PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer Balance

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't think infinite resources without any effort & defensive mechanics that vastly outperform offensive ones should exist, that leads to gameplay where fights become about boring your opponents to death rather than fast paced exciting gameplay high dmg builds offer.

But what are those defensive mechanics that outperform offensive ones?
The only ones really coming to mind are dodge, cloak and with a large number of attackers block.

Edit: Cloak being arguable bc it´s only the case against dot builds with dots already applied.

All of them?

If you look at the tooltips, they're significantly stronger on defensive abilities than offensive ones.

For instance, I'd like to see you get through a sorc spamming shields. Even high dmg combos like Asylum Snipe fail to even get through Hardened+Harness.

A destro/resto mDK can also easily live through anything (well, things like Meteor+Cage might require the use of wings next patch...) with proper CP allocation & just Healing Ward spam.

Then there's all these *** heavy armor tanks with ridiculous amounts of mitigation & 7k wpn dmg with procs which lets them outheal all damage with just Vigor/Rally & you're lucky to even get them to 50% health (with their 30k+ health pools) unless they mess up big time.

There's no question defensive abilities outperform offensive ones - they have done so since the beta of this game.

Sorc shields actually used to be even worse before Battle Spirit in case you don't remember.

That´s because you´re only looking at burst or comparing on a gcd for gcd basis.

But when looking at the whole toolkit of atleast magblade, magplar and magDK they´re costefficient vs virtually all defenses.
Outside of harness even sorc is costefficient vs hardened only.
I can´t tell for warden admittedly and stamblade is about the only class that´s barely or not costefficient vs defenses - which is due to their frontloaded bursty nature.

When looking a complete offensive toolkits vs defensive ones offense wins in most cases.

Right, and that is why average 1v1 duel duration is 15-20 minutes between two equally skilled meta sustain builds?

Or why you can have 15 random pugs throwing skills at you when you play a heavy armor/S&B tank and never drop below 80% health?

The only way to really kill people in this game is to one shot them when their defenses are down - which is why Rune Cage is so abusive since it gives sorcs the tools to disable these defensive tools for dodge roll builds while those dodge roll builds can't really do the same to sorcs.


If offensive skills really outperformed defensive ones, then everyone would be on a timer in fights. You'd be slowly dropping towards zero health, not bouncing between 0-50% (after burst) & then going straight back up to 100% until the opponent's ulti is up again.

That is not the case, and it's not like the other resource pools are going down either with infinite sustain people are able to achieve, which leads us to the current state of ESO PvP: one shot or ResidentSleeper.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Right, and that is why average 1v1 duel duration is 15-20 minutes between two equally skilled meta sustain builds?

That´s a faulty argument though.
People don´t build to sustain their offense but to sustain their defense - because defense IS more expensive than offense.

The issue you have is that the game lets you build for infinite defensive sustain - not that def is overperforming on a cost/heal or abosorb ratio.
Sustain stats compared to offensive ones are (which is imo a pve problem ironically).

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Right, and that is why average 1v1 duel duration is 15-20 minutes between two equally skilled meta sustain builds?

That´s a faulty argument though.
People don´t build to sustain their offense but to sustain their defense - because defense IS more expensive than offense.

The issue you have is that the game lets you build for infinite defensive sustain - not that def is overperforming on a cost/heal or abosorb ratio.
Sustain stats compared to offensive ones are (which is imo a pve problem ironically).

I didn't say anything about the cost of defensive skills. The cost of abilities is irrelevant due to people building for infinite sustain.

When it comes to the potency of these abilities (which is what affects the duration of fights) defensive ones do outperform offensive ones.

It could of course also be solved by making spamming defensive abilities unsustainable for everyone as well, that's the alternative solution to the issue that has persisted since the beta of this game. I'm under no illusion ZOS will ever actually change that, except by maybe giving only certain classes (or item sets) abilities that let them bypass defensive mechanics.

Minalan

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't think infinite resources without any effort & defensive mechanics that vastly outperform offensive ones should exist, that leads to gameplay where fights become about boring your opponents to death rather than fast paced exciting gameplay high dmg builds offer.

But what are those defensive mechanics that outperform offensive ones?
The only ones really coming to mind are dodge, cloak and with a large number of attackers block.

Edit: Cloak being arguable bc it´s only the case against dot builds with dots already applied.

All of them?

If you look at the tooltips, they're significantly stronger on defensive abilities than offensive ones.

For instance, I'd like to see you get through a sorc spamming shields. Even high dmg combos like Asylum Snipe fail to even get through Hardened+Harness.

A destro/resto mDK can also easily live through anything (well, things like Meteor+Cage might require the use of wings next patch...) with proper CP allocation & just Healing Ward spam.

Then there's all these *** heavy armor tanks with ridiculous amounts of mitigation & 7k wpn dmg with procs which lets them outheal all damage with just Vigor/Rally & you're lucky to even get them to 50% health (with their 30k+ health pools) unless they mess up big time.

There's no question defensive abilities outperform offensive ones - they have done so since the beta of this game.

Sorc shields actually used to be even worse before Battle Spirit in case you don't remember.

That´s because you´re only looking at burst or comparing on a gcd for gcd basis.

