This game makes "L2P" difficult.

Violynne · May 2018

I've played this game off and on for the last 4 years, and I'm not ashamed to admit I still don't understand it. Rather, I'm angry because I don't. As much as I see people try to offer help, most of it is wasted on me (and others who are in the same boat).

Analogy: If I give you a list of ingredients to a recipe, what good are they if we don't get what we're supposed to do with them.

But this goes even further: why are you choosing those ingredients!

All I see online are builds, but no information on how to use those builds. It gets worse when trying to learn from the game, which is so poorly lacking in information, it turns into a difficulty.

Let me show you what I mean:
I have a weapon with a fire enchantment. It does "X" damage. Great. But, we all know this damage isn't applied with every hit. What's missing? Two critical pieces of information - 1) Does it hit every time the cool down is over or is it a percentage chance to be applied and 2) What's the gorram cool down?!

Now, let's say I find some gear that says "Applies 150% weapon enchant and lowers the cool down by 50%". Okay... how in the world does this help me when I don't even know what the basic weapons does!

I'm not looking to be BiS or max DPS. I just want to understand how to utilize my skills better so I'm not button mashing all the damn time.

In every video, I see solo players taking on world/dungeon bosses, and most start off with buffing themselves (with what, I have no clue, but I'll get there). Then they attack these things and barely drop an ounce of health.

When I'm looking at basic sets I can craft, I'm trying to learn what perks I can use. Then I see a video like this:
Top 10 Worst Sets and this got me to thinking how in the world anyone knows this stuff. Thank goodness I'm not wearing any of these sets, but can you imagine people out there are and have no clue?

Is it just me or does the game require more information? I see the Skill Advisor has been added, and it's a great start, but what good is it when it doesn't say why these are recommended skills.

So, tl;dr (sorry about that), have any of you seasoned players videos the rest of us can watch where you clearly explain why you chose the skills and how they work?

I can't watch another build video. It's a recipe I can't cook without burning it.

Thanks!

Nestor · May 2018

This one of those games where almost everything is easy, once you know how. It's the Know How that is not always apparent. I get that the devs want a community to be built up around the game and most of the "Tribal Knowlege" comes from there, but that is not efficient or reliable.

First thing, have you tried the Help Menus? Hit F1 while in game and there is a surprising amount of information in there about the How's and sometimes even the Why's. If you have not been in there, you will be quite pleased with what all is explained

As for Skills, I like Deltia's explanations the best as he goes to great lengths to explain how each skill or set bonus works and what they work with. Alcast does this to an extent. Xynode is good too, but he gets a little scattered on his videos, but he does get to the explanation eventually. Go to Youtube and search each name for their channels.

@MissBizz does some great intro tutorial videos for most aspects of crafting and the game.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrVBB-ecSJdwHGYH264c6mA

Sunshine Daydream has one of the most extensive crafting sites out there, worth a look:

http://www.sunshine-daydream.us/ESO/crafting.html

Jhalin · May 2018

I think if you familiarize yourself with the general mechanics in a broad sense then you’ll be much better off.

Gear sets are “the best” or “the worst” based on their stats compared to other sets, their damage, uptimes, synergy with certain classes.

Weapon enchantments have a 20% chance to provide on direct damage or light/heavy attacks when off cooldown. This is mentioned in a tooltip somewhere, I’m inclined to say on the glyphs themselves but I’m not certain.

Buffs are just...buffs. You use the abilities before entering combat because they provide in combat utility. Things like Siphoning Strikes (for NB), Igneous Weapons (for DK), Extended Ritual (for Templar), Hurricane (for Sorcs), or Lotus (for Wardens).

Combat is simply laying down ground DoTs, applying targeted DoTs, then using a spammable until it’s time to recast the first two.

josiahva · May 2018

And there you run into the problem with other people's builds. It doesnt matter what the build is, its only good if played in this exact way. I suggest ignoring what the best BIS gear is and just play sets that work for your playstyle and favored role. As an example...on my tank I often wear Imperium/Plague Doctor/Chudan. These aren't what are considered BIS tank sets by any means...but I am still able to easily tank the hardest content in the game because this particular combination fits my particular tanking style, BIS or not. The same goes for my DPS gear...its not BIS, but that really doesnt matter...its never worth playing someone else's build...simply find a build that works for you and practice, practice, practice. Swap out skills and enchants often to find what is most effective for YOU. Stop caring about what other people are running. As a DPS, set a DPS goal for yourself and keep changing up skills/rotations/gear until you hit your goal. BIS is BS, quite simply.

