Werewolf Theorycrafting (PvP)

Aztlan

I am wondering if Troll King, Shacklebreaker, Mechanical Acuity might be a good combo next patch, despite the nerf to MA. The additional max Magicka and Stamina seem nice. On the other hand, maybe Bone Pirate is the way to go given the increased importance of stamina in calculating light attack damage. I'm currently wearing TK, Shacklebreaker, Armor of Truth, 5-1-1, DW/2H, on my stamina Nightblade.

rstas

I'v just tried PTS vs LIVE on my WW to check light atack boost, and there is none even PTS light atack hits for little less dmg. Max what i was able to do is 15k dmg.

rstas

I ve just finish reading all 22 pages. Nice to see so many wolfs:) around.
I play ww for like always, and love it.
ATM I got few builds for my Stam DK, which I prefer over rest:
-Fury+Ravager+Kena/troll king, dual wields, crazy WD u can have around 7k
-Mechanical Acuity+Ravager+Skoria, 5s of crazy dots, and all dmg critable, so if u put combo la+claws+fear+ha+agony U 1 shoot people
-Mechanical+Spriggan+TK, high pene for non bleed atacks, works nice vs tanks
-my new test is around mechanical+cyrodil light/fassala+skoria/tk/zaan, I love to use this vs templars/stam sorcs,
Cya Mates.

Qbiken

Sharee wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

I was thinking if comparing , Pelinals vs Shacklebreaker whats bettter for WW-Open world??....

Why not both?

I´m experimenting with Pelinial + Shackle on the PTS and it´s really nice

One thing that bothers me about that combo is that it wastes one set bonus. The 3-piece shacklebreaker is completely useless.

Yea, it´s the small downside of that combo. But in my opinion the biggest downside with this combo is the physical-/spell resistance which is quite low. Think I sit at around 25k of both in WW-form when Hurricane runs out. My stats fully buffed in Cyrodil:

(Might have some numbers wrong since I´m pulling these out of my head)

Magicka recovery: 1,1 - 1,5k. Depends on what food/drink I use.
Health recovery: 800-ish
Stamina recovery: 1,5 - 2,1k. Depends on what food/drink and mundus I use.

Max Magicka: 16,1k
Max Health: 24-26k
Max Stamina: 40k

Critical Resistance: 2,7k
Physical-/Spell Resistance: 25k

Weapon-/spell damage: 5,8 - 6k
Weapon-/spell crit: 22%

My plan is to run with together with a magicka Warden support (which in my opinion is the #1 Support Class if played correctly). A good support-build will make a werewolf severely stronger than it already is

Aznox

Aztlan wrote: »

I am wondering if Troll King, Shacklebreaker, Mechanical Acuity might be a good combo next patch, despite the nerf to MA.

Yes, i think all the good crafted sets we didn't give much credit "because Shacklebreaker" will be worth revisiting.

Sanguis_Tiberius

Theory build idea:
Vampire/Nightblade Hunter [Aware that this won't be "BiS"]

Dual wield Axes
Bow backbar
x5 Sentry set on Dual wield axes
x5 Shacklebreaker OR x5 Prisoner's Rag
x2 Kena OR x1 Kena and x1 Velidreth

Probably only run WW form in a group but I wanted to hit NBs in PvP hard. It's targeted around hunting the hunters with the 50% detection radius increase + detection pot.

Any advice?

IlCanis_LupuslI

tbh i dont have that much of a problem with the average nb who is basically hileriously easy to kill. With the experienced nb i simply dont transform or only transform late in the fight. The trick is everytime they cloak u block and wait, as soon as they jump you, you knock them down with houl of Agony and dot them up, usually they cloak and try and heal up. With the healing debuff, by the time they come out of stealth their hp isnt full yet.
So you keep your defile on them and repeat this from the beginning. Sooner or later they usually run away or die(usually they run away if their smart) oh yes and everytime they incap you, fear them away and dodge 1-2 times to let the 20% damage buff run out.
Against the averarge nb this is super effective...

Qbiken

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

tbh i dont have that much of a problem with the average nb who is basically hileriously easy to kill. With the experienced nb i simply dont transform or only transform late in the fight. The trick is everytime they cloak u block and wait, as soon as they jump you, you knock them down with houl of Agony and dot them up, usually they cloak and try and heal up. With the healing debuff, by the time they come out of stealth their hp isnt full yet.
So you keep your defile on them and repeat this from the beginning. Sooner or later they usually run away or die(usually they run away if their smart) oh yes and everytime they incap you, fear them away and dodge 1-2 times to let the 20% damage buff run out.
Against the averarge nb this is super effective...

