hobby. not a vocation. not a job or a career. not my calling. a hobby

as for what i want? I want majority of the game to stay at the exact difficulty it is right now. I'm not the one complaining that its too easy, asking for the difficulty to be increased. i'm the one who wants it to stay where it is.

If you think something is inaccessible because it takes you too much effort (e.g. 400 tries) you are not devoted enough. Which is okay. But why not offer players, who have that devotion and see this more as sports than a hobby, proper content with proper gratification? And it's not like the gear from the hardest content is actually that much better than their 2nd class counterparts. Why is that such an issue for some? Why is the skill gap even an issue? Is normal difficulty too easy for you and vet too hard? Because that's basically the only valid point I can see here. I wanna clear everything but I don't wanna train hard for it is not a valid point.

IwakuraLain42 · May 2018

It's not that Zenimax isn't aware of the problem but all their attempts to fix this have failed miserably so far (remember the "raising the floor, lowering the ceiling" from last year ?). This year's attempt by buffing Light Attacks will not make it better as it will buff players even more so that are perfect with weaving.
And contrary to what some people are claiming weaving is actually hard because you have effectively coordinate skills every 0.5 seconds and that on a tight schedule. Factor in the fact that the majority of the player base can't use a mouse with its digital button and instead have to use a controller with its big analog trigger and it gets ever harder to weave.

I've tried for year to get weaving working with my stamblade and I simply can't get weaving to work. So instead of getting even more frustrated with the crappy way dps are working in this game I have chosen the alternative to 'git gud': 'gtfo' ....
This is mostly because I can feel the same as Turelus described it so perfectly, I'm feeling locked out of any of content I could play before or any of the newer content.
Luckily there are still other MMORPGs out there that don't require this split-second gameplay.

Bigevilpeter · May 2018

There is no gap there are many players who range dps between 20k and 40k. Those are the serious players but not the elite players. Actually 20k dps is pretty easy with any class and its enough to do most content.

But the game needs to differentiate skills and effort put otherwise it would demotivating.

Already golding gear now gives very little dps and purple gear is so easy to get.

Uviryth · May 2018

Weisstag wrote: »

If you are one pc just send me a message here on forums and ill get you to 35k+ dps in 1 hour...iam not joking its actually really easy to get there...getting 45k+ actually requires skill but 35k-ish is doable by anyone

Without Animation Canceling and LightAttackweaving?
Even better challenge, without Dots?

nnargun · May 2018

Uviryth wrote: »

Weisstag wrote: »

If you are one pc just send me a message here on forums and ill get you to 35k+ dps in 1 hour...iam not joking its actually really easy to get there...getting 45k+ actually requires skill but 35k-ish is doable by anyone

Without Animation Canceling and LightAttackweaving?
Even better challenge, without Dots?

Do you want to afk combat or what? No sympathy for this kind of whining.

Darkenarlol · May 2018

Sounds like jelly lazy scrub mentality to me -

i don't want to put an effort ( cuz it's a game bruh!! argument), don't want to l2p

but the guys who actually put effort in their builds, gear and mastering class and rotation

just make me feel so baaaad mommy! Gimme those l33t numbers while i'm AFK'ing on my sofa or

NERF them all ... because REASONS!

Do you rant about guys who have better houses and cars IRL because they work harder than you?

It is simple as that - if you have a goal ( let's say big numbers) then go for it instead of whining

if your goal is baiting rant - oh... go on then it is internet after all

Linaleah · May 2018

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

so today, my character died in couple of seconds, becasue I was stuck on that stupid crown store add thing, and loaded into a delve where a trash mob next to me kill me, while I was loading in and trying to escape out of the damn thing. but sure... no resistance. not in my experience.

anyways, to OP, contrary to some of the claims in this thread, weaving is absolutely crucial. gear makes a difference but not nearly as much difference as perfect tight rotation with weaving.

and as long as this game doesn't feature global cooldown and does feature animation canceling via weaving? dps disparity will only keep growing.

because. yeah.. this game is heavily reliant on skill. too bad that for most people that degree of skill is completely out of their reach. reducing skill cap will make the game less fun to people at the top, while still not bridging the gap completely.

I honestly don't have a solution other then bringing back some approximation of veteran zones for higher skill players. I have no solution for veteran dungeons being inaccessible for most people.

