PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer Balance
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ezio45✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.Edited by DDuke on May 16, 2018 12:16AM3 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This entire thread feels heavily devoted to PvP, has anyone else been doing magSorc DPS testing? So far all of my caster parses are showing sorcs to be relatively lackluster only outperforming magPlars. I haven’t done a lot of testing with pets but the caster is quite disappointing.
im starting to get around 30k with my non pet sorc, it might be an easy rotation but it doesnt hit hard until you really get execute on point and have gold gear, even then i think most sorcs are faking dps tests, i font see them pulling 40k
"Faking"
I've been messing around with some off meta setups on PTS. this was Wiil power, asylum staff, lich and ilambris.
The light attack buff has really opened up some options for running sustain sets and making up for the dps loss by not heavy attacking. at all.
note, this really was just messing around. You get better results with julianos and elemental weapon, lich on the front bar.
alternatively I got some decent results with julianos, burning spell weave and 2 infused spell cost reduction jewellery.
I have to say it's REALLY fun not heavy attacking. Light attacks are so strong now compared to heavies that it's really opened up some options for build strategies.
Also, no execute there at all.
Just saying.Edited by Tannus15 on May 16, 2018 12:25AM0 -
Nicko_Lps✭✭✭✭✭This entire thread feels heavily devoted to PvP, has anyone else been doing magSorc DPS testing? So far all of my caster parses are showing sorcs to be relatively lackluster only outperforming magPlars. I haven’t done a lot of testing with pets but the caster is quite disappointing.
im starting to get around 30k with my non pet sorc, it might be an easy rotation but it doesnt hit hard until you really get execute on point and have gold gear, even then i think most sorcs are faking dps tests, i font see them pulling 40k
"Faking"
I've been messing around with some off meta setups on PTS. this was Wiil power, asylum staff, lich and ilambris.
The light attack buff has really opened up some options for running sustain sets and making up for the dps loss by not heavy attacking. at all.
note, this really was just messing around. You get better results with julianos and elemental weapon, lich on the front bar.
alternatively I got some decent results with julianos, burning spell weave and 2 infused spell cost reduction jewellery.
I have to say it's REALLY fun not heavy attacking. Light attacks are so strong now compared to heavies that it's really opened up some options for build strategies.
Also, no execute there at all.
Just saying.
You wont go far as a dps while wearing lich set..
Try siroria + nerfed acuity + ilambris/zaan(melee scenarios)
With zan you can pull around 42k on a 6mil dummy without bloodthirsty,with ilambris around 40k or less.(no off balance+exploiter)
Replace shooting star with atro,replace crushing shock with ele wep and use recovery food.
Im sure there are better setups from this ive mentioned above,did not spent enough time on magsorc to test all sets from a few tests ive made the above was the best.
Sorc is probably the weakest magica dps in summerset,at least from what ive seen.0 -
Nicko_Lps✭✭✭✭✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.6 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rune cage have a tooltip between 7.5k (proc build) and 8.5k (max stats sustainable build).
Stop exagerating the tooltip, it doesn't make your argument better when everyone know the true value on the tooltip.
Is rune cage too good in PTS ? Yes.
Is rune cage damage should be doubled and put into a 8s dot ? Yes.
Is ZoS will listening to the 90% of people agreed about that ? Probably No.
Is ZoS the worst company when you need to bring PvP class and gear balancen ? Hello sload (stackable is a problem), Hello shieldbreaker, Hello Zaan, Hello non defile on most magicka class. Hello the strongest shield being wrecked in 2s by a sword and board tank with his spammable. Yeah, they are the worst.5 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.
I'm not a big fan of Incap either, but atleast it's dodgeable/blockable & doesn't have 28m range.
For the record, the damage of Incap->Relentless is still far less than a sorc's Rune Cage combo.
5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena
81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration
2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398
2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737
12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760
14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496
4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391
5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw
73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration
2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105
2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149
10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329
12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183
6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284
You see, sorc burst is comparable with Incap->Relentless (which isn't guaranteed to land) even before you add the ultimate to the mix.
Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354
...and the NB burst is peanuts in comparison.
Could add in Force Pulse as well (after the cage->frag) as technically (and based on duels I've had on sorc) it's almost impossible to break free+dodge in time.
It's true that NBs need a lot less "setup" for their burst, but the maximum burst available to them is much less than what sorcs have - which is exactly why they're so easy (too easy imo) to play efficiently, but aren't really overpowered vs good players atleast when it comes to burst.Edited by DDuke on May 16, 2018 1:18PM4 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.
I'm not a big fan of Incap either, but atleast it's dodgeable/blockable & doesn't have 28m range.
For the record, the damage of Incap->Relentless is still far less than a sorc's Rune Cage combo.
5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena
81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration
2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398
2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737
12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760
14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496
4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391
5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw
73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration
2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105
2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149
10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329
12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183
6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284
You see, sorc burst is comparable with Incap->Relentless (which isn't guaranteed to land) even before you add the ultimate to the mix.
Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354
...and the NB burst is peanuts in comparison.
Could add in Force Pulse as well (after the cage->frag) as technically (and based on duels I've had on sorc) it's almost impossible to break free+dodge in time.
It's true that NBs need a lot less "setup" for their burst, but the maximum burst available to them is much less than what sorcs have - which is exactly why they're so easy (too easy imo) to play efficiently, but aren't really overpowered vs good players atleast when it comes to burst.
This is wrong number, please stop making misinformation.
A 16k curse and a 20k frag is not something you can run on a sustainable sorc.
Here are the true number for 45k magicka and 2740 spell damage and 9.5k penetration which is very decent damage and sustainable set-up.
Curse : 14k
Frag : 17.8k
Rune cage: 8.1k
Meteor : 19.5k
So, nightblade have better damage.
Really stop posting on this topic if you wring false number.
Take a viable set-up, then come speak here.
Also, you have far too much magicka penetration on your build. In everyway, the NB damage is better.
Taking a max damage possible set up on a sorc with no magicka sustain and no max stamina + no stamina sustain isn't something viable.
Also, you didn't made the crit damage, where the NB will have even more damage, not even speaking about making a crit on 4 attack is far easier than on 5, without even considering shadowy disguise making guaranted crit.