But when looking at the whole toolkit of atleast magblade, magplar and magDK they´re costefficient vs virtually all defenses.
Outside of harness even sorc is costefficient vs hardened only.
I can´t tell for warden admittedly and stamblade is about the only class that´s barely or not costefficient vs defenses - which is due to their frontloaded bursty nature.

When looking a complete offensive toolkits vs defensive ones offense wins in most cases.

Right, and that is why average 1v1 duel duration is 15-20 minutes between two equally skilled meta sustain builds?

Or why you can have 15 random pugs throwing skills at you when you play a heavy armor/S&B tank and never drop below 80% health?

The only way to really kill people in this game is to one shot them when their defenses are down - which is why Rune Cage is so abusive since it gives sorcs the tools to disable these defensive tools for dodge roll builds while those dodge roll builds can't really do the same to sorcs.


If offensive skills really outperformed defensive ones, then everyone would be on a timer in fights. You'd be slowly dropping towards zero health, not bouncing between 0-50% (after burst) & then going straight back up to 100% until the opponent's ulti is up again.

That is not the case, and it's not like the other resource pools are going down either with infinite sustain people are able to achieve, which leads us to the current state of ESO PvP: one shot or ResidentSleeper.

I sort of get DDuke’s argument. He’s saying that a YOLO build works next patch because the new rune cage guarantees the kill.

On live that doesn’t work because people just dodge roll, reflect, shield, cloak, or block your burst, then you’re OOM and SOL.

The only thing that breaks DDuke’s build now (other than spellshield, shimmering, and scales) is simple: an immovable pot and the immovable skill. That build likely won’t survive nearly 11-16 seconds of heavy pressure from a heavy armor stam warden in the face.

A ‘sustain’ Sorc can however, which is why most of us add a little stamina regen and more Magicka Regen on a template. If done right, you’re only losing 10–12% burst damage in exchange for a LOT more survivability.

Biro123

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't think infinite resources without any effort & defensive mechanics that vastly outperform offensive ones should exist, that leads to gameplay where fights become about boring your opponents to death rather than fast paced exciting gameplay high dmg builds offer.

But what are those defensive mechanics that outperform offensive ones?
The only ones really coming to mind are dodge, cloak and with a large number of attackers block.

Edit: Cloak being arguable bc it´s only the case against dot builds with dots already applied.

All of them?

If you look at the tooltips, they're significantly stronger on defensive abilities than offensive ones.

For instance, I'd like to see you get through a sorc spamming shields. Even high dmg combos like Asylum Snipe fail to even get through Hardened+Harness.

A destro/resto mDK can also easily live through anything (well, things like Meteor+Cage might require the use of wings next patch...) with proper CP allocation & just Healing Ward spam.

Then there's all these *** heavy armor tanks with ridiculous amounts of mitigation & 7k wpn dmg with procs which lets them outheal all damage with just Vigor/Rally & you're lucky to even get them to 50% health (with their 30k+ health pools) unless they mess up big time.

There's no question defensive abilities outperform offensive ones - they have done so since the beta of this game.

Sorc shields actually used to be even worse before Battle Spirit in case you don't remember.

That´s because you´re only looking at burst or comparing on a gcd for gcd basis.

But when looking at the whole toolkit of atleast magblade, magplar and magDK they´re costefficient vs virtually all defenses.
Outside of harness even sorc is costefficient vs hardened only.
I can´t tell for warden admittedly and stamblade is about the only class that´s barely or not costefficient vs defenses - which is due to their frontloaded bursty nature.

When looking a complete offensive toolkits vs defensive ones offense wins in most cases.

Right, and that is why average 1v1 duel duration is 15-20 minutes between two equally skilled meta sustain builds?

Or why you can have 15 random pugs throwing skills at you when you play a heavy armor/S&B tank and never drop below 80% health?

The only way to really kill people in this game is to one shot them when their defenses are down - which is why Rune Cage is so abusive since it gives sorcs the tools to disable these defensive tools for dodge roll builds while those dodge roll builds can't really do the same to sorcs.


If offensive skills really outperformed defensive ones, then everyone would be on a timer in fights. You'd be slowly dropping towards zero health, not bouncing between 0-50% (after burst) & then going straight back up to 100% until the opponent's ulti is up again.

That is not the case, and it's not like the other resource pools are going down either with infinite sustain people are able to achieve, which leads us to the current state of ESO PvP: one shot or ResidentSleeper.

I sort of get DDuke’s argument. He’s saying that a YOLO build works next patch because the new rune cage guarantees the kill.

On live that doesn’t work because people just dodge roll, reflect, shield, cloak, or block your burst, then you’re OOM and SOL.

The only thing that breaks DDuke’s build now (other than spellshield, shimmering, and scales) is simple: an immovable pot and the immovable skill. That build likely won’t survive nearly 11-16 seconds of heavy pressure from a heavy armor stam warden in the face.

A ‘sustain’ Sorc can however, which is why most of us add a little stamina regen and more Magicka Regen on a template. If done right, you’re only losing 10–12% burst damage in exchange for a LOT more survivability.