Oh come on. Reaching high DPS on MagSorc really isn't that hard. It's a five skill rotation with only 3 LAs and 2 HAs. Train that for 2 hours straight and you will reach >30k dps easy. Don't wanna train? Don't wanna achieve then. Anybody who doesn't have severe pain in their fingers can learn that. I have met complete noobs who got flawless conquerer two months after I met them. You gotta practice. Git gud gets really old but it's just too true. And as someone above said, don't start with hardest rotation in the game and get discouraged.
When I first cleared vMA it was one of the strongest feelings I've had in my life. I was literally shaking for minutes. Would it have touched me as much if it had taken me only 10 instead of 400 tries? Almost the same great feeling when I got flawless 20 clears later. Imo you should try to grow as a player or you won't get the most out of this game. At least not if completing hard content is what you wanna do. Or what is it that you want exactly?

and yet. here we are. i cannot achieve it. I have tried (I have 2 of each class, one magika and stam so i HAVE tried practicing various rotations on my sor,c including the infamous one bar rotation). i cannot. i don't have dexterity. i don't touch type and looking down at your keyboard constantly slows you down considerably. i have aim issues and no matter how much i play or practice - i continue to have aim issues on moving targets. the timing to get weaving while actualy hitting abilities quickly - eludes me. i can either weave very slowly which makes for crap dps, or mess up rotation - which makes for crap dps. and i'm actualy not even remotely the worst player you'll ever meet, in fact, i'm more or less in the middle of the pack, becasue i actualy bother to follow mechanics of the fights and not stand in bad as well as look up and adopt builds etc.

that you met noobs who got much better with practice does not change the fact that for most people its STILL inaccessible

also... having to spend good lor how much time? to fail 400 times before you finally get something? for some people that's what makes it fun, for the rest of us? its THE DEFINITION OF A NIGHTMARE. and herein lays a problem. if the game requires this kind of dedication to "git gud"? Skill gap and dps gap will CONTINUE to increase

P.S. there are very few things in life I'm willing to fail that much before i succeed. i can count them on one hand in fact. NONE of them are in any way shape or form have anything to do with video games. why? becasue video games are a hobby. not a vocation. not a job or a career. not my calling. a hobby

as for what i want? I want majority of the game to stay at the exact difficulty it is right now. I'm not the one complaining that its too easy, asking for the difficulty to be increased. i'm the one who wants it to stay where it is.

If you think something is inaccessible because it takes you too much effort (e.g. 400 tries) you are not devoted enough. Which is okay. But why not offer players, who have that devotion and see this more as sports than a hobby, proper content with proper gratification? And it's not like the gear from the hardest content is actually that much better than their 2nd class counterparts. Why is that such an issue for some? Why is the skill gap even an issue? Is normal difficulty too easy for you and vet too hard? Because that's basically the only valid point I can see here. I wanna clear everything but I don't wanna train hard for it is not a valid point.

400 tries IS too much effort for what amounts to a hobby most people take up in what little free time they have, especialy since MMO's are time consuming as it is.

the problem here is not the people who casually play the game. the problem is the people for whom the game is too easy and who want it to be harder. they wont OVERWORLD content that's just right for the rest of us - to be harder, becasue its too easy and therfore boring for them. they want to FORCE the "get gud" and the skill/dps gap gbrought on by the way this game's combat is structured? is THE number one reason for that.

the only solution is separate zones.

and no, normal difficulty is not too easy for me. its actualy just right. I'm pretty happy with where normal difficulty is and I'm even happier that i can relax and make it easier by out gearing/ out CPing it. i don't want changes. I'm responding to the conundrum that we find ourselves in. where ZoS has to progressively make the veteran/HM content harder and harder, just to keep it challenging, thus irreversibly locking out the rest of the population out if it. meanwhile, they cannot make regular over-world content harder, becasue - again the rest of the population. and we find ourselves in a situation where there is a group of players for whom most things are too easy, group of people for whom the HM difficulty is just too hard, while the rest of the content is STILl too easy and the group of people for whom the rest of the content is actualy designed.. and for whom harder difficulties are completely inaccessible. and there is no way to balance it because nature of ESO combat BY DESIGN. creates and widens this gap.

skill game and dps gap is an issue becasue it aside from splitting up population even further, it makes this game impossible to properly balance.