BozzyTheDrummer · May 2018

I was in the same boat as you a couple months ago. I have been playing ESO since it launched on console, but I have only recently been playing with specific builds, learning crafting, provisioning, enchanting, alchemy, learning to play with bufss to help my characters survive easier or power me up some more, etc...

What has helped me (not including videos) I read the forums A LOT. I read peoples conversations when discussing things that can help better their gameplay. I can watch the videos all day long, but they get old and repetitive. I learn these things better when reading. Also, I have my cousin that I play with that pretty much has every hour of every day to game, so he is my lifeline when I have questions. I do ask a lot of questions of what I am unsure about, and a lot of times I ask the same question over and over again. He gets mad sometimes, but for me, it helps. If i ask the same question over and over again, while I work to understand what he is explaining, it eventually clicks for me.

Before, I had no idea what buffs were, I didn't pay attention. I just slotted my offensive skills and morphed them to what I thought sounded cool, and I went in guns a blazing! This works for me in other ESO games, but not ESO. I learned real quick that what I was doing wasn't working, because I couldn't survive in game if my actual life depended on it.

I joined the forums finally to read and discuss with others on what they do to succeed in this game. there are a ton of people that are willing to help, some will even direct message you pouring out a ton of knowledge and advise.

I'm just now finally starting to get the hang of crafting and whatnot. What helps is starting the daily writs you have to do. They help you understand the basics when completing the crafting certifications. Further than that, I ask here in the forums and always get an answer that helps.

It takes time and as I said above, for me, things fall into place and just start making sense the more I do things.

jedtb16_ESO · May 2018

how did we ever manage back at the start?

Violynne · May 2018

Nestor wrote: »

I get that the devs want a community to be built up around the game and most of the "Tribal Knowlege" comes from there, but that is not efficient or reliable.

Indeed.

First thing, have you tried the Help Menus? Hit F1 while in game and there is a surprising amount of information in there about the How's and sometimes even the Why's. If you have not been in there, you will be quite pleased with what all is explained

I'm on console, and the help section is about as basic as it can get. Nothing goes into details about skills, procs, and how to look to make the best of what we can craft/buy/find in the game.

As for Skills, I like Deltia's explanations the best as he goes to great lengths to explain how each skill or set bonus works and what they work with. Alcast does this to an extent. Xynode is good too, but he gets a little scattered on his videos, but he does get to the explanation eventually. Go to Youtube and search each name for their channels.

Thanks. I'll take a look at Deltia's videos and see what he has to offer. I find Alcast talks to people who know what they're doing, which isn't me.

@MissBizz does some great intro tutorial videos for most aspects of crafting and the game.

I love her videos and she's the polar opposite of Alcast, directing much useful information to new people, but then stops short on getting complicated. An absolute must for beginners!

I, unfortunately, do not have a ton of spells memorized, which makes it difficult for me to explain my frustration.

Morphing skills is the easy part. Understanding some of the tooltips isn't. Some are quite vague "Increase damage for 8 seconds" (what damage? AoE? Direct? WTF!) while others are more cryptic with "Increase status effects by 150%"... what status effects on a basic dagger? Enchants?

Thank goodness for Vigor. Without it... I'd be even worse.

I'm getting tired of spamming Vigor when I see others play so well, they don't even care about their health.

OrdoHermetica · May 2018

Nestor wrote: »

As for Skills, I like Deltia's explanations the best as he goes to great lengths to explain how each skill or set bonus works and what they work with. Alcast does this to an extent. Xynode is good too, but he gets a little scattered on his videos, but he does get to the explanation eventually. Go to Youtube and search each name for their channels.

