PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Warden Balance

Ludof · May 2018

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I would like to see this higher than Sorc parse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs1YV7eK8Qk

As for PvP, Wardens are still absolutely fine, they have so much group utility there I have no idea why you think they wouldn't be viable.

This is PvE parse.
PvE wise are "playable".

Please link us a competitive Summerset build for duels/open world PvP magden and maybe some fights not against potato players.

Thank you.

PS:
cheese build for trials with Zaan+Bear Ulti.

_Ahala_ · May 2018

They still offer no inherent class based dps buffs to trial groups and lack everything pvp players need to be successful solo

JohnStorm · May 2018

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I would like to see this higher than Sorc parse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs1YV7eK8Qk

As for PvP, Wardens are still absolutely fine, they have so much group utility there I have no idea why you think they wouldn't be viable.

Really? Being given drain + orbs (and using balance too)... Now do a petsorc parse with this kind of support and you will see the difference.

Anyways, pack your bags fellas, magden is gonna be dead for a couple more months or maybe forever.

Lynx7386 · May 2018

I'm really having a hard time believing anything zos and it's representatives say any more, they've gone back on their words and intentions so many times now. This company is so full of it.

If there was any other decent mmo on the market right now this one would be left in the dust, and all because it's designers just don't give a crap anymore.

Tryxus · May 2018

I usually keep my expectations for a next patch low. That way I won't be disappointed when I read the patch notes. But if there are no more class changes, then consider me disappointed after all.

PS ZOS: you nerfed Deep Fissure, now when are you gonna do the same to Incap?

casparian · May 2018

Tryxus wrote: »

I usually keep my expectations for a next patch low. That way I won't be disappointed when I read the patch notes. But if there are no more class changes, then consider me disappointed after all.

PS ZOS: you nerfed Deep Fissure, now when are you gonna do the same to Incap?

Same; I thought my expectations were pretty low. Turns out even "some amount of class balance changes of some kind happen" is too high a bar.

Princess_Ciri · May 2018

JohnStorm wrote: »

Really? Being given drain + orbs (and using balance too)... Now do a petsorc parse with this kind of support and you will see the difference.

Anyways, pack your bags fellas, magden is gonna be dead for a couple more months or maybe forever.

You realise in raids you would get drain and orbs? Idk why people are so against the idea that Magdens are viable. Some of the highest vmol scores in EU this patch have had magden DDs in the group, and in the new Summerset trial, Magdens are out-parsing Magsorcs.

Joxer61 · May 2018

Well crap.....after seeing those 50k parses I started levelling my Magden all over again excited about the potential. But from reading all this it kinda takes the wind out of the sails ya know? I dunno though, I tend to believe what @Princess_Ciri says in regards to Magdens so maybe there is still some hope. One can only wish and see.

Inig0 · May 2018

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

JohnStorm wrote: »

Really? Being given drain + orbs (and using balance too)... Now do a petsorc parse with this kind of support and you will see the difference.

Anyways, pack your bags fellas, magden is gonna be dead for a couple more months or maybe forever.

You realise in raids you would get drain and orbs? Idk why people are so against the idea that Magdens are viable. Some of the highest vmol scores in EU this patch have had magden DDs in the group, and in the new Summerset trial, Magdens are out-parsing Magsorcs.

some people just dont have enough chemical X in their systems.

Ludof · May 2018

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

JohnStorm wrote: »

Really? Being given drain + orbs (and using balance too)... Now do a petsorc parse with this kind of support and you will see the difference.

Anyways, pack your bags fellas, magden is gonna be dead for a couple more months or maybe forever.

You realise in raids you would get drain and orbs? Idk why people are so against the idea that Magdens are viable. Some of the highest vmol scores in EU this patch have had magden DDs in the group, and in the new Summerset trial, Magdens are out-parsing Magsorcs.

Firstly, we were mainly speaking about PvP.

Secondly, I think I know you and from your trial experience I'm pretty sure you are aware that in new trials (both AS and CR) the bear ulti/zaan are a complete joke because of the mechanics.

Anyway, without these dummy "tricks" Magden it's more viable than before but still worst than other classes.

Magblade is OP.

Joy_Division · May 2018

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

JohnStorm wrote: »

Really? Being given drain + orbs (and using balance too)... Now do a petsorc parse with this kind of support and you will see the difference.