A good magblade is more of a problem to be honest

Aztlan

I used to run Sentry on my NB in the IC, Sanguinus, and it's a lot of fun, but I basically had a gank build. You have to hit them hard before they can recover. And it also involved a lot of stealthing and waiting. I'm not sure how that would go as a werewolf, but worth a try.

Sanguis_Tiberius

Aztlan wrote: »

I used to run Sentry on my NB in the IC, Sanguinus, and it's a lot of fun, but I basically had a gank build. You have to hit them hard before they can recover. And it also involved a lot of stealthing and waiting. I'm not sure how that would go as a werewolf, but worth a try.

Awesome! I'm glad someone else tried something similar.
In WW form the hope is that NBs can't sneak around you and then attack. Basically shocking them when I still pounce them while their in stealth before they can recover like usual.

Ritter

rstas wrote: »

I'v just tried PTS vs LIVE on my WW to check light atack boost, and there is none even PTS light atack hits for little less dmg. Max what i was able to do is 15k dmg.

If the builds were the same and your live build has a lot of Weapon Damage, then this is consistent with the other tests I've seen. Sucks because ZOS nerfed the best WW builds by trying to buff light attacks for everyone. They never seem to get it right when it comes to Werewolf.

IlCanis_LupuslI

So back to my question: Why do some people shoose Shackle over Pelinals, they gain 1k tooltip on damage vs a 6k tooltip loss on their main heal...

Ritter

Nothing new here, but this thing will hit hard on Monday when Summerset drops:

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=62646

52k stam without CP

Monster pieces are there to push the stats, but you could slot Chudan, actually block tactically with 50k stam, and be at resistance caps in 5 medium

Heals are OK, but nothing to celebrate... and Pelinal's seems so wrong with the light attack changes

Aznox

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

So back to my question: Why do some people shoose Shackle over Pelinals, they gain 1k tooltip on damage vs a 6k tooltip loss on their main heal...

Because my build does not need more heal. I cannot lose a 1v1 unless i play really dumb.

I'll put so much pressure on the enemy that he will barely outdps my Troll King after performing his defensive rotation.

When outnumbered my magicka pool is enough to carry me into safety or line of sight unless i really overextended.

Pelinal is very strong but i feel Troll King is a perfect compliment to our burst heal, and Pelinal + Troll King is too much defense for my taste.

With Summerset i'll probably try Pelinal + Shacklebreaker + Kena.

IlCanis_LupuslI

OK makes sense, in my case I have to fight outnumbered on a very regular basis, which means that I need the strong pelinal heals they save my furry butt on a regular basis

Ritter

@Aznox I'll put $5 on you coming back to Troll King quickly... it's too good with the secret sauce. :P

Chrlynsch

Ritter wrote: »

@Aznox I'll put $5 on you coming back to Troll King quickly... it's too good with the secret sauce. :P

Secret sauce gets better next patch too.

Qbiken

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Ritter wrote: »

@Aznox

Good point... I've stayed up too late

I'll test again with some builds as you have to see if we come up with the same results then, for science.

Ritter wrote: »

@Aznox I'll put $5 on you coming back to Troll King quickly... it's too good with the secret sauce. :P

Secret sauce gets better next patch too.

Are we still talking about invisability pots?

Aztlan

Hey guys, I'm starting a new werewolf guild on PC NA Vivec.

I don't want to derail anything, so I'll just post a link: The Queen's Pack

Aznox

Qbiken wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Ritter wrote: »

@Aznox

Good point... I've stayed up too late

I'll test again with some builds as you have to see if we come up with the same results then, for science.

Ritter wrote: »

@Aznox I'll put $5 on you coming back to Troll King quickly... it's too good with the secret sauce. :P

Secret sauce gets better next patch too.

Are we still talking about invisability pots?

something something new ingredients new effects combinations

Sanguis_Tiberius

@Qbiken can you or anyone confirm whether light attacks in WW form scaled with the changes to overall light attack damage? Crafting a new ww build rn

Qbiken

Sanguis_Tiberius wrote: »

@Qbiken can you or anyone confirm whether light attacks in WW form scaled with the changes to overall light attack damage? Crafting a new ww build rn

@Sanguis_Tiberius

Not 100% sure I understand your question but I´ll try to give my best answer:

Non-werewolf characters:
If we start by looking at non-werewolf characters, the changes to light- & heavy attacks are working as intended. When comparing my PvE builds pre-summerset with live, I get more damage on my LA & HA on live. Depending on my build I get somewhere between 10-20% more damage out of my LA & HA´s.