Not just that. I've played dw for a long time now, and with runecage since dragonbones. So many time your burst prep gets killed by having to break free from incoming c.c, having to re-shield or die, or someone else granting the target c.c immunity at the wrong time, or even part of it hitting a different target. Not to mention how you can sometimes go for ages waiting for that frag proc..
You're basically fishing for that perfect burst, which can often take so long to get that even with the cage change, it's a huge, huge risk to skip sustain.

Mayrael

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't think infinite resources without any effort & defensive mechanics that vastly outperform offensive ones should exist, that leads to gameplay where fights become about boring your opponents to death rather than fast paced exciting gameplay high dmg builds offer.

But what are those defensive mechanics that outperform offensive ones?
The only ones really coming to mind are dodge, cloak and with a large number of attackers block.

Edit: Cloak being arguable bc it´s only the case against dot builds with dots already applied.

All of them?

If you look at the tooltips, they're significantly stronger on defensive abilities than offensive ones.

For instance, I'd like to see you get through a sorc spamming shields. Even high dmg combos like Asylum Snipe fail to even get through Hardened+Harness.

A destro/resto mDK can also easily live through anything (well, things like Meteor+Cage might require the use of wings next patch...) with proper CP allocation & just Healing Ward spam.

Then there's all these *** heavy armor tanks with ridiculous amounts of mitigation & 7k wpn dmg with procs which lets them outheal all damage with just Vigor/Rally & you're lucky to even get them to 50% health (with their 30k+ health pools) unless they mess up big time.

There's no question defensive abilities outperform offensive ones - they have done so since the beta of this game.

Sorc shields actually used to be even worse before Battle Spirit in case you don't remember.

That´s because you´re only looking at burst or comparing on a gcd for gcd basis.

But when looking at the whole toolkit of atleast magblade, magplar and magDK they´re costefficient vs virtually all defenses.
Outside of harness even sorc is costefficient vs hardened only.
I can´t tell for warden admittedly and stamblade is about the only class that´s barely or not costefficient vs defenses - which is due to their frontloaded bursty nature.

When looking a complete offensive toolkits vs defensive ones offense wins in most cases.

Right, and that is why average 1v1 duel duration is 15-20 minutes between two equally skilled meta sustain builds?

1.Or why you can have 15 random pugs throwing skills at you when you play a heavy armor/S&B tank and never drop below 80% health?

The only way to really kill people in this game is to one shot them when their defenses are down - 2. which is why Rune Cage is so abusive since it gives sorcs the tools to disable these defensive tools for dodge roll builds while those dodge roll builds can't really do the same to sorcs.


3. If offensive skills really outperformed defensive ones, then everyone would be on a timer in fights. You'd be slowly dropping towards zero health, not bouncing between 0-50% (after burst) & then going straight back up to 100% until the opponent's ulti is up again.

That is not the case, and it's not like the other resource pools are going down either with infinite sustain people are able to achieve, which leads us to the current state of ESO PvP: one shot or ResidentSleeper.

Ad. 1 - Do you really need to play HA to survive rookies attack? No. HA user mitigates their damage... others roll, shield, heal, los it. Thats it. In the end result is the same, exp players don't die to rookies. While on the other hand it takes 2 good DDs to kill almost any playable tank build (by playable I mean the ones that are actualy able to kill somebody)
Ad. 2 - Rune cage is nothing extraordinary. Fear does it as good as RC. Fossilize is even better as it adds root. Maybe amount of this unblockable burst damage is to high (we need to test it on live) but unavoidable stun stays where it is, because if it woould be realy the issue, you would call for absolute removal of this kind of skills, not just RC. Its simply nerf sorc statement.
Ad. 3 - Yes, youre right about HP spikes during fights, but its very complexed thing, not very common in other MMOS because of one simple fact: in ESO every class can play every role. In games where you have strictly bound roles to classes its easier to balance things out. Healers deal less damage or have much worse/almost no CCs. Tanks deal much less damage or have weak selfheals so you can slowly finish them off. DDs are lacking defences and selfheals, while in ESO... players can mix the best things form every role. This is the reason we see endless fights, or guys who can fight multiple enemies at the same time. Its the best thing in ESO, but it also what makes this game so hard for some ppl, its very complexed, and requires not only good build, but also great coordination and skill to be successful.

ToRelax

Mayrael wrote: »

[...]
Ad. 3 - Yes, youre right about HP spikes during fights, but its very complexed thing, not very common in other MMOS because of one simple fact: in ESO every class can play every role. In games where you have strictly bound roles to classes its easier to balance things out. Healers deal less damage or have much worse/almost no CCs. Tanks deal much less damage or have weak selfheals so you can slowly finish them off. DDs are lacking defences and selfheals, while in ESO... players can mix the best things form every role. This is the reason we see endless fights, or guys who can fight multiple enemies at the same time. Its the best thing in ESO, but it also what makes this game so hard for some ppl, its very complexed, and requires not only good build, but also great coordination and skill to be successful.

That, and the lack of individual skill cooldowns.

Fights last so long because it's possible to build very high sustain while not completely wrecking your offense and defense. Pre 1.6, it simply wasn't possible to bring your sustain to a level where it became trivial 1v1, with the exception of shield stacking pre 1.5.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

I didn't say anything about the cost of defensive skills. The cost of abilities is irrelevant due to people building for infinite sustain.

When it comes to the potency of these abilities (which is what affects the duration of fights) defensive ones do outperform offensive ones.

