PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Warden Balance

Mojomonkeyman

casparian wrote: »

HalfEatenCornea wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Nicely done Zos, you have decided to go through the single, most terrible change possibly done.

it changes like removing shalk stun that makes me lose hope for this game. no matter how underpowered or unpopular your class is, any set of patch notes could randomly gut your class and end your ability to solo. the entire community could speak out about how bad the change is (and they have) and zos will just ignore it like they have. Meanwhile the classes that are overperforming by miles ahead of the other classes go completely unscathed.

I'm pretty sure ZOS/Wrobel is actively interested in removing the ability to solo effectively in Cyrodiil. The ability to do that doesn't line up with anything I've ever seen them say about their vision for PVP, I don't believe they've ever been swayed by an argument that such-and-such change harms solo PVPers, and they have never shown any interest in making Cyrodiil better from the perspective of a soloer.

Not saying I agree with them, but it's not clear to me that that point even registers with them.

But why are stamdens, stamnbs and magsorcs then (almost) untouched or even buffed? The classes that can solo most easily. That doesn't line up. I personally think they made this change to improve PvErs QOL not deeming PvP important enough to even consider.

That change was made directly after them meeting some PvE girls & boys for inner circle balance discussions. I don't think any of those PvE guys had bad intentions, but they didn't consider or care enough about PvP to give their veto.

casparian

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

HalfEatenCornea wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Nicely done Zos, you have decided to go through the single, most terrible change possibly done.

it changes like removing shalk stun that makes me lose hope for this game. no matter how underpowered or unpopular your class is, any set of patch notes could randomly gut your class and end your ability to solo. the entire community could speak out about how bad the change is (and they have) and zos will just ignore it like they have. Meanwhile the classes that are overperforming by miles ahead of the other classes go completely unscathed.

I'm pretty sure ZOS/Wrobel is actively interested in removing the ability to solo effectively in Cyrodiil. The ability to do that doesn't line up with anything I've ever seen them say about their vision for PVP, I don't believe they've ever been swayed by an argument that such-and-such change harms solo PVPers, and they have never shown any interest in making Cyrodiil better from the perspective of a soloer.

Not saying I agree with them, but it's not clear to me that that point even registers with them.

But why are stamdens, stamnbs and magsorcs then (almost) untouched or even buffed? The classes that can solo most easily. That doesn't line up. I personally think they made this change to improve PvErs QOL not deeming PvP important enough to even consider.

I think stamwarden and stamNB are outliers that they don't know how to fix (i.e., nerf) yet. I think they tried to nerf magsorc to make it less viable solo (with the Frags change), but magsorcs found ways to make it work.

Or, they might think that soloers are few and far between and they will just play the FOTMs anyway, so it doesn't matter that not every class can solo well. I dunno. But we really shouldn't have to speculate about this (we're talking about whether a playstyle enjoyed by many is even intended to exist, which is ridiculous); they ought to be communicating with us about this.

Mojomonkeyman

casparian wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

HalfEatenCornea wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Nicely done Zos, you have decided to go through the single, most terrible change possibly done.

it changes like removing shalk stun that makes me lose hope for this game. no matter how underpowered or unpopular your class is, any set of patch notes could randomly gut your class and end your ability to solo. the entire community could speak out about how bad the change is (and they have) and zos will just ignore it like they have. Meanwhile the classes that are overperforming by miles ahead of the other classes go completely unscathed.

I'm pretty sure ZOS/Wrobel is actively interested in removing the ability to solo effectively in Cyrodiil. The ability to do that doesn't line up with anything I've ever seen them say about their vision for PVP, I don't believe they've ever been swayed by an argument that such-and-such change harms solo PVPers, and they have never shown any interest in making Cyrodiil better from the perspective of a soloer.

Not saying I agree with them, but it's not clear to me that that point even registers with them.

But why are stamdens, stamnbs and magsorcs then (almost) untouched or even buffed? The classes that can solo most easily. That doesn't line up. I personally think they made this change to improve PvErs QOL not deeming PvP important enough to even consider.

I think stamwarden and stamNB are outliers that they don't know how to fix (i.e., nerf) yet. I think they tried to nerf magsorc to make it less viable solo (with the Frags change), but magsorcs found ways to make it work.