I want to second this. Alcast's builds are, in my opinion, typically slightly better, but Deltia does a far, far better job of explaining the hows as whys behind sets, mechanics, meta, etc. Watch his videos, and you will for sure come away with a much better understanding of how this game works. It was a major part of my learning process.

N2woR · May 2018

I miss Deltia, his content was top notch for me when I started. Much respect to the guy

ArcVelarian · May 2018

I will say there needs to be an in-game tutorial on "weaving". It's a little silly to make it a core aspect of DPS and yet have no real mention of it anywhere in the game itself.

Takes-No-Prisoner · May 2018

I'm on console too OP. So I understand your struggle. I have been there.

Advice if I may? Go with a themed idea for your build. Build around this theme, it will help. I have been doing that for the past couple of days with a PvP build I am working around. And have found a lot of good, but small successes.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · May 2018

Combat in general in this game is counter-intuitive if you've played other MMOs or even rpgs in general. I love this game for a number of reasons, but the combat is a huge point of frustration for me.

In summary, there are 3 reasons why "L2P" is so difficult for new players, and why there is a such a huge dps disparity between new players and the "pros".

1) The rigid, new player-unfriendly UI. Bar swapping is an admittedly creative way to add pointless complexity to combat, and fixing the cursor means that any of us who prefer clicking our abilities are SOL. ESO's UI is "adapt or die", and those who are unwilling to change their entire playstyle that they've built over years of MMOs and RPGs will fall behind.

2) The lack of a real global cooldown and the bizarre embracing of a broken, exploitable system in the name of making things "more fast paced". Having light attacks and heavy attacks being additional elements to combat is a cool idea, but it just makes things too complicated in practice. Those who can integrate it into their rotation and clip animations flourish, and those who cannot suffer. It is the single greatest reason behind the dps disparity we see today.

3) Very short durations on pretty much everything, which serve to make rotations more punishing and necessitate even more bar-swapping. Between both MMOs I used to play, there were maybe 5 DoTs that had 10s or shorter durations. Most have 15 or even 20-30s. 8-10s DoTs and 20s self buffs make rotations brutal, which is only exacerbated by the bar swapping nonsense.

Again, there is a lot I love about ESO, but they decided to "go their own way" when it came to combat and wound up with a system that you have to rebuild yourself from the ground up to learn, and even then you might not be very good at it.

ReverseVenom · May 2018

join a guild with more knowledgeable members. They can show you the ropes while playing with you to get a feel for how you play. Who knows, they might suggest a whole other class that you might enjoy more

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2018

I've said it in other threads, they really need a compendium of base values and expressions so you can do the math.

griffkhalifa · May 2018

I agree it can take a while to fully understand this game. It's frustrating but eventually it will click. Simply "playing" won't get you there. Doing quests over and over won't teach you the nuances of the game because you're not really challenged enough to figure this stuff out.

Once you get into harder endgame activities it almost because necessary to teach yourself the nuances of the game. There are so many guides that offer help. There isn't one thing you're going to read that's going to make everything click. I recommend watching/reading guides from alcasthq.com and deltiasgaming.com (I think those are the websites).

And finally, I'm still learning new things after playing since release. Honestly I think that's what keeps the game fresh for me. If I mastered and knew everything about this game I'm not sure I would find it as appealing as I do now.

zaria · May 2018

josiahva wrote: »

And there you run into the problem with other people's builds. It doesnt matter what the build is, its only good if played in this exact way. I suggest ignoring what the best BIS gear is and just play sets that work for your playstyle and favored role. As an example...on my tank I often wear Imperium/Plague Doctor/Chudan. These aren't what are considered BIS tank sets by any means...but I am still able to easily tank the hardest content in the game because this particular combination fits my particular tanking style, BIS or not. The same goes for my DPS gear...its not BIS, but that really doesnt matter...its never worth playing someone else's build...simply find a build that works for you and practice, practice, practice. Swap out skills and enchants often to find what is most effective for YOU. Stop caring about what other people are running. As a DPS, set a DPS goal for yourself and keep changing up skills/rotations/gear until you hit your goal. BIS is BS, quite simply.