It could of course also be solved by making spamming defensive abilities unsustainable for everyone as well, that's the alternative solution to the issue that has persisted since the beta of this game. I'm under no illusion ZOS will ever actually change that, except by maybe giving only certain classes (or item sets) abilities that let them bypass defensive mechanics.

Well - again only if you compare potency on a gcd basis.
As in: hardened spam vs lavawhip spam.
But it doesn´t work that way because you´re able to layer offense and can´t do so (as excessively) with def.

Imo any build that´s setup to kill someone is also killable. The exception in being able to kill them being magsorc + stamblade because burst is not competetive in eso (changes for sorc next patch - maybe).

NyassaV

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

saw a post about rc and overload, are they really that bad this patch? I feel like rc is no different than any other stun that deals damage. Also thought overload got fixed in one of the patches?

I would like to see a heal over time for a sorc, dont touch surge tho, it perfect for pve, but there does need to be one for pvp and is sorc healers are ever going to take off

The difference between Rune Cage & other stuns that deal damage is that it's completely undodgeable/blockable (and even uncloakable to a degree, as you can get stunned while cloaked if you cast cloak even a millisecond after sorc cast RC).


The closest comparison in other undodgeable/blockable stuns would be Fossilize, and here's how it compares:

• Rune Cage 28m range - Fossilize 8m range
• Rune Cage 9-10k tooltip - Fossilize 5-6k tooltip

Not to mention how sorcs already have a ton of burst they can line up with that CC (compared to DK Fossilize combos).


It's kinda like if ZOS suddenly decided to give Mass Hysteria 9-10k tooltip. Some skills just aren't supposed to deal lots of damage.

Is that a stamblade complaining about another class burst damage or i got something wrong?
Dont worry,still those 3 key combos you talk about deal less burst damooge from your ulti that costs 70 pts stuns increases your damage done to enemy applies major defile and you get crit damage and crit hit rating just because you slotted it.

I'm not a big fan of Incap either, but atleast it's dodgeable/blockable & doesn't have 28m range.

For the record, the damage of Incap->Relentless is still far less than a sorc's Rune Cage combo.

5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena

81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration

2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398

2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737

12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760

14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496

4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391


5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw

73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration

2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105

2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149

10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329

12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183

6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518

4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284


You see, sorc burst is comparable with Incap->Relentless (which isn't guaranteed to land) even before you add the ultimate to the mix.

Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070

4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354


...and the NB burst is peanuts in comparison.

Could add in Force Pulse as well (after the cage->frag) as technically (and based on duels I've had on sorc) it's almost impossible to break free+dodge in time.


It's true that NBs need a lot less "setup" for their burst, but the maximum burst available to them is much less than what sorcs have - which is exactly why they're so easy (too easy imo) to play efficiently, but aren't really overpowered vs good players atleast when it comes to burst.

Actually pretty impressed and this makes perfect sense. The only thing that makes Nightblade more powerful than sorc is cloak

Tannus15

@ezio45 If I was doing this as a skelly warrior build I could put Zaan on, change to the lover mundas and easily hit 37k+

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Marteene wrote: »

This entire thread feels heavily devoted to PvP, has anyone else been doing magSorc DPS testing? So far all of my caster parses are showing sorcs to be relatively lackluster only outperforming magPlars. I haven’t done a lot of testing with pets but the caster is quite disappointing.

im starting to get around 30k with my non pet sorc, it might be an easy rotation but it doesnt hit hard until you really get execute on point and have gold gear, even then i think most sorcs are faking dps tests, i font see them pulling 40k

"Faking"

I've been messing around with some off meta setups on PTS. this was Wiil power, asylum staff, lich and ilambris.
The light attack buff has really opened up some options for running sustain sets and making up for the dps loss by not heavy attacking. at all.

note, this really was just messing around. You get better results with julianos and elemental weapon, lich on the front bar.
alternatively I got some decent results with julianos, burning spell weave and 2 infused spell cost reduction jewellery.

I have to say it's REALLY fun not heavy attacking. Light attacks are so strong now compared to heavies that it's really opened up some options for build strategies.

Also, no execute there at all.
Just saying.

You wont go far as a dps while wearing lich set..
Try siroria + nerfed acuity + ilambris/zaan(melee scenarios)

With zan you can pull around 42k on a 6mil dummy without bloodthirsty,with ilambris around 40k or less.(no off balance+exploiter)

Replace shooting star with atro,replace crushing shock with ele wep and use recovery food.

Im sure there are better setups from this ive mentioned above,did not spent enough time on magsorc to test all sets from a few tests ive made the above was the best.

Sorc is probably the weakest magica dps in summerset,at least from what ive seen.

Oh I'm well aware that lich is far from optimal, I was just messing around to see how things pan out if you build around 0 heavy attacks.

Siroria is really strong, but I'm not sure how good it'll be when movement is required. I worry that it'll be great for Craglorn trials and terrible for anything actually difficult. On the skelly I was getting around 37k with Siroria (non perfect) Mech (pre nerf) and Illambris, partly because I'm not top tier dps and partly because Australia and 300 ping.

Personally I really don't like the health loss of recovery food and if you try and compensate for it via enchants you end up losing a lot of max magicka.