Or, they might think that soloers are few and far between and they will just play the FOTMs anyway, so it doesn't matter that not every class can solo well. I dunno. But we really shouldn't have to speculate about this (we're talking about whether a playstyle enjoyed by many is even intended to exist, which is ridiculous); they ought to be communicating with us about this.

Totally agreed.

Lynx7386

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

HalfEatenCornea wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Nicely done Zos, you have decided to go through the single, most terrible change possibly done.

it changes like removing shalk stun that makes me lose hope for this game. no matter how underpowered or unpopular your class is, any set of patch notes could randomly gut your class and end your ability to solo. the entire community could speak out about how bad the change is (and they have) and zos will just ignore it like they have. Meanwhile the classes that are overperforming by miles ahead of the other classes go completely unscathed.

I'm pretty sure ZOS/Wrobel is actively interested in removing the ability to solo effectively in Cyrodiil. The ability to do that doesn't line up with anything I've ever seen them say about their vision for PVP, I don't believe they've ever been swayed by an argument that such-and-such change harms solo PVPers, and they have never shown any interest in making Cyrodiil better from the perspective of a soloer.

Not saying I agree with them, but it's not clear to me that that point even registers with them.

But why are stamdens, stamnbs and magsorcs then (almost) untouched or even buffed? The classes that can solo most easily. That doesn't line up. I personally think they made this change to improve PvErs QOL not deeming PvP important enough to even consider.

That change was made directly after them meeting some PvE girls & boys for inner circle balance discussions. I don't think any of those PvE guys had bad intentions, but they didn't consider or care enough about PvP to give their veto.

There is no way any competent pve player was behind the warden changes. No trials magdens asked for major breach, as everyone knows it's already provided by the tank.

Razorback174

casparian wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

HalfEatenCornea wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Nicely done Zos, you have decided to go through the single, most terrible change possibly done.

it changes like removing shalk stun that makes me lose hope for this game. no matter how underpowered or unpopular your class is, any set of patch notes could randomly gut your class and end your ability to solo. the entire community could speak out about how bad the change is (and they have) and zos will just ignore it like they have. Meanwhile the classes that are overperforming by miles ahead of the other classes go completely unscathed.

I'm pretty sure ZOS/Wrobel is actively interested in removing the ability to solo effectively in Cyrodiil. The ability to do that doesn't line up with anything I've ever seen them say about their vision for PVP, I don't believe they've ever been swayed by an argument that such-and-such change harms solo PVPers, and they have never shown any interest in making Cyrodiil better from the perspective of a soloer.

Not saying I agree with them, but it's not clear to me that that point even registers with them.

But why are stamdens, stamnbs and magsorcs then (almost) untouched or even buffed? The classes that can solo most easily. That doesn't line up. I personally think they made this change to improve PvErs QOL not deeming PvP important enough to even consider.

I think stamwarden and stamNB are outliers that they don't know how to fix (i.e., nerf) yet. I think they tried to nerf magsorc to make it less viable solo (with the Frags change), but magsorcs found ways to make it work.

Or, they might think that soloers are few and far between and they will just play the FOTMs anyway, so it doesn't matter that not every class can solo well. I dunno. But we really shouldn't have to speculate about this (we're talking about whether a playstyle enjoyed by many is even intended to exist, which is ridiculous); they ought to be communicating with us about this.

Communicating? That's the thing ZOS is the absolute worst at. Look at this Templar feedback thread from early 2016 when Thieves Guild was about to drop.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2745633#Comment_2745633

Some particularly hard nerfs were thrown in that update. Understandably, people were upset, and tried to communicate reasonable fixes rather than heavy-handed nerfs (ZOS style at its best).

How long did it take ZOS to respond to any of this official feedback? 75 pages. Not even kidding.

That alone proved to me any communication from this company that doesn't involve marketing is nothing more than a sick joke.

Hutch679

Lol mag warden.... everyone knows stam warden is superior in pvp. This whole PTS feedback for summerset has been a joke. Probably won't be giving any feedback in future PTS releases. All for nothing.