You also took a set-up on the sorc with elemental drain and minor force, something that's extremely hard to fit in a openworld sustainable set-up.
Also, you forgot spell resistance is almost always better than physical resistance.Edited by Aedaryl on May 16, 2018 2:03PM4 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.
I'm not a big fan of Incap either, but atleast it's dodgeable/blockable & doesn't have 28m range.
For the record, the damage of Incap->Relentless is still far less than a sorc's Rune Cage combo.
5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena
81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration
2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398
2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737
12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760
14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496
4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391
5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw
73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration
2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105
2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149
10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329
12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183
6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284
You see, sorc burst is comparable with Incap->Relentless (which isn't guaranteed to land) even before you add the ultimate to the mix.
Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354
...and the NB burst is peanuts in comparison.
Could add in Force Pulse as well (after the cage->frag) as technically (and based on duels I've had on sorc) it's almost impossible to break free+dodge in time.
It's true that NBs need a lot less "setup" for their burst, but the maximum burst available to them is much less than what sorcs have - which is exactly why they're so easy (too easy imo) to play efficiently, but aren't really overpowered vs good players atleast when it comes to burst.
This is wrong number, please stop making misinformation.
A 16k curse and a 20k frag is not something you can run on a sustainable sorc.
Here are the true number for 45k magicka and 2740 spell damage and 9.5k penetration which is very decent damage and sustainable set-up.
Curse : 14k
Frag : 17.8k
Rune cage: 8.1k
Meteor : 19.5k
So, nightblade have better damage.
Really stop posting on this topic if you wring false number.
Take a viable set-up, then come speak here.
Also, you have far too much magicka penetration on your build. In everyway, the NB damage is better.
Taking a max damage possible set up on a sorc with no magicka sustain and no max magicka + no stamina sustain isn't something viable.
Oh ***, sorry I forgot to use your potato numbers in order to have a valid, acceptable argument.
Meanwhile the stamblade in the very sustainable 5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh+1x Kena still deals less burst even with your numbers.
14 000+17 800+ 8100 + 19 500=59 400
59 400>54 284
...and that is without even counting light attacks & weapon glyph (I don't know your numbers for those).
As a sidenote, I often hear people repeat the "that is not sustainable" mantra regardless of which class is being talked about. Just stop.
"Sustain" is only a matter of how much light/heavy attacks you want to make & whether you prefer a fast paced or slow paced playstyle.
Believe it or not, even that stamblade setup I linked above with 1,2k stam regen is "sustainable" if you play it properly, just like a shackle+necro sorc is.
My preferred sorc setup would be Caluurion+Necro+Zaan, which is even less sustain (and smaller shields) than the above one.Edited by DDuke on May 16, 2018 2:08PM2 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.
I'm not a big fan of Incap either, but atleast it's dodgeable/blockable & doesn't have 28m range.
For the record, the damage of Incap->Relentless is still far less than a sorc's Rune Cage combo.
5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena
81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration
2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398
2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737
12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760
14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496
4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391
5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw
73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration
2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105
2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149
10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329
12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183
6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284
You see, sorc burst is comparable with Incap->Relentless (which isn't guaranteed to land) even before you add the ultimate to the mix.
Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354
...and the NB burst is peanuts in comparison.
Could add in Force Pulse as well (after the cage->frag) as technically (and based on duels I've had on sorc) it's almost impossible to break free+dodge in time.
It's true that NBs need a lot less "setup" for their burst, but the maximum burst available to them is much less than what sorcs have - which is exactly why they're so easy (too easy imo) to play efficiently, but aren't really overpowered vs good players atleast when it comes to burst.
This is wrong number, please stop making misinformation.
A 16k curse and a 20k frag is not something you can run on a sustainable sorc.
Here are the true number for 45k magicka and 2740 spell damage and 9.5k penetration which is very decent damage and sustainable set-up.
Curse : 14k
Frag : 17.8k
Rune cage: 8.1k
Meteor : 19.5k
So, nightblade have better damage.
Really stop posting on this topic if you wring false number.
Take a viable set-up, then come speak here.
Also, you have far too much magicka penetration on your build. In everyway, the NB damage is better.
Taking a max damage possible set up on a sorc with no magicka sustain and no max magicka + no stamina sustain isn't something viable.
Oh ***, sorry I forgot to use your potato numbers in order to have a valid, acceptable argument.
Meanwhile the stamblade in the very sustainable 5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh+1x Kena still deals less burst even with your numbers.
14 000+17 800+ 8100 + 19 500=59 400
59 400>54 284
...and that is without even counting light attacks & weapon glyph (I don't know your numbers for those).
As a sidenote, I often hear people repeat the "that is not sustainable" mantra regardless of which class is being talked about. Just stop.
"Sustain" is only a matter of how much light/heavy attacks you want to make & whether you prefer a fast paced or slow paced playstyle.
Believe it or not, even that stamblade setup I linked above with 1,2k stam regen is "sustainable" if you play it properly, just like a shackle+necro sorc is.
My preferred sorc setup would be Caluurion+Necro+Zaan, which is even less sustain (and smaller shields) than the above one.
You’re comparing a nightblade with more stamina regen than the Sorc template has Magicka Regen. One guy called BS on you and he wasn’t wrong.
However you are 100% correct that Sorcs will have the highest burst damage combos in the game now. We didn’t ask for it, but some class needs to be on top, AND it’ll be someone else next patch. It’s been “nightblade” for so long you guys hardly have room to complain.
4 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.
I'm not a big fan of Incap either, but atleast it's dodgeable/blockable & doesn't have 28m range.
For the record, the damage of Incap->Relentless is still far less than a sorc's Rune Cage combo.
5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena
81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration
2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398
2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737
12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760
14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496
4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391
5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw
73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration
2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105
2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149
10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329
12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183
6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284
You see, sorc burst is comparable with Incap->Relentless (which isn't guaranteed to land) even before you add the ultimate to the mix.
Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354
...and the NB burst is peanuts in comparison.
Could add in Force Pulse as well (after the cage->frag) as technically (and based on duels I've had on sorc) it's almost impossible to break free+dodge in time.
It's true that NBs need a lot less "setup" for their burst, but the maximum burst available to them is much less than what sorcs have - which is exactly why they're so easy (too easy imo) to play efficiently, but aren't really overpowered vs good players atleast when it comes to burst.