I do disagree with this though "You wont go far as a dps while wearing lich set..". most end game guilds don't care what you're wearing if you can pull 35k+ on a 6mil. Sure I'd never get in a leaderboard group, but then I don't think I would no matter what gear I wear.

Mostly I was just pointing out to @ezio45 that 30k+ on a non pet sorc is pretty easy even with an odd setup.

Derra

Aedaryl wrote: »

OMG stop it, there is no 9-10k damage from rune cage.

You see 9k runecage on shackle + lich + slime + masterstaff with backbar spelldmg glyph + fulldmg enchants.
Admittedly slimecraw isn´t the most compelling choice for sorc but if you run it 9k+ tooltips are perfectly within reach.

Feanor

@DDuke

We have had this discussion more than once before, so just in brief: This PTS cycle is clearly showing that stealth isn’t going to get changed, cloak isn’t going to get changed as a invisibility skill therefore, and that the upfront burst NB has access to isn’t going to get changed.

Instead, the NB kiting tools are even better now that Image doesn’t require a target any longer. Don’t you understand how frustrating it is to have lacking counters (RML, Camo Hunter and pots) and instead get instagib combos nobody wanted either? I love a good fight, a fight that gives both sides chances, and if I lose I accept that. What I do not find fun is that one shot BS no matter which side can do it.

Derra

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

We have had this discussion more than once before, so just in brief: This PTS cycle is clearly showing that stealth isn’t going to get changed, cloak isn’t going to get changed as a invisibility skill therefore, and that the upfront burst NB has access to isn’t going to get changed.

Instead, the NB kiting tools are even better now that Image doesn’t require a target any longer. Don’t you understand how frustrating it is to have lacking counters (RML, Camo Hunter and pots) and instead get instagib combos nobody wanted either? I love a good fight, a fight that gives both sides chances, and if I lose I accept that. What I do not find fun is that one shot BS no matter which side can do it.

I think what we all have to accept is that the game is getting patched in a direction where soloplay becomes less and less feasible in pvp because the devs don´t want it to happen.

The games not as unbalanced as soon as you increase numbers in encounters to 3 or 4 on both sides. Ofc this excludes certain playstyles by default.

Feanor

Derra wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

We have had this discussion more than once before, so just in brief: This PTS cycle is clearly showing that stealth isn’t going to get changed, cloak isn’t going to get changed as a invisibility skill therefore, and that the upfront burst NB has access to isn’t going to get changed.

Instead, the NB kiting tools are even better now that Image doesn’t require a target any longer. Don’t you understand how frustrating it is to have lacking counters (RML, Camo Hunter and pots) and instead get instagib combos nobody wanted either? I love a good fight, a fight that gives both sides chances, and if I lose I accept that. What I do not find fun is that one shot BS no matter which side can do it.

I think what we all have to accept is that the game is getting patched in a direction where soloplay becomes less and less feasible in pvp because the devs don´t want it to happen.

The games not as unbalanced as soon as you increase numbers in encounters to 3 or 4 on both sides. Ofc this excludes certain playstyles by default.

I agree on that, but at the same time can’t understand why. There have been continuous efforts to make the players spread more (VD, Proxy Det, Siege buffs, Destro Ult) and at the same time ZOS encourages zerging up because of diametral implementations (poisons, one shot combos, stealth ganks, Earthgore, proc sets).

It’s almost like Jekyll and Hide are taking turns at balancing PvP. I don’t understand it at all.

Derra

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

We have had this discussion more than once before, so just in brief: This PTS cycle is clearly showing that stealth isn’t going to get changed, cloak isn’t going to get changed as a invisibility skill therefore, and that the upfront burst NB has access to isn’t going to get changed.

Instead, the NB kiting tools are even better now that Image doesn’t require a target any longer. Don’t you understand how frustrating it is to have lacking counters (RML, Camo Hunter and pots) and instead get instagib combos nobody wanted either? I love a good fight, a fight that gives both sides chances, and if I lose I accept that. What I do not find fun is that one shot BS no matter which side can do it.

I think what we all have to accept is that the game is getting patched in a direction where soloplay becomes less and less feasible in pvp because the devs don´t want it to happen.

The games not as unbalanced as soon as you increase numbers in encounters to 3 or 4 on both sides. Ofc this excludes certain playstyles by default.

I agree on that, but at the same time can’t understand why. There have been continuous efforts to make the players spread more (VD, Proxy Det, Siege buffs, Destro Ult) and at the same time ZOS encourages zerging up because of diametral implementations (poisons, one shot combos, stealth ganks, Earthgore, proc sets).

It’s almost like Jekyll and Hide are taking turns at balancing PvP. I don’t understand it at all.

Because devs don´t understand that bad players getting farmed isn´t fixable on their part.
You can not fix players being bad regardless of how many carrymechanics you implement.

The only thing this achieves is good players having to group up more in the process creating a new bad player loosing scenario on a larger scale.

Instead of 1vX you get 4vX or 10vX.

Which is ofc bad for the serverperformance.

They try to adress two things that are directly contradicting to each other at the same time and fail because of that.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

OMG stop it, there is no 9-10k damage from rune cage.

