PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Warden Balance

Ludof

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ludof wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

You guys need to chill, Warden is doing fine in PvE and if you want to play one, then go and play it. It does decent damage and it is out parsing sorcs for the most part as someone mention. And someone mentioned you take sorcs for the group utility, well that is obvious, but you only need 1 sorc

As for needing an AoE ultimate, you guys know that on pretty much every boss now you have 3 and sometimes 4 nightblades that just use Soul Harvest throughout the whole fight?

As for this argument about using balance, I don't see what the issue is, it gives you resistances, it gives you magicka, you just have to use it and be smart about using it if you happen to die with balance it is because of yourself.

And a couple videos of Wardens;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0__egIvd8T0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxDIeVzpVo

https://prnt.sc/ix8yz5
https://prnt.sc/j1uily

Some people just like to scream that something is bad because of the popular crowd response, but really it's perfectly fine, most people just don't like how clunky some of the animations are for the class. Not every group needs a Warden in it. Wardens will make pretty good healers next patch though

We've been speaking about PvP mainly.

PvE wise I still prefer Magblade or Sorc.
Bear ulti gives you comparable dps (or slightly superior DPS), while giving up the AoE damage.

Nope. People are talking about PvE and PvP in this thread.

I just saw in furst posts people complaining about PvP and then discussion turned to PvE too.

Actually I think that PvE wise Magden is by far better than PvP experience.

PvP needs some serious changes...

MLGProPlayer

Ludof wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ludof wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

You guys need to chill, Warden is doing fine in PvE and if you want to play one, then go and play it. It does decent damage and it is out parsing sorcs for the most part as someone mention. And someone mentioned you take sorcs for the group utility, well that is obvious, but you only need 1 sorc

As for needing an AoE ultimate, you guys know that on pretty much every boss now you have 3 and sometimes 4 nightblades that just use Soul Harvest throughout the whole fight?

As for this argument about using balance, I don't see what the issue is, it gives you resistances, it gives you magicka, you just have to use it and be smart about using it if you happen to die with balance it is because of yourself.

And a couple videos of Wardens;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0__egIvd8T0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxDIeVzpVo

https://prnt.sc/ix8yz5
https://prnt.sc/j1uily

Some people just like to scream that something is bad because of the popular crowd response, but really it's perfectly fine, most people just don't like how clunky some of the animations are for the class. Not every group needs a Warden in it. Wardens will make pretty good healers next patch though

We've been speaking about PvP mainly.

PvE wise I still prefer Magblade or Sorc.
Bear ulti gives you comparable dps (or slightly superior DPS), while giving up the AoE damage.

Nope. People are talking about PvE and PvP in this thread.

I just saw in furst posts people complaining about PvP and then discussion turned to PvE too.

Actually I think that PvE wise Magden is by far better than PvP experience.

PvP needs some serious changes...

You think 2% representation on PvE leader boards is good?

LeHarrt91

Joy_Division wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

You guys need to chill, Warden is doing fine in PvE and if you want to play one, then go and play it. It does decent damage and it is out parsing sorcs for the most part as someone mention. And someone mentioned you take sorcs for the group utility, well that is obvious, but you only need 1 sorc

As for needing an AoE ultimate, you guys know that on pretty much every boss now you have 3 and sometimes 4 nightblades that just use Soul Harvest throughout the whole fight?

As for this argument about using balance, I don't see what the issue is, it gives you resistances, it gives you magicka, you just have to use it and be smart about using it if you happen to die with balance it is because of yourself.

And a couple videos of Wardens;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0__egIvd8T0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxDIeVzpVo

https://prnt.sc/ix8yz5
https://prnt.sc/j1uily

Some people just like to scream that something is bad because of the popular crowd response, but really it's perfectly fine, most people just don't like how clunky some of the animations are for the class. Not every group needs a Warden in it. Wardens will make pretty good healers next patch though

Why bother playing a warden if only 3 of the 10 skills being used are Warden skills?

And you lose out on % damage with Advanced Species not using Animal Companion skills.

Joxer61

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

"What's the point of bringing a class that needs to use Balance to achieve competitive DPS, when you can bring another class that doesn't need it?"


Here a thought...how about the simple reason of people playing what they want?
Exact same reason I left GW2....the "meta" telling you what you can and cant play. Sad to see that its here as well.....damn MMO disease it is.

"And NBs that use Soul Harvest achieve MUCH higher DPS than wardens that use bear. That's what a single target ultimate should give you: superior DPS. Warden bear only gives you comparable DPS to other classes, not superior. You're giving up AOE for no benefit."

The you play your NB...and let others play Warden if they wish. Why does it have to your way or the highway?

I want warden to be viable. Not sure why want it to be mediocre. By buffing wardens, they become more enjoyable for everyone.

On that I am with you 100%!! But you don't achieve that by knocking those that play em, that's all. All we can hope for is that ZOS does something. But if they are anything like ANET and GW2, it wont happen for a looonnnggg time. Its a curse I swear!!

All of us complaining here are warden mains. We're just pointing out how far behind the other classes warden is to illustrate to ZOS that it needs serious buffs.

I too am trying/hoping to make it my main but don't want to invest into a toon only to get faced with constant kicks cuz you are seen as subpar. Does that happen here? GW2 you join a raid group and not be "meta", insta-kick...not fun, ever. Now if that's not an issue here I will persevere as I can handle some flaming for playing something "unpopular".

MLGProPlayer

Joxer61 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

"What's the point of bringing a class that needs to use Balance to achieve competitive DPS, when you can bring another class that doesn't need it?"


Here a thought...how about the simple reason of people playing what they want?
Exact same reason I left GW2....the "meta" telling you what you can and cant play. Sad to see that its here as well.....damn MMO disease it is.