Massive_Stain · May 2018

So people need to hit 35k to 45k solo in order to do vet dlc trials. Because the bosses health ranges from 50mil to 100mil. You don't want to be in there all night...

Uviryth · May 2018

nnargun wrote: »

Uviryth wrote: »

Weisstag wrote: »

If you are one pc just send me a message here on forums and ill get you to 35k+ dps in 1 hour...iam not joking its actually really easy to get there...getting 45k+ actually requires skill but 35k-ish is doable by anyone

Without Animation Canceling and LightAttackweaving?
Even better challenge, without Dots?

Do you want to afk combat or what? No sympathy for this kind of whining.

Allright, Attackweaving would be okay without animation canceling. LAweaving only sucks because of animation canceling.

PS: And no, I dont say that because I dont know how. I can actually pull around 40k with a stamina-DPS. But I always feel really dirty while doing it. Even my character looks like he is having a guiltridden seizure.

Asardes · May 2018

I don't think it should take 400 tries to do anything that is skill related. I was a total newbie, since I had only played tank to that point and still cleared it easily once I got the hang of it. And it didn't take months or years. I was able to progress to Voriak on my Stamina DK in PvP gear on my 1st attempt, which took about 6 hours since a probably well meaning guild mate said I should "burn down the boss and ignore the mechanics" in round 6 and lost probably around 3 hours just wiping over and over in execute phase, then realized I didn't have enough DPS to burst it, did the mechanics and cleared it. By the time I got to the last boss I was so tired, and I realized I didn't have the burst, abandoned the run and deleted the quest, came back on my Sorcerer and cleared it in 1.5 hours from one end to the other. I mean if you run vMA maybe two dozen times you start knowing all the spawn points, and drop DoTs on them and by the time the mob spawns it's half dead already.

I had my rough times in there, mostly due to bad builds and general inexperience on other classes I brought in after that, I died a lot but few of my runs were more than 2 hour long, with one stretching to almost 4 hours simply because I was stubborn and tried to beat all the bosses on a stamina NB, on 1st run on that class, using Power Extration for brutality instead of potions; once I gave in and used potions both Runa and Voriak died faster due to damage from Rending Slashes and I was able to clear in a couple of attempts. It's mind boggling how people can attempt it that many time and learn nothing, do nothing to correct their mistakes, despite countless guides on the Internet, some exhaustively detailed, and then come and rage here and accuse ZoS it "caters to elitists". Next thing even using food and assigning CP in a way that makes sense will become a mark of elitism

zaria · May 2018

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself. For instance, squeezing one more HA+skill into my rotation and missing out on some uptime of my DOTs never crossed my mind but when I was told to do so it ultimately gave me like +5k DPS. At least. And I couldn't find that in any guide either (though there may have been one on the forums or what not).

Oh and another thing: Forget about animation cancelling completely. It's absolutely uselss in PVE except for for swap cancelling which you do unwillingly anyways while performing a proper rotation.

Also when testing DPS improvements do it on the target dummy, not trash fights, not boss fights, target dummy. And don't forget that anyone who performs a serious DPS test has major breach/fracture applied to the dummy which does a very big chunk of the DPS.

Remember back before Morrowind, i wanted to improve my magplar, was around cp230 at that time and used an one bar rotation, sweeps, shard and wall of elements was basic, did around 11k dps single target, golden weapon, LA cancel+sweep, structured Entropy and ele drain took me to 15.
Now I tried an complex bis two bar rotation, 16k and yes i used an macro for it so not a lot of slack, better against groups but I lost out so much using sweep less it was no improvement. found that spamming dark flare with structured Entropy and ele drain up, also with inner light on bar gave me 18k, started to heal.

nnargun · May 2018

Asardes wrote: »

I don't think it should take 400 tries to do anything that is skill related. I was a total newbie, since I had only played tank to that point and still cleared it easily once I got the hang of it. And it didn't take months or years. I was able to progress to Voriak on my Stamina DK in PvP gear on my 1st attempt, which took about 6 hours since a probably well meaning guild mate said I should "burn down the boss and ignore the mechanics" in round 6 and lost probably around 3 hours just wiping over and over in execute phase, then realized I didn't have enough DPS to burst it, did the mechanics and cleared it. By the time I got to the last boss I was so tired, and I realized I didn't have the burst, abandoned the run and deleted the quest, came back on my Sorcerer and cleared it in 1.5 hours from one end to the other. I mean if you run vMA maybe two dozen times you start knowing all the spawn points, and drop DoTs on them and by the time the mob spawns it's half dead already.