You see 9k runecage on shackle + lich + slime + masterstaff with backbar spelldmg glyph + fulldmg enchants.
Admittedly slimecraw isn´t the most compelling choice for sorc but if you run it 9k+ tooltips are perfectly within reach.

That, and there's nothing really stopping the usual PvE pug lord from going full damage when surrounded with 15 other zerglings and rune caging down any stam build trying to escape by dodge rolling.

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

We have had this discussion more than once before, so just in brief: This PTS cycle is clearly showing that stealth isn’t going to get changed, cloak isn’t going to get changed as a invisibility skill therefore, and that the upfront burst NB has access to isn’t going to get changed.

Instead, the NB kiting tools are even better now that Image doesn’t require a target any longer. Don’t you understand how frustrating it is to have lacking counters (RML, Camo Hunter and pots) and instead get instagib combos nobody wanted either? I love a good fight, a fight that gives both sides chances, and if I lose I accept that. What I do not find fun is that one shot BS no matter which side can do it.

Again, it isn't about NB.

I was just as excited to play my medium armor DW/2H stam sorc next patch, but that's also off the table thanks to unavoidable RC burst.

One can't really use NB (class that is getting the least buffs in this patch) as an excuse for sorc to get broken stuff.

Are there broken stuff on NB? Sure, and I've written about those dozens of times from the difficulty of finding a stealthed opponent and how there should be visual cues to how the stun of Incap makes stamblade too easy to play efficiently, how spamming dodge rolls/cloaks is too sustainable etc.


I really don't know why people keep bringing up NB & acting like I'm here to defend them - there's a different thread for NBs.

Mayrael

ToRelax wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

[...]
Ad. 3 - Yes, youre right about HP spikes during fights, but its very complexed thing, not very common in other MMOS because of one simple fact: in ESO every class can play every role. In games where you have strictly bound roles to classes its easier to balance things out. Healers deal less damage or have much worse/almost no CCs. Tanks deal much less damage or have weak selfheals so you can slowly finish them off. DDs are lacking defences and selfheals, while in ESO... players can mix the best things form every role. This is the reason we see endless fights, or guys who can fight multiple enemies at the same time. Its the best thing in ESO, but it also what makes this game so hard for some ppl, its very complexed, and requires not only good build, but also great coordination and skill to be successful.

That, and the lack of individual skill cooldowns.

Fights last so long because it's possible to build very high sustain while not completely wrecking your offense and defense. Pre 1.6, it simply wasn't possible to bring your sustain to a level where it became trivial 1v1, with the exception of shield stacking pre 1.5.

Yup, you're completely right (maybe with perma block exception).

Derra

Mayrael wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

[...]
Ad. 3 - Yes, youre right about HP spikes during fights, but its very complexed thing, not very common in other MMOS because of one simple fact: in ESO every class can play every role. In games where you have strictly bound roles to classes its easier to balance things out. Healers deal less damage or have much worse/almost no CCs. Tanks deal much less damage or have weak selfheals so you can slowly finish them off. DDs are lacking defences and selfheals, while in ESO... players can mix the best things form every role. This is the reason we see endless fights, or guys who can fight multiple enemies at the same time. Its the best thing in ESO, but it also what makes this game so hard for some ppl, its very complexed, and requires not only good build, but also great coordination and skill to be successful.

That, and the lack of individual skill cooldowns.

Fights last so long because it's possible to build very high sustain while not completely wrecking your offense and defense. Pre 1.6, it simply wasn't possible to bring your sustain to a level where it became trivial 1v1, with the exception of shield stacking pre 1.5.

Yup, you're completely right (maybe with perma block exception).

On the other hand it also wasn´t paying off to build full offense back then bc of very easy to reach softcaps.

Generally i feel spd/wpd isn´t good enough of a stat on gear currently.

Feanor

@DDuke

Keeping Zaan up on a Sorc only works 1v1 though. Melee range isn’t the best place to be when outnumbered.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

Keeping Zaan up on a Sorc only works 1v1 though. Melee range isn’t the best place to be when outnumbered.

Sure, that's why you keep BoL on your bar & use invis pots. Every 15s you can pretty much instantly delete a player as your Zaan+Caluurion will be up, so it's just a matter of kiting/spamming shields and utilizing LOS/sneak effectively for that short period.

Not easy of course compared to other sorc builds, but effective if you don't make mistakes.


I don't wanna drag people into this conversation, but there's a certain very good player (who used to have a very op stam DK in 2016...) who told me he uses that gear setup in BGs on Live (as in even before the Rune Cage changes) when I mentioned it, so it isn't even that original sadly.

Mayrael

Derra wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

[...]
Ad. 3 - Yes, youre right about HP spikes during fights, but its very complexed thing, not very common in other MMOS because of one simple fact: in ESO every class can play every role. In games where you have strictly bound roles to classes its easier to balance things out. Healers deal less damage or have much worse/almost no CCs. Tanks deal much less damage or have weak selfheals so you can slowly finish them off. DDs are lacking defences and selfheals, while in ESO... players can mix the best things form every role. This is the reason we see endless fights, or guys who can fight multiple enemies at the same time. Its the best thing in ESO, but it also what makes this game so hard for some ppl, its very complexed, and requires not only good build, but also great coordination and skill to be successful.