This is wrong number, please stop making misinformation.
A 16k curse and a 20k frag is not something you can run on a sustainable sorc.
Here are the true number for 45k magicka and 2740 spell damage and 9.5k penetration which is very decent damage and sustainable set-up.
Curse : 14k
Frag : 17.8k
Rune cage: 8.1k
Meteor : 19.5k
So, nightblade have better damage.
Really stop posting on this topic if you wring false number.
Take a viable set-up, then come speak here.
Also, you have far too much magicka penetration on your build. In everyway, the NB damage is better.
Taking a max damage possible set up on a sorc with no magicka sustain and no max magicka + no stamina sustain isn't something viable.
Oh ***, sorry I forgot to use your potato numbers in order to have a valid, acceptable argument.
Meanwhile the stamblade in the very sustainable 5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh+1x Kena still deals less burst even with your numbers.
14 000+17 800+ 8100 + 19 500=59 400
59 400>54 284
...and that is without even counting light attacks & weapon glyph (I don't know your numbers for those).
As a sidenote, I often hear people repeat the "that is not sustainable" mantra regardless of which class is being talked about. Just stop.
"Sustain" is only a matter of how much light/heavy attacks you want to make & whether you prefer a fast paced or slow paced playstyle.
Believe it or not, even that stamblade setup I linked above with 1,2k stam regen is "sustainable" if you play it properly, just like a shackle+necro sorc is.
My preferred sorc setup would be Caluurion+Necro+Zaan, which is even less sustain (and smaller shields) than the above one.
The number you took is even more non representative because you took 5 pieces of Necropotence without shadowrend.
Meaning you took a build with 2 pets slotted + minor force skill + elemental drain + rune cage.
Not reaslistic at all.
Know, you took the set up with meteor for comparing the one with incap, lol again. Why you don't add the dot on the target the NB have that will tick ? Sorc have none. You also didn't took crit damage, which result in NB burst being far better than the sorc one.
You can turn it like you want, NB damage is better than sorc damage.
And for the viable sustain point.
If you don't understand the gamplay with a shield you need to cast every 2-3s in fight is more expensive than anything else in this game, I can do nothing for you.
If you don't understand our escape have a 50% punish cost each time we use it, then I can do nothing for you.
If you don't understand our magicka sustain is closely bound to our stamina sustain, then I can do nothing for you.
Every one is seeing how much the build you take a not even viable, and it's just hate you deserve on this thread.
Rune cage shoudn't go live as is it, but again, don't try to put false number with non viable set up with forgetting variable that doesn't go in your sense.1 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.
I'm not a big fan of Incap either, but atleast it's dodgeable/blockable & doesn't have 28m range.
For the record, the damage of Incap->Relentless is still far less than a sorc's Rune Cage combo.
5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena
81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration
2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398
2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737
12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760
14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496
4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391
5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw
73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration
2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105
2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149
10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329
12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183
6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284
You see, sorc burst is comparable with Incap->Relentless (which isn't guaranteed to land) even before you add the ultimate to the mix.
Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354
...and the NB burst is peanuts in comparison.
Could add in Force Pulse as well (after the cage->frag) as technically (and based on duels I've had on sorc) it's almost impossible to break free+dodge in time.
It's true that NBs need a lot less "setup" for their burst, but the maximum burst available to them is much less than what sorcs have - which is exactly why they're so easy (too easy imo) to play efficiently, but aren't really overpowered vs good players atleast when it comes to burst.
This is wrong number, please stop making misinformation.
A 16k curse and a 20k frag is not something you can run on a sustainable sorc.
Here are the true number for 45k magicka and 2740 spell damage and 9.5k penetration which is very decent damage and sustainable set-up.
Curse : 14k
Frag : 17.8k
Rune cage: 8.1k
Meteor : 19.5k
So, nightblade have better damage.
Really stop posting on this topic if you wring false number.
Take a viable set-up, then come speak here.
Also, you have far too much magicka penetration on your build. In everyway, the NB damage is better.
Taking a max damage possible set up on a sorc with no magicka sustain and no max magicka + no stamina sustain isn't something viable.
Oh ***, sorry I forgot to use your potato numbers in order to have a valid, acceptable argument.
Meanwhile the stamblade in the very sustainable 5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh+1x Kena still deals less burst even with your numbers.
14 000+17 800+ 8100 + 19 500=59 400
59 400>54 284
...and that is without even counting light attacks & weapon glyph (I don't know your numbers for those).
As a sidenote, I often hear people repeat the "that is not sustainable" mantra regardless of which class is being talked about. Just stop.
"Sustain" is only a matter of how much light/heavy attacks you want to make & whether you prefer a fast paced or slow paced playstyle.
Believe it or not, even that stamblade setup I linked above with 1,2k stam regen is "sustainable" if you play it properly, just like a shackle+necro sorc is.
My preferred sorc setup would be Caluurion+Necro+Zaan, which is even less sustain (and smaller shields) than the above one.
The number you took is even more non representative because you took 5 pieces of Necropotence without shadowrend.
Meaning you took a build with 2 pets slotted + minor force skill + elemental drain + rune cage.
Not reaslistic at all.
Know, you took the set up with meteor for comparing the one with incap, lol again. Why you don't add the dot on the target the NB have that will tick ? Sorc have none. You also didn't took crit damage, which result in NB burst being far better than the sorc one.
You can turn it like you want, NB damage is better than sorc damage.
And for the viable sustain point.
If you don't understand the gamplay with a shield you need to cast every 2-3s in fight is more expensive than anything else in this game, I can do nothing for you.
If you don't understand our escape have a 50% punish cost each time we use it, then I can do nothing for you.
If you don't understand our magicka sustain is closely bound to our stamina sustain, then I can do nothing for you.
Every one is seeing how much the build you take a not even viable, and it's just hate you deserve on this thread.
Rune cage shoudn't go live as is it, but again, don't try to put false number with non viable set up with forgetting variable that doesn't go in your sense.
So you want to say that his builds aren't viable in open world while petsorcs are?I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.4 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aaaaaand...a thousand posts. Without anything getting addressed. Remarkable.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.2 -
Bergzorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
The Fossilize root should not go unmentioned in this comparison. The need to roll dodge immediately after breaking free hurts hard on most magica specs.
