PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Warden Balance

Ralamil · May 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

...snip...

Thanks for (finally) posting proof to your claims and correcting my assumptions.

The reason why I kept saying stuff like "it seems" is because I never bothered to test that skill myself, and I didn't want my messages to read as though I were speaking with absolute authority on it.

I - rather reasonably I would say - assumed that since the ability in question dealt damage periodically in area, it would actually proc status effects as though it were an AoE DoT. Clearly I was mistaken, based on the information you only now posted. I guess this just further proves that there are many abilities that don't behave consistently with the proc chance of status effects.

In the future, I might suggest you open with any proof you might have rather than taking a somewhat harsh tone (unless I'm misreading, in which case sorry!) and expect people to just accept you as being correct.

Maura_Neysa · May 2018

Ralamil wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

...snip...

Thanks for (finally) posting proof to your claims and correcting my assumptions.

The reason why I kept saying stuff like "it seems" is because I never bothered to test that skill myself, and I didn't want my messages to read as though I were speaking with absolute authority on it.

I - rather reasonably I would say - assumed that since the ability in question dealt damage periodically in area, it would actually proc status effects as though it were an AoE DoT. Clearly I was mistaken, based on the information you only now posted. I guess this just further proves that there are many abilities that don't behave consistently with the proc chance of status effects.

In the future, I might suggest you open with any proof you might have rather than taking a somewhat harsh tone (unless I'm misreading, in which case sorry!) and expect people to just accept you as being correct.

Took me a couple hours to track down that old post of proof

Ralamil · May 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Took me a couple hours to track down that old post of proof

Well I certainly appreciate that you did! I've actually got more respect for that morph, now.

BrokenGameMechanics · May 2018

On a couple of posts I pointed out that the nerf to the Warden Birds with now being dodgable was in effect a de-facto large damage nerf to the skill as it was those situations where Birds were (past tense) tactically viable in PVP. i.e.against kiters, misters, evasion-ers, dodge-rollers, cloakers, etc ... that the nerf had a much larger that intended effect in damage reduction. Even pre-nerf Birds were way too low damage skill to throw at a heavy armor tanky PVP build.

Roughly begin dodgeable along with the accompanying severe slow down in both spam and and in-flight. Without a doubt Birds are the easiest skill to dodge because of the super-slow and very obvious animation. Literally if you can't dodge roll a Warden Bird in PVP, you can't dodge anything. Anyway if you sort of sum up Evasion+Dodgeroll+SpamRate Slowed+Slowest Animation in the game >= at least >=20% damage nerf in the skill.

It has literally killed what I think at one time was meant to be a "core" skill for Wardens. I played 5 hours or so of PVP and saw only a single player use Birds. I can't recall seeing them used in the daily Undaunted runs. Never slotted for a core skill by the designers is ... not so good.

Anyway, in those posts I'd pointed out that if the whole point was to alter game mechanics by making the Birds dodgeable than IF there was an intent to net-net the skill at zero with regard to damage the Bird tootip _should_ have been adjusted.

Maybe/maybe not someone saw the post because shortly thereafter there was a PTS note that Screaming Cliff's rate would be adjusted back up as partial "compensation" for the, I assume, for the unintended harsh damage nerf.

Can anyone on PTS confirm or deny that the "compensation" fix was for both Screaming _and_ Cutting or was it really only fixed/adjusted for Screaming.

In other words, the current situation where if the Cutting Dive morph is selected one will see a significant "slow-down" in Birds (and of course by choosing that morph getting a _reduction_ in effective damage) in comparison to the Screaming morph still exists?

IARTOI · May 2018

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

On a couple of posts I pointed out that the nerf to the Warden Birds with now being dodgable was in effect a de-facto large damage nerf to the skill as it was those situations where Birds were (past tense) tactically viable in PVP. i.e.against kiters, misters, evasion-ers, dodge-rollers, cloakers, etc ... that the nerf had a much larger that intended effect in damage reduction. Even pre-nerf Birds were way too low damage skill to throw at a heavy armor tanky PVP build.