"And NBs that use Soul Harvest achieve MUCH higher DPS than wardens that use bear. That's what a single target ultimate should give you: superior DPS. Warden bear only gives you comparable DPS to other classes, not superior. You're giving up AOE for no benefit."

The you play your NB...and let others play Warden if they wish. Why does it have to your way or the highway?

I want warden to be viable. Not sure why want it to be mediocre. By buffing wardens, they become more enjoyable for everyone.

On that I am with you 100%!! But you don't achieve that by knocking those that play em, that's all. All we can hope for is that ZOS does something. But if they are anything like ANET and GW2, it wont happen for a looonnnggg time. Its a curse I swear!!

All of us complaining here are warden mains. We're just pointing out how far behind the other classes warden is to illustrate to ZOS that it needs serious buffs.

I too am trying/hoping to make it my main but don't want to invest into a toon only to get faced with constant kicks cuz you are seen as subpar. Does that happen here? GW2 you join a raid group and not be "meta", insta-kick...not fun, ever. Now if that's not an issue here I will persevere as I can handle some flaming for playing something "unpopular".

If your goal is competitive raiding, be prepared for some resistance. A lot of progression groups will ask you to switch to something else. If you're already an established player who has the group's trust, you can run whatever you want (although if you're going for high scores, you'll likely want to switch to something better).

If your goal isn't competitive raiding, you'll be fine. You can complete all content with a magicka warden. It's just harder than it needs to be.

Vaoh

Joxer61 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

"What's the point of bringing a class that needs to use Balance to achieve competitive DPS, when you can bring another class that doesn't need it?"


Here a thought...how about the simple reason of people playing what they want?
Exact same reason I left GW2....the "meta" telling you what you can and cant play. Sad to see that its here as well.....damn MMO disease it is.

"And NBs that use Soul Harvest achieve MUCH higher DPS than wardens that use bear. That's what a single target ultimate should give you: superior DPS. Warden bear only gives you comparable DPS to other classes, not superior. You're giving up AOE for no benefit."

The you play your NB...and let others play Warden if they wish. Why does it have to your way or the highway?

I want warden to be viable. Not sure why want it to be mediocre. By buffing wardens, they become more enjoyable for everyone.

On that I am with you 100%!! But you don't achieve that by knocking those that play em, that's all. All we can hope for is that ZOS does something. But if they are anything like ANET and GW2, it wont happen for a looonnnggg time. Its a curse I swear!!

All of us complaining here are warden mains. We're just pointing out how far behind the other classes warden is to illustrate to ZOS that it needs serious buffs.

I too am trying/hoping to make it my main but don't want to invest into a toon only to get faced with constant kicks cuz you are seen as subpar. Does that happen here? GW2 you join a raid group and not be "meta", insta-kick...not fun, ever. Now if that's not an issue here I will persevere as I can handle some flaming for playing something "unpopular".

That will all depend on the people you play with tbh. There are nice groups, there are groups that are annoyed but will sometimes allow you to choose a subpar spec (depending on the run), and then there are very strict guilds which don’t allow any flexibility and tend to be cult-like lol. Choose the type you want I guess

What you really have to ask yourself is: How can I most benefit my group?
Am I picking this class because it will allow my team to do best, or because of a selfish decision that I know my friends won’t call me out on?

Lastly if it’s not a serious run and/or score run, it does not matter what you use. Effectiveness is not important during a “fun run”.

Ludof

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ludof wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ludof wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

You guys need to chill, Warden is doing fine in PvE and if you want to play one, then go and play it. It does decent damage and it is out parsing sorcs for the most part as someone mention. And someone mentioned you take sorcs for the group utility, well that is obvious, but you only need 1 sorc

As for needing an AoE ultimate, you guys know that on pretty much every boss now you have 3 and sometimes 4 nightblades that just use Soul Harvest throughout the whole fight?

As for this argument about using balance, I don't see what the issue is, it gives you resistances, it gives you magicka, you just have to use it and be smart about using it if you happen to die with balance it is because of yourself.

And a couple videos of Wardens;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0__egIvd8T0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxDIeVzpVo

https://prnt.sc/ix8yz5
https://prnt.sc/j1uily

Some people just like to scream that something is bad because of the popular crowd response, but really it's perfectly fine, most people just don't like how clunky some of the animations are for the class. Not every group needs a Warden in it. Wardens will make pretty good healers next patch though

We've been speaking about PvP mainly.

PvE wise I still prefer Magblade or Sorc.
Bear ulti gives you comparable dps (or slightly superior DPS), while giving up the AoE damage.

Nope. People are talking about PvE and PvP in this thread.

I just saw in furst posts people complaining about PvP and then discussion turned to PvE too.

Actually I think that PvE wise Magden is by far better than PvP experience.

PvP needs some serious changes...

You think 2% representation on PvE leader boards is good?

NO and NO.
Magden needs some love in both cases.

Just add 1 Class CC, let Bear Ulti be 1 slot, make adjustments in Chill/ice damage active/passive skills (too weak compared to burning).

That's the easy part to let it be playable for next months untill they find out something better...

Joxer61

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

"What's the point of bringing a class that needs to use Balance to achieve competitive DPS, when you can bring another class that doesn't need it?"


Here a thought...how about the simple reason of people playing what they want?
Exact same reason I left GW2....the "meta" telling you what you can and cant play. Sad to see that its here as well.....damn MMO disease it is.

"And NBs that use Soul Harvest achieve MUCH higher DPS than wardens that use bear. That's what a single target ultimate should give you: superior DPS. Warden bear only gives you comparable DPS to other classes, not superior. You're giving up AOE for no benefit."

The you play your NB...and let others play Warden if they wish. Why does it have to your way or the highway?

I want warden to be viable. Not sure why want it to be mediocre. By buffing wardens, they become more enjoyable for everyone.

On that I am with you 100%!! But you don't achieve that by knocking those that play em, that's all. All we can hope for is that ZOS does something. But if they are anything like ANET and GW2, it wont happen for a looonnnggg time. Its a curse I swear!!