_Ahala_

So they decided to go ahead and bombard magden specifically with nerfs while ignoring stamden... magden’s weakness was already a running joke in the pvp community, and now it’s getting hit hard with cliff racer and fissure nerfs in the patch that we were expecting substantial buffs... it’s not even funny how bad it is now... might as well label all mag morphs as undesirable with the level advisor now, because that’s the truth with Summerset

Razorback174

And so, we would like to remember mag warden not for the utter mess they were, but what they could have possibly been.

A druid that calls upon nature to aid them in their fight.



A mage that wields awesome ice-magic in battle.



As this update brings homogenization to all other classes, in the aim of allowing them to play all 3 roles, the mag warden has been left almost entirely unnoticed by this "balance" update.

Despite over a year of feedback and countless dev promises to bring the class up to par, nothing. We've gained a redundant debuff, but we've lost our precious, single non-ult CC in the process. We still have no non-ult execute. We still have no substantial forms of damage.

And yet as we step into the new, shiny expansion with nearly useless buffs and only the hardest nerfs imaginable, we're left with a class that is not solo-friendly. A class only meant to be played as a tank or somewhat decent healer. A class that is now not only crippled, but outright unable to stand on its own.



Mag warden is dead, long live mag warden.

mb10

Well done combat developers, you're awful at your job.

You wake up early morning and go to work 5 days a week, all year round with like 14-28 days holiday leave annually.

All that time attempting to balance the game and this is what you've come up with?

Embarrassing tbh, I hope you guys have hobbies you're actually good at because balancing this game and this warden class is something you're definitely not good at.

#HarshReality

LeHarrt91

While i understand everyone's frustration, as the Warden is my favourite class and i would like to see DPS improved. Bashing them wont achieve anything.
I know its been a year and that we paid for the class, but we need to keep our criticisms constructive.

DoonerSeraph

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

While i understand everyone's frustration, as the Warden is my favourite class and i would like to see DPS improved. Bashing them wont achieve anything.
I know its been a year and that we paid for the class, but we need to keep our criticisms constructive.

Maybe the only difference between bashing and non-bashing feedback is being thrown in different garbage bins

Razorback174

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

While i understand everyone's frustration, as the Warden is my favourite class and i would like to see DPS improved. Bashing them wont achieve anything.
I know its been a year and that we paid for the class, but we need to keep our criticisms constructive.

That's right. We paid extra for the class. We, as customers, are not satisfied with having purchased a half-functioning product.

Is the bashing a little much? Yes, but I can personally understand the level of frustration. Mind you, this isn't just off the cuff out of nowhere. This is the combination of ignored feedback and broken promises over the span of more than a year. The devs keep telling us "We know warden's not in the best spot right now," and that's all we get.

When this update promised a whole lot of sweeping class changes, warden got left with nothing but a crippling list of nerfs.
And to add insult to injury, right after that first "balance" pass, the devs state "Don't expect any more class balance updates this PTS cycle."

So now we're left holding the bag for the next few months with a beyond-gimped mag warden. A thing only useful for passing out menial buffs to all the other functioning classes.

I want on-demand class CC's and executes. No other class has to rely solely on an ult for these. Even worse, you can't even run both at the same time! You still need to double slot that stupid bear.

I want reliable damage. Frost damage is crap, and the entire frost tree scaling off health makes it worthless for anyone not dumping every single point into health.

I don't want to be bitter and I don't want to bash, but this class is beyond an outright joke now. Don't believe me? Take a look at most of the leaderboards.

LeHarrt91

Razorback174 wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

While i understand everyone's frustration, as the Warden is my favourite class and i would like to see DPS improved. Bashing them wont achieve anything.
I know its been a year and that we paid for the class, but we need to keep our criticisms constructive.

That's right. We paid extra for the class. We, as customers, are not satisfied with having purchased a half-functioning product.

Is the bashing a little much? Yes, but I can personally understand the level of frustration. Mind you, this isn't just off the cuff out of nowhere. This is the combination of ignored feedback and broken promises over the span of more than a year. The devs keep telling us "We know warden's not in the best spot right now," and that's all we get.

When this update promised a whole lot of sweeping class changes, warden got left with nothing but a crippling list of nerfs.
And to add insult to injury, right after that first "balance" pass, the devs state "Don't expect any more class balance updates this PTS cycle."