I had my rough times in there, mostly due to bad builds and general inexperience on other classes I brought in after that, I died a lot but few of my runs were more than 2 hour long, with one stretching to almost 4 hours simply because I was stubborn and tried to beat all the bosses on a stamina NB, on 1st run on that class, using Power Extration for brutality instead of potions; once I gave in and used potions both Runa and Voriak died faster due to damage from Rending Slashes and I was able to clear in a couple of attempts. It's mind boggling how people can attempt it that many time and learn nothing, do nothing to correct their mistakes, despite countless guides on the Internet, some exhaustively detailed, and then come and rage here and accuse ZoS it "caters to elitists". Next thing even using food and assigning CP in a way that makes sense will become a mark of elitism

Good for you man. It does take others that number of tries. Especially at low CP with limited knowledge of game mechanics. Two complete stacks of soul gems pretty precisely. On around clear 20 I got flawless so I think I do learn from mistakes quite properly. And not everybody starts such attempts by readings/watching guides and what not. Some just jump in there and beat it on their own. Like an adventurer you know.
Now that I have more than double as many CP and much better understanding of the game I walk through that arena like a hot knife through butter. And what kind of nonsense is "I don't think it should take 400 tries to do anything that is skill related."? Please go and try it Gilliam-style with a bucket and a broom and show me how you do it in under 400 tries.

Vaoh · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

@Turelus If it’s a physical limitation, like light attack weaves annoying your hands or something, I highly recommend a Heavy Attack rotation. You can easily complete all content this way with the exception of a few Hard Mode trials.

I’m trying to be productive here btw. I really do recommend you do this if you haven’t yet given it a shot. Mag Sorc is likely the best choice.

mooslacker · May 2018

#3 - as an experienced MMO player with very little drive to be L33T, my own dps has wandered between 10k to 20k (as much as 40k in aoe trash situations, but everyone tells me that that doesn't count for ***) ...and I've actually spent some time reading guides and builds and whatnot...

One must really try hard to pull anything under 20K with mid range CP at this point if they're an experienced MMO player..

Turelus · May 2018

Vaoh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

Turelus If it’s a physical limitation, like light attack weaves annoying your hands or something, I highly recommend a Heavy Attack rotation. You can easily complete all content this way with the exception of a few Hard Mode trials.

I’m trying to be productive here btw. I really do recommend you do this if you haven’t yet given it a shot. Mag Sorc is likely the best choice.

I have and I understand I am the biggest problem in this (by not changing class/build) but it's just frustrating to no longer be able to do what I did in the past (even hard mode trials) because they embraced a combat system which isn't overly friendly to all.

Biggest reason I don't just change is because I've invested 4 years into my Nightblade and it's a lot to redo. Easier to complain on the forums.

If there is a good MagBlade heavy attack feel free to DM me a link though.

Vaoh · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

Turelus If it’s a physical limitation, like light attack weaves annoying your hands or something, I highly recommend a Heavy Attack rotation. You can easily complete all content this way with the exception of a few Hard Mode trials.

I’m trying to be productive here btw. I really do recommend you do this if you haven’t yet given it a shot. Mag Sorc is likely the best choice.

I have and I understand I am the biggest problem in this (by not changing class/build) but it's just frustrating to no longer be able to do what I did in the past (even hard mode trials) because they embraced a combat system which isn't overly friendly to all.

Biggest reason I don't just change is because I've invested 4 years into my Nightblade and it's a lot to redo. Easier to complain on the forums.
If there is a good MagBlade heavy attack feel free to DM me a link though.

NB benefits probably more than other classes from Light attacks

With that said I still don’t see why it wouldn’t be doable. Especially now with Staves counting as two set pieces, Damage should be high enough.

Ofc Sorc would still pull better numbers, but as a NB it shouldn’t feel too bad.

ilikepickles · May 2018

Given how few people exist at that top tier, the best business strategy would be to completely ignore that upper 2%.
The elites aren't as important as they'd like you to believe.

visionality · May 2018

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself.

