PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Templar Balance

Mr_Nobody · May 2018

Didnt I say that we will receive that 4% damage increase on Sweeps in 2019? lmao

jbjondeaueb17_ESO · May 2018

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Didnt I say that we will receive that 4% damage increase on Sweeps in 2019? lmao

Yes, but for that they will, at least, decrease the secondary heal from Breath of Life to 20% of the main one

Navras · May 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

You're wearing Master Architect and using a 250 point ultimate is probably the biggest reason. Although even on an optimized templar, your parse is going to be lower than the NB

Thanks for your input JD (and for your various post about the class as well!).

I do wear Mech Acuity + Julianos on Templar while I wear Julianos and Master Architect on Magblade. Even accounting the fact that I don't have minor and major slayer on the magplar the difference is huge and the spec looks a lot undertuned.

Considering those numbers (and accounting the fact that I'm not a bot nor a pro player) I'd say that magplar deserve a flat 10% buff, at least. It will still parse lot lower on a single target, preserving some kind of niche on cleave and multitarget damage

Khivas_Carrick · May 2018

@ZOS_GinaBruno

How the hell does your class team still have jobs when they can't balance out, let alone simply update, a single class after nearly Five (5) years?

Destruent · May 2018

jbjondeaueb17_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Didnt I say that we will receive that 4% damage increase on Sweeps in 2019? lmao

Yes, but for that they will, at least, decrease the secondary heal from Breath of Life to 20% of the main one

I'm pretty sure, they will do this without nerfing BoL. But they will surely increase all other DMG by atleast 10%, so it's still a nerf (but they can sell it as buff

)

technohic · May 2018

Can’t program everything in a single PTS cycle; but why gather feedback when it’s not going to have dev time? It just discourages people from testing next time.

I have just felt like from Morrowind in and maybe a bit before when they started the quarterly updates to include content and systems; things are being pushed with out allowing proper time dedicated to QOL and balancing. Just get random adjustments in the big patch without testing having a chance to be taken into consideration. It’s always a next patch away.

Minno · May 2018

Navras wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

You're wearing Master Architect and using a 250 point ultimate is probably the biggest reason. Although even on an optimized templar, your parse is going to be lower than the NB

Thanks for your input JD (and for your various post about the class as well!).

I do wear Mech Acuity + Julianos on Templar while I wear Julianos and Master Architect on Magblade. Even accounting the fact that I don't have minor and major slayer on the magplar the difference is huge and the spec looks a lot undertuned.

Considering those numbers (and accounting the fact that I'm not a bot nor a pro player) I'd say that magplar deserve a flat 10% buff, at least. It will still parse lot lower on a single target, preserving some kind of niche on cleave and multitarget damage

Also your Dawn's wraith ult Regen passive has more efficacy on Ultimates with lower cost. It's just a shame empowering/cresant sweep are watered down versions of both Dawnbreaker/incap combined, so our passive sees much less use (not counting the fact that the abilities from this line are clunky to use in fast paced environments).

Destruent · May 2018

Minno wrote: »

Navras wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

You're wearing Master Architect and using a 250 point ultimate is probably the biggest reason. Although even on an optimized templar, your parse is going to be lower than the NB

Thanks for your input JD (and for your various post about the class as well!).

I do wear Mech Acuity + Julianos on Templar while I wear Julianos and Master Architect on Magblade. Even accounting the fact that I don't have minor and major slayer on the magplar the difference is huge and the spec looks a lot undertuned.

Considering those numbers (and accounting the fact that I'm not a bot nor a pro player) I'd say that magplar deserve a flat 10% buff, at least. It will still parse lot lower on a single target, preserving some kind of niche on cleave and multitarget damage

Also your Dawn's wraith ult Regen passive has more efficacy on Ultimates with lower cost. It's just a shame empowering/cresant sweep are watered down versions of both Dawnbreaker/incap combined, so our passive sees much less use (not counting the fact that the abilities from this line are clunky to use in fast paced environments).

up to 2 ult/6sec (number could be wrong...?) is the same whether you use a low cost, or high cost ultimate...doesn't matter at all for pve...

Minno · May 2018

So now that we won't see this feedback again, what's the revised list of things we need changed?