So now we're left holding the bag for the next few months with a beyond-gimped mag warden. A thing only useful for passing out menial buffs to all the other functioning classes.

I want on-demand class CC's and executes. No other class has to rely solely on an ult for these. Even worse, you can't even run both at the same time! You still need to double slot that stupid bear.

I want reliable damage. Frost damage is crap, and the entire frost tree scaling off health makes it worthless for anyone not dumping every single point into health.

I don't want to be bitter and I don't want to bash, but this class is beyond an outright joke now. Don't believe me? Take a look at most of the leaderboards.

I know and i totally understand you, i really do. I will most likely not be running my wardens in many Vet Trials when Summerset drops. And like you im not satisfied with the product i paid extra for and i do feel let down by them at the moment. (mainly in terms on Non-Bear DPS and DPS in general)

I know about the leaderboards lol, i did VMA the other week on my MagDen and for the first time playing eso i got on the leaderboard. 80/81

DoonerSeraph

Playing a magwarden DPS is like playing a Magikarp capped to lvl 19...

LeHarrt91

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

Playing a magwarden DPS is like playing a Magikarp capped to lvl 19...

i legit laughed out loud

Bælfyer

Amazing. So much good feedback in this thread (even if mixed with some crap feedback) and they ignored all of it for the patch.

_Ahala_

Yeah wonderful isn’t it... they nerfed the ever living daylights out of a spec that was already considered laughably bad and called it a day... look on the bright side... it is physically impossible for it to get any worse so we won’t have to worry about magden getting nerfed again 3 months from now

VeiledCriticism

Regarding MagDen on 4.05:

PVP

The speed update for Screaming Cliff Racer really helps. It seems way more difficult for the enemy to avoid that damage now.

Deep Fissure change to apply major breach is actually way more advantageous than stun. Besides the fact it a range debuff that does TONS of damage, it's an Aoe debuff that synergy quite well with Northern Storm/Permafrost (and even proximity detonation).
The fact that Warden does lack a stun can be fixed by using destructive clench for example.


Frozen Gate now causing damage is a nice bonus. I would use Frozen Device morph of this skill sometimes to apply minor main debuff. I can see myself sloting tbis more frequently.

PVE

Any of the class balance changes really affect MagDen Dps.
My DPS is a little higher but that's due to the fact that staves are worth two slots itens now.

DPS with bear ultimate is hands down higher, but I see lots of 'hate' towards pet builds for end-game trial content.

Vaoh

Hiddle wrote: »

Regarding MagDen on 4.05:

PVP

The speed update for Screaming Cliff Racer really helps. It seems way more difficult for the enemy to avoid that damage now.

Deep Fissure change to apply major breach is actually way more advantageous than stun. Besides the fact it a range debuff that does TONS of damage, it's an Aoe debuff that synergy quite well with Northern Storm/Permafrost (and even proximity detonation).
The fact that Warden does lack a stun can be fixed by using destructive clench for example.


Frozen Gate now causing damage is a nice bonus. I would use Frozen Device morph of this skill sometimes to apply minor main debuff. I can see myself sloting tbis more frequently.

PVE

Any of the class balance changes really affect MagDen Dps.
My DPS is a little higher but that's due to the fact that staves are worth two slots itens now.

DPS with bear ultimate is hands down higher, but I see lots of 'hate' towards pet builds for end-game trial content.

Regarding PvP, the issue with Deep Fissure losing its stun is the very fact that you must now slot Destructive Touch to have a CC. It’s pathetic that an entire class no longer even has the option to slot a class-based Active Skill that CCs. Especially when Magicka-based, you have zero CCing ability outside of Destructive Touch (or through casting an Ultimate Ability).

Cliff Racer now no longer lines up with burst. Even though it’s basically a negligible change if you only spammed birds, it’s a nerf to the combo of Dive -> a different instant cast skill. The delay it had before allowed you to sync up attacks perfectly.

With that said the change to Deep Fissure mostly just makes PvP Mag Wardens even more useless and weaker when solo than they already were. No stuns, no executes, no undodgeable spammable, no mobility when snared if you run solo unless using Forward Momentum (might as well be Stam), etc. I can see this change buffing the occasional Mag Warden zerger though since they can provide a useful debuff.