All of us complaining here are warden mains. We're just pointing out how far behind the other classes warden is to illustrate to ZOS that it needs serious buffs.

I too am trying/hoping to make it my main but don't want to invest into a toon only to get faced with constant kicks cuz you are seen as subpar. Does that happen here? GW2 you join a raid group and not be "meta", insta-kick...not fun, ever. Now if that's not an issue here I will persevere as I can handle some flaming for playing something "unpopular".

If your goal isn't competitive raiding, you'll be fine. You can complete all content with a magicka warden. It's just harder than it needs to be.

yea, this. I did the competitive junk in WOW for like 8 years, not going back. Time to play for fun (to be fair it was fun when we did well!) so yea, if the community is accepting on a casual basis then thats great! Cheers!

Joxer61

Who knows...with the addition of Morrowwind to SS purchases I am seeing a huge influx of Wardens in the Vvlan starting area. Maybe that's a good ting? Could go either way...more people like the class and thus more numbers or, they think it blows and it stays as is. Always hate when a company introduces a class then does nothing with it. GW2 did exactly that with Revenant class, brought in with their Heart of thorns expact. The class to this day (2+ yrs?) sucks and has seen very little if any love from the devs. Lets hope Warden doesn't fall to this, that would just be sad.

LeHarrt91

Joxer61 wrote: »

Who knows...with the addition of Morrowwind to SS purchases I am seeing a huge influx of Wardens in the Vvlan starting area. Maybe that's a good ting? Could go either way...more people like the class and thus more numbers or, they think it blows and it stays as is. Always hate when a company introduces a class then does nothing with it. GW2 did exactly that with Revenant class, brought in with their Heart of thorns expact. The class to this day (2+ yrs?) sucks and has seen very little if any love from the devs. Lets hope Warden doesn't fall to this, that would just be sad.

Well were already one year in

and thats not to say its bad in all aspects, they are viable tanks and healers.

Joxer61

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Who knows...with the addition of Morrowwind to SS purchases I am seeing a huge influx of Wardens in the Vvlan starting area. Maybe that's a good ting? Could go either way...more people like the class and thus more numbers or, they think it blows and it stays as is. Always hate when a company introduces a class then does nothing with it. GW2 did exactly that with Revenant class, brought in with their Heart of thorns expact. The class to this day (2+ yrs?) sucks and has seen very little if any love from the devs. Lets hope Warden doesn't fall to this, that would just be sad.

Well were already one year in

Just ouch...........

LeHarrt91

Joxer61 wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Who knows...with the addition of Morrowwind to SS purchases I am seeing a huge influx of Wardens in the Vvlan starting area. Maybe that's a good ting? Could go either way...more people like the class and thus more numbers or, they think it blows and it stays as is. Always hate when a company introduces a class then does nothing with it. GW2 did exactly that with Revenant class, brought in with their Heart of thorns expact. The class to this day (2+ yrs?) sucks and has seen very little if any love from the devs. Lets hope Warden doesn't fall to this, that would just be sad.

Well were already one year in

Just ouch...........

Because they were introduced with Battleground they were great in PVP and BGs, but they lacked in DPS for PVE. But they have received PVP nerfs and no/ not many pve buffs so they are now less effective in PVP (magicka warden) and basically in the same position they have been in for PVE.

Liko

I read some the recent stuff, so I thought I'd post my thoughts about MagWarden for this and next patch. This will be from a PVE perspective, although I understand a lot of the disappointment is from a PVP perspective.

So the recently linked MagWarden videos are those uploaded by me. For those who read/did not read the description, I did mean to imply that I switched from Magsorc to Magwarden late into my guild's vMOL progression to improve overall group dps. I know that it can be something that is really hard to believe.

Here are the reasons why I switched to MagWarden for the team's progression in the Dragon Bones patch:

1. In Trash fights, they keep guard on a Magicka DD - I prioritize those who I know are going to drop a Destro Ultimate next. MagWarden also does a pretty mean job in Trash with Deep Fissure.
2. They can keep higher minor vulnerability uptimes than any other class due to the nature of the Magwarden rotation - super important for groups that do not use Aether.
3. They provide major slayer in boss fights(this can enable a Magblade can go full selfish with BSW)
4. In certain boss fights they can also guard other players.

By dropping a Magsorc, you lose out on the Storm Atro (a Pet which gives Major Berserk, which only does Single Target DPS - sound familiar?) You also lose a conduit synergy and Minor Prophecy (no issues at all if you already have a MagSorc in the group). Basically - if you already have a MagSorc - is a second Magsorc better than a Magwarden? No - not necessarily.

Personally, my single target DPS between MagWarden and MagSorc is pretty similar - for a lot of fights my MagWarden is ahead and I feel that I can play them both equally as well on the Dragon Bones patch (I have vMOL Magsorc vids if anyone wants to bother to compare).

Even in vAS HM, where I played without a bear, I found the damage potential to be greater than a MagSorc. Sadly I don't have any parses to back this up.

As a former console player, I appreciate that the MagWarden isn't nearly as attractive to play on these platforms. The dots can be hard to track, and having to change abilities (and also gear) can make it difficult and not worth the hassle. Totally valid, but that is as much to do with the game design itself rather than the class.