I for my part am looking forward to the increased stun duration on defensive rune.no CP PvP PC/EU
EP Zergborn
DC Zerg Beacon
guild master, raid leader, janitor, and only member of Zergbored0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.
I'm not a big fan of Incap either, but atleast it's dodgeable/blockable & doesn't have 28m range.
For the record, the damage of Incap->Relentless is still far less than a sorc's Rune Cage combo.
5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena
81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration
2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398
2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737
12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760
14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496
4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391
5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw
73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration
2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105
2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149
10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329
12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183
6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284
You see, sorc burst is comparable with Incap->Relentless (which isn't guaranteed to land) even before you add the ultimate to the mix.
Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354
...and the NB burst is peanuts in comparison.
Could add in Force Pulse as well (after the cage->frag) as technically (and based on duels I've had on sorc) it's almost impossible to break free+dodge in time.
It's true that NBs need a lot less "setup" for their burst, but the maximum burst available to them is much less than what sorcs have - which is exactly why they're so easy (too easy imo) to play efficiently, but aren't really overpowered vs good players atleast when it comes to burst.
This is wrong number, please stop making misinformation.
A 16k curse and a 20k frag is not something you can run on a sustainable sorc.
Here are the true number for 45k magicka and 2740 spell damage and 9.5k penetration which is very decent damage and sustainable set-up.
Curse : 14k
Frag : 17.8k
Rune cage: 8.1k
Meteor : 19.5k
So, nightblade have better damage.
Really stop posting on this topic if you wring false number.
Take a viable set-up, then come speak here.
Also, you have far too much magicka penetration on your build. In everyway, the NB damage is better.
Taking a max damage possible set up on a sorc with no magicka sustain and no max magicka + no stamina sustain isn't something viable.
Oh ***, sorry I forgot to use your potato numbers in order to have a valid, acceptable argument.
Meanwhile the stamblade in the very sustainable 5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh+1x Kena still deals less burst even with your numbers.
14 000+17 800+ 8100 + 19 500=59 400
59 400>54 284
...and that is without even counting light attacks & weapon glyph (I don't know your numbers for those).
As a sidenote, I often hear people repeat the "that is not sustainable" mantra regardless of which class is being talked about. Just stop.
"Sustain" is only a matter of how much light/heavy attacks you want to make & whether you prefer a fast paced or slow paced playstyle.
Believe it or not, even that stamblade setup I linked above with 1,2k stam regen is "sustainable" if you play it properly, just like a shackle+necro sorc is.
My preferred sorc setup would be Caluurion+Necro+Zaan, which is even less sustain (and smaller shields) than the above one.
You’re comparing a nightblade with more stamina regen than the Sorc template has Magicka Regen. One guy called BS on you and he wasn’t wrong.
However you are 100% correct that Sorcs will have the highest burst damage combos in the game now. We didn’t ask for it, but some class needs to be on top, AND it’ll be someone else next patch. It’s been “nightblade” for so long you guys hardly have room to complain.
It's easy to call things *** without proving the contrary (or even attempting to).
Also, NB hasn't had the highest burst damage combo for ages, sorcs have higher burst on Live/PTS, Wardens have higher burst on Live/PTS & Templar has higher burst on Live/PTS.
What do these classes have in common? Delayed burst abilities, which is something NB lacks (unless you want to slot Shadow Silk from Undaunted skill line & bet on someone standing in that AoE after 5 seconds).
The one thing NBs have is burst that is easiest to deliver since it requires the least setup compared to other classes.
The maximum burst is nothing impressive.The number you took is even more non representative because you took 5 pieces of Necropotence without shadowrend.
Meaning you took a build with 2 pets slotted + minor force skill + elemental drain + rune cage.
Not reaslistic at all.
Actually one pet (I'd never slot Scamp and Rune Cage, having two overlapping CCs is excessive) and yes, you could replace Slimecraw with Shadowrend and possibly get some extra burst.
I also didn't count the twilight attacks btw, which add another 6k'ish (3k'ish in PvP) to burst.
Perfectly realistic to me.Know, you took the set up with meteor for comparing the one with incap, lol again. Why you don't add the dot on the target the NB have that will tick ? Sorc have none. You also didn't took crit damage, which result in NB burst being far better than the sorc one.
I didn't count crit damage because that varies depending on target's crit mitigation. Might amount to zero for all we know.
In the end you'll have to deduct target's mitigation+Battle Spirit from the burst & then apply crit dmg-crit mitigation.
But if you want to just add the 8% crit dmg difference the NB gets then it'd look like this:
NB: 53 391+81%=96 637
Sorc: 79 354+73%=137 282You can turn it like you want, NB damage is better than sorc damage.
I'd have to "turn it" quite a bit to get that result lmao.
Sorry, facts just aren't on your side in this.And for the viable sustain point.
If you don't understand the gamplay with a shield you need to cast every 2-3s in fight is more expensive than anything else in this game, I can do nothing for you.
Oh I do, perfectly well. No different from spamming dodge rolls/cloaks or any other spam oriented playstyle.
I'm not a big fan of those playstyles, which is why I try to make fights as short as possible and more "hit & run" style regardless of which class I'm playing. And so far it has worked. On every single class.If you don't understand our escape have a 50% punish cost each time we use it, then I can do nothing for you.
Yeah, and cloak (NB's escape/survivability) can be cast 3 times in a row before you're out of magicka, unless prevented from using it entirely (i.e. det pots, Piercing Mark).
That said, I'm still not a big fan of the 50% cost increase on Streak/BoL as the ability can be countered with a gap closer (or Sprint+Major Expedition).
Here's a little workaround for you if you're having trouble sustaining your escape on sorc: invisibility pots.
Streak gets you out of det pot range and no sane NB will ever put a Piercing Mark on a mSorc. Easypeasy.
Also slotting Dark Conversion or Meditate on off bar isn't a bad idea, as those combo perfectly with BoL.
You should probably also watch my video on restealthing, it's incredibly easy on a mSorc as there's no DoTs that would get you stuck in combat.If you don't understand our magicka sustain is closely bound to our stamina sustain, then I can do nothing for you.
Every one is seeing how much the build you take a not even viable, and it's just hate you deserve on this thread.