Frozen Gate did get a decent buff. Very glad to hear about that! However, Mag Wardens suffer from a similar issue that Mag Sorcs suffer with in PvP. There are too many skills that you want to slot but have no room for. Maybe you can afford to give up something for Frozen Gate if running in a large group - otherwise you won’t find the space especially since you now need a separate stun from Deep Fissure (1x skill slot less to use than last patch).

Oh yeah and that cost increase to Shimmering Shield happened too.

So in the end (PvP-Wise), they nerfed Mag Warden, but then left Stam Warden in the same state it was in with “nerfs” that will barely affect its performance in any way.......

VeiledCriticism

PVP-wise the MagDen gives great group support. Playing in Battlegrounds I always am one of top assistants in killer other players. (There isn't a effective way to measure this in Cyrodil).
Yes, it's way hard to combo with Warden now. The fact that Deep Fissure no longer stuns makes more difficult to win in duel like scenarios (But this change is consistent with what ZOS did to Crystal Shards last year).
That said, I believe that a very VERY small amount of players are actually capable of 'solo' in Cyrodil. Besides, solo-ing is not what I interpret the purpose/design of this specific class (or even any other one aside from nightblades). Thus, I don't think we will see any change that improves such scenario (might be wrong). I strongly advocate that this class lacks an execute type skill not an stun.
Due to how staves work now, I can finally use Mighty Chudan Monster Helm and use the Ice Fortress slot for another ability. But of course, that slot now goes to my 'stun skill'.

Shimmering Shield is nerfed (?), but the cost increase is small and neglectable.

Wardens have a passive that reduces snare. It does not however perfome the same way as Forward Momentum by any chance. But I believe is something that could be improved in the future.

I don't think this class is perfect, and it does underperform compared to other Magicka classes IF you play PVP alone. For me, I welcome all this changes and do expect more tweaks here and there to make the Warden more competitive for PVE.

Vaoh

Hiddle wrote: »

PVP-wise the MagDen gives great group support. Playing in Battlegrounds I always am one of top assistants in killer other players. (There isn't a effective way to measure this in Cyrodil).
Yes, it's way hard to combo with Warden now. The fact that Deep Fissure no longer stuns makes more difficult to win in duel like scenarios (But this change is consistent with what ZOS did to Crystal Shards last year).
That said, I believe that a very VERY small amount of players are actually capable of 'solo' in Cyrodil. Besides, solo-ing is not what I interpret the purpose/design of this specific class (or even any other one aside from nightblades). Thus, I don't think we will see any change that improves such scenario (might be wrong). I strongly advocate that this class lacks an execute type skill not an stun.
Due to how staves work now, I can finally use Mighty Chudan Monster Helm and use the Ice Fortress slot for another ability. But of course, that slot now goes to my 'stun skill'.

Shimmering Shield is nerfed (?), but the cost increase is small and neglectable.

Wardens have a passive that reduces snare. It does not however perfome the same way as Forward Momentum by any chance. But I believe is something that could be improved in the future.

I don't think this class is perfect, and it does underperform compared to other Magicka classes IF you play PVP alone. For me, I welcome all this changes and do expect more tweaks here and there to make the Warden more competitive for PVE.

Well I’m glad you like the changes I, along with just about everyone I know, are disappointed in the Warden changes this patch as a whole due to the lack of meaningful buffs and outright unwarranted nerfs.

Magicka Warden was considered one of the weakest setups in PvP prior to Summerset and that won’t change. In terms of group support, I agree they can be nice in BGs, but other than that you pretty much have to stick with allies or you’re useless. It was an issue with the class made worse next patch.

In fact, they’ve managed to now nerf Warden PvP Support roles (the area they were perfect at) because of the Subterranean Assault nerf. This was an incredible skill in both PvP and PvE for debuffing. This nerf was done in hopes of nerfing PvP Stam Warden (currently OP) but it won’t change anything for them. So really, every Warden has been nerfed *except* the single overperforming Warden spec It could be argued that Warden Healers who use Bursting Vines did get a buff though (no one uses this morph rn), with a much smaller buff to those using the other morph. You’ll get your Ult just a tiny bit faster now, though simply slotting this skill will be tough since you now lose a skill slot for Destructive Touch if you’re a Mag Warden.

