This game makes "L2P" difficult.

DoctorESO

SilverIce58 wrote: »

My question is: is this your first MMO? (I'm not trying to be snarky or shady or what have you, it'd make it easier to understand where you're coming from if that question is answered.) If it is, then it's understandable. When you first start playing MMOs, you get all sorts of these things and mechanics that you've never seen before (mainly because single player games don't have them), and it's very, very easy to become confused and disorientated.

This is a good question. I wonder if ESO is a lot of people's first MMO - more so than with other MMOs, which can be the case if a lot of the players came here after playing the single player Elder Scrolls games. Maybe that lends support for the OP's idea.

Anotherone773

DoctorESO wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

My question is: is this your first MMO? (I'm not trying to be snarky or shady or what have you, it'd make it easier to understand where you're coming from if that question is answered.) If it is, then it's understandable. When you first start playing MMOs, you get all sorts of these things and mechanics that you've never seen before (mainly because single player games don't have them), and it's very, very easy to become confused and disorientated.

This is a good question. I wonder if ESO is a lot of people's first MMO - more so than with other MMOs, which can be the case if a lot of the players came here after playing the single player Elder Scrolls games. Maybe that lends support for the OP's idea.

The answer to your question is YES. ESO has a high number of people that never played an MMO compared to other MMOS from what i can tell. And that is because its a sequel to a very popular single player game so naturally some of those players are going to say " going to be years before next TES title, i guess i will give it a try". More importantly, i think a lot of single players are "forced" into playing. Either they play the MMO or they go without so they give it a try and find it difficult to adapt to an MMO style of play.

SydneyGrey

I always appreciated Deltia's web site, because he goes into detail about WHY you might want to use a particular skill or armor set, instead of just assuming that you already know.
http://deltiasgaming.com/#
On that site, click on "Elder Scrolls Online" in the drop-down menus, and then "Builds" (or whatever else you want). It helped me a lot when I was first learning.

Violynne

SilverIce58 wrote: »

My question is: is this your first MMO?

Yes, it is. Sorry about not stating this in the OP. I had made major edits to shorten the post because the original was very long, and this fact was cut in the edit.

I'd like to make a correction given some of the comments I've seen: I'm not looking for builds, and I'm not following anyone's build.

I wear 5 pieces Hundings for the weapon buff. 5 pieces (but registers 4) Night's Silence for the stamina (Summerset turns this to 5) traits with Divines. 3 jewelry of reduced stamina at 840 max stamina each. Daggers/Bow enchanted with Okari. All legendary.

This is what suits me, as I'm learning how stamina and Mundus work together. Currently running Warrior, which definitely improves per attack LA/HA, but I think I like Thief better for the crit. Both work really well to take out any boss in delves.

Notice I didn't say dungeon.

I use the same four spells over and over:
Ambush (sneak crit on first target, gets me 22k (warrior)/24k (thief)
Surprise attack (after LA on Ambush, crits 90% for 11k)
Rapid strikes or Steel Tornado.


That's. It. These 4 spells, with my 41.2k stamina bar is OP in every public dungeon in the game. I don't have any additional points in CP toward damage. Most are either in stam/health/mag regen or phys/spell/crit damage protection. Who needs more damage when this is good enough?

Don't answer that question. I think we understand each other when I say this confidence is going to get me killed in any vet dungeon in the game, which I've yet to experience.

This fake confidence gets me killed with world bosses. World. Bosses. Pale in comparison to what lies in vet dungeons.

I refuse to allow a group to carry me, and I know I'm not ready.

I can read anyone's rotation. That's the easy part.

What I want to know is why they put those skills in the rotation.

I did watch a Deltia video last night on the stamBlade rotation and that was one of the most informative videos I've ever seen. His description on precisely why he chose those skills is what's lacking in this game.

This is why I struggle.

Remember the buffs I mentioned before? Here's one I learned thanks to Deltia: Grim Focus morphed to Relentless Focus.

A skill I have never used, but ignored because I barely use LA attacks (this is changing thanks to rotation knowledge).

I fully understand why people get kicked from groups despite being CP720.

But I also understand it's not entirely their fault.

This game makes it comfortably easy to spam the same 4 attacks and take out enemies easily.

Just not the tough ones.

lassitershawn

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Combat in general in this game is counter-intuitive if you've played other MMOs or even rpgs in general. I love this game for a number of reasons, but the combat is a huge point of frustration for me.

In summary, there are 3 reasons why "L2P" is so difficult for new players, and why there is a such a huge dps disparity between new players and the "pros".