We aren't going to see tank/damage skills in our kit. Pisjic order has the cc, sustain, and mobilty we have been adding for already; I don't zos will their us bones there anymore. Here's my list (bold is for quick reference):
- stamplar needs a unique sustain. Repentance is really sexy, but stamplar has no unique DMG to synergize with reaching that sustain. Burning light should work on all Templar damage, or the very least work on all class DMG abilities. And burning light should be unblocked similar to Sorc execute passive. This will make use of our unblocked passive and give stamplar a unique damage to make up for us not having major breach/fracture in our kits. Also other classes have an interesting DMG with interesting sustain; nightblades have siphoning strikes which uses light attacks which also are used to proc the relentless attack skill. DKs have sustain via ultimate activation with huge DMG burst with take flight. Sorcs have global DMG passives and passive execute which can be used across alot of AOE/dots which synergize well with dark deal channeling. Wardens have sustain via heals, a cheap AOE ultimate, and a huge AOE burst that increasing your DMG done that will now deal major fracture/breach. Templars have repentance, which requires you to kill bodies; where's the DMG synergy?
- fix repentance cap. Or give all players in the area the stamina to promote single coordinated use. The max stat scaling and body limit is enough of a "soft cap" system to make the changes above.
- hasty prayer is too expensive when compared to warden burst AOE heal and resto staff AOE heals. The cost alone is reason to stay with BoL; instant cast but hits one player with a massive synergy with our mending passive. But hasty prayer? Is mending enough to justify a 6k tooltip on a Breton light armor healer? Nope, and I imagine players will quickly learn healing springs has a similar effect but gives back mag so hasty prayer will once again be obsolete. It honestly should be changed to a HOT and bol be granted their extra targets back.
- mending passive is too restrictive, especially since Templars have access to stronger heals in other lines. With all the nerfs to the Templar kit, making it global again will give stamplar much needed identity back into their builds. It will also make full use of our other healing spells that were given outside the resto line (like total dark, purfying light, jabs, etc.). This will help ALL roles in all facets of play.
- no sustain for tanks. Other classes can pull from mag to Stam to offset blocking, but Templars can't do this. We also can't expect to use meditate for this, when we need to be able to drop block quickly and not have to recast a spell and then block (which I assume costs 2 global cooldown and then have to hit block, versus only one for other classes while holding block). Aedric spear should grant this, in fact burning light should proc stamina back.

That's what I got for now.

Cinbri · May 2018

So,
1. Nova from 12 ticks went to 11 ticks. I.e damage of Nova nerfed thx to Enduring Rays. Will anything happen with it or it will be intentional nerf?
2. DPS Magnetic bomb of Unstable Core decreasing thx again to Enduring Rays passive. Will anything happen with it?
3. Overhauled skills (Eclipse, Backlash) don't work with Bloodthorn set, i.e. set that is super valuable coz its stamina restore, is not reliable for Templar. Does it ever be fixed?
4. Eclipse grant cc immunity on cleanse. Will it be acknowledged as bug and fixed?
5. Radial Sweep bugged and miss all targets in its range half of time. When does this bug finally will be fixed?

@ZOS_GinaBruno

tinythinker · May 2018

nnn

Minno · May 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

So,
1. Nova from 12 ticks went to 11 ticks. I.e damage of Nova nerfed thx to Enduring Rays. Will anything happen with it or it will be intentional nerf?
2. DPS Magnetic bomb of Unstable Core decreasing thx again to Enduring Rays passive. Will anything happen with it?
3. Overhauled skills (Eclipse, Backlash) don't work with Bloodthorn set, i.e. set that is super valuable coz its stamina restore, is not reliable for Templar. Does it ever be fixed?
4. Eclipse grant cc immunity on cleanse. Will it be acknowledged as bug and fixed?
5. Radial Sweep bugged and miss all targets in its range half of time. When does this bug finally will be fixed?

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Hopefully the bug fixes they are doing capture these! Along with the other bugs found, Cinbri!

Zinaroth · May 2018

I want Templar to have a proper Major Ward and Major Resolve self buff.

DRAGONKNIGHTS have a 22 second self buff.
SORCERERS have a 22 second self buff.
WARDENS have a 22 second self buff.
NIGHTBLADES get it inherently if they use their main spammable every 8 seconds.
TEMPLARS have a rune which is placed on the ground and which needs to be recast every 8 seconds if you're moving, which in PvP you always are.

Am I the only one who see the inconsistency in how easy all other classes have with keeping up their Major Ward and Major Resolve versus Templars?