Lmao. You know how many times I've heard "your build isn't viable" from people with no imagination?
When I know something is viable, it is viable.
I had to listen to bs like that about heavy magplar in 2016 until I made my Fasallas Malubeth public & that bs quickly subsided. I had to listen to that bs with bowblade & had to prove people wrong with Asylum Bow. I had to listen to that about light armor destro/resto zero sustain mDK and again... people with zero imagination playing meta builds were proven wrong.
That said, going zero sustain sorc isn't even that creative - there's already top players running Necro+Caluurion+Zaan in noCP (even less sustain).
Simply put: you are wrong.Rune cage shoudn't go live as is it, but again, don't try to put false number with non viable set up with forgetting variable that doesn't go in your sense.
"False numbers" only to people who play popular meta builds & can't adapt their playstyle to fit a build that goes beyond their imagination/comprehension.Edited by DDuke on May 16, 2018 3:03PM2 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.
I'm not a big fan of Incap either, but atleast it's dodgeable/blockable & doesn't have 28m range.
For the record, the damage of Incap->Relentless is still far less than a sorc's Rune Cage combo.
5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena
81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration
2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398
2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737
12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760
14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496
4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391
5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw
73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration
2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105
2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149
10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329
12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183
6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284
You see, sorc burst is comparable with Incap->Relentless (which isn't guaranteed to land) even before you add the ultimate to the mix.
Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354
...and the NB burst is peanuts in comparison.
Could add in Force Pulse as well (after the cage->frag) as technically (and based on duels I've had on sorc) it's almost impossible to break free+dodge in time.
It's true that NBs need a lot less "setup" for their burst, but the maximum burst available to them is much less than what sorcs have - which is exactly why they're so easy (too easy imo) to play efficiently, but aren't really overpowered vs good players atleast when it comes to burst.
Why are you comparing a build using a DoT based proc set with a max stat pet build, even going so far as to use Ice Comet over Shooting Star?
Not going to enter a discussion about what's more realistical to counter, but those inflated numbers are really not helping your case.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.
I'm not a big fan of Incap either, but atleast it's dodgeable/blockable & doesn't have 28m range.
For the record, the damage of Incap->Relentless is still far less than a sorc's Rune Cage combo.
5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena
81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration
2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398
2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737
12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760
14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496
4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391
5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw
73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration
2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105
2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149
10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329
12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183
6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284
You see, sorc burst is comparable with Incap->Relentless (which isn't guaranteed to land) even before you add the ultimate to the mix.
Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354
...and the NB burst is peanuts in comparison.
Could add in Force Pulse as well (after the cage->frag) as technically (and based on duels I've had on sorc) it's almost impossible to break free+dodge in time.
It's true that NBs need a lot less "setup" for their burst, but the maximum burst available to them is much less than what sorcs have - which is exactly why they're so easy (too easy imo) to play efficiently, but aren't really overpowered vs good players atleast when it comes to burst.
Why are you comparing a build using a DoT based proc set with a max stat pet build, even going so far as to use Ice Comet over Shooting Star?
Not going to enter a discussion about what's more realistical to counter, but those inflated numbers are really not helping your case.
There's not many options for a medium open world stamblade - Sheer Venom is one of the better ones (you trade 42 weapon damage for a 800~ dmg/s DoT & don't need 5p on off bar).
The only other realistic option when it comes to max dmg is going for Truth, but based on extensive testing Sheer Venom works better.
Also, Ice Comet is more damage which really is the most important thing for these types of builds.
Being able to cast the ulti more often doesn't really matter when you're likely out of resources if you have to cast ulti twice to kill someone. Cheaper costs (including ulti costs) is more of a sustain build thing.Edited by DDuke on May 16, 2018 3:28PM1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As a sidenote, I often hear people repeat the "that is not sustainable" mantra regardless of which class is being talked about. Just stop.
"Sustain" is only a matter of how much light/heavy attacks you want to make & whether you prefer a fast paced or slow paced playstyle.
From my experience this is simply false unless you rely on 100% harness/heavyattack sustain and play turtle from burst to burst - that´s for dueling.
If you play open world low sustain on sorc stops working (much more than on other classes) because of the limitations of shields against multiple opponents creating the neccessity to streak.
I haven´t seen low sustain builds on sorc since morrowind hit for open world play.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »Streak CC was made blockable the same patch Curse was made UNblockable.
I always told salty forumblades that they got the long end of the stick with that change, as Curse hit you anyway after you got stunned. But, you know, THOSE guys. Now everyone is upset about a stun that goes through block and dodge, and deals damage - just like Streak back then.
*facepalm*
I swear, sorc haters have absolutely no clue about the class and just sputter nonsense.
Are you being serious right now? “Sorc haters” lmfao, even the actual sorc players agree that rune cage is op on the pts.
Let's see how it plays out on live before we give an OP tag to something.
I have been using rune cage ever since the skill existed. What I don't get is how an extra 8k tooltip makes you a god mode sorc or I m missing something here.
The combo already kills medium / light armor targets without needing the 8k tooltip with a meteor of course. Now I don't know if 8k is enough to kill without an ultimate. If it is then I see what you are saying.
On live the combo also kills if you land a Caluurion proc with it (no need for Meteor), what this patch does is it practically guarantees a "Caluurion proc" worth of damage with the Rune Cage.
Meaning you're not dependent on RNG or ulti* to score free kills on non-tank builds anymore.
*Thanks to the visual/audio cues, meteor can actually be cloak->blocked as stamblade (if there's no det pot from sorc) to prevent Cage, a stamplar can cleanse Curse & any other debuff beforehand, a stam warden can Shimmering Shield & a stam DK can put wings up to atleast reflect the light attack part of the damage. Stam sorc is f'd.
Caluurion tooltip on my sorc is more than 15k on my sorc.PhoenixGrey wrote: »Streak CC was made blockable the same patch Curse was made UNblockable.
I always told salty forumblades that they got the long end of the stick with that change, as Curse hit you anyway after you got stunned. But, you know, THOSE guys. Now everyone is upset about a stun that goes through block and dodge, and deals damage - just like Streak back then.
*facepalm*
I swear, sorc haters have absolutely no clue about the class and just sputter nonsense.
Are you being serious right now? “Sorc haters” lmfao, even the actual sorc players agree that rune cage is op on the pts.