I absolutely agree. Did just that - watching a friend at a training dummy because he struggled with his dps - and it took exactly 5 minute to see his mistakes, make him change two skills and give him a bit of training. Et voila - his dps went from 18k to 25k. Some days later he consistently hit 30k on the dummy.

I also highly recommend using combat metrics if you want to improve your dps. Just look at the fight report windows after a training round. were your buffs consistently up? Which skills did most damage? Can you change some skills for others which either perform better or give you additional buffs or lower your costs? Also read the description of your passive skills and analyze whether the setup of your skill bars is really making best use of them.

Turelus · May 2018

ilikepickles wrote: »

Given how few people exist at that top tier, the best business strategy would be to completely ignore that upper 2%.
The elites aren't as important as they'd like you to believe.

I don't think they should be ignored, but we shouldn't aim to balance content around them.

Vaoh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

Turelus If it’s a physical limitation, like light attack weaves annoying your hands or something, I highly recommend a Heavy Attack rotation. You can easily complete all content this way with the exception of a few Hard Mode trials.

I’m trying to be productive here btw. I really do recommend you do this if you haven’t yet given it a shot. Mag Sorc is likely the best choice.

I have and I understand I am the biggest problem in this (by not changing class/build) but it's just frustrating to no longer be able to do what I did in the past (even hard mode trials) because they embraced a combat system which isn't overly friendly to all.

Biggest reason I don't just change is because I've invested 4 years into my Nightblade and it's a lot to redo. Easier to complain on the forums.
If there is a good MagBlade heavy attack feel free to DM me a link though.

NB benefits probably more than other classes from Light attacks With that said I still don’t see why it wouldn’t be doable. Especially now with Staves counting as two set pieces, Damage should be high enough.

Ofc Sorc would still pull better numbers, but as a NB it shouldn’t feel too bad.

Yup. As I said previously though when I joined the game there was nothing to say that light attack weave was a required mechanic to play a Nightblade DD, but now we're at this point I am too invested to want to change (unless Necromancer).

Kuwhar · May 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

There are several easy ways to bridge the gap:

1. Allow players to disable CP without paying 3000g + having to reallocate all their points every time they want to do it
2. Create normal and vet modes of all instanced content (delves, public dungeons, and solo quests); this is as easy as just cranking up mob damage, health, and resistance to something you would find in a normal group dungeon, for example

Also, OP, 10-20k DPS is more than enough to clear overland content with a blindfold on. I will often times just spam light attacks as I run through a quest. That's how weak overland mobs are. That isn't the result of some "DPS gap". In fact, you can probably kill every delve boss in the game by just light attacking.

Speaking for myself, I don't expect punishing difficulty from overland content. I just want some resistance from enemies.

Here is me fighting some trash mobs. It takes 2 mobs nearly one whole minute to kill me. I'm not healing, mitigating, blocking, or dodging. I'm just standing in front of them. Then I dispatch of them with 2 hits from a spammable ability. No weaving or animation cancelling was used. Gear was all crafted/bought from traders (no end game trials/dungeon gear). The noobiest player in the game can achieve these results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6FFj68_BBc

A better test would include:

1. Not fighting 2 braindead enemies, try a couple humanoids
2. Not wearing gold CP160 gear

Take a lvl 25 in normal grade light armor, maybe a couple blue pieces, and you'll get much different results.

srfrogg23 · May 2018

phermitgb wrote: »

so, for the longest time, I've wondered...I have no data to support my suspicion, just a semi-logical chain of thought...

Fact - #1 - many, many people complain that ESO overland content (quest bosses, delves, world bosses, even most basic dungeons) are too easy (it's a FACT that many people complain - whether or not it is or isn't is more debateable)
#2 - top tier dps often quotes dps ranges between 45k dps and 65k dps...
#3 - as an experienced MMO player with very little drive to be L33T, my own dps has wandered between 10k to 20k (as much as 40k in aoe trash situations, but everyone tells me that that doesn't count for ***) ...and I've actually spent some time reading guides and builds and whatnot...

The above three are mostly factual, in that these are things people have actually CLAIMED, or that I have personally experienced (not facts in that they represent ALL ESO players or anything like that)

question #1 - if the above are TRUE, then wouldn't that mean that the divide between "casual" players, with lets say a generous dps ceiling of somewhere between 10-15k dps, and L33T players, with averages of 45k to 65k, is...well...TITANIC?