Werewolfs:
TL:DR = ZOS messed up. By replacing a part of the previous calculation for LA & HA damage during the PTS cycles. This resulted in a huge damage nerf for werewolf. ZOS later buffed the "bugged calculation" by 50%. The end result was that the LA & HA was almost unchanged (slightly nerfed) compared to pre-summerset.


If you´ve a build that stacked a lot of weapon-damage pre summerset, your LA & HA will do less damage on live than before. If you pre summerset had a build that stacked a lot of stamina (by using sets like Hulking Draugr for example), your LA & HA will do more damage.

While the damage nerf wasn´t huge (5-7% if I remember correctly) it doesn´t go in line with the damage buff non-werewolfs got. This bothers me quite a lot. If werewolfs had gotten the same treatment as non-werewolfs and it they had been too "OP" because of that, I would´ve been fine with a small damage nerf. But the lack of consistency and ZOS way of twisting words into "this is a buff" (while it isn´t) is getting a little annoying at this point.

It´s not the end for werewolfs, but they was left out of quite a damage buff that everyone else received.

Sharee

Qbiken wrote: »

Sanguis_Tiberius wrote: »

@Qbiken can you or anyone confirm whether light attacks in WW form scaled with the changes to overall light attack damage? Crafting a new ww build rn

@Sanguis_Tiberius

Not 100% sure I understand your question but I´ll try to give my best answer:

Non-werewolf characters:
If we start by looking at non-werewolf characters, the changes to light- & heavy attacks are working as intended. When comparing my PvE builds pre-summerset with live, I get more damage on my LA & HA on live. Depending on my build I get somewhere between 10-20% more damage out of my LA & HA´s.

Werewolfs:
TL:DR = ZOS messed up. By replacing a part of the previous calculation for LA & HA damage during the PTS cycles. This resulted in a huge damage nerf for werewolf. ZOS later buffed the "bugged calculation" by 50%. The end result was that the LA & HA was almost unchanged (slightly nerfed) compared to pre-summerset.


If you´ve a build that stacked a lot of weapon-damage pre summerset, your LA & HA will do less damage on live than before. If you pre summerset had a build that stacked a lot of stamina (by using sets like Hulking Draugr for example), your LA & HA will do more damage.

While the damage nerf wasn´t huge (5-7% if I remember correctly) it doesn´t go in line with the damage buff non-werewolfs got. This bothers me quite a lot. If werewolfs had gotten the same treatment as non-werewolfs and it they had been too "OP" because of that, I would´ve been fine with a small damage nerf. But the lack of consistency and ZOS way of twisting words into "this is a buff" (while it isn´t) is getting a little annoying at this point.

It´s not the end for werewolfs, but they was left out of quite a damage buff that everyone else received.

I wonder whether this discrepancy between non-WW buff and WW buff isn't simply a matter of weapon damage.

As in, the more your damage relies on weapon damage stat (as opposed to max stamina), the less of a buff you got (and eventually the buff becomes a nerf if your reliance on weapon damage was too high), and WW's simply have a naturally much higher weaponskill than non-WW's which makes it seems WW's are 'broken'.

Or in other words, if a non-WW character could have WW-level of weapon damage contributing to his light attacks(accounting for the higher LA scaling WW gets from weapon damage), the nerf/buff to LA he would perceive would be the same.

Aznox

Sharee wrote: »

I wonder whether this discrepancy between non-WW buff and WW buff isn't simply a matter of weapon damage.

As in, the more your damage relies on weapon damage stat (as opposed to max stamina), the less of a buff you got (and eventually the buff becomes a nerf if your reliance on weapon damage was too high), and WW's simply have a naturally much higher weaponskill than non-WW's which makes it seems WW's are 'broken'.

Or in other words, if a non-WW character could have WW-level of weapon damage contributing to his light attacks(accounting for the higher LA scaling WW gets from weapon damage), the nerf/buff to LA he would perceive would be the same.

This, i had lower dual wield LA/HA in human form on PTS with my build.

Keep in mind my test were done with an infused weapon damage glyph proc so the average result might be less extreme.

Qbiken

I wonder whether this discrepancy between non-WW buff and WW buff isn't simply a matter of weapon damage.

This was my theory at first as well

As in, the more your damage relies on weapon damage stat (as opposed to max stamina), the less of a buff you got (and eventually the buff becomes a nerf if your reliance on weapon damage was too high), and WW's simply have a naturally much higher weaponskill than non-WW's which makes it seems WW's are 'broken'.

