Werewolf Theorycrafting (PvP)

Aznox · May 2018

6th. Tanky, High DPS, Claws of anguish to negate way more healing than than claws of life would have given you.

IlCanis_LupuslI · May 2018

2nd option: 38k resistances,
5th option: 30k resistances, 8% more damage thou
What of these both options would you take??? both with Claws of Anguish

Qbiken · May 2018

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

2nd option: 38k resistances,
5th option: 30k resistances, 8% more damage thou
What of these both options would you take??? both with Claws of Anguish

5th option + support

IlCanis_LupuslI · May 2018

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=60123
stats look solid, check it out, damage looks pretty nuts
Let me know what u think, check out the tooltips i´d get with this setup :-O
20.8k HoA tooltip f. e.
26.5 k bleed tooltip over 8 secs

Ritter · May 2018

@Mangeli200194 Major Defile is easily the best debuff in PvP, so I don't ever consider not running it, only where to get it from.

nryerson1025 · May 2018

pelinal
automaton
zaan

may you rest in peace

Aznox · May 2018

nryerson1025 wrote: »

pelinal
automaton
zaan

may you rest in peace

When using pelinal you should never use automaton but instead something that gives you "true" weapon damage. (Seven Legion, Truth, Fury, etc...)

nryerson1025 · May 2018

the sad truth is that ww is not up 100% of the time. automaton makes the build bearable out of form. each of those sets has healthy jewelry

Qbiken · May 2018

nryerson1025 wrote: »

pelinal
automaton
zaan

may you rest in peace

I´ve tried Zaan on werewolf, and I was not impressed (I find Zaan to bee quite underwhelming in PvP to be honest). If your enemy dies to Zaan while you´re in WW-form, they would´ve died without Zaan as well. There´re better monster helmets out there

nryerson1025 wrote: »

the sad truth is that ww is not up 100% of the time. automaton makes the build bearable out of form

While automaton makes the build bearable, it would be better to swap out Pelinial in that case (since your actual weapon-damage value in the character sheet isn´t increased by automaton, and therefore the heal from Hircine´s Rage isn´t buffed). In my opinion when making a WW-build you want:
1 sustain set + 1 offensive set
or
1 sustain set + 1 defensive set

Then you choose a monster helmet to define if you want to go more defensive or more offensive. Pelinial in my opinion is a defensive set, and automaton is an offensive set.
You rarely want to run 1 defensive + 1 offensive set (unless you´re in a big group so you don´t have to worry about sustain).

nryerson1025 · May 2018

it is a solo IC boss/player farm build. sustain isnt a problem when you heavy attack feared enemies. pelinal is essential to survival against multiple players and/or an IC boss simultaneously

nryerson1025 · May 2018

and zaan is goign to be overwhelming without pelinal. have you tried it with 5k spell dmg? again, it is not just to pvp, but also to take down high health bosses

and you can be critical of it all you want, you may call it helpfulness, say how it doesnt fit into your structure of a build, but the fact of the matter is it works quite well for me and i am satisfied. i bet you'd be too.

raasdal · May 2018

How about this for an alternative;

NB Khajit or Argonian
5xViper
5xSerpent
2xTroll King
5/1/1 Medium
SnB/DW?
Lingering Pot
Bear Haunch

Viper will enable the Proc for Serpent. Throw in either DoubleDot Poison or Infused Enchants, and basically you should be able to Light Attack someone to death. At least thats the idea. Anyone tried similar?

——-

Related topic; Best Class in WW form is NB right? Due to 15% Regen Passive. Or am i missing something? No other classes have anything usefull going through to WW form as i recall.

Qbiken · May 2018

raasdal wrote: »

How about this for an alternative;

NB Khajit or Argonian
5xViper
5xSerpent
2xTroll King
5/1/1 Medium
SnB/DW?
Lingering Pot
Bear Haunch

Viper will enable the Proc for Serpent. Throw in either DoubleDot Poison or Infused Enchants, and basically you should be able to Light Attack someone to death. At least thats the idea. Anyone tried similar?

——-

Related topic; Best Class in WW form is NB right? Due to 15% Regen Passive. Or am i missing something? No other classes have anything usefull going through to WW form as i recall.

I already light attack people to death

In my opinion stamsorc is the overall best class for werewolf. If you go for a Pelinial build, templar is slightly better (but only marginally). Next patch I feel stamsorc will be #1 because of the Persistence passive

Qbiken · May 2018

nryerson1025 wrote: »

and zaan is goign to be overwhelming without pelinal. have you tried it with 5k spell dmg? again, it is not just to pvp, but also to take down high health bosses

and you can be critical of it all you want, you may call it helpfulness, say how it doesnt fit into your structure of a build, but the fact of the matter is it works quite well for me and i am satisfied. i bet you'd be too.