Now, if we assume that the above is anywhere *near* true, then the people creating content for the game, have to create content that is at least REASONABLY accessible to players at the 15k dps range, while trying to create content that is anywhere near challenging for players at the 45k and upwards dps range?

if it were me...I'm just sayin'...then, I'm not sure that the HUGE gap between top-tier players and casual players could possibly be bridged in any reliable way by any single amount of content...

which means you suddenly have the dev team essentially creating content for 2 populations of the MMO game (in this case, ESO) - 1, creating content that's accessible but still moderately fun for people in the 10k-20k dps range, and then a second..."version"...of the game for the relatively niche group of players at the 40K+ range.

Isn't that...A BAD WAY TO BUILD AN MMO?...I mean, doesn't it really...skew...development resources in a really, really bad direction? You essentially have to build content for 2 populations within your MMO, and one of those populations represents a fairly small fraction of your population...

so, the radical question I pose, becomes...wouldn't ESO, overall, as a total game, be far, FAR better off - healthier, more fun for everyone - if they found a way to significantly lower the gap between upper dps and lower dps, so that casual players were still doing 10-15k dps (or less in some cases ) and upper tiers were still only doing 30k-ish dps? I mean, wouldn't we ALL have a more challenging game if they balanced outgoing damage factors so that there was ONLY roughly a 100% gap between lower tier dps and upper tier dps, instead of 400% or more?

and I say "more fun for everyone" in the sense that massive super-high dps'ers STILL, to this very day, complain about the game being too easy. I mean, once you've jacked your DPS up to 60k, do you really have any right to complain that the game is too easy? Didn't you DELIBERATELY SET OUT TO MAKE THE GAME TOO EASY?...

*sigh*...point is, and I'm serious about this - wouldn't ESO as a whole, be better served by dropping the gap between the borderline crazy compulsive dps min-maxers, and the casual population? I'm not kidding - wouldn't even the super dps'ers be more satisfied by a higher degree of moment-to-moment challenge, if we narrowed down the range of features and synergies the min-maxers had to up their damage.

what if every synergy between armor and skill yielded only 100 extra dps instead of 1000? Would the min-maxers stop min-maxing? of course not. Many of them would *** up and down the street, but they wouldn't stop min-maxing. they'd eke out every last 10 dps they could find, and that would be okay, because the gap between the casuals and the ultra-elite of the min maxers would still only be about 15k dps...which means the min maxers would still get to enjoy the benefits of wasting everything twice as fast as the filthy care-bear casuals while still having at least a modicum of a challenge, while the same content would be more or less accessible to the casuals, they'd just have to fight harder, longer, and with a greater degree of precision.

seriously...wouldn't that be better? Honest question...

It’s a really good way to build an MMO. There’s no rule that says a person has to stay locked into any arbitrary category like “hardcore” or “casual”. People end up where they end up on that spectrum based on their personal level of interest and motivation, and it is subject to change.

That being said, it’s good to have the widest variety of content types possible. Contrary to popular belief, players don’t create the content, but instead they’re attracted to the game based on what is already available.

Games that cater to a single play style or try to pigeonhole players into a certain content type tend to fail, miserably, in the MMO market. The gap in content difficulty is a good thing because it creates a broader spectrum of content types to attract more players.

Vaoh · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

ilikepickles wrote: »

Given how few people exist at that top tier, the best business strategy would be to completely ignore that upper 2%.
The elites aren't as important as they'd like you to believe.

I don't think they should be ignored, but we shouldn't aim to balance content around them.

Vaoh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

Turelus If it’s a physical limitation, like light attack weaves annoying your hands or something, I highly recommend a Heavy Attack rotation. You can easily complete all content this way with the exception of a few Hard Mode trials.

I’m trying to be productive here btw. I really do recommend you do this if you haven’t yet given it a shot. Mag Sorc is likely the best choice.

I have and I understand I am the biggest problem in this (by not changing class/build) but it's just frustrating to no longer be able to do what I did in the past (even hard mode trials) because they embraced a combat system which isn't overly friendly to all.

Biggest reason I don't just change is because I've invested 4 years into my Nightblade and it's a lot to redo. Easier to complain on the forums.
If there is a good MagBlade heavy attack feel free to DM me a link though.