Roughly begin dodgeable along with the accompanying severe slow down in both spam and and in-flight. Without a doubt Birds are the easiest skill to dodge because of the super-slow and very obvious animation. Literally if you can't dodge roll a Warden Bird in PVP, you can't dodge anything. Anyway if you sort of sum up Evasion+Dodgeroll+SpamRate Slowed+Slowest Animation in the game >= at least >=20% damage nerf in the skill.

It has literally killed what I think at one time was meant to be a "core" skill for Wardens. I played 5 hours or so of PVP and saw only a single player use Birds. I can't recall seeing them used in the daily Undaunted runs. Never slotted for a core skill by the designers is ... not so good.

Anyway, in those posts I'd pointed out that if the whole point was to alter game mechanics by making the Birds dodgeable than IF there was an intent to net-net the skill at zero with regard to damage the Bird tootip _should_ have been adjusted.

Maybe/maybe not someone saw the post because shortly thereafter there was a PTS note that Screaming Cliff's rate would be adjusted back up as partial "compensation" for the, I assume, for the unintended harsh damage nerf.

Can anyone on PTS confirm or deny that the "compensation" fix was for both Screaming _and_ Cutting or was it really only fixed/adjusted for Screaming.

In other words, the current situation where if the Cutting Dive morph is selected one will see a significant "slow-down" in Birds (and of course by choosing that morph getting a _reduction_ in effective damage) in comparison to the Screaming morph still exists?

I agree with you. After nerf the undodgeable bird which was the only skill that make warden playable in PvP as DD, now they are nerfing the deep fissure. So no stun skill in class abilities (not counting Permafrost stun and gripping shards immobilization which is easy to negate it with shuffle or forward momentum). Also bear ultimate is completely broken and useless. So what is warden? (Talking for magicka warden) With these nerfs magicka warden only fits for support IMO. Maybe at least a good rework for bear ultimate would change things and bring back the magicka warden as DD to PvP.

Waffennacht · May 2018

Just fyi, for PvP couldn't get deep freeze to proc on anyone and relying on chill for roots with artic blast was a nightmare.

It's solid for PvE, horribly unreliable and difficult for PvP

Vaoh · May 2018

stileanima wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

By the way Gripling Shards last only 8 seconds instead of 12 like the tooltip says ^^
This is on Live and PTS also .

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

By the way Gripling Shards last only 8 seconds instead of 12 like the tooltip says ^^
This is on Live and PTS also .

I had noticed the visual effects of Winters Revenge lasted as long as Elemental Blockade, but i has assumed it still ticked damage as the ice was disappearing.
Another thing to add to the list.... great

Just tested on both PTS and Live and Winter's Revenge is ticking for the full 12 seconds as it should, though the visual does fade after 10.

Here's a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qgPXRXR_bA

EDIT: Just tested the other morph, Gripping Shards, and it's the same story-- ticking for 12, disappearing visually after 10.

Yup, it has always been this way. This leads me to believe that they did quite a bit of work on the Winter’s Embrace skill line to be DPS-based before swapping it over to a tank skill line. ZOS talked about how it was originally planned to be DPS-based in an article, and ofc most classes have a typical 10sec AoE DoT. Also there’s that single target CCing ice blast shown in Morrowind’s trailer which never made it into the game... that’s all just my theory though lol.

At first it was annoying, but honestly I find it very helpful that the visual disappears at 10sec. This helps players without add-ons (aka console) keep track of when to re-cast the skill if not following a totally static rotation. If the visual lasted 12sec it’d def drop my Winter’s Revenge uptime and therefore my Mag Warden DPS as a whole

Ludof · May 2018

LanceFoxMcCloud wrote: »

So many Stamdens chiming in, yet so very few Magdens.... speaks volumes about the current dismal state of this class.

l used to play magden since it came out.
Nerf after nerf I waited for them to better balance it, but at this point I will just play magsorc: much easier and better.