Oh and the change to Crystal Shards was horrible. To see Deep Fissure get the same treatment is not at all a good thing - it means that:
1. You need to extend your burst combo by 1x more skill - rip the already weak solo mag warden
2. You lose 1x more ability slot just to get a CC, of which your class skills will not provide you (has never happened in ESO to any class..... prior to Summerset). The only choice is Destructive Touch - zero variation is very annoying and against this game’s original vision, and also ***forces*** using a Fire/Shock Staff. Rip any sort of solo Ice Mage setups. Every Magicka Warden will be pidgeonholed into the same playstyle even worse than Mag Sorcs.
3. You have to reconsider whether you should even slot your class-defining skills since they’re no longer that good. Crystal Frags isn’t used by many Sorcs now (Deep Fissure prob won’t get unslotted though...... Mag Warden doesn’t have any other delayed dmg due to Dive’s speed “buff”).

This was expected to be a patch of great changes and buffs. Magicka Warden was considered weak in PvP yet has instead been nerfed. You don’t see it that way but it is a nerf to the vast majority of Wardens and sets a really sad precedent for class balance that Shock/Flame Touch is now essential to slot, crippling build variation. In PvE, Warden as a whole has made up around 1.5-2.5% of all PvE leaderboard spots on any given server in Dragon Bones (of which all characters used were weekly run alts). People who care about this class hoped it would become a serious class to take on leaderboard score runs, but this still will not be the case unfortunately. There is no reason to bring a Warden DD over a NB DD which does everything they do but better. The nerf to Subterranean Assault will also make the one decent PvE Warden (the tank) less enticing, though a Warden healer may be considered in some runs. The fact remains that even though you can deal enough DPS with a Warden to complete all content, you gimp yourself and your group by choosing to use a weaker spec. This is not even to mention that controlling their DPS in a dynamic rotation is nearly impossible on console (no add-ons to track DoTs perfectly for a dynamic rotation in actual trials with low FPS+lag).

Anyway that’s my view on it lol. Sad to see this class go yet another patch of being mostly a running joke in PvE, and weak in PvP unless fighting alongside a group that can make up for your tons of inherent, class-based flaws..... oh yeah and PvP Stam Warden was for some reason still left OP

tinythinker

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Yeah wonderful isn’t it... they nerfed the ever living daylights out of a spec that was already considered laughably bad and called it a day... look on the bright side... it is physically impossible for it to get any worse so we won’t have to worry about magden getting nerfed again 3 months from now

Not true.

It isn't impossible and with the combat team's track record it isn't out of the question.

Vaoh

tinythinker wrote: »

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Yeah wonderful isn’t it... they nerfed the ever living daylights out of a spec that was already considered laughably bad and called it a day... look on the bright side... it is physically impossible for it to get any worse so we won’t have to worry about magden getting nerfed again 3 months from now

Not true.

It isn't impossible and with the combat team's track record it isn't out of the question.

^^^^
It’s kind of impressive in its own way though. On rare occasions it feels like I’m being trolled when I read the patch notes

Not talking about only Wardens either. I’ve seen it happen to all classes.... Templar most of all.

LeHarrt91

Hiddle wrote: »

Regarding MagDen on 4.05:

PVP

The speed update for Screaming Cliff Racer really helps. It seems way more difficult for the enemy to avoid that damage now.

Deep Fissure change to apply major breach is actually way more advantageous than stun. Besides the fact it a range debuff that does TONS of damage, it's an Aoe debuff that synergy quite well with Northern Storm/Permafrost (and even proximity detonation).
The fact that Warden does lack a stun can be fixed by using destructive clench for example.


Frozen Gate now causing damage is a nice bonus. I would use Frozen Device morph of this skill sometimes to apply minor main debuff. I can see myself sloting tbis more frequently.

PVE

Any of the class balance changes really affect MagDen Dps.
My DPS is a little higher but that's due to the fact that staves are worth two slots itens now.

DPS with bear ultimate is hands down higher, but I see lots of 'hate' towards pet builds for end-game trial content.