That, and the lack of individual skill cooldowns.

Fights last so long because it's possible to build very high sustain while not completely wrecking your offense and defense. Pre 1.6, it simply wasn't possible to bring your sustain to a level where it became trivial 1v1, with the exception of shield stacking pre 1.5.

Yup, you're completely right (maybe with perma block exception).

On the other hand it also wasn´t paying off to build full offense back then bc of very easy to reach softcaps.

Generally i feel spd/wpd isn´t good enough of a stat on gear currently.

This came to my mind to when I was testing gear. Loosing some spell dmg isn't as meaningful as loosing magicka recovery.

Minalan

Derra wrote: »

Admittedly slimecraw isn´t the most compelling choice for sorc but if you run it 9k+ tooltips are perfectly within reach.

Speak for yourself sir. 8% additional damage on well, everything is actually pretty badass for a two piece set bonus. Functionally It’s one step above going mismatched pair for 2K Magicka and 1K stamina.

Clever kids mix this with a shock glyph somewhere because slimecraw plus concussion is 16% damage increase, or *almost* free empower on every single attack.

Irylia

NyassaV wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

No RC changes in 4.0.3, I don’t know what to say.

Summerset = Quake instagib simulator (without aiming)

Sorc is weak pls buff, nobody will use cage open world

Except they’ll nerf frags again or something completely unrelated. The issue is that the devs don’t actually play the PVP game.

Bottom line, I was running cage with @RinaldoGandolphi and @Minno this weekend, both of them were running stamina builds. I called out cage targets in voice chat and EVERYONE I caged died.

“Cage on the Tank DK!” CLANG! BASH! SLICE! WRATH! Dead.

The skill doesn’t really need a buff at all when used correctly. Frags needed the stun back.

No, frags needs it's damage back but the stun needed to go. When the choice to take away the extra damage was made it solidified my opinion on whether Wrobel plays the game a lot or not. The CC is what made sorcs super powerful and hard to counter back in Morrowind/homestead. But Frags got over nerfed because the first nerf didn't work so they added another without reverting the original one

You do realize that rune cage goes through block and mid roll.

Reach is spammable

And frag... frag has a proc chance
slower projectile
Glowing hands
And can be dodged/blocked/evasioned (same as reach but being a spammable alleviates that concern)

You either land your one frag proc stun during a 3.5 sec combo set up or you are forced to reset.

It was in no way broken or overperforming. It was a smoother way for sorc to cast their rotation.

It’s essentially Dswing - a heavy hitting skill with a stun that can be used to lace a combo into it.

But we had a damage nerf before the stun and the stun of all things should have stayed.

Rune is a better knock off of dk and steals their identity.
Reach forces us to run the staff and replace our spammable. It is absolutely *** that our spammable to fish for a proc while also trying to time around curse, will stun the enemy before we actually want.

So you extend the duration you have to wait for a kill because you burn the cc trying to get a frag to utilize in your combo.

That’s aids
Keep the dmg I want the stun.
Class was way more flexible during frag stun time. With builds and movement in a fight.

Biro123

Irylia wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

No RC changes in 4.0.3, I don’t know what to say.

Summerset = Quake instagib simulator (without aiming)

Sorc is weak pls buff, nobody will use cage open world

Except they’ll nerf frags again or something completely unrelated. The issue is that the devs don’t actually play the PVP game.

Bottom line, I was running cage with @RinaldoGandolphi and @Minno this weekend, both of them were running stamina builds. I called out cage targets in voice chat and EVERYONE I caged died.

“Cage on the Tank DK!” CLANG! BASH! SLICE! WRATH! Dead.

The skill doesn’t really need a buff at all when used correctly. Frags needed the stun back.

No, frags needs it's damage back but the stun needed to go. When the choice to take away the extra damage was made it solidified my opinion on whether Wrobel plays the game a lot or not. The CC is what made sorcs super powerful and hard to counter back in Morrowind/homestead. But Frags got over nerfed because the first nerf didn't work so they added another without reverting the original one

You do realize that rune cage goes through block and mid roll.

Reach is spammable

And frag... frag has a proc chance
slower projectile
Glowing hands
And can be dodged/blocked/evasioned (same as reach but being a spammable alleviates that concern)

You either land your one frag proc stun during a 3.5 sec combo set up or you are forced to reset.

It was in no way broken or overperforming. It was a smoother way for sorc to cast their rotation.

It’s essentially Dswing - a heavy hitting skill with a stun that can be used to lace a combo into it.

But we had a damage nerf before the stun and the stun of all things should have stayed.

Rune is a better knock off of dk and steals their identity.
Reach forces us to run the staff and replace our spammable. It is absolutely *** that our spammable to fish for a proc while also trying to time around curse, will stun the enemy before we actually want.

So you extend the duration you have to wait for a kill because you burn the cc trying to get a frag to utilize in your combo.

That’s aids
Keep the dmg I want the stun.
Class was way more flexible during frag stun time. With builds and movement in a fight.

This, right there is why I've never wanted to run reach.
Its also partly why I kind of liked them moving the stun off frags and on to cage.. having your cc tied to a main damaging ability ends up with you either not doing the damage because you want to control that cc timing.. or doing the damage but losing out on your burst as you can no longer CC when you really want to....