NB benefits probably more than other classes from Light attacks With that said I still don’t see why it wouldn’t be doable. Especially now with Staves counting as two set pieces, Damage should be high enough.

Ofc Sorc would still pull better numbers, but as a NB it shouldn’t feel too bad.

Yup. As I said previously though when I joined the game there was nothing to say that light attack weave was a required mechanic to play a Nightblade DD, but now we're at this point I am too invested to want to change (unless Necromancer).

Well that’s something we can both agree on. I really don’t like the focus on light attacks as of late. They’ve become far too important in raw damage and encouraged via sets, skill passive benefits, enchant buffs, etc. Not only would you lose like 25% or more of your DPS for not light attacking, but you’d also lose out on the capability of even using a lot of high-end sets or specific skills. In the end, the DPS loss for not perfectly weaving is much higher than in the past.

Kikke · May 2018

I can logg on my stamina sorc

I can craft hunding body, grab any monster set in my bank. Buy? spriggan from a guild trader . Go do 40k dps on a dummy.

I can logg on my magica sorc

I can craft julianos, grab any monster set in my bank. buy? stygian from a guild trader. Go do 35k+ dps on a dummy.

I dont need any special gear, I dont need any trial spesific gear. DPS in ESO is 99% Rotation and buff/debuff tracking.

And that! ANYONE can learn.

Raraaku · May 2018

I'm a firm believer in ZOS introducing a weaving segment in the opening tutorial, particularly since it seems that they are embracing the concept and it's essential now for DPS in end-game content. Yet another reason why I prefer support/tank roles in group activities, particularly in ESO.

Personally I don't like relying on a mechanic that's not even mentioned within the game in order to be proficient enough to do veteran trials and such. ZOS needs to either start including tutorials and tips introducing weaving to newer players, or they need to start finding ways to implement mechanics for those who either don't like, or cannot efficiently perform, weaving in order to provide another avenue to be a proficient DPS in trials.

nnargun · May 2018

Kuwhar wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

There are several easy ways to bridge the gap:

1. Allow players to disable CP without paying 3000g + having to reallocate all their points every time they want to do it
2. Create normal and vet modes of all instanced content (delves, public dungeons, and solo quests); this is as easy as just cranking up mob damage, health, and resistance to something you would find in a normal group dungeon, for example

Also, OP, 10-20k DPS is more than enough to clear overland content with a blindfold on. I will often times just spam light attacks as I run through a quest. That's how weak overland mobs are. That isn't the result of some "DPS gap". In fact, you can probably kill every delve boss in the game by just light attacking.

Speaking for myself, I don't expect punishing difficulty from overland content. I just want some resistance from enemies.

Here is me fighting some trash mobs. It takes 2 mobs nearly one whole minute to kill me. I'm not healing, mitigating, blocking, or dodging. I'm just standing in front of them. Then I dispatch of them with 2 hits from a spammable ability. No weaving or animation cancelling was used. Gear was all crafted/bought from traders (no end game trials/dungeon gear). The noobiest player in the game can achieve these results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6FFj68_BBc

A better test would include:

1. Not fighting 2 braindead enemies, try a couple humanoids
2. Not wearing gold CP160 gear

Take a lvl 25 in normal grade light armor, maybe a couple blue pieces, and you'll get much different results.

^This. I also used to be pro harder overland content as it's really boring for me. But since one of my colleagues started ESO, who is generally less of a gamer, I have changed my mind. He has lots of challenge and progression on his way to lvl 50 and enjoys it very much. Had to tell him how to use DoTs in a rotation to get past the quest he was at at lvl 32. It's cool and fun to discover all those things for the first time and grow with your toon. If overland was any harder many less experienced players would turn their back to ESO before even finishing the main quest I think.

Gallagher563 · May 2018

Not sure anyone mentioned this but champion points are one of the reason for the large dps spread over time. If champion points were removed (or replaced with perks such as in Skyrim) this would have a larger effect on the higher dps players. High dps players tend to have more CP points in general and understand where to place their points to maximize their dps so removing CP would have less effect on the casual player who basically randomly places their points. Also reverting to pre Morrowind sustain would benefit lower dps players more than high dps players because high dps players are already more efficient and weave better to maximize sustain (aka nightblades).