This, builds for noobs with sloppy rotations and high lag would be nice, I assume proc sets would be perfect here as its free damage, however sets who require you to manage the proc like mechanical accuracy or the healer set from the new trial will be bad.
Now use this in dungeons there you have to move all the time as most of the floor is stupid

Also more focus on second tire sets who is 2-3% worse but is easy to get.
My problem is that the theory crafting in eso fly over my head, kerbal space program is way easier as its just rocket science.

Kel · May 2018

It cuts both ways with too much or too little info.
Xynode is a content creator that really goes in depth about his builds...the how and why of it, but....he often takes alot of *** because his build videos can run for a hour or more.

Jayman1000 · May 2018

It's very true, and it's not in the good way. It's about hidden knowledge that it is nigh impossible to learn from just playing the game. You have to obtain the knowledge from somewhere else, for example from google searches you'll find all these builds, items, where they drop, the best skill setup, the best CP setup etc etc. Doing it merely by ingame methods is ridiculously ineffective and time consuming. The game is not build around you learning by playing. It's as as simple as that.

But then, what's even worse: when you then have acquired the knowledge and have obtained items, gear, skills setup etc, the game becomes a snooze fest of easiness.

jedtb16_ESO · May 2018

i don't believe this thread.

i learned combat in this game by figuring out how to beat doshia (before the nerf). this was just after launch. figured out how to weave and kite, keep moving and keep your resources up.

again for the people here this was back just after launch.

you really need someone to tell you how to play a game?

TheUndeadAmulet · May 2018

Most of the in depth things of abilities, enchantments, sets and other things can be learnt through GilliamTheRogue's videos.

At least that's how i learnt it. Of course a majority of his videos are 40 mins to over an hour long but once you have watched them you should have a pretty good understand of the game.

N2woR · May 2018

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

i don't believe this thread.

i learned combat in this game by figuring out how to beat doshia (before the nerf). this was just after launch. figured out how to weave and kite, keep moving and keep your resources up.

again for the people here this was back just after launch.

you really need someone to tell you how to play a game?

We had time to learn back then, everyone was new. Today there’s no such chance for the Op or new players to learn, most want them booted out of dungeons the second they see their cp or lack of. We grow with the game, working out weaving, sets etc along the way, content creators put all that was learnt out there for others to catch up on because learning outside the game is the only way new players will learn these days.... sad but true

AlnilamE · May 2018

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

how did we ever manage back at the start?

I don't know about you, but I ran around with a bow and a resto staff, crafted gear at the closest set station because it sounded cool (Whitestrake anyone?) in whatever weight I had already researched enough traits to craft that set. I didn't think DoTs were worth the time of day and that cloak was useless because it was too short. And it took me a while to appreciate crafted food and potions, and possibly that I should be enchanting my gear, but I can't quite remember that.

It was a lot of fun, though. :-)

jedtb16_ESO · May 2018

AlnilamE wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

how did we ever manage back at the start?

I don't know about you, but I ran around with a bow and a resto staff, crafted gear at the closest set station because it sounded cool (Whitestrake anyone?) in whatever weight I had already researched enough traits to craft that set. I didn't think DoTs were worth the time of day and that cloak was useless because it was too short. And it took me a while to appreciate crafted food and potions, and possibly that I should be enchanting my gear, but I can't quite remember that.

It was a lot of fun, though. :-)

exactly..... and we managed to figure it out.

Kodrac · May 2018

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

i don't believe this thread.

i learned combat in this game by figuring out how to beat doshia (before the nerf). this was just after launch. figured out how to weave and kite, keep moving and keep your resources up.

again for the people here this was back just after launch.

you really need someone to tell you how to play a game?

Ahhh good ol' Doshia. You either learned how to bash/interrupt and take out "adds" or you fell behind. The game doesn't teach you anything anymore so I can see newer players hitting a wall at 50 now. You can pew pew your way to 50 and be hit smack in the face with mechanics you don't know how to manage in your first dungeon run. It's all uphill from there.

Kalgert · May 2018

Most of what I read in this thread is a whole lot of nonsense. Or at the very least, a lot of self-congratulative drivel.