Of course it doesn't stop every other reach-spammer from giving your target cc-immunity right when you're about to drop that perfect burst!! grr.

Bergzorn

Irylia wrote: »

Keep the dmg I want the stun.
Class was way more flexible during frag stun time. With builds and movement in a fight.

The class was more fun. Knocking people down with a procced frag while they gap-closed on you (remember the sound and the look on their face?) - priceless. I didn't even test if that works with some fancy rune cage, I'm just a simple person who likes to throw rocks at people.

Minno

Bergzorn wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Keep the dmg I want the stun.
Class was way more flexible during frag stun time. With builds and movement in a fight.

The class was more fun. Knocking people down with a procced frag while they gap-closed on you (remember the sound and the look on their face?) - priceless. I didn't even test if that works with some fancy rune cage, I'm just a simple person who likes to throw rocks at people.

I agree. The lack of a spamable was offset by the ease of how you could stun using frag procs.

Even with an unblockable stun, it results in a clunky class feel which as a Templar I can understand hating the frag change.

PhoenixGrey

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

Keeping Zaan up on a Sorc only works 1v1 though. Melee range isn’t the best place to be when outnumbered.

Sure, that's why you keep BoL on your bar & use invis pots. Every 15s you can pretty much instantly delete a player as your Zaan+Caluurion will be up, so it's just a matter of kiting/spamming shields and utilizing LOS/sneak effectively for that short period.

Not easy of course compared to other sorc builds, but effective if you don't make mistakes.


I don't wanna drag people into this conversation, but there's a certain very good player (who used to have a very op stam DK in 2016...) who told me he uses that gear setup in BGs on Live (as in even before the Rune Cage changes) when I mentioned it, so it isn't even that original sadly.

So you are trying out a nightblade playstyle on a sorc by using invisibility pots.

On top of that you build differently to delete someone every 15 seconds. Isn't that what nightblade already can do on any gear setup ?

Why not just play nightblade ?

DDuke

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

Keeping Zaan up on a Sorc only works 1v1 though. Melee range isn’t the best place to be when outnumbered.

Sure, that's why you keep BoL on your bar & use invis pots. Every 15s you can pretty much instantly delete a player as your Zaan+Caluurion will be up, so it's just a matter of kiting/spamming shields and utilizing LOS/sneak effectively for that short period.

Not easy of course compared to other sorc builds, but effective if you don't make mistakes.


I don't wanna drag people into this conversation, but there's a certain very good player (who used to have a very op stam DK in 2016...) who told me he uses that gear setup in BGs on Live (as in even before the Rune Cage changes) when I mentioned it, so it isn't even that original sadly.

So you are trying out a nightblade playstyle on a sorc by using invisibility pots.

On top of that you build differently to delete someone every 15 seconds. Isn't that what nightblade already can do on any gear setup ?

Why not just play nightblade ?

My playstyles on nightblade also vastly differ from the established meta - the typical meta build for stamblade is minimum 2k regen (typically 3k+), infinite dodge rolling/cloaking - builds around rolling/cloaking around a tower waiting for Incap Relentless to be up.

My builds are either Bow/Bow (Asylum Snipe combo) that gets up to 2k regen without compromising damage thanks to Marksman or DW/Bow (or DW/DW) with 1,2k regen & heavy attack sustain (means no infinite dodge roll/cloak spam).

Combo for the latter also varies from the usual as I go for Cloak->Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack (there's a trick to make that SA still stun the target & apply off balance, even as you Heavy Attack first)->Incap->Relentless/Surprise Attack.

The reason for the more complicated combo is that a nightblade can't "delete someone" every 15 seconds if that other player is even half decent at this game, you need more burst than just Incap->Relentless vs good players.

Those 2-3k+ regen rollerblade builds are good at killing pugs though and imo too easy to play efficiently in open world. It has a lot to do with the standard meta combo being so easy to perform in open world, as well as how easy it is to survive on those builds when you have infinite resources to go along with dodge roll & cloak.


But to answer your question: I like creating unique playstyles on every class, sometimes borrowing aspects from other classes & melding them together to create something that isn't a carbon copy of the person next to me, but still performs effectively in PvP.

Other sorc playstyle I'd love to try some day when it's viable is a heavy armor melee tank with Elemental Weapon, sets like Storm Knight etc etc - that'd be interesting I think.

Derra

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Admittedly slimecraw isn´t the most compelling choice for sorc but if you run it 9k+ tooltips are perfectly within reach.

Speak for yourself sir. 8% additional damage on well, everything is actually pretty badass for a two piece set bonus. Functionally It’s one step above going mismatched pair for 2K Magicka and 1K stamina.

Clever kids mix this with a shock glyph somewhere because slimecraw plus concussion is 16% damage increase, or *almost* free empower on every single attack.

Well nobody forces you to give up shock glyph so slimecraw is not more no less than 8% additive dmg.

On a builds with 14k unbuffed tooltip of frags slimecraw will see 0.7% dmg increase over mismatched 2x magica + stam (with magelight on bar). The more dmg you get the better slimecraw gets.

For most builds the additional stamina + magica (shieldstrengh) should outweight 0.5 to 1.5% dmg advantage + 3.8% crit from craw.

ZOS_Mika

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