Let's see how it plays out on live before we give an OP tag to something.
I have been using rune cage ever since the skill existed. What I don't get is how an extra 8k tooltip makes you a god mode sorc or I m missing something here.
The combo already kills medium / light armor targets without needing the 8k tooltip with a meteor of course. Now I don't know if 8k is enough to kill without an ultimate. If it is then I see what you are saying.
On live the combo also kills if you land a Caluurion proc with it (no need for Meteor), what this patch does is it practically guarantees a "Caluurion proc" worth of damage with the Rune Cage.
Meaning you're not dependent on RNG or ulti* to score free kills on non-tank builds anymore.
*Thanks to the visual/audio cues, meteor can actually be cloak->blocked as stamblade (if there's no det pot from sorc) to prevent Cage, a stamplar can cleanse Curse & any other debuff beforehand, a stam warden can Shimmering Shield & a stam DK can put wings up to atleast reflect the light attack part of the damage. Stam sorc is f'd.
Stam Sorc can use Ball of Lightning right after the Meteor is casted, taking away the opportunity to land a projectile (frags) while they're in Rune Cage.
Yeah, I tried that a few times over the 5+ hours I spent dueling with a medium armor stam sorc (with no tank bs like Impregnable or Brass) yesterday - doesn't really work out that well as the skill has that crazy delay before the effect goes off.
Practically the only times I could kill a mag sorc on a medium stam one were when the sorc messed up shields & got literally one shot by 5k wpn dmg DBOS before he could combo me.
One can crit, the other can't.
You can also get the disease proc with Caluurion which means around 16k damage tooltip, not 19,4k (or 20k+ like I have with Minor Berserk).
Sure, even after counting crits & unlucky disease procs Caluurion will still deal 2-3k more tooltip damage - but it's comparable enough in practice (hence why I wrote practically).
This is exactly why I said I would like to see how it plays out on live before trying to call OP or not. It atleast looks like the entire combo might besaw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.
I'm not a big fan of Incap either, but atleast it's dodgeable/blockable & doesn't have 28m range.
For the record, the damage of Incap->Relentless is still far less than a sorc's Rune Cage combo.
5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena
81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration
2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398
2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737
12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760
14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496
4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391
5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw
73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration
2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105
2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149
10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329
12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183
6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284
You see, sorc burst is comparable with Incap->Relentless (which isn't guaranteed to land) even before you add the ultimate to the mix.
Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354
...and the NB burst is peanuts in comparison.
Could add in Force Pulse as well (after the cage->frag) as technically (and based on duels I've had on sorc) it's almost impossible to break free+dodge in time.
It's true that NBs need a lot less "setup" for their burst, but the maximum burst available to them is much less than what sorcs have - which is exactly why they're so easy (too easy imo) to play efficiently, but aren't really overpowered vs good players atleast when it comes to burst.
It's impossible to sustain in that mag sorc setup so those numbers are meaningless.
They get even more meaningless if you think the setup is viable based on a duel0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭As a sidenote, I often hear people repeat the "that is not sustainable" mantra regardless of which class is being talked about. Just stop.
"Sustain" is only a matter of how much light/heavy attacks you want to make & whether you prefer a fast paced or slow paced playstyle.
From my experience this is simply false unless you rely on 100% harness/heavyattack sustain and play turtle from burst to burst - that´s for dueling.
If you play open world low sustain on sorc stops working (much more than on other classes) because of the limitations of shields against multiple opponents creating the neccessity to streak.
I haven´t seen low sustain builds on sorc since morrowind hit for open world play.
Never said it's easy, you need to utilize LOS effectively to 1vX vs bigger numbers on a low sustain build that doesn't have cloak.
Let me assure you, it's still easier on a sorc than on a low sustain destro/resto light armor mDK. Atleast sorc can buy time with Streak & kite the Incap execute spammers.
In 1vX the whole idea is to get rid of people before sustain becomes an issue and that is what high dmg builds can do if played properly (they can also delete even skilled players in 1vX, which is part of the appeal).0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.
I'm not a big fan of Incap either, but atleast it's dodgeable/blockable & doesn't have 28m range.
For the record, the damage of Incap->Relentless is still far less than a sorc's Rune Cage combo.
5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena
81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration
2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398
2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737
12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760
14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496
4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391
5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw
73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration
2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105
2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149
10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329
12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183
6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284
You see, sorc burst is comparable with Incap->Relentless (which isn't guaranteed to land) even before you add the ultimate to the mix.
Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354
...and the NB burst is peanuts in comparison.
Could add in Force Pulse as well (after the cage->frag) as technically (and based on duels I've had on sorc) it's almost impossible to break free+dodge in time.
It's true that NBs need a lot less "setup" for their burst, but the maximum burst available to them is much less than what sorcs have - which is exactly why they're so easy (too easy imo) to play efficiently, but aren't really overpowered vs good players atleast when it comes to burst.
Why are you comparing a build using a DoT based proc set with a max stat pet build, even going so far as to use Ice Comet over Shooting Star?
Not going to enter a discussion about what's more realistical to counter, but those inflated numbers are really not helping your case.
There's not many options for a medium open world stamblade - Sheer Venom is one of the better ones (you trade 42 weapon damage for a 800~ dmg/s DoT & don't need 5p on off bar).
The only other realistic option when it comes to max dmg is going for Truth, but based on extensive testing Sheer Venom works better.
Also, Ice Comet is more damage which really is the most important thing for these types of builds.
Being able to cast the ulti more often doesn't really matter when you're likely out of resources if you have to cast ulti twice to kill someone. Cheaper costs (including ulti costs) is more of a sustain build thing.
That's why many people don't agree with your numbers. Gimping your sustain too much to get them.
Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As a sidenote, I often hear people repeat the "that is not sustainable" mantra regardless of which class is being talked about. Just stop.
"Sustain" is only a matter of how much light/heavy attacks you want to make & whether you prefer a fast paced or slow paced playstyle.
From my experience this is simply false unless you rely on 100% harness/heavyattack sustain and play turtle from burst to burst - that´s for dueling.
If you play open world low sustain on sorc stops working (much more than on other classes) because of the limitations of shields against multiple opponents creating the neccessity to streak.