PS: just by checking skills sinergy, it is clear that they don't even know if the magicka counterpart of the class has to be played ranged or melee.

Seraphayel · May 2018

So what to expect from tomorrow's new PTS version:

1. No Warden changes at all.

2. Warden nerfs.

Choose carefully!

LanceFoxMcCloud · May 2018

Yup, I fully expect we will be flat out ignored AGAIN in tomorrows update.
No reason to expect anything differently given the total lack of Dev involvement/caring.

Waffennacht · May 2018

LanceFoxMcCloud wrote: »

Yup, I fully expect we will be flat out ignored AGAIN in tomorrows update.
No reason to expect anything differently given the total lack of Dev involvement/caring.

I'm REALLY REALLY hoping for a pleasant surprise tomorrow.

*Fingers crossed*

Seraphayel · May 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

LanceFoxMcCloud wrote: »

Yup, I fully expect we will be flat out ignored AGAIN in tomorrows update.
No reason to expect anything differently given the total lack of Dev involvement/caring.

I'm REALLY REALLY hoping for a pleasant surprise tomorrow.

*Fingers crossed*

Yeah I had that feeling last week when I was expecting the big "balance" patch to hit PTS. Guess how I felt after reading the notes.

Vaoh · May 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

So what to expect from tomorrow's new PTS version:

1. No Warden changes at all.

2. Warden nerfs.

Choose carefully!

At least if they nerf Warden they’ll be forced to remember that this class exists

Anti_Virus · May 2018

You will see bug fixes tomorrow trust.

mb10 · May 2018

Lmao tomorrow patch notes will definitely say

WARDEN -

Cliff Racer - Fixed an issue where the speed increased by 32% instead of 33%

Arctic Blast - Fixed a visual bug, where the skill wasnt appearing on your screen. Can confirm this was visual and not the skill having zero impact on your character.

_Ahala_ · May 2018

We will see

and then be disappointed

MinarasLaure · May 2018

The worst part is that Gina said we were supposed to get class fixes last patch, and since then nobody from zos ever said why we didn't get any.
It'll be the same tomorrow

LeHarrt91 · May 2018

MinarasLaure wrote: »

The worst part is that Gina said we were supposed to get class fixes last patch, and since then nobody from zos ever said why we didn't get any.
It'll be the same tomorrow

'Guys, don't forget as stated in the very first paragraph, you'll begin seeing some balance adjustments next week at the earliest. This patch is mainly bug fixes.'

she did not guarantee that there will be, just simply stated we will begin to see some... at the earliest.

And there were.....some.

Waffennacht · May 2018

Ugh, warden without execute or CC is just the hardest thing to get kills with in PvP

Make a decent "support" PvP character, as in, getting a ton of kills for your sorc.

But yourself? It's easily 3/4 assists to kills.

Spurius_Lucilius · May 2018

According to the newest quote from Gina, we won't get any Class balance changes.
So it seems like Magden will never be buffed.

Hutch679 · May 2018

Spurius_Lucilius wrote: »

According to the newest quote from Gina, we won't get any Class balance changes.
So it seems like Magden will never be buffed.

Just read that.

RIDICULOUS.

I'll be playing my stamina warden in God mode instead since my mag warden will now be pretty useless in pvp. Thanks for nerfing my main into the ground while templars, sorcs, and nightblades reign supreme.... what a joke.

Seraphayel · May 2018

Spurius_Lucilius wrote: »

According to the newest quote from Gina, we won't get any Class balance changes.
So it seems like Magden will never be buffed.

Excuse me?

And what's the reasoning behind this?

"We will never achieve balance so we're not supposed to try anymore!"

Ludof · May 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

Spurius_Lucilius wrote: »

According to the newest quote from Gina, we won't get any Class balance changes.
So it seems like Magden will never be buffed.

Excuse me?

And what's the reasoning behind this?

"We will never achieve balance so we're not supposed to try anymore!"

Magden has just been nerfed since it came out.

The healing tree has been buffed few times, that's it.