Anyways, pack your bags fellas, magden is gonna be dead for a couple more months or maybe forever.

You realise in raids you would get drain and orbs? Idk why people are so against the idea that Magdens are viable. Some of the highest vmol scores in EU this patch have had magden DDs in the group, and in the new Summerset trial, Magdens are out-parsing Magsorcs.

For some of us, the game is more than a PvE DPS parse.

JohnStorm · May 2018

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

JohnStorm wrote: »

Really? Being given drain + orbs (and using balance too)... Now do a petsorc parse with this kind of support and you will see the difference.

Anyways, pack your bags fellas, magden is gonna be dead for a couple more months or maybe forever.

You realise in raids you would get drain and orbs? Idk why people are so against the idea that Magdens are viable. Some of the highest vmol scores in EU this patch have had magden DDs in the group, and in the new Summerset trial, Magdens are out-parsing Magsorcs.

Do magdens have the same group support that magsorcs do? Nope.
Do magdens have the damage that magblades do? Nope.

I've seen 60k+ raid parses with petsorc on live so why would magden be outdpsing a petsorc now? The class itself didn't get buffed, every mag class did. So again we have the question, would you take a magwarden over a sorc or nightblade? The answer is pretty clear. Sorc stays in the competitive scene due to their amazing group utility, and nightblades because of ultility + amazing damage. Warden's have no place in the competitive raid scene, and proof of that is the #1 scores in every trial.

Another thing, do you really think magwarden is even remotely viable without the bear ultimate?

MLGProPlayer · May 2018

@ZOS_Wrobel Thanks for listening to our feedback for over 12 months now. You've made some wonderful changes to this class. It's super competitive now, as you can see by how many wardens there are on leader boards!

Seriously though, how would you feel if you paid money for a product, only to realize the quality was substandard, and the company that sold it to you refused to bring it up to standard? That's called terrible customer service, and that's what this is right here.

MLGProPlayer · May 2018

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I would like to see this higher than Sorc parse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs1YV7eK8Qk

As for PvP, Wardens are still absolutely fine, they have so much group utility there I have no idea why you think they wouldn't be viable.

A few problems with that parse:

1. It's using Balance for a DPS boost (you can't use this skill in dungeons/trials, it's just a dummy cheese skill).
2. It uses the bear, which doesn't provide AOE damage and downright needs to be unslotted in some boss fights, shaving off 15-20% of your DPS.
3. The bear's DPS is significantly reduced in fights where it constantly dies (it's obviously not going to die in a target dummy test).

Torbschka · May 2018

Wow, I will change mine to stam warden good mode,kill every1 and tbag him without pants, so they can blame ZOS for their ignorance.

Seriously:

Many of us really contributed with great, mannered feedback, yet all they say is thx , but we dont care. Oh, but buy summerset, it will be awesomeeeeee....

No words, really. Camelot unchained, pls...

tinythinker · May 2018

Torbschka wrote: »

No words, really. Camelot unchained, pls...

Couple more years

MLGProPlayer · May 2018

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

JohnStorm wrote: »

Really? Being given drain + orbs (and using balance too)... Now do a petsorc parse with this kind of support and you will see the difference.

Anyways, pack your bags fellas, magden is gonna be dead for a couple more months or maybe forever.

You realise in raids you would get drain and orbs? Idk why people are so against the idea that Magdens are viable. Some of the highest vmol scores in EU this patch have had magden DDs in the group, and in the new Summerset trial, Magdens are out-parsing Magsorcs.

Please don't make stuff up.

MLGProPlayer · May 2018

Joxer61 wrote: »

Well crap.....after seeing those 50k parses I started levelling my Magden all over again excited about the potential. But from reading all this it kinda takes the wind out of the sails ya know? I dunno though, I tend to believe what @Princess_Ciri says in regards to Magdens so maybe there is still some hope. One can only wish and see.

Every magicka class got the same light/heavy attack buff this patch. Magicka warden is still parsing lower than every other class without the bear, and near the bottom with it. It still has no group utility either.

For magden to increase in viability, it would have needed a buff this patch, which it did not receive.

Princess_Ciri · May 2018

Inig0 wrote: »

some people just dont have enough chemical X in their systems.

mb10 · May 2018

@ZOS_GinaBruno at the end of Week 1:

"Guys, don't forget as stated in the very first paragraph, you'll begin seeing some balance adjustments next week at the earliest. This patch is mainly bug fixes."