1) The rigid, new player-unfriendly UI. Bar swapping is an admittedly creative way to add pointless complexity to combat, and fixing the cursor means that any of us who prefer clicking our abilities are SOL. ESO's UI is "adapt or die", and those who are unwilling to change their entire playstyle that they've built over years of MMOs and RPGs will fall behind.

2) The lack of a real global cooldown and the bizarre embracing of a broken, exploitable system in the name of making things "more fast paced". Having light attacks and heavy attacks being additional elements to combat is a cool idea, but it just makes things too complicated in practice. Those who can integrate it into their rotation and clip animations flourish, and those who cannot suffer. It is the single greatest reason behind the dps disparity we see today.

3) Very short durations on pretty much everything, which serve to make rotations more punishing and necessitate even more bar-swapping. Between both MMOs I used to play, there were maybe 5 DoTs that had 10s or shorter durations. Most have 15 or even 20-30s. 8-10s DoTs and 20s self buffs make rotations brutal, which is only exacerbated by the bar swapping nonsense.

Again, there is a lot I love about ESO, but they decided to "go their own way" when it came to combat and wound up with a system that you have to rebuild yourself from the ground up to learn, and even then you might not be very good at it.

By "clicking our abilities" do you mean scrolling over with the cursor and clicking them? So if I want to cast LL followed by a Mages' Wrath I have to manually move to and then click on each one (and target LL as well)? That seems like it would serve no purpose other than making combat ridiculously slow paced.

It seems like all of your suggestions are designed to slow down the pace of the game, which I definitely do not agree with. Fast paced combat that requires paying attention to multiple things at once is one of my favorite parts of this game.

anitajoneb17_ESO

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

how did we ever manage back at the start?

We didn't. But back at the start there were :
- Difficult overland content, especially in vet zones, which allowed us to progress and practice with a reasonable learning curve
- Everyone was learning. You didn't come across anyone pulling 10x your DPS and calling you a noob
- There were soft caps. Noone was pulling 10x your DPS and calling you a noob
- There were no (yet) elitist groups telling how supposedly "easy" it is to multiply your DPS by 10
- Noone has - yet - 9 traits researched, no weapon ultimates, no DLC crafted sets, etc. so there were far less sets and combinations available
- Noone had beaten vDSA, vSO HM and the like YET, so we were all progressing in the base game vet dungeons which were, back then, suitably scaled in difficulty (yes yes, we used to spend hours wiping on Bogdan, remember...)
- There was no "meta" yet. Nowadays a new player joining a guild with the intention to play a healer will immediately be sent to WGT to farm spellpower cure. He will then wear it and be thrown in vet group dungeons with no idea as to how to heal.
- The difference between a new or bad player , and a good, experienced player, was 1:2, and not 1:10 like it is now.

So there's that.

zaria

N2woR wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

i don't believe this thread.

i learned combat in this game by figuring out how to beat doshia (before the nerf). this was just after launch. figured out how to weave and kite, keep moving and keep your resources up.

again for the people here this was back just after launch.

you really need someone to tell you how to play a game?

We had time to learn back then, everyone was new. Today there’s no such chance for the Op or new players to learn, most want them booted out of dungeons the second they see their cp or lack of. We grow with the game, working out weaving, sets etc along the way, content creators put all that was learnt out there for others to catch up on because learning outside the game is the only way new players will learn these days.... sad but true

More an issue that you queue for random dungeon as low level character and get grouped with one cp400 doing random normal, one cp720 who farm the weapon and an cp200 needing quest. yes it was an fast run but you did not learn anything.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Violynne wrote: »

This fake confidence gets me killed with world bosses. World. Bosses. Pale in comparison to what lies in vet dungeons.

World bosses aren't supposed to be soloed. And they're not consistent across the world. Some are easily soloable, some are difficult to solo, some are impossible to solo, some are very hard even in a group of 2 or 3 people.
Don't take a failure at a world boss as an indicator of your own strength or lack thereof.

Do dungeons. If possible with people of your level and skill, and learn together. Start with normal dungeons (but most of them will be too easy to learn anything) then go on with vet dungeons. Some are far easier than others - noticeably the Maj-Al-Ragath dungeons, such as Spindleclutch and Banished Cells. And go from there.

Soloing group dungeons is not bad either. The "bosses" in there are all soloable - albeit sometimes a little bit tough.

JKorr

Violynne wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

My question is: is this your first MMO?