Now looking forward to Summerset, here is what pushes MagWardens higher up the pack, with my opinion that only Magblades are definitely stronger, with MagWardens and MagSorcs roughly level. (I have been involved with testing for each of the magicka classes in the recent patches so I hope that these views can be useful):

1. Elemental Weapon is a spammable which scales as Magic Damage. Piercing cold passive gives 6% magic damage increase - pretty big deal, and combine that with the fact that MagWarden's still spend the most time out of all magicka ranged classes casting their spammables its a great combo. Using Equilibrium is also not such bad DPS now, since it empowers your next light attack by 40%.
2. The ability to use two 5 pieces and a monster set piece (meaning to drop the asylum staff for elemental weapon as spammable). This is interesting because not all classes seem to improve with this change. Non-pet MagSorcs do not benefit massively from this change - their rotation is harder to line up with acuity, and they have to refresh their dots more frequently, so their burst potential in raid is really not as high. Something that makes a non-pet sorc still appealing is that they can achieve respectable DPS, whilst providing minor vulnerability for the group if they continue to use the Asylum Staff.
3. Pet usage - it's no secret that the MagWarden DPS suffers from having to unslot their bear. But at the moment, Pet MagSorcs with Necropotence are pulling higher DPS compared to non-pet using. For fights where pets cannot be used, the different between non-pet MagWarden and non-pet MagSorc will have narrowed in Summerset compared to live (as things stand).
4. Magicka Nightblades are only clearly better than MagWardens when they also use Elemental Weapon as a spammable. What I mean is, a funnel-healthing Magblade is actually very similar to a MagWarden using Elemental Weapon, but admittedly the off-healing is a nice thing to have, as well as being able to choose between soul harvest and another ultimate.
5. Magicka Templars need love more so than the Warden - they are almost certainly the least competitive class. Jesus beam still isn't worth slotting.
6. DPS-wise MagWarden and MagDKs are pretty similar - MagDK will provide a different level of group support (nothing much if you already have a source of engulfing flames) and are less affected by high mobility fights than MagWardens.


I completely agree that MagWardens could do with some improvements (at least Quality of Life) with respect to PVE, which sadly does not seem to be coming for Summerset. Most important thing is that MagWarden's are a fully viable class, with some people ruling it out based on outdated information/findings. Balancing MagWarden is somewhat a tricky act - so much of their DPS potential is based around the bear. If non-bear skills were to be buffed - MagWarden can easily become very strong. Something as simple as making the bear more robust or less of a burden in certain situations would make it much nicer to play for a lot of people.

I won't mention anything from a PVP perspective since I do not play MagWarden in PVP.

Mojomonkeyman

Liko wrote: »

I read some the recent stuff, so I thought I'd post my thoughts about MagWarden for this and next patch. This will be from a PVE perspective, although I understand a lot of the disappointment is from a PVP perspective.

So the recently linked MagWarden videos are those uploaded by me. For those who read/did not read the description, I did mean to imply that I switched from Magsorc to Magwarden late into my guild's vMOL progression to improve overall group dps. I know that it can be something that is really hard to believe.

Here are the reasons why I switched to MagWarden for the team's progression in the Dragon Bones patch:

1. In Trash fights, they keep guard on a Magicka DD - I prioritize those who I know are going to drop a Destro Ultimate next. MagWarden also does a pretty mean job in Trash with Deep Fissure.
2. They can keep higher minor vulnerability uptimes than any other class due to the nature of the Magwarden rotation - super important for groups that do not use Aether.
3. They provide major slayer in boss fights(this can enable a Magblade can go full selfish with BSW)
4. In certain boss fights they can also guard other players.

By dropping a Magsorc, you lose out on the Storm Atro (a Pet which gives Major Berserk, which only does Single Target DPS - sound familiar?) You also lose a conduit synergy and Minor Prophecy (no issues at all if you already have a MagSorc in the group). Basically - if you already have a MagSorc - is a second Magsorc better than a Magwarden? No - not necessarily.

Personally, my single target DPS between MagWarden and MagSorc is pretty similar - for a lot of fights my MagWarden is ahead and I feel that I can play them both equally as well on the Dragon Bones patch (I have vMOL Magsorc vids if anyone wants to bother to compare).

Even in vAS HM, where I played without a bear, I found the damage potential to be greater than a MagSorc. Sadly I don't have any parses to back this up.

As a former console player, I appreciate that the MagWarden isn't nearly as attractive to play on these platforms. The dots can be hard to track, and having to change abilities (and also gear) can make it difficult and not worth the hassle. Totally valid, but that is as much to do with the game design itself rather than the class.


Now looking forward to Summerset, here is what pushes MagWardens higher up the pack, with my opinion that only Magblades are definitely stronger, with MagWardens and MagSorcs roughly level. (I have been involved with testing for each of the magicka classes in the recent patches so I hope that these views can be useful):

1. Elemental Weapon is a spammable which scales as Magic Damage. Piercing cold passive gives 6% magic damage increase - pretty big deal, and combine that with the fact that MagWarden's still spend the most time out of all magicka ranged classes casting their spammables its a great combo. Using Equilibrium is also not such bad DPS now, since it empowers your next light attack by 40%.
2. The ability to use two 5 pieces and a monster set piece (meaning to drop the asylum staff for elemental weapon as spammable). This is interesting because not all classes seem to improve with this change. Non-pet MagSorcs do not benefit massively from this change - their rotation is harder to line up with acuity, and they have to refresh their dots more frequently, so their burst potential in raid is really not as high. Something that makes a non-pet sorc still appealing is that they can achieve respectable DPS, whilst providing minor vulnerability for the group if they continue to use the Asylum Staff.
3. Pet usage - it's no secret that the MagWarden DPS suffers from having to unslot their bear. But at the moment, Pet MagSorcs with Necropotence are pulling higher DPS compared to non-pet using. For fights where pets cannot be used, the different between non-pet MagWarden and non-pet MagSorc will have narrowed in Summerset compared to live (as things stand).
4. Magicka Nightblades are only clearly better than MagWardens when they also use Elemental Weapon as a spammable. What I mean is, a funnel-healthing Magblade is actually very similar to a MagWarden using Elemental Weapon, but admittedly the off-healing is a nice thing to have, as well as being able to choose between soul harvest and another ultimate.
5. Magicka Templars need love more so than the Warden - they are almost certainly the least competitive class. Jesus beam still isn't worth slotting.
6. DPS-wise MagWarden and MagDKs are pretty similar - MagDK will provide a different level of group support (nothing much if you already have a source of engulfing flames) and are less affected by high mobility fights than MagWardens.