I always advocate "to each to their own". I´m not bashing your build, if it works for you that´s amazing

I´ve tried almost every build that people have posted in this thread, even the once I´m highly skeptical with. And in my defense, the build makes sense for IC, but in your first comment my perception was that the build was for open world Cyrodil gameplay

(hence my "skeptical" opinion). But was not my intention to bash your setup

raasdal · May 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

How about this for an alternative;

NB Khajit or Argonian
5xViper
5xSerpent
2xTroll King
5/1/1 Medium
SnB/DW?
Lingering Pot
Bear Haunch

Viper will enable the Proc for Serpent. Throw in either DoubleDot Poison or Infused Enchants, and basically you should be able to Light Attack someone to death. At least thats the idea. Anyone tried similar?

——-

Related topic; Best Class in WW form is NB right? Due to 15% Regen Passive. Or am i missing something? No other classes have anything usefull going through to WW form as i recall.

I already light attack people to death

In my opinion stamsorc is the overall best class for werewolf. If you go for a Pelinial build, templar is slightly better (but only marginally). Next patch I feel stamsorc will be #1 because of the Persistence passive

Can you explain why?

Stamsorc has Implosion Passive. And nothing else, right? So why does it do WW better (in form) than others?

Stamplar has... Nothing? Maybe a 6% damage increase.

Mind you, i am talking about pure in form. I get the Templar Pelinal for out-of-form BoL on a Stamplar.

Qbiken · May 2018

raasdal wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

How about this for an alternative;

NB Khajit or Argonian
5xViper
5xSerpent
2xTroll King
5/1/1 Medium
SnB/DW?
Lingering Pot
Bear Haunch

Viper will enable the Proc for Serpent. Throw in either DoubleDot Poison or Infused Enchants, and basically you should be able to Light Attack someone to death. At least thats the idea. Anyone tried similar?

——-

Related topic; Best Class in WW form is NB right? Due to 15% Regen Passive. Or am i missing something? No other classes have anything usefull going through to WW form as i recall.

I already light attack people to death

In my opinion stamsorc is the overall best class for werewolf. If you go for a Pelinial build, templar is slightly better (but only marginally). Next patch I feel stamsorc will be #1 because of the Persistence passive

Can you explain why?

Stamsorc has Implosion Passive. And nothing else, right? So why does it do WW better (in form) than others?

Stamplar has... Nothing? Maybe a 6% damage increase.

Mind you, i am talking about pure in form. I get the Templar Pelinal for out-of-form BoL on a Stamplar.

Sorcerer:
* Power Stone: 15% reduce ulticost, not useful once transformed but is indeed a small + for sorc
* Unholy Knowledge: Reduces Magicka and Stamina costs for all abilities by 5% (sustain is always nice)
* Capacitor: Increases Magicka Recovery by 10% (nice to have since our heal in WW-form cost magicka)
* Energized: Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%. (All our damage except Claws of Anguish is physical damage)
* Implosion: RNG passive, fun when it procs, but not too reliable in my opinion.

Templar:
* Balanced Warrior: Increases Weapon Damage by 6% and Spell Resistance by 2640. (Only reason templar is better for pelinial builds but it will be around 100 extra weapon and spell damage). Our WW-heal scales of spell-damage and max magicka. So more weapon-damage = more spell-damage with pelinial.
* Restoring Spirit: Reduces Magicka, Stamina and Ultimate ability costs by 4%.

Aznox · May 2018

nryerson1025 wrote: »

and you can be critical of it all you want, you may call it helpfulness, say how it doesnt fit into your structure of a build, but the fact of the matter is it works quite well for me and i am satisfied. i bet you'd be too.

This is a theorycrafting thread.

If you don't want to hear that Pelinal/Automaton is a mathematically inferior combination, then maybe this isn't the right place for you

Edit : comment rewrite :

Hey ! Nice to see you are enjoying your werewolf performance in imperial city with this build.
If i may, i would suggest you give a shot to a set that gives "true" weapon damage as a 5 piece bonus instead of automaton. For example Seven Legion should give you up to 750 more spell damage fully buffed and increase your healing by a lot !

Aznox · May 2018

Speaking about imperial city reminded me of a test run i did with Imperial Physique + Shackbreaker and Troll King.

The incredible amount of raw stats nearly makes up for werewolf not being a great 1vX tool.

Quickly uploaded some footage :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv6wJWmWTYM&feature=youtu.be

TankHealz2015 · May 2018

Werewolf question:

What about Queen's Elegance set ?

Queen's Elegance Set:

LEVEL 50 CHAMPION 160

(2 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage

(3 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka

(4 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka

(5 items) Increases your Light and Heavy Attack damage by 20%.

Would you (anybody) run this set (jewelry & weapons) to bump up WW light attacks?

Maybe: Queen's Elegance + Shield Breaker/Blood Drinker/Durok's Bane/other?

If not, please could you explain why this set is not effective (open Cyridil and/or Imperial City).

Thanks!

Sharee · May 2018

TankHealz2015 wrote: »

Werewolf question:

What about Queen's Elegance set ?

Queen's Elegance Set:

LEVEL 50 CHAMPION 160

(2 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage

(3 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka

(4 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka

(5 items) Increases your Light and Heavy Attack damage by 20%.