I haven´t seen low sustain builds on sorc since morrowind hit for open world play.
Never said it's easy, you need to utilize LOS effectively to 1vX vs bigger numbers on a low sustain build that doesn't have cloak.
Let me assure you, it's still easier on a sorc than on a low sustain destro/resto light armor mDK. Atleast sorc can buy time with Streak & kite the Incap execute spammers.
In 1vX the whole idea is to get rid of people before sustain becomes an issue and that is what high dmg builds can do if played properly (they can also delete even skilled players in 1vX, which is part of the appeal).
I´ve played it on sorc, DK and magblade (without cloak) this patch.
I find it hardest on sorc bc the class is least suited for it due to heavily telegraphed burst allowing for easiest counterplay.
Also NB and DK combine defense and offense on most of their important skills instead of having strict division as sorc has.
It´s much easier to burst a target with chains => leap // incap => will in 1vX than it is on sorc with cage combos that generally take 4+ attacks to work.
You could say sorc is not globalcooldown efficient when trying to burst + defend against multiple people compared to other classes.Edited by Derra on May 16, 2018 3:44PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.
I'm not a big fan of Incap either, but atleast it's dodgeable/blockable & doesn't have 28m range.
For the record, the damage of Incap->Relentless is still far less than a sorc's Rune Cage combo.
5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena
81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration
2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398
2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737
12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760
14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496
4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391
5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw
73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration
2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105
2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149
10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329
12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183
6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284
You see, sorc burst is comparable with Incap->Relentless (which isn't guaranteed to land) even before you add the ultimate to the mix.
Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354
...and the NB burst is peanuts in comparison.
Could add in Force Pulse as well (after the cage->frag) as technically (and based on duels I've had on sorc) it's almost impossible to break free+dodge in time.
It's true that NBs need a lot less "setup" for their burst, but the maximum burst available to them is much less than what sorcs have - which is exactly why they're so easy (too easy imo) to play efficiently, but aren't really overpowered vs good players atleast when it comes to burst.
Why are you comparing a build using a DoT based proc set with a max stat pet build, even going so far as to use Ice Comet over Shooting Star?
Not going to enter a discussion about what's more realistical to counter, but those inflated numbers are really not helping your case.
There's not many options for a medium open world stamblade - Sheer Venom is one of the better ones (you trade 42 weapon damage for a 800~ dmg/s DoT & don't need 5p on off bar).
The only other realistic option when it comes to max dmg is going for Truth, but based on extensive testing Sheer Venom works better.
Also, Ice Comet is more damage which really is the most important thing for these types of builds.
Being able to cast the ulti more often doesn't really matter when you're likely out of resources if you have to cast ulti twice to kill someone. Cheaper costs (including ulti costs) is more of a sustain build thing.
That's why many people don't agree with your numbers. Gimping your sustain too much to get them.
And I don't agree with those people.
I don't think infinite resources without any effort & defensive mechanics that vastly outperform offensive ones should exist, that leads to gameplay where fights become about boring your opponents to death rather than fast paced exciting gameplay high dmg builds offer.
But I digress. The stamblade build I linked is also minimum sustain (even less all things considered than the sorc build).
A typical rollerblade with Eternal Hunt, Bone Pirate/whatnot has maybe half the damage of the above example.1 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.
I'm not a big fan of Incap either, but atleast it's dodgeable/blockable & doesn't have 28m range.
For the record, the damage of Incap->Relentless is still far less than a sorc's Rune Cage combo.
5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena
81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration
2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398
2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737
12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760
14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496
4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391
5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw
73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration
2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105
2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149
10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329
12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183
6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284
You see, sorc burst is comparable with Incap->Relentless (which isn't guaranteed to land) even before you add the ultimate to the mix.
Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354
...and the NB burst is peanuts in comparison.
Could add in Force Pulse as well (after the cage->frag) as technically (and based on duels I've had on sorc) it's almost impossible to break free+dodge in time.
It's true that NBs need a lot less "setup" for their burst, but the maximum burst available to them is much less than what sorcs have - which is exactly why they're so easy (too easy imo) to play efficiently, but aren't really overpowered vs good players atleast when it comes to burst.
Why are you comparing a build using a DoT based proc set with a max stat pet build, even going so far as to use Ice Comet over Shooting Star?
Not going to enter a discussion about what's more realistical to counter, but those inflated numbers are really not helping your case.
There's not many options for a medium open world stamblade - Sheer Venom is one of the better ones (you trade 42 weapon damage for a 800~ dmg/s DoT & don't need 5p on off bar).
The only other realistic option when it comes to max dmg is going for Truth, but based on extensive testing Sheer Venom works better.
Also, Ice Comet is more damage which really is the most important thing for these types of builds.
Being able to cast the ulti more often doesn't really matter when you're likely out of resources if you have to cast ulti twice to kill someone. Cheaper costs (including ulti costs) is more of a sustain build thing.
That's why many people don't agree with your numbers. Gimping your sustain too much to get them.
And I don't agree with those people.
I don't think infinite resources without any effort & defensive mechanics that vastly outperform offensive ones should exist, that leads to gameplay where fights become about boring your opponents to death rather than fast paced exciting gameplay high dmg builds offer.
But I digress. The stamblade build I linked is also minimum sustain (even less all things considered than the sorc build).
A typical rollerblade with Eternal Hunt, Bone Pirate/whatnot has maybe half the damage of the above example.
I agree with your sentiment about defensive/sustain out-performing..
But the point is, though, that its a minority of people who think and build that way - especially on a traditionally non-stealthy-ganky class. Its a little disingenuous to keep using numbers that the vast majority of players of said class won't have to make a point.Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't think infinite resources without any effort & defensive mechanics that vastly outperform offensive ones should exist, that leads to gameplay where fights become about boring your opponents to death rather than fast paced exciting gameplay high dmg builds offer.
But what are those defensive mechanics that outperform offensive ones?
The only ones really coming to mind are dodge, cloak and with a large number of attackers block.
Edit: Cloak being arguable bc it´s only the case against dot builds with dots already applied.Edited by Derra on May 16, 2018 3:49PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?
I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off
The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).
The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:- Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
- Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip
Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).
It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.
Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.
I'm not a big fan of Incap either, but atleast it's dodgeable/blockable & doesn't have 28m range.