I completely agree that MagWardens could do with some improvements (at least Quality of Life) with respect to PVE, which sadly does not seem to be coming for Summerset. Most important thing is that MagWarden's are a fully viable class, with some people ruling it out based on outdated information/findings. Balancing MagWarden is somewhat a tricky act - so much of their DPS potential is based around the bear. If non-bear skills were to be buffed - MagWarden can easily become very strong. Something as simple as making the bear more robust or less of a burden in certain situations would make it much nicer to play for a lot of people.

I won't mention anything from a PVP perspective since I do not play MagWarden in PVP.

I cannot share your optimism when thinking about my PvP MagWarden. Kudos to ZOS for at least not taking away from the current performance of PvE MagWarden. But honestly, my MagWarden is completely crippled now compared to a year ago and even then we were outshined by our stamina counterpart.

I feel the current ZOS focus on improving PvE MagWarden DPS & QOL and the feedback being given (mainly by PvE guilds such as yours) by the community is one of the reasons PvP MagWarden is taking so much beating in regards to their PvP skills. Example: Birds now have lost the ability to be lined up for PvP burst, but become easier to manage for PvE spam. Same goes for Fissure stun, which is useless to PvE players anyways.

It's a shame.

Millz

Dyride wrote: »

Cliff Racer should have a snare associated with it if they are going to drop the stun from magicka Shalks.

i second this or just give us a passive snare

Vaoh

Liko wrote: »

I read some the recent stuff, so I thought I'd post my thoughts about MagWarden for this and next patch. This will be from a PVE perspective, although I understand a lot of the disappointment is from a PVP perspective.

So the recently linked MagWarden videos are those uploaded by me. For those who read/did not read the description, I did mean to imply that I switched from Magsorc to Magwarden late into my guild's vMOL progression to improve overall group dps. I know that it can be something that is really hard to believe.

Here are the reasons why I switched to MagWarden for the team's progression in the Dragon Bones patch:

1. In Trash fights, they keep guard on a Magicka DD - I prioritize those who I know are going to drop a Destro Ultimate next. MagWarden also does a pretty mean job in Trash with Deep Fissure.
2. They can keep higher minor vulnerability uptimes than any other class due to the nature of the Magwarden rotation - super important for groups that do not use Aether.
3. They provide major slayer in boss fights(this can enable a Magblade can go full selfish with BSW)
4. In certain boss fights they can also guard other players.

By dropping a Magsorc, you lose out on the Storm Atro (a Pet which gives Major Berserk, which only does Single Target DPS - sound familiar?) You also lose a conduit synergy and Minor Prophecy (no issues at all if you already have a MagSorc in the group). Basically - if you already have a MagSorc - is a second Magsorc better than a Magwarden? No - not necessarily.

Personally, my single target DPS between MagWarden and MagSorc is pretty similar - for a lot of fights my MagWarden is ahead and I feel that I can play them both equally as well on the Dragon Bones patch (I have vMOL Magsorc vids if anyone wants to bother to compare).

Even in vAS HM, where I played without a bear, I found the damage potential to be greater than a MagSorc. Sadly I don't have any parses to back this up.

As a former console player, I appreciate that the MagWarden isn't nearly as attractive to play on these platforms. The dots can be hard to track, and having to change abilities (and also gear) can make it difficult and not worth the hassle. Totally valid, but that is as much to do with the game design itself rather than the class.


Now looking forward to Summerset, here is what pushes MagWardens higher up the pack, with my opinion that only Magblades are definitely stronger, with MagWardens and MagSorcs roughly level. (I have been involved with testing for each of the magicka classes in the recent patches so I hope that these views can be useful):

1. Elemental Weapon is a spammable which scales as Magic Damage. Piercing cold passive gives 6% magic damage increase - pretty big deal, and combine that with the fact that MagWarden's still spend the most time out of all magicka ranged classes casting their spammables its a great combo. Using Equilibrium is also not such bad DPS now, since it empowers your next light attack by 40%.
2. The ability to use two 5 pieces and a monster set piece (meaning to drop the asylum staff for elemental weapon as spammable). This is interesting because not all classes seem to improve with this change. Non-pet MagSorcs do not benefit massively from this change - their rotation is harder to line up with acuity, and they have to refresh their dots more frequently, so their burst potential in raid is really not as high. Something that makes a non-pet sorc still appealing is that they can achieve respectable DPS, whilst providing minor vulnerability for the group if they continue to use the Asylum Staff.
3. Pet usage - it's no secret that the MagWarden DPS suffers from having to unslot their bear. But at the moment, Pet MagSorcs with Necropotence are pulling higher DPS compared to non-pet using. For fights where pets cannot be used, the different between non-pet MagWarden and non-pet MagSorc will have narrowed in Summerset compared to live (as things stand).
4. Magicka Nightblades are only clearly better than MagWardens when they also use Elemental Weapon as a spammable. What I mean is, a funnel-healthing Magblade is actually very similar to a MagWarden using Elemental Weapon, but admittedly the off-healing is a nice thing to have, as well as being able to choose between soul harvest and another ultimate.
5. Magicka Templars need love more so than the Warden - they are almost certainly the least competitive class. Jesus beam still isn't worth slotting.
6. DPS-wise MagWarden and MagDKs are pretty similar - MagDK will provide a different level of group support (nothing much if you already have a source of engulfing flames) and are less affected by high mobility fights than MagWardens.