This is the case for werewolfs. However, I don´t get the same results with non-werewolf characters. The way you put it, it´s almost like there is a soft-cap on LA/HA damage from your weapon-damage.

During the PTS I tried a high spell-damage build with values that aren´t far from what you can achieve with a werewolf (I had around 5k spell-damage and 40k max magicka). These tests was made during the last PTS-cycle. My theory from start was that I was going to get a lower increase on my LA & HA´s the more spell-damage I stacked (compared to live), the same way werewolfs did but with weapon damage. This was never the case however, I never hit that "soft-cap", and I never experienced a reduced damage to my LA & HA´s like I did with my werewolf (compared to previous live)

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that non-werewolf characters benefit from both weapon/spell damage + the new max resource scaling, while werewolf mainly benefit from the new max resource scaling only.

Non-WW´s LA damage = (Spell/weapondmg + new max resource scaling) x -20% damage nerf

WW´s LA damage = New max resource scaling x 50% buff.

ZOS realised during the first two PTS cycles that LA´s did too much damage, so they nerf their damage overall (I think they nerfed LA damage by 20% if I remember correctly), but kept the same scaling. This gave a smaller buff than before, but still quite a decent buff.

What I would´ve wanted:

WW´s LA damage = (Weapon dmg + new max resource scaling) x -% damage nerf.
^This would´ve been an appropriate change that would´ve gone in line with what non-werewolfs got. The -% damage nerf would´ve been higher for werewolfs since they naturally have higher weapon damage and max stamina, but we would at least have some consistency....

Sharee

Qbiken wrote: »

During the PTS I tried a high spell-damage build with values that aren´t far from what you can achieve with a werewolf (I had around 5k spell-damage and 40k max magicka). These tests was made during the last PTS-cycle. My theory from start was that I was going to get a lower increase on my LA & HA´s the more spell-damage I stacked (compared to live), the same way werewolfs did but with weapon damage. This was never the case however, I never hit that "soft-cap", and I never experienced a reduced damage to my LA & HA´s like I did with my werewolf (compared to previous live).

Keep in mind that werewolves get special scaling of LA damage with weapon damage stat.

So to match a werewolf with a non-WW character, you need not only get close to the WW values for raw damage stat, you need to surpass it by whatever multiplier WW light attacks get over regular light attacks.

For example, if a 5000 WD WW gets a 1.5x multiplier on the effectiveness of his weapon damage on his light attacks, the non-WW character would need not 5000 but 7500 WD to observe the same LA values as the WW.

Qbiken

Sharee wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

During the PTS I tried a high spell-damage build with values that aren´t far from what you can achieve with a werewolf (I had around 5k spell-damage and 40k max magicka). These tests was made during the last PTS-cycle. My theory from start was that I was going to get a lower increase on my LA & HA´s the more spell-damage I stacked (compared to live), the same way werewolfs did but with weapon damage. This was never the case however, I never hit that "soft-cap", and I never experienced a reduced damage to my LA & HA´s like I did with my werewolf (compared to previous live).

Keep in mind that werewolves get special scaling of LA damage with weapon damage stat.

So to match a werewolf with a non-WW character, you need not only get close to the WW values for raw damage stat, you need to surpass it by whatever multiplier WW light attacks get over regular light attacks.

For example, if a 5000 WD WW gets a 1.5x multiplier on the effectiveness of his weapon damage on his light attacks, the non-WW character would need not 5000 but 7500 WD to observe the same LA values as the WW.

I see.

Will have to redo those tests then

Edit: I think I read somewhere that someone suspected that this 1,5x multiplier "broke" with the new max resource scaling as well, and can be another reason WW´s LA damage is lower than pre-summerset. I can´t however confirm this :P

Sanguis_Tiberius

@Qbiken Yup, you answered my question. Thank you. I was worried they kept the nerf. Whether it's accidental or not, I hope they fix it or buff WW s entirely.

Ritter

According to UESP, this is the complete formula a Werewolf light attack:

UESP wrote:

LAWerewolf = (round(0.0449953*Stamina + 0.471987*WeaponDamage - 0.232637) + Skill2.HADamage)*(1 + CP.LAActiveDamage + CP.PhysicalDamageDone + CP.DirectDamageDone)*(1 + Skill.LADamage + Set.LADamage + Buff.Empower + Skill.PhysicalDamageDone + Skill.LAMeleeDamage + Skill.DamageDone)

Good luck!

Aztlan

Hohoho! With Artaeum Takeaway Broth, Troll King, khajiit health recovery passive, potion health recovery bonus, and a few CP I am getting more than 3500 health recovery. And that's on a werewolf build that still hits 5400 max weapon damage.