Make it a true self buff like all other classes have, and make the morph effects stick as well just like Wardens, Dragonknights and Sorcerers have strong secondary effect on theirs which stick.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Elsterchen · May 2018

@Zinaroth ... you are not alone, noted this down in another thread already. Templars rune is as costly as wardens major defense group buff, has the change of getting way more expensive due to poisons and recasts during fights, and doesn't offer as much as any other Major Devense buff of any other class for secondary effects.

btw. Am I the only one with a reduced cap on PoTL (in current setup 23k on live vs 19k on PTS) ?

Zinaroth · May 2018

Elsterchen wrote: »

@Zinaroth ... you are not alone, noted this down in another thread already. Templars rune is as costly as wardens major defense group buff, has the change of getting way more expensive due to poisons and recasts during fights, and doesn't offer as much as any other Major Devense buff of any other class for secondary effects.

btw. Am I the only one with a reduced cap on PoTL (in current setup 23k on live vs 19k on PTS) ?

@Elsterchen I suggested this two years ago aswell directly to Wrobel, together with Alcast, after being asked directly by Gina to compile feedback for him. Nothing ever came of those suggestions. But I have tried making a new thread for it, if you or anyone else care to support the cause:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/412049/suggestion-templar-upkeep-of-major-ward-and-major-resolve-through-true-self-buff-like-other-classes/p1?new=1

Elsterchen · May 2018

@Zinaroth I added my other post, but I fear class balance won't come this patch. And I fear its too early to put it on the table yet. (The combat team will want to have time of backslapping and praise, after SI release, before they get back to what they call work, again).

However i hope @Cinbri's bugs find acknowledgement during this PTS... after all eliminating bugs IS still part of the PTS.
I'll repost, in case it gets lost otherwise:

Cinbri wrote: »

So,
1. Nova from 12 ticks went to 11 ticks. I.e damage of Nova nerfed thx to Enduring Rays. Will anything happen with it or it will be intentional nerf?
2. DPS Magnetic bomb of Unstable Core decreasing thx again to Enduring Rays passive. Will anything happen with it?
3. Overhauled skills (Eclipse, Backlash) don't work with Bloodthorn set, i.e. set that is super valuable coz its stamina restore, is not reliable for Templar. Does it ever be fixed?
4. Eclipse grant cc immunity on cleanse. Will it be acknowledged as bug and fixed?
5. Radial Sweep bugged and miss all targets in its range half of time. When does this bug finally will be fixed?

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Zinaroth · May 2018

Elsterchen wrote: »

@Zinaroth I added my other post, but I fear class balance won't come this patch. And I fear its too early to put it on the table yet. (The combat team will want to have time of backslapping and praise, after SI release, before they get back to what they call work, again).

I am still hoping they are professional enough to actually keep a list of proposals which gained major traction.

Feanor · May 2018

My perception is they just don’t have a clear vision of what they want each class to be. Somehow it’s „everyone should be able to tank, heal and be a DD“, but beyond that it’s very vague.

I think that’s the reason we seee so many baffling changes that don’t seem to follow a clear guideline. Templar stands out in that regard. The house has been burned down quite some time ago with nothing to really replace it.

technohic · May 2018

They have their vision for each I think; but with trying to hit there pace they set for content; I don’t think they take the time to really consider it. They at least have something set in mind enough to not listen to much player suggestion. Even when they address something; it’s like they literally go out of their way to avoid being similar to player suggestions.

Anazasi · May 2018

Everyone is trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Minno · May 2018

Zinaroth wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

@Zinaroth I added my other post, but I fear class balance won't come this patch. And I fear its too early to put it on the table yet. (The combat team will want to have time of backslapping and praise, after SI release, before they get back to what they call work, again).

I am still hoping they are professional enough to actually keep a list of proposals which gained major traction.

I think they will. But I have a feeling till SI drops, it's going to be largely bug fixes. So it's possible we might see the bug fixes Cinbri already mentioned get fixed or not. Have to wait till next week to see for what's in store for Templar.

Till then, keep an eye out for reps and compile anything you have now to quickly send to them when the time comes (and Gina said they made the list down to 30 people of which only 10-12 are being selected).

Joy_Division · May 2018

Feanor wrote: »

My perception is they just don’t have a clear vision of what they want each class to be. Somehow it’s „everyone should be able to tank, heal and be a DD“, but beyond that it’s very vague.

I think that’s the reason we seee so many baffling changes that don’t seem to follow a clear guideline. Templar stands out in that regard. The house has been burned down quite some time ago with nothing to really replace it.

Unfortunately I think they do have a vision.