Would you (anybody) run this set (jewelry & weapons) to bump up WW light attacks?

Maybe: Queen's Elegance + Shield Breaker/Blood Drinker/Durok's Bane/other?

If not, please could you explain why this set is not effective (open Cyridil and/or Imperial City).

Thanks!

I never tried it, so take this with a grain of salt.

WW light attack damage is so strong thanks to the WW bleed being reapplied(and ticking) on each light attack. Queen's elegance will only boost the LA damage, not the bleed damage, so it will only boost overall WW light attack spam damage by less than the stated 20%. The rest of the set will only benefit the WW heal.

I suspect a set that would give 2x max stam and weapon damage as its base bonuses would boost overall WW light attack spam damage by nearly as much just from that, disregarding any 5-piece bonus it might have (due to boosting both the LA itself *and* the bleed). Taking the 5-piece bonus into account, it would likely outperform QE.

Aznox · May 2018

^this.
Half of werewolf light attack spam damage comes from the bleed. Elegance not worth it.

Ritter · May 2018

Aznox wrote: »

^this.
Half of werewolf light attack spam damage comes from the bleed. Elegance not worth it.

I don't question you lightly most noble @Aznox, but either you are severely under-estimating the direct damage from light attacks or I am severely under-estimating the bleed damage from those light attacks, which I love BTW. I routinely smack people for 4k a lot after reduction and it feels so strong. I need to record and study my damage output more often though.

@TankHealz2015 - Elegance is much weaker on average than using any standard damage set due to how far off-course the 2-4 bonuses are for Elegance. WW can always use Max Mag/Spell Damage, but we're inherently a stam class so we want to pick up those bonuses incidentally while primarily boosting Stam and Weapon Damage, which makes sets like Shacklebreaker, Pelinal's, and Molag Kena so popular. It's been discussed more in the past though, so feel free to run a search for 'Elegance' in this thread.

Ritter · May 2018

I've been testing this in BGs:

2x Chudan
5x Pelinal's
5x Almalexia's Mercy (Jewelry+Weapons)

5 Med/2H

Last match I was 15-5-12 against premades, so the build 'works.' ~600k damage and ~50k heals to the team and that's before Summerset lets me get Robust jewelry.

Arcane hasn't been bad though with Pelinal's, honestly. 50k group healing is not breaking any records obviously, but it's good for 'free' and my damage didn't suffer much.

It's an odd build, but very solid. I made it to prove the concept of Almalexia's in group play, which other people will have to judge, but just objectively Almalexia's heals 20% more than Seventh Legion on myself, has twice the proc-rate chance, and heals my allies. Counterargument would be the damage gains on Seventh, but I'd argue that it's just not needed.

Thoughts?

Aznox · May 2018

Ritter wrote: »

I don't question you lightly most noble @Aznox, but either you are severely under-estimating the direct damage from light attacks or I am severely under-estimating the bleed damage from those light attacks, which I love BTW. I routinely smack people for 4k a lot after reduction and it feels so strong. I need to record and study my damage output more often though.

[/spoiler]

This is while spamming LA non-stop on a stationary target.
With equal crit rate it goes around 55% LA / 45% Bleed
Miss a few LA or cast a skill once in a while and it goes to 55-60% Bleed and 45-40% LA against a non-shielded target.

Aznox · May 2018

Ritter wrote: »

I've been testing this in BGs:

2x Chudan
5x Pelinal's
5x Almalexia's Mercy (Jewelry+Weapons)

Thoughts?

Honestly ?

I think you could reroll that Almalexia's Mercy to a random set from the game and 50% of the time the result would be better.

That heal is far from free, it has the huge opportunity cost of passing 500 Weapon damage and Spell damage from a set like Seven Legion.

Maybe you liked it because the result was more tanky that what you are used too ? In that case i would search in that direction for a way to achieve tankyness without sacrificing so much damage. (or just wait Summerset for Pelinal + Shacklebreaker)

Ritter · May 2018

Aznox wrote: »

...you could reroll that Almalexia's Mercy to a random set from the game and 50% of the time the result would be better...

RIP my eyebrows from that burn

You're probably right, too, dammit.

Thanks for the data on LA/Bleed, too... practically, 50/50 does sound right given how chaotic things get in PvP.

Chrlynsch · May 2018

@aznox @Ritter

It all comes down to how you CP spec your wolf.

Remember bleed will do full damage on a blocking and heavy armored target, light attack damage will be mitigated.

Ritter · May 2018

CP... what is CP? :P

I live that MaxCP/No CP life. Permawolf thrives in Battlegrounds, It'll be hard to take a break when Summerset comes.

Chrlynsch · May 2018

Ritter wrote: »

CP... what is CP? :P

I live that MaxCP/No CP life. Permawolf thrives in Battlegrounds, It'll be hard to take a break when Summerset comes.

Lol

Aznox · May 2018

... and against a magicka shield user, bleed will do a lot less damage than light attacks because there is no resistance to bypass, there's much more depth to our toolkit than most people know