In regards to the Bear Ultimate, the reason it gets so much hate is that as an ultimate it has to be double barred. Yes I understand it’s a Pet but it can be very unreliable but also we lose the option to run a single target and aoe ultimate.

The bear will often disappear, will pull aggro in trials, will die often in trials (and if you have the Magicka morph, you are forced into the resummon animation, which can get you killed). In open world pvp, the bear dies a lot and you lose the ability to slot the tree ultimate for utility.

But as Vaoh said, a Stamina Nightblade using War Machine is just better than a stamina warden in War Machine, and the nightblade does not have to double bar Incapacitating strike.

While the Warden is good at support roles like Healing and Tanking, there are 8 slots for dps in a trial and at the moment none/ very few are used by Wardens.

tinythinker

Vaoh wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Yeah wonderful isn’t it... they nerfed the ever living daylights out of a spec that was already considered laughably bad and called it a day... look on the bright side... it is physically impossible for it to get any worse so we won’t have to worry about magden getting nerfed again 3 months from now

Not true.

It isn't impossible and with the combat team's track record it isn't out of the question.

^^^^
It’s kind of impressive in its own way though. On rare occasions it feels like I’m being trolled when I read the patch notes

Not talking about only Wardens either. I’ve seen it happen to all classes.... Templar most of all.

And for clarity's sake I wasn't being malicious. I don't think the combat team is inept or that they don't take their jobs seriously. But many of their decisions utterly baffle me, and I too have seen cases where you'd think a buff was due and a nerf rolled in.

_Ahala_

Vaoh wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Yeah wonderful isn’t it... they nerfed the ever living daylights out of a spec that was already considered laughably bad and called it a day... look on the bright side... it is physically impossible for it to get any worse so we won’t have to worry about magden getting nerfed again 3 months from now

Not true.

It isn't impossible and with the combat team's track record it isn't out of the question.

^^^^
It’s kind of impressive in its own way though. On rare occasions it feels like I’m being trolled when I read the patch notes

Not talking about only Wardens either. I’ve seen it happen to all classes.... Templar most of all.

That would just be awful if they nerfed it again next patch... seriously, what’s left to nerf? It... has... nothing... left

Vaoh

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Yeah wonderful isn’t it... they nerfed the ever living daylights out of a spec that was already considered laughably bad and called it a day... look on the bright side... it is physically impossible for it to get any worse so we won’t have to worry about magden getting nerfed again 3 months from now

Not true.

It isn't impossible and with the combat team's track record it isn't out of the question.

^^^^
It’s kind of impressive in its own way though. On rare occasions it feels like I’m being trolled when I read the patch notes

Not talking about only Wardens either. I’ve seen it happen to all classes.... Templar most of all.

That would just be awful if they nerfed it again next patch... seriously, what’s left to nerf? It... has... nothing... left

Let’s see:
• Eternal Guardian is a big DPS boost, might need to tone it down to be more in-line with a non-bear ult Warden’s DPS.
• Dive (+Screaming Cliff Racer) has too low of a Magicka cost. Increase from 2431 to 2700 to match Force Shock.
• Scorch hits too hard for an AoE, delayed damage ability. Reduce damage dealt.
• Betty Netch has no cost, and a long duration. Reduce duration, and possibly add a cost to be in-line with Siphoning Strikes.
• Falcon’s Swiftness has a long duration as well. Nerf to 8sec along with the Bird of Prey morph.
• Permafrost is too useful and is being slotted by some Wardens. Cap the stun effect to one target, and only apply Major Protection to yourself for 4sec on cast.
• Crystallized Shield feels too useful, so that can be nerfed. Weaker shields, less projectile shields, different scaling, etc. Also Shimmering Shield is strong so that can be separated nerfed so Crystallized Slab is more enticing.
• Frozen Gate is overperforming. Reduce to 1-2 portals.
• Enchanted Growth has a 20sec buff duration. This needs to be toned down.
• Healing Thicket still feels too strong - cap to only heal yourself and three other allies.

Lots of nerf potential here! Did I get them all?

_Ahala_

Oh my... I guess the cycle can continue... this is now a nerf Magden post