Week 4, ZERO changes to every class let alone Mag Warden

Razorback174 · May 2018

So is that it? Are we done? Mag warden is officially the worst of the worst for the next few months?

I don't even play PvP and I still feel like it's severely lacking. The frost tree still scales entirely on health in most cases (junk for anyone not tanking)

There are buffs aplenty, but no execute, no hard CC, nothing. Even the ice staff synergizes as crap damage in overworld PvE (and again, junk for anyone not tanking).

Why does the stupid bear ult require double-barring?

Why do they keep pushing the vine skill as useful? No one in their right mind will try to aim a targeted heal in PvE. "Hey, the tank needs a heal! I'll use this skill to pull myself right into the boss's instakill AoE! Awesome!" Also it's entirely a waste of space in solo anything. Can't even heal the death-prone bear.

What is the plan ahead with this class? How do we make this class something other than a useless buff-machine? Because all I've seen so far is nerfs.

I really want to like the class. An ice-mage/druid sounds so awesome to play, but it plays like absolute trash.

Signed,
An extremely frustrated player with 3 wardens (who rolled 2 out of 3 to be mag)

Waffennacht · May 2018

I want the warden class representative to explain what they said to ZoS.

I wouldn't attack them...

I just wanna know what they were thinking and what they have planned.

Really

LeHarrt91 · May 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

I want the warden class representative to explain what they said to ZoS.

I wouldn't attack them...

I just wanna know what they were thinking and what they have planned.

Really

Pretty sure Gina said today they haven’t finalised representatives.... so there isn’t one yet.

“It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today.”

stileanima · May 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I would like to see this higher than Sorc parse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs1YV7eK8Qk

As for PvP, Wardens are still absolutely fine, they have so much group utility there I have no idea why you think they wouldn't be viable.

A few problems with that parse:

1. It's using Balance for a DPS boost (you can't use this skill in dungeons/trials, it's just a dummy cheese skill).
2. It uses the bear, which doesn't provide AOE damage and downright needs to be unslotted in some boss fights, shaving off 15-20% of your DPS.
3. The bear's DPS is significantly reduced in fights where it constantly dies (it's obviously not going to die in a target dummy test).

Lol, as the "dummy cheeser" in this video I would like to offer my two cents.

1. You CAN use Balance in dungeons and trials. I have and will continue to do so in ALL dungeons and trials, including Cloudrest, with much success! Perhaps you wouldn't in PUGs, but in coordinated teams, using Balance isn't an issue as you will have HOTs on you most of the time, which makes the fact that the skill eats a bit of your health irrelevant as you will get healed up to full after use.

2. I will use Eternal Guardian in all boss fights where possible, again, with much success! I wish the Bear were a bit sturdier though and lived against attacks like World Shaper, and didn't attract deadly mechanics such as Chain Lightning and Storm the Heavens. I really and truly hope ZOS will address and change this to make the Warden's staple PvE ultimate 100% usable in all PvE encounters.
2a. You are right, Eternal Guardian is a single target ultimate, which is what makes it my go-to in all boss fights (where it doesn't die or kill others

). For trash fights, I un-slot it and use Elemental Rage instead. This combined with Deep Fissure is incredibly potent. Deep Fissure in general is really strong in PvE, in AOE encounters.
3. It doesn't die in as many fights as you think.

Please note that the above comes from a PvE mindset, and that I do understand what others are saying when it comes to Magicka Wardens in PvE. Concerning PvE: From what I have seen, Mag Wardens are on par with Mag Sorcs and Mag DKs, and are well ahead of Mag Templars, in terms of damage output, with only Mag Nightblades parsing higher in the Summerset PTS.

Mataata · May 2018

How about give Scorch and its morphs a knockback to anyone hit by it? Then for the magicka morph make it stun after the targets land, like flame clench. Wardens really have no way to get people out of their face or any real way to set up attack strings.

LeHarrt91 · May 2018

Well i guess we now have to slot the Psijic skill Time Stop to get an on demand stun.

MLGProPlayer · May 2018

stileanima wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I would like to see this higher than Sorc parse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs1YV7eK8Qk

As for PvP, Wardens are still absolutely fine, they have so much group utility there I have no idea why you think they wouldn't be viable.