Do I sound annoyed? Well I will admit that I am somewhat peeved by how the PvE works in this game, and just how people say one thing but then claim that the thing mentioned is completely wrong.

I have a Nord DPS character that I invested a lot of time in, I try to play as a DPS, I find myself outclassed by everyone else who go in, throw a few abilities down and end up doing a hundred million billion damage. If I can even stay and witness it long enough before I get booted because they weren't happy with my 10k DPS.

Or how about the fact that people have an allergy to Two-handed weapons. You wanna run around with a maul or greatsword? Well too bad, it's not good for PvE (Apparently outclassed by dual-wielding) because sustained damage is needed more.

Or how you have to end up digging up information on the hundreds of item sets just so you can find a set that "Works". And even then you'll have to combine that set with another set. No walking around using only one set bonus!

The thing that bothers me most is the rather... Arrogant way of how people say "Oh it isn't so hard", meanwhile they run around blowing up everything they see. It sounds a lot like a "*** you got mine" attitude, with the idea of "I managed to make it, therefore everyone else can, and if they can't then they can go away".

I seriously gave up on playing as a DPS and just switched to tanking. At the very least I can have an excuse for not doing millions of damage.

P.S For some reason I am more capable as a DPS when I am playing with Magicka based characters. How sad is that?

Anotherone773 · May 2018

@Violynne Your "issue" is exactly why i dont go cookie cutter meta. If you try to imitate someone else all the time you never learn how to play, you learn how to imitate. I recommend only using meta builds, videos, and other "research" as a guide rather than set in stone instructions.

Not everyone plays the same way, has the same abilities( or dexterity), or the same desire to be the best. Its better to adapt builds to your playstyle, abilities, and goals than it is to try to adapt yourself to someone elses build.

for example: Alcast builds are good for pointing you in the right direction, however, unless you are end game raiding or hardcore pvping, its kind of pointless to copy the build exactly. Instead what you should do is take a reputable build like Alcast and use it as a guide. But more importantly you should figure out the WHY on something in the build. Why was this set used and not that set? Why these abilities? Why champion points here.

By questioning the WHY of everything, you teach yourself the mechanics. Then you are no longer trying to imitate but building and changing your characters to suit you and what you use them for. The same goes for pretty much everything in this game.

EDIT: Also dont believe the nonsense you read on the forums about needing 30-40-50k dps to do content. All content in this game can be completed with all DPS doing 20-25k dps. It just takes a bit longer, but is perfectly doable.

griffkhalifa · May 2018

AlnilamE wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

how did we ever manage back at the start?

I don't know about you, but I ran around with a bow and a resto staff, crafted gear at the closest set station because it sounded cool (Whitestrake anyone?) in whatever weight I had already researched enough traits to craft that set. I didn't think DoTs were worth the time of day and that cloak was useless because it was too short. And it took me a while to appreciate crafted food and potions, and possibly that I should be enchanting my gear, but I can't quite remember that.

It was a lot of fun, though. :-)

Lol I spent over $100k on a Whitestrake set that was VR 1 when I first started.

jerj6925 · May 2018

Violynne wrote: »

I've played this game off and on for the last 4 years, and I'm not ashamed to admit I still don't understand it. Rather, I'm angry because I don't. As much as I see people try to offer help, most of it is wasted on me (and others who are in the same boat).

Analogy: If I give you a list of ingredients to a recipe, what good are they if we don't get what we're supposed to do with them.

But this goes even further: why are you choosing those ingredients!

All I see online are builds, but no information on how to use those builds. It gets worse when trying to learn from the game, which is so poorly lacking in information, it turns into a difficulty.

Let me show you what I mean:
I have a weapon with a fire enchantment. It does "X" damage. Great. But, we all know this damage isn't applied with every hit. What's missing? Two critical pieces of information - 1) Does it hit every time the cool down is over or is it a percentage chance to be applied and 2) What's the gorram cool down?!

Now, let's say I find some gear that says "Applies 150% weapon enchant and lowers the cool down by 50%". Okay... how in the world does this help me when I don't even know what the basic weapons does!

I'm not looking to be BiS or max DPS. I just want to understand how to utilize my skills better so I'm not button mashing all the damn time.