I completely agree that MagWardens could do with some improvements (at least Quality of Life) with respect to PVE, which sadly does not seem to be coming for Summerset. Most important thing is that MagWarden's are a fully viable class, with some people ruling it out based on outdated information/findings. Balancing MagWarden is somewhat a tricky act - so much of their DPS potential is based around the bear. If non-bear skills were to be buffed - MagWarden can easily become very strong. Something as simple as making the bear more robust or less of a burden in certain situations would make it much nicer to play for a lot of people.

I won't mention anything from a PVP perspective since I do not play MagWarden in PVP.

^^Very good post @Liko

Truthfully, there is a large disconnect here between the way you play and many guilds who aren’t as skilled, or who simply don’t have add-ons (all of console).

Warden is great vs Rakkhat because your passives enhance prismatic glyphs so much. I’ve noticed this much on console too. Also Elemental Weapon will def be huge for Mag Warden in particular like you say (out of curiosity, do you frontbar Crushing Shock in place of a different skill in order to maintain Destro passives?). Another fun fact about Rakkhat in particular is that Crystallized Shield will effectively negate the “popcorn” damage which is AWESOME if helping a pug group lol (plus Shimmering Shield -> free Ult).

If Mag Sorc is still forced to use an Asylum Staff, it’s no wonder a Mag Warden’s DPS can be comparatively higher now (assuming Eternal Guardian is slotted). The set bonus changes will benefit Mag Warden far more too.

You switched to Warden in vMoL because you could slot Stalwart Guard and even unslot Eternal Guardian in place of Northern Storm/Destro Ult the moment you want to. It wouldn’t surprise me if you swapped gear too..... for console, none of this is an option. It would take manually switching stuff up and wasting lots of time in my *laggy and slow* inventory to change anything on console. A lot of times it can mess up your game based on the trial and it’s even possible to increase chance of crashing if you swap stuff when it’s laggy. Lastly in CWC/Dragon Bones, new bugs have been introduced that act very weirdly when new skills are slotted which cause skill icons to rarely fail to update unless re-slotted.

To think that Mag Warden’s usefulness is only guaranteed after you have a Sorc is sad to hear. It will legit be myself and like two other players who will make up the full population of Mag Wardens who are effective on my server

I’m glad you recognize that too much power of this class is reliant on the bear.... which needs to die less. Capping its direct damage taken at like 25-33% and DoT damage taken at 5-10% in trials would solve many of its issues. I completely agree that non-pet DPS needs to definitely increase, and personally I think this is the largest PvE issue of this class. However, too much of a Warden’s effectiveness is based on swapping out skills out as well..... that should never be the case at least imo. Also their effectiveness is based on DoT uptime using a dynamic rotation - pretty much no one can do this in console, and the small population that can will fail in a real trial. Warden DPS is better on PC simply due to the DoT timers.

In terms of PvP..... there is so much to say that I’d rather not start on that lol. Stick to PvE. Just remember to take into account how PvE changes will positively or negatively impact PvP as a result.

MLGProPlayer

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

given (mainly by PvE guilds such as yours) by the community is one of the reasons PvP MagWarden is taking so much beating in regards to their PvP skills. It's a shame. Example: Birds now have lost the ability to be lined up for PvP burst, but become easier to manage for PvE spam. Same goes for Fissure stun, which is useless to PvE players anyways.

They haven't buffed PvE warden at all...

All their "buffs" this patch are blanket buffs that every magicka class got (2-piece staff, magicka scaling LA/HA, and imbue weapons).

The increase to cliff racer speed was supposed to be a PvP buff to make the ability harder to dodge after making it dodgeable. No one will be using it in PvE as imbue weapons is better.

Major breach wasn't added to shalks as a PvE buff. It was added as a compromise to removing the stun. Nobody needs major breach on their skills in PvE as every group has 100% ultime of MB through ele drain. Shalks is also only a trash pull ability as its a DPS loss during boss fights.

LeHarrt91

I dont know how much would technically be involved with this but could we have the Bear Ultimate scale with Magic or Physical (whichever is higher) and then one morph is Eternal, a constant companion that needs to be double barred (current iteration of Eternal Companion) and then the other is basically a Selenes proc, an instant ultimate that also keeps its execute and increased damage, which is only need on one bar.

This would please those who want a Pet and those that do not. As the current morphs are basically just one is physical and one is Magic.

Waffennacht

@kilo what about PuGs? What about the majority of the player base?

They would perform better with a mag sorc over a Magden.... Period

Edrein

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I dont know how much would technically be involved with this but could we have the Bear Ultimate scale with Magic or Physical (whichever is higher) and then one morph is Eternal, a constant companion that needs to be double barred (current iteration of Eternal Companion) and then the other is basically a Selenes proc, an instant ultimate that also keeps its execute and increased damage, which is only need on one bar.

This would please those who want a Pet and those that do not. As the current morphs are basically just one is physical and one is Magic.

That's a beautiful idea. Might want to make it a bit longer than Selene's but overall great compromise and idea.

Pawsy

I would personally like to see some changes to warden.

Firstly I think the Cutting Dive morph of get major and minor breach, letting stamplars not always mandatory in a raid, and making the raid leader think, is there a lot of trash like in sanctum - take a warden for large aoe fracture and breach, are there a lot of cleave fights like rakkat or a lot of downtime in fights like assembly General (time for shards) - take a stamplar . Because right now, as a morph option, dive does nothing, and to quote @GilliamtheRogue "a morph should gain something new". Also a speed increase would be amazing.

Secondly, I'd like to see something done with sub assault. The average stamden manages 2-3 per 10 sec rotation, so my idea is turn this into a flames of oblivion kind of thing (launch multiple times in a set duration) and launched more than 2-3 times but reduces the damage to keep the same dps, which might fix its OP ness in pvp. For example, lets say it does 10k per hit and you hit it 3 times per rotation= 30k total/10=3k dps, then with my idea it does 6 hits in 10 secs but only hits for half as much=5k*6=30k total/10=3k dps and won't hit nearly as hard in pvp. Also keeping the cost the same but making it a 10 second buff might make magdens use this. atm magdens just spam the spamable because deep fissure costs way too much. I personally would like to let stam keep both buffs even if it is reduced to 5 seconds, and then maybe make deep fissure give empower after every hit, would be cool to see imo.