A few problems with that parse:

1. It's using Balance for a DPS boost (you can't use this skill in dungeons/trials, it's just a dummy cheese skill).
2. It uses the bear, which doesn't provide AOE damage and downright needs to be unslotted in some boss fights, shaving off 15-20% of your DPS.
3. The bear's DPS is significantly reduced in fights where it constantly dies (it's obviously not going to die in a target dummy test).

Lol, as the "dummy cheeser" in this video I would like to offer my two cents.

1. You CAN use Balance in dungeons and trials. I have and will continue to do so in ALL dungeons and trials, including Cloudrest, with much success! Perhaps you wouldn't in PUGs, but in coordinated teams, using Balance isn't an issue as you will have HOTs on you most of the time, which makes the fact that the skill eats a bit of your health irrelevant as you will get healed up to full after use.
2. I will use Eternal Guardian in all boss fights where possible, again, with much success! I wish the Bear were a bit sturdier though and lived against attacks like World Shaper, and didn't attract deadly mechanics such as Chain Lightning and Storm the Heavens. I really and truly hope ZOS will address and change this to make the Warden's staple PvE ultimate 100% usable in all PvE encounters.
2a. You are right, Eternal Guardian is a single target ultimate, which is what makes it my go-to in all boss fights (where it doesn't die or kill others ). For trash fights, I un-slot it and use Elemental Rage instead. This combined with Deep Fissure is incredibly potent. Deep Fissure in general is really strong in PvE, in AOE encounters.
3. It doesn't die in as many fights as you think.

Please note that the above comes from a PvE mindset, and that I do understand what others are saying when it comes to Magicka Wardens in PvE. Concerning PvE: From what I have seen, Mag Wardens are on par with Mag Sorcs and Mag DKs, and are well ahead of Mag Templars, in terms of damage output, with only Mag Nightblades parsing higher in the Summerset PTS.

I'm sure you can pull off using Balance in your groups, but there aren't many groups that will put up with it (not just PUGs, but even mediocre coordinated groups). And why bring a class that needs to slot Balance when other classes can give you comparable or better DPS without it? It's just an unnecessary risk.

The bear's single target damage is a handicap in boss fights with adds or multiple targets. Having destro ult is very helpful in those fights. Other classes can still pull the same DPS or higher than warden while using destro ult in all situations. By virtue of warden having a single target ultimate, it should be dealing more damage than the other classes, not the same or less.

You're probably the best warden player in the game right now, and I appreciate what you're doing. I'm not saying this isn't a good build. I'm just saying the warden still has glaring issues that make it less appealing compared to the other classes.

LeHarrt91 · May 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

stileanima wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I would like to see this higher than Sorc parse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs1YV7eK8Qk

As for PvP, Wardens are still absolutely fine, they have so much group utility there I have no idea why you think they wouldn't be viable.

A few problems with that parse:

1. It's using Balance for a DPS boost (you can't use this skill in dungeons/trials, it's just a dummy cheese skill).
2. It uses the bear, which doesn't provide AOE damage and downright needs to be unslotted in some boss fights, shaving off 15-20% of your DPS.
3. The bear's DPS is significantly reduced in fights where it constantly dies (it's obviously not going to die in a target dummy test).

Lol, as the "dummy cheeser" in this video I would like to offer my two cents.

1. You CAN use Balance in dungeons and trials. I have and will continue to do so in ALL dungeons and trials, including Cloudrest, with much success! Perhaps you wouldn't in PUGs, but in coordinated teams, using Balance isn't an issue as you will have HOTs on you most of the time, which makes the fact that the skill eats a bit of your health irrelevant as you will get healed up to full after use.
2. I will use Eternal Guardian in all boss fights where possible, again, with much success! I wish the Bear were a bit sturdier though and lived against attacks like World Shaper, and didn't attract deadly mechanics such as Chain Lightning and Storm the Heavens. I really and truly hope ZOS will address and change this to make the Warden's staple PvE ultimate 100% usable in all PvE encounters.
2a. You are right, Eternal Guardian is a single target ultimate, which is what makes it my go-to in all boss fights (where it doesn't die or kill others ). For trash fights, I un-slot it and use Elemental Rage instead. This combined with Deep Fissure is incredibly potent. Deep Fissure in general is really strong in PvE, in AOE encounters.
3. It doesn't die in as many fights as you think.