A vision that never changes, no matter how much the game's development has rendered that vision moot.

Templars are supposed to have a "house." Here we are with "houses" while PvE content forces us to move and PvP has stuff like Eye of the Storm, which forces us to move.

Templars are not supposed to have a burst ultimate. Here we are with a terrible ultimate that nobody uses even though everyone acknowledges magplars struggle in PvE DPS and anything in PvP that's not a healbot role.

Templars are supposed to have channeled attacks. Here we are with channeled attacks that nobody uses, because magplar DPS is still terrible because of no light attacks, messed up rotations, boss DPS mechanics, and still bad at any non-healbotting role in PvP.

Templars are supposed to get their sustain from active skills on their bar. Here we are with Repentance skills that just causes fights between allies and my "sustain" skill that I have to consume resources casting every 8 seconds because the combat team and PvE development team do not effectively communicate what they other is doing.

I wish ZOS had no vision, because at least I wouldn't be burdened by outdated and obsolete mechanics that do not match how ESO has changed over time.

Neoauspex · May 2018

I wouldn't mind the "house" concept for Templars if it was a decent house... If it actually penalized your enemies for being inside it and/or rewarded your allies significantly. Minor mending and a tiny movement speed penalty is simply less effective zone of control than any Stam character with razor caltrops.

FireCowCommando · May 2018

As always great feedback on the missteps from the development team, reminds me why i left this game, and keeps me gone!

Checkmath · May 2018

Neoauspex wrote: »

I wouldn't mind the "house" concept for Templars if it was a decent house... If it actually penalized your enemies for being inside it and/or rewarded your allies significantly. Minor mending and a tiny movement speed penalty is simply less effective zone of control than any Stam character with razor caltrops.

there is only one huge problem with the house playstyle (if templars would have one): a house punishes enemies to stand in it, so stepping out of it would be the logical consequence. now templars are rather a melee class than ranged and struggle against magblades and sorcs when it comes to ranged, especially ranged burst damage. so why actually should a templar want to have the enemies out of their house, when templars are melee fighters without tools to shut down ranged enemies?

Minno · May 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

My perception is they just don’t have a clear vision of what they want each class to be. Somehow it’s „everyone should be able to tank, heal and be a DD“, but beyond that it’s very vague.

I think that’s the reason we seee so many baffling changes that don’t seem to follow a clear guideline. Templar stands out in that regard. The house has been burned down quite some time ago with nothing to really replace it.

Unfortunately I think they do have a vision.

A vision that never changes, no matter how much the game's development has rendered that vision moot.

Templars are supposed to have a "house." Here we are with "houses" while PvE content forces us to move and PvP has stuff like Eye of the Storm, which forces us to move.

Templars are not supposed to have a burst ultimate. Here we are with a terrible ultimate that nobody uses even though everyone acknowledges magplars struggle in PvE DPS and anything in PvP that's not a healbot role.

Templars are supposed to have channeled attacks. Here we are with channeled attacks that nobody uses, because magplar DPS is still terrible because of no light attacks, messed up rotations, boss DPS mechanics, and still bad at any non-healbotting role in PvP.

Templars are supposed to get their sustain from active skills on their bar. Here we are with Repentance skills that just causes fights between allies and my "sustain" skill that I have to consume resources casting every 8 seconds because the combat team and PvE development team do not effectively communicate what they other is doing.

I wish ZOS had no vision, because at least I wouldn't be burdened by outdated and obsolete mechanics that do not match how ESO has changed over time.

It's kinda funny how much more better bone shield is than blazing shield for stamplars looking to not be selfish in group content while getting what they need to "protect" their house. Major vitality plus a 100% shield for 3 people (including yourself if you happen to get the shield) in BGs, plus it only costs 3k which is substantially lower than radiant ward and wont be fighting between choosing purge or blazing shield.

But I agree. The visions don't match the game anymore.

tinythinker · May 2018

Minno wrote: »

But I agree. The visions don't match the game anymore.

It would be insightful to have a dev comment on that as they may see the game differently than some players.

Elsterchen · May 2018

Actually I did let all that happened lately sink in a bit and while i don't want to depress you @Joy_Division you might want to read and maybe communicate the following in your own unbeatable manner. Please understand this as a means to create less stress and mischieve during the coming weeks, english is not my native language and trying to keep arguments precise and and pointed does come of harsh or hard sometimes.