With the introduction of the psijic (or however you spell it) order skill line, we have been introduced to the acceleration skill, and the time triple one seems to be the preferred morph. As we see with a number of abilities, class abilities seem to be better versions of abilities accessible to everyone (surprise attack > rapid strikes, chains > leesh, shards > orbs etc) so I'd like to see bird of prey as a better version of race against time, so 9 seconds expedition, 36 seconds of force, but maybe no obnoxious cast time for bird of prey. This will be used by magden mainly as trap is very nice for stam builds and the current only use for this skill (in pve) is to target dummy cheese, so if we made the buff a little more desirable in end game raiding by removing minor berserk and replaced with minor force I think this will be used, and it won't stop the people who want to run guard so 2 people get the buff in a raid, that's their choice. In pvp this won't change much as both berserk and force are strong buffs.

A skill I don't see used often is lotus, and for anyone who doesn't know, the regen this gives with the natures gift passive is more than netch. I think this skill is mainly stamped on because of the high magic cost, and since magic wardens should be using inner light (the buff is too strong to live without) they don't need the buff that blue lotus gives we can give it a cost reduction to be more desirable. As for green lotus, it's nice to have, especially in pvp, the only thing I want with it is to have a duration increase. But I would like to see a change to natures gift passive though. And that is that it doesn't have to heal damage, that's all I want for it.

A skill I'd like to see changed is Arctic Blast, that skill no one uses, lack luster heal with lack luster damage. One thing I here a lot is give warden cc and since your taking away deep fissures cc I think we should put a 2-3 second stun on this skill, also it so give stamden a cc because no stamden was using deep fissure

As for passives, I think some of these passives are a bit bad, so I've thought of different passives that are a big more inline with the names.
Emerald moss-healing a low health ally grants them 2500
Maturation-using a warden ability grants you and your group minor courage
Bond with nature-increases you max magic and stam by x% for each combat pet active.
Advanced spieces-increases your damage to a specific enemy when light attacking that enemy, if you light attack a different enemy, you deal more damage to that new enemy, but no longer to the first enemy. this fits the theme of a animal adapting to the weaknesses of its enemy.
Glacial Pressence-since there are already so many ways to apply chilled (eli weapon or asylum destro) this passive should be like a burning light so when you deal damage with a ability you have a %chance to summon a ice spike from the ground dealing x frost damage or a rock from the sky dealing xphysical damage.
Frozen Armor-500 per ability to 1000 per abilty, this passive is nothing compared to the dk 3k spell resists
Icy Aura-when a ice effect occurs (ice damage or a ice looks like frost cloak) you freeze the ground beneath in a 3m radius you giving you minor expedition as long as you are in the radius.
Piercing Cold-i think we should keep the magic and frost damage but with the "piercing" bit it should give 1k physical pen.

for the bear id like to see the special attack have a small aoe/cleave and the ice ulti to be called "avalanche" and be like the trailers, dealing a lot more damage but not giving major protection.

these are my ideas anyway.

Lynx7386

Pawsy wrote: »

I would personally like to see some changes to warden.

Firstly I think the Cutting Dive morph of get major and minor breach, letting stamplars not always mandatory in a raid, and making the raid leader think, is there a lot of trash like in sanctum - take a warden for large aoe fracture and breach, are there a lot of cleave fights like rakkat or a lot of downtime in fights like assembly General (time for shards) - take a stamplar . Because right now, as a morph option, dive does nothing, and to quote @GilliamtheRogue "a morph should gain something new". Also a speed increase would be amazing.

Secondly, I'd like to see something done with sub assault. The average stamden manages 2-3 per 10 sec rotation, so my idea is turn this into a flames of oblivion kind of thing (launch multiple times in a set duration) and launched more than 2-3 times but reduces the damage to keep the same dps, which might fix its OP ness in pvp. For example, lets say it does 10k per hit and you hit it 3 times per rotation= 30k total/10=3k dps, then with my idea it does 6 hits in 10 secs but only hits for half as much=5k*6=30k total/10=3k dps and won't hit nearly as hard in pvp. Also keeping the cost the same but making it a 10 second buff might make magdens use this. atm magdens just spam the spamable because deep fissure costs way too much. I personally would like to let stam keep both buffs even if it is reduced to 5 seconds, and then maybe make deep fissure give empower after every hit, would be cool to see imo.

With the introduction of the psijic (or however you spell it) order skill line, we have been introduced to the acceleration skill, and the time triple one seems to be the preferred morph. As we see with a number of abilities, class abilities seem to be better versions of abilities accessible to everyone (surprise attack > rapid strikes, chains > leesh, shards > orbs etc) so I'd like to see bird of prey as a better version of race against time, so 9 seconds expedition, 36 seconds of force, but maybe no obnoxious cast time for bird of prey. This will be used by magden mainly as trap is very nice for stam builds and the current only use for this skill (in pve) is to target dummy cheese, so if we made the buff a little more desirable in end game raiding by removing minor berserk and replaced with minor force I think this will be used, and it won't stop the people who want to run guard so 2 people get the buff in a raid, that's their choice. In pvp this won't change much as both berserk and force are strong buffs.

A skill I don't see used often is lotus, and for anyone who doesn't know, the regen this gives with the natures gift passive is more than netch. I think this skill is mainly stamped on because of the high magic cost, and since magic wardens should be using inner light (the buff is too strong to live without) they don't need the buff that blue lotus gives we can give it a cost reduction to be more desirable. As for green lotus, it's nice to have, especially in pvp, the only thing I want with it is to have a duration increase. But I would like to see a change to natures gift passive though. And that is that it doesn't have to heal damage, that's all I want for it.