Please note that the above comes from a PvE mindset, and that I do understand what others are saying when it comes to Magicka Wardens in PvE. Concerning PvE: From what I have seen, Mag Wardens are on par with Mag Sorcs and Mag DKs, and are well ahead of Mag Templars, in terms of damage output, with only Mag Nightblades parsing higher in the Summerset PTS.

I'm sure you can pull off using Balance in your groups, but there aren't many groups that will put up with it (not just PUGs, but even mediocre coordinated groups). And why bring a class that needs to slot Balance when other classes can give you comparable or better DPS without it? It's just an unnecessary risk.

The bear's single target damage is a handicap in boss fights with adds or multiple targets. Having destro ult is very helpful in those fights. Other classes can still pull the same DPS or higher than warden while using destro ult in all situations. By virtue of warden having a single target ultimate, it should be dealing more damage than the other classes, not the same or less.

And i think thats where so many people are at with this class, like me i dont want to slot the bear in most vet content. I want the choice of 2 different ultimates, during the same fight. I feel like making non bear ulti MagDen viable would go a long way to start with.

MLGProPlayer · May 2018

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

stileanima wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I would like to see this higher than Sorc parse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs1YV7eK8Qk

As for PvP, Wardens are still absolutely fine, they have so much group utility there I have no idea why you think they wouldn't be viable.

A few problems with that parse:

1. It's using Balance for a DPS boost (you can't use this skill in dungeons/trials, it's just a dummy cheese skill).
2. It uses the bear, which doesn't provide AOE damage and downright needs to be unslotted in some boss fights, shaving off 15-20% of your DPS.
3. The bear's DPS is significantly reduced in fights where it constantly dies (it's obviously not going to die in a target dummy test).

Lol, as the "dummy cheeser" in this video I would like to offer my two cents.

1. You CAN use Balance in dungeons and trials. I have and will continue to do so in ALL dungeons and trials, including Cloudrest, with much success! Perhaps you wouldn't in PUGs, but in coordinated teams, using Balance isn't an issue as you will have HOTs on you most of the time, which makes the fact that the skill eats a bit of your health irrelevant as you will get healed up to full after use.
2. I will use Eternal Guardian in all boss fights where possible, again, with much success! I wish the Bear were a bit sturdier though and lived against attacks like World Shaper, and didn't attract deadly mechanics such as Chain Lightning and Storm the Heavens. I really and truly hope ZOS will address and change this to make the Warden's staple PvE ultimate 100% usable in all PvE encounters.
2a. You are right, Eternal Guardian is a single target ultimate, which is what makes it my go-to in all boss fights (where it doesn't die or kill others ). For trash fights, I un-slot it and use Elemental Rage instead. This combined with Deep Fissure is incredibly potent. Deep Fissure in general is really strong in PvE, in AOE encounters.
3. It doesn't die in as many fights as you think.

Please note that the above comes from a PvE mindset, and that I do understand what others are saying when it comes to Magicka Wardens in PvE. Concerning PvE: From what I have seen, Mag Wardens are on par with Mag Sorcs and Mag DKs, and are well ahead of Mag Templars, in terms of damage output, with only Mag Nightblades parsing higher in the Summerset PTS.

I'm sure you can pull off using Balance in your groups, but there aren't many groups that will put up with it (not just PUGs, but even mediocre coordinated groups). And why bring a class that needs to slot Balance when other classes can give you comparable or better DPS without it? It's just an unnecessary risk.

The bear's single target damage is a handicap in boss fights with adds or multiple targets. Having destro ult is very helpful in those fights. Other classes can still pull the same DPS or higher than warden while using destro ult in all situations. By virtue of warden having a single target ultimate, it should be dealing more damage than the other classes, not the same or less.

And i think thats where so many people are at with this class, like me i dont want to slot the bear in most vet content. I want the choice of 2 different ultimates, during the same fight. I feel like making non bear ulti MagDen viable would go a long way to start with.

I wouldn't mind using the bear if it provided some advantage. But all it does is allows me to match the DPS of the other classes, without the AOE damage and consistency (since bear has survivability, pathing, or mechanics-related issues in some fights). The bear ultimate should allow magicka wardens to pull significantly higher DPS than the other magicka classes to compensate for the fact that you are using an inconsistent single target ultimate.

LeHarrt91 · May 2018

Since magicka damage doesnt have a secondary effect and frost damage has a defensive effect could they boost the Piercing Cold passive.. hell even double it lol. This would not effect the Stamina warden in PVP.