In the german part of the forum @ZOS_KaiSchober assured us that the DEV-team does have a plan and may share it anytime soon. Nevertheless I guess its quite apparent that the current changes to combat system are extreme and fundamentally change combat (in short: they affect all aspects of combat: Damage calculation, use of equipment, resource management). Yet only part of the "whole new concept" will go live with SI, i.e. skills and abilities as well as ressource management, or class abilities remain fairly unchanged and unadepted to the new combat system. Adding to it, a pletora of new build layouts are to be expected, given the new options with jewellery and the option of using 5-5-2 setup, no matter the weapon.

I am quite certain the representative program is oing to launch soon, and I think I speak for everyone that we expect you to be part of it.

Please ensure that you and the other representatives are not put in the position to give feedback or name pressure points when there isn't any reliable data available, yet. Imo, untill the new combat concept has not been launched in completion as well as tested by the players for a minimum of a few weeks and a clear direction was explained as to how the classes are thought to work, there just isn't anything you could note down.

I know its hard, but everything noted down up to this point ... (well honestly: up to the point when finally all aspects of combat have been adjusted to the new combat system) ... can go straight to the trash bin. All ideas, all testing is based on a combat system no longer valid once SI launches, there is no logical argument to waste time with it any further.

I hope my argument is understandable and so is my reason, feel free to discuss or disagree if there is anything I have missed.

edit: @ZOS_GinaBruno ... maybe you like to read this too and have a comment for me, least assured it would be appriciated.

Minno · May 2018

Elsterchen wrote: »

Actually I did let all that happened lately sink in a bit and while i don't want to depress you @Joy_Division you might want to read and maybe communicate the following in your own unbeatable manner. Please understand this as a means to create less stress and mischieve during the coming weeks, english is not my native language and trying to keep arguments precise and and pointed does come of harsh or hard sometimes.

In the german part of the forum @ZOS_KaiSchober assured us that the DEV-team does have a plan and may share it anytime soon. Nevertheless I guess its quite apparent that the current changes to combat system are extreme and fundamentally change combat (in short: they affect all aspects of combat: Damage calculation, use of equipment, resource management). Yet only part of the "whole new concept" will go live with SI, i.e. skills and abilities as well as ressource management, or class abilities remain fairly unchanged and unadepted to the new combat system. Adding to it, a pletora of new build layouts are to be expected, given the new options with jewellery and the option of using 5-5-2 setup, no matter the weapon.

I am quite certain the representative program is oing to launch soon, and I think I speak for everyone that we expect you to be part of it.

Please ensure that you and the other representatives are not put in the position to give feedback or name pressure points when there isn't any reliable data available, yet. Imo, untill the new combat concept has not been launched in completion as well as tested by the players for a minimum of a few weeks and a clear direction was explained as to how the classes are thought to work, there just isn't anything you could note down.

I know its hard, but everything noted down up to this point ... (well honestly: up to the point when finally all aspects of combat have been adjusted to the new combat system) ... can go straight to the trash bin. All ideas, all testing is based on a combat system no longer valid once SI launches, there is no logical argument to waste time with it any further.

I hope my argument is understandable and so is my reason, feel free to discuss or disagree if there is anything I have missed.

edit: @ZOS_GinaBruno ... maybe you like to read this too and have a comment for me, least assured it would be appriciated.

Don't you dare tease us with this new combat system!

Also, why can't someone mention to us NA dirty casuals that above info?! I feel like half the discontent can be reduced if someone just says "why we can't talk about much, but we have a plan to change things up. Stay posted!"

casparian · May 2018

@Minno I agree 100%. the responses in English have mostly been "but we did make combat changes, sorry you don't like it" -- sounds like Kai Schober gave a more understanding and helpful response.

By the way, the comment Elsterchen is talking about is here. Rough English translation:

To set some things straight: I'm proud to have shipped twelve major updates in three years. That might be taken for granted by outsiders who have gotten used to it, but behind it lies a huge amount of work. One update per quarter is said to be ambitious, non-standard and leaves little breathing room. (With all the difficulties this pace means for fundamental changes and corrections.)

With that in mind: Of course it is unpleasant when you have to wait longer for adjustments or revisions. Class balance is incomplete, set goals have yet to be achieved, other ideas have proven in practical tests to need improvement. And during the PTS phase, unfortunately, minor corrections no longer arrive immediately on the live server but have to wait for the update. Nobody wants to gloss over that.

Perhaps after the release of Summerset, the combat team will have time to comment and present the "Bigger Picture".