A skill I'd like to see changed is Arctic Blast, that skill no one uses, lack luster heal with lack luster damage. One thing I here a lot is give warden cc and since your taking away deep fissures cc I think we should put a 2-3 second stun on this skill, also it so give stamden a cc because no stamden was using deep fissure

As for passives, I think some of these passives are a bit bad, so I've thought of different passives that are a big more inline with the names.
Emerald moss-healing a low health ally grants them 2500
Maturation-using a warden ability grants you and your group minor courage
Bond with nature-increases you max magic and stam by x% for each combat pet active.
Advanced spieces-increases your damage to a specific enemy when light attacking that enemy, if you light attack a different enemy, you deal more damage to that new enemy, but no longer to the first enemy. this fits the theme of a animal adapting to the weaknesses of its enemy.
Glacial Pressence-since there are already so many ways to apply chilled (eli weapon or asylum destro) this passive should be like a burning light so when you deal damage with a ability you have a %chance to summon a ice spike from the ground dealing x frost damage or a rock from the sky dealing xphysical damage.
Frozen Armor-500 per ability to 1000 per abilty, this passive is nothing compared to the dk 3k spell resists
Icy Aura-when a ice effect occurs (ice damage or a ice looks like frost cloak) you freeze the ground beneath in a 3m radius you giving you minor expedition as long as you are in the radius.
Piercing Cold-i think we should keep the magic and frost damage but with the "piercing" bit it should give 1k physical pen.

for the bear id like to see the special attack have a small aoe/cleave and the ice ulti to be called "avalanche" and be like the trailers, dealing a lot more damage but not giving major protection.

these are my ideas anyway.

And there you go killing off warden tanks while trying to make dps better.

Stop suggesting changes that ruin one role in favor of another. That doesn't fix any issues, it just creates more

Pawsy

Lynx7386 wrote: »

And there you go killing off warden tanks while trying to make dps better.

Stop suggesting changes that ruin one role in favor of another. That doesn't fix any issues, it just creates more

how is this ruining tanks?

TheBonesXXX

Lol @ Wardens using outside sources to make up their DPS. That's not the Warden.

Magicka Warden is not in a good spot.

Most people do not main Wardens.. theres a reason for that. They're not an attractive class mechanically.

_Ahala_

Let’s look at the classes that suffer most in pvp... StamDK and Magden... similarity in these two and the reason they are so unpopular is the fact they have few class damaging abilities which can be used in pvp...

LeHarrt91

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Lol @ Wardens using outside sources to make up their DPS. That's not the Warden.

Magicka Warden is not in a good spot.

Most people do not main Wardens.. theres a reason for that. They're not an attractive class mechanically.

Its sad but true, the Magicka Warden was designed to get its best DPS from slotting only animal companion skills due to Advanced Species passive, but we also have to make room for a Destro skill to get the 8% damage passive from Ancient Knowledge.

Then also any additional buffs or utility skills. So Magicka Warden does not have enough slots to benefit from its own passives in its DPS skill tree.

With the addition of Elemental Weapon in the Psijic tree we have to choose again not slot another Animal Companion skill and loose out on 2% damage.

So now we have like 1 or 2 Animal skills slotted which is the Bear minimum to get passives like Flourish and Advanced Species.

MLGProPlayer

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Lol @ Wardens using outside sources to make up their DPS. That's not the Warden.

Magicka Warden is not in a good spot.

Most people do not main Wardens.. theres a reason for that. They're not an attractive class mechanically.

Its sad but true, the Magicka Warden was designed to get its best DPS from slotting only animal companion skills due to Advanced Species passive, but we also have to make room for a Destro skill to get the 8% damage passive from Ancient Knowledge.

Then also any additional buffs or utility skills. So Magicka Warden does not have enough slots to benefit from its own passives in its DPS skill tree.

With the addition of Elemental Weapon in the Psijic tree we have to choose again not slot another Animal Companion skill and loose out on 2% damage.

So now we have like 1 or 2 Animal skills slotted which is the Bear minimum to get passives like Flourish and Advanced Species.

Imbue Weapons and Acceleration are stronger than anything in the animal companion line. Those are the new primary damage skills for magden. The only warden skills I will have on my bar are:

- Bear (ult)
- Netch
- Fletcher Infection
- Winter's Revenge

LeHarrt91

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Lol @ Wardens using outside sources to make up their DPS. That's not the Warden.

Magicka Warden is not in a good spot.

Most people do not main Wardens.. theres a reason for that. They're not an attractive class mechanically.

Its sad but true, the Magicka Warden was designed to get its best DPS from slotting only animal companion skills due to Advanced Species passive, but we also have to make room for a Destro skill to get the 8% damage passive from Ancient Knowledge.

Then also any additional buffs or utility skills. So Magicka Warden does not have enough slots to benefit from its own passives in its DPS skill tree.

With the addition of Elemental Weapon in the Psijic tree we have to choose again not slot another Animal Companion skill and loose out on 2% damage.

So now we have like 1 or 2 Animal skills slotted which is the Bear minimum to get passives like Flourish and Advanced Species.

Imbue Weapons and Acceleration are stronger than anything in the animal companion line. Those are the new primary damage skills for magden. The only warden skills I will have on my bar are:

- Bear (ult)
- Netch
- Fletcher Infection
- Winter's Revenge

My point exactly and Winters Revenge doesn't benefit from Advanced Species . We need to look at fixing the Passives (among other things)

Hutch679

Magic warden is a joke. The fact that ZOS blanly said they are not making class changes this update is a slap in the face to every person that has spent time on a magic warden. With that being said, stamina warden is God in pvp. I'll be sticking with stamina warden.

casparian

How is everyone finding Frozen Gate on the PTS? It seems to place the target behind the caster more often than not. I can't imagine that's intended behavior.