For the record, the damage of Incap->Relentless is still far less than a sorc's Rune Cage combo.
5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena
81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration
2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398
2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737
12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760
14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496
4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391
5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw
73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration
2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105
2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149
10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329
12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183
6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284
You see, sorc burst is comparable with Incap->Relentless (which isn't guaranteed to land) even before you add the ultimate to the mix.
Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070
4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354
...and the NB burst is peanuts in comparison.
Could add in Force Pulse as well (after the cage->frag) as technically (and based on duels I've had on sorc) it's almost impossible to break free+dodge in time.
It's true that NBs need a lot less "setup" for their burst, but the maximum burst available to them is much less than what sorcs have - which is exactly why they're so easy (too easy imo) to play efficiently, but aren't really overpowered vs good players atleast when it comes to burst.
Why are you comparing a build using a DoT based proc set with a max stat pet build, even going so far as to use Ice Comet over Shooting Star?
Not going to enter a discussion about what's more realistical to counter, but those inflated numbers are really not helping your case.
There's not many options for a medium open world stamblade - Sheer Venom is one of the better ones (you trade 42 weapon damage for a 800~ dmg/s DoT & don't need 5p on off bar).
The only other realistic option when it comes to max dmg is going for Truth, but based on extensive testing Sheer Venom works better.
Also, Ice Comet is more damage which really is the most important thing for these types of builds.
Being able to cast the ulti more often doesn't really matter when you're likely out of resources if you have to cast ulti twice to kill someone. Cheaper costs (including ulti costs) is more of a sustain build thing.
That's why many people don't agree with your numbers. Gimping your sustain too much to get them.
And I don't agree with those people.
I don't think infinite resources without any effort & defensive mechanics that vastly outperform offensive ones should exist, that leads to gameplay where fights become about boring your opponents to death rather than fast paced exciting gameplay high dmg builds offer.
But I digress. The stamblade build I linked is also minimum sustain (even less all things considered than the sorc build).
A typical rollerblade with Eternal Hunt, Bone Pirate/whatnot has maybe half the damage of the above example.
I agree with your sentiment about defensive/sustain out-performing..
But the point is, though, that its a minority of people who think and build that way - especially on a traditionally non-stealthy-ganky class. Its a little disingenuous to keep using numbers that the vast majority of players of said class won't have to make a point.
I don't see it as disingenuous to use the numbers I'd have on the builds I play - if those builds work then those numbers work as well. That's how I see it.
Anyway, I can come back with some "meta numbers" as well, which sorc build should I compare the "amazing" meta Eternal Hunt+Shacklebreaker+Troll King/whatever burst with?
5x Eternal Hunt 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Troll King
81% crit dmg
6663 penetration
2298 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=3469
2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3648
11 011 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=15 855
12 960 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 662+20%(Incap)=22 394
3469+3648+15 855+22 394=45 366 (and awful penetration)
^
and that's being generous by atleast getting weapon dmg on jewelry btw, which is not usually the case with these builds.0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It doesn’t matter that much which burst is higher in numbers. What matters is the available counterplay. NB had the advantage there by a country mile. We’re going to see if Rune Cage will change that.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I don't think infinite resources without any effort & defensive mechanics that vastly outperform offensive ones should exist, that leads to gameplay where fights become about boring your opponents to death rather than fast paced exciting gameplay high dmg builds offer.
But what are those defensive mechanics that outperform offensive ones?
The only ones really coming to mind are dodge, cloak and with a large number of attackers block.
Edit: Cloak being arguable bc it´s only the case against dot builds with dots already applied.
All of them?
If you look at the tooltips, they're significantly stronger on defensive abilities than offensive ones.
For instance, I'd like to see you get through a sorc spamming shields. Even high dmg combos like Asylum Snipe fail to even get through Hardened+Harness.
A destro/resto mDK can also easily live through anything (well, things like Meteor+Cage might require the use of wings next patch...) with proper CP allocation & just Healing Ward spam.
Then there's all these *** heavy armor tanks with ridiculous amounts of mitigation & 7k wpn dmg with procs which lets them outheal all damage with just Vigor/Rally & you're lucky to even get them to 50% health (with their 30k+ health pools) unless they mess up big time.
There's no question defensive abilities outperform offensive ones - they have done so since the beta of this game.
Sorc shields actually used to be even worse before Battle Spirit in case you don't remember.Edited by DDuke on May 16, 2018 4:17PM1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't think infinite resources without any effort & defensive mechanics that vastly outperform offensive ones should exist, that leads to gameplay where fights become about boring your opponents to death rather than fast paced exciting gameplay high dmg builds offer.
But what are those defensive mechanics that outperform offensive ones?
The only ones really coming to mind are dodge, cloak and with a large number of attackers block.
Edit: Cloak being arguable bc it´s only the case against dot builds with dots already applied.
All of them?
If you look at the tooltips, they're significantly stronger on defensive abilities than offensive ones.
For instance, I'd like to see you get through a sorc spamming shields. Even high dmg combos like Asylum Snipe fail to even get through Hardened+Harness.
A destro/resto mDK can also easily live through anything (well, things like Meteor+Cage might require the use of wings next patch...) with proper CP allocation & just Healing Ward spam.
Then there's all these *** heavy armor tanks with ridiculous amounts of mitigation & 7k wpn dmg with procs which lets them outheal all damage with just Vigor/Rally & you're lucky to even get them to 50% health (with their 30k+ health pools) unless they mess up big time.
There's no question defensive abilities outperform offensive ones - they have done so since the beta of this game.
Sorc shields actually used to be even worse before Battle Spirit in case you don't remember.
That´s because you´re only looking at burst or comparing on a gcd for gcd basis.
But when looking at the whole toolkit of atleast magblade, magplar and magDK they´re costefficient vs virtually all defenses.
Outside of harness even sorc is costefficient vs hardened only.
I can´t tell for warden admittedly and stamblade is about the only class that´s barely or not costefficient vs defenses - which is due to their frontloaded bursty nature.
When looking a complete offensive toolkits vs defensive ones offense wins in most cases.
Excluding harness i have to say i disagree with the defense outperforming offense statement - atleast for the classes i regularly play.
Edit: I forget defensive ultimates. I hate those.Edited by Derra on May 16, 2018 4:40PM<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500