No CC, no reliable damage, no class shield, no execute, bear ulti which has to be double slotted.

Play magsorc and enjoy the love.

This is literally P2L.

_Ahala_ · May 2018

Magden in Summerset will probably the worst setup by a mile out of any for literally everything next patch... and that’s ok for zos... but hey, at least stamden exists in a “balanced” state so they will still be able to sell it in the crown store

Vercingetorix · May 2018

Just thought I'd leave this here for all the sad Wardens. This was posted earlier this morning with regards to the Summerset PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys,

We truly appreciate all the time and effort everyone has put into writing their feedback on current class balance. In hindsight, we realized the previous patch notes may have implied that balance changes specifically for class abilities would be included in upcoming PTS patches for Update 18. To be clear, our focus for the remaining PTS updates will be iteration and polish for the Psijic Order skill line, Light and Heavy Attack balancing, updating item sets, and fixing bugs. We are, however, collecting all your class feedback and will work on improving class balance in future updates.

Link to Post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5116620#Comment_5116620

So there you have it. Wardens will remain dead for another 3 months, likely longer. Feel free to re-roll to Sorc, DK, or NB.

Princess_Ciri · May 2018

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Magden in Summerset will probably the worst setup by a mile out of any for literally everything next patch... and that’s ok for zos... but hey, at least stamden exists in a “balanced” state so they will still be able to sell it in the crown store

Magicka Wardens are capable of doing more DPS than Magicka Sorcs on the pts and even on live they are very viable magicka classes but pls continue telling me how much they suck

casparian · May 2018

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Just thought I'd leave this here for all the sad Wardens. This was posted earlier this morning with regards to the Summerset PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys,

We truly appreciate all the time and effort everyone has put into writing their feedback on current class balance. In hindsight, we realized the previous patch notes may have implied that balance changes specifically for class abilities would be included in upcoming PTS patches for Update 18. To be clear, our focus for the remaining PTS updates will be iteration and polish for the Psijic Order skill line, Light and Heavy Attack balancing, updating item sets, and fixing bugs. We are, however, collecting all your class feedback and will work on improving class balance in future updates.

Link to Post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5116620#Comment_5116620

So there you have it. Wardens will remain dead for another 3 months, likely longer. Feel free to re-roll to Sorc, DK, or NB.

Easier to just race-change and play stamwarden. Like everyone else.

tinythinker · May 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

Spurius_Lucilius wrote: »

According to the newest quote from Gina, we won't get any Class balance changes.
So it seems like Magden will never be buffed.

Excuse me?

And what's the reasoning behind this?

"We will never achieve balance so we're not supposed to try anymore!"

Answer:

We truly appreciate all the time and effort everyone has put into writing their feedback on current class balance. In hindsight, we realized the previous patch notes may have implied that balance changes specifically for class abilities would be included in upcoming PTS patches for Update 18. To be clear, our focus for the remaining PTS updates will be iteration and polish for the Psijic Order skill line, Light and Heavy Attack balancing, updating item sets, and fixing bugs. We are, however, collecting all your class feedback and will work on improving class balance in future updates.

Delayed posting due to distraction. I see other posted it already. But there you go.

Waffennacht · May 2018

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Magden in Summerset will probably the worst setup by a mile out of any for literally everything next patch... and that’s ok for zos... but hey, at least stamden exists in a “balanced” state so they will still be able to sell it in the crown store

Magicka Wardens are capable of doing more DPS than Magicka Sorcs on the pts and even on live they are very viable magicka classes but pls continue telling me how much they suck

I have yet to see a Higher than Sorc Possible parse.

Every single good warden parse I've seen is still less than the other mag classes.

I would like to see this higher than Sorc parse?

Second - it's PvE, the only competition between classes is whom can do the same content faster. It's not like PvP where balance means you can't compete.

Princess_Ciri · May 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

I would like to see this higher than Sorc parse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs1YV7eK8Qk

As for PvP, Wardens are still absolutely fine, they have so much group utility there I have no idea why you think they wouldn't be viable.