Yes, it is. Sorry about not stating this in the OP. I had made major edits to shorten the post because the original was very long, and this fact was cut in the edit.

I'd like to make a correction given some of the comments I've seen: I'm not looking for builds, and I'm not following anyone's build.

I wear 5 pieces Hundings for the weapon buff. 5 pieces (but registers 4) Night's Silence for the stamina (Summerset turns this to 5) traits with Divines. 3 jewelry of reduced stamina at 840 max stamina each. Daggers/Bow enchanted with Okari. All legendary.

This is what suits me, as I'm learning how stamina and Mundus work together. Currently running Warrior, which definitely improves per attack LA/HA, but I think I like Thief better for the crit. Both work really well to take out any boss in delves.

Notice I didn't say dungeon.

I use the same four spells over and over:
Ambush (sneak crit on first target, gets me 22k (warrior)/24k (thief)
Surprise attack (after LA on Ambush, crits 90% for 11k)
Rapid strikes or Steel Tornado.


That's. It. These 4 spells, with my 41.2k stamina bar is OP in every public dungeon in the game. I don't have any additional points in CP toward damage. Most are either in stam/health/mag regen or phys/spell/crit damage protection. Who needs more damage when this is good enough?

Don't answer that question. I think we understand each other when I say this confidence is going to get me killed in any vet dungeon in the game, which I've yet to experience.

This fake confidence gets me killed with world bosses. World. Bosses. Pale in comparison to what lies in vet dungeons.

I refuse to allow a group to carry me, and I know I'm not ready.

I can read anyone's rotation. That's the easy part.

What I want to know is why they put those skills in the rotation.

I did watch a Deltia video last night on the stamBlade rotation and that was one of the most informative videos I've ever seen. His description on precisely why he chose those skills is what's lacking in this game.

This is why I struggle.

Remember the buffs I mentioned before? Here's one I learned thanks to Deltia: Grim Focus morphed to Relentless Focus.

A skill I have never used, but ignored because I barely use LA attacks (this is changing thanks to rotation knowledge).

I fully understand why people get kicked from groups despite being CP720.

But I also understand it's not entirely their fault.

This game makes it comfortably easy to spam the same 4 attacks and take out enemies easily.

Just not the tough ones.

I've seen so many people say "don't worry about gear until you hit cp160, just wear whatever", and I can't understand that. Before you hit the "need hundreds of mats for your final set of gear" you can try out any and every set in the game to find which ones suit your play style. If you have a good guild, crafters can make you gear, usually free or give them the mats. Sometimes the best combination for you isn't going to be the "ideal" that the theorycrafters came up with.

My one tanky type character now uses Hundings and Morkuldin's; all with infused trait, and all enchanted, mostly with stamina, and health. I don't have interest in trials, but a guildie and I went through Direfrost the other night, had fun, and, while it was probably not the fastest run ever because I'd never done it before, we cleared it in short order. My setup wouldn't work for the uber leet groups, and I'd never get to do pledges, but it works for me. I'm trying out other combinations for another tank, and I have a nb and couple of sorcerers that I'm still playing with sets for.

FakeFox

Violynne wrote: »

All I see online are builds, but no information on how to use those builds.

Most builds I see around include besides gear and CP also a showcase or at least written version of the rotation. In my opinion this should be enough for you to be able to simply copy it. Where you go from there has nothing to do with a build, but simply comes down to your own understanding of game mechanics.

I agree however that the game does a rather poor job of displaying numbers, which can make theory crafting and testing kind of frustrating from time to time.

Schattenfluegel

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

how did we ever manage back at the start?

We didn't. But back at the start there were :
- Difficult overland content, especially in vet zones, which allowed us to progress and practice with a reasonable learning curve
- Everyone was learning. You didn't come across anyone pulling 10x your DPS and calling you a noob
- There were soft caps. Noone was pulling 10x your DPS and calling you a noob
- There were no (yet) elitist groups telling how supposedly "easy" it is to multiply your DPS by 10
- Noone has - yet - 9 traits researched, no weapon ultimates, no DLC crafted sets, etc. so there were far less sets and combinations available
- Noone had beaten vDSA, vSO HM and the like YET, so we were all progressing in the base game vet dungeons which were, back then, suitably scaled in difficulty (yes yes, we used to spend hours wiping on Bogdan, remember...)
- There was no "meta" yet. Nowadays a new player joining a guild with the intention to play a healer will immediately be sent to WGT to farm spellpower cure. He will then wear it and be thrown in vet group dungeons with no idea