In every video, I see solo players taking on world/dungeon bosses, and most start off with buffing themselves (with what, I have no clue, but I'll get there). Then they attack these things and barely drop an ounce of health.

When I'm looking at basic sets I can craft, I'm trying to learn what perks I can use. Then I see a video like this:
Top 10 Worst Sets and this got me to thinking how in the world anyone knows this stuff. Thank goodness I'm not wearing any of these sets, but can you imagine people out there are and have no clue?

Is it just me or does the game require more information? I see the Skill Advisor has been added, and it's a great start, but what good is it when it doesn't say why these are recommended skills.

So, tl;dr (sorry about that), have any of you seasoned players videos the rest of us can watch where you clearly explain why you chose the skills and how they work?

I can't watch another build video. It's a recipe I can't cook without burning it.

Thanks!

This game caters to the elitist and people who spend 8+ hours a day playing and figuring everything out to the 10th decimal place, never mind it’s the casual gamer who really supports this game financially. Any way at some point the power gamers (that’s what they like to be called) were complaining there is no skill to combat and that’s where the Dev’s got the idea to make combat more and more complicated… buy making your mash buttons in a redundant pattern aka weaving or your attack routine. What sucks about this is if you suffer from the lag you will never be successful in PVP because most of the time you have to repeatedly tap a button before the effect goes off.

DoctorESO · May 2018

Violynne wrote: »

I've played this game off and on for the last 4 years, and I'm not ashamed to admit I still don't understand it. Rather, I'm angry because I don't. As much as I see people try to offer help, most of it is wasted on me (and others who are in the same boat).

Analogy: If I give you a list of ingredients to a recipe, what good are they if we don't get what we're supposed to do with them.

But this goes even further: why are you choosing those ingredients!

All I see online are builds, but no information on how to use those builds. It gets worse when trying to learn from the game, which is so poorly lacking in information, it turns into a difficulty.

Let me show you what I mean:
I have a weapon with a fire enchantment. It does "X" damage. Great. But, we all know this damage isn't applied with every hit. What's missing? Two critical pieces of information - 1) Does it hit every time the cool down is over or is it a percentage chance to be applied and 2) What's the gorram cool down?!

Now, let's say I find some gear that says "Applies 150% weapon enchant and lowers the cool down by 50%". Okay... how in the world does this help me when I don't even know what the basic weapons does!

I'm not looking to be BiS or max DPS. I just want to understand how to utilize my skills better so I'm not button mashing all the damn time.

In every video, I see solo players taking on world/dungeon bosses, and most start off with buffing themselves (with what, I have no clue, but I'll get there). Then they attack these things and barely drop an ounce of health.

When I'm looking at basic sets I can craft, I'm trying to learn what perks I can use. Then I see a video like this:
Top 10 Worst Sets and this got me to thinking how in the world anyone knows this stuff. Thank goodness I'm not wearing any of these sets, but can you imagine people out there are and have no clue?

Is it just me or does the game require more information? I see the Skill Advisor has been added, and it's a great start, but what good is it when it doesn't say why these are recommended skills.

So, tl;dr (sorry about that), have any of you seasoned players videos the rest of us can watch where you clearly explain why you chose the skills and how they work?

I can't watch another build video. It's a recipe I can't cook without burning it.

Thanks!

Yes, the game could make great strides by adding some education into the game itself. The skill advisor is a nice step in that direction, but it does not compare to what your idea (giving the why).

Waffennacht · May 2018

First off you already said it:

You need to memorize all the abilities.

What they don't tell you, and what you do need to know is scaling of resources and abilities.

Fastest (not exact, but easy) is 10 resource (mag or Stam) is worth 1 dmg (spell or wpn)

The why to everything else becomes clear once you have sets and abilities memorized

SilverIce58 · May 2018

My question is: is this your first MMO? (I'm not trying to be snarky or shady or what have you, it'd make it easier to understand where you're coming from if that question is answered.) If it is, then it's understandable. When you first start playing MMOs, you get all sorts of these things and mechanics that you've never seen before (mainly because single player games don't have them), and it's very, very easy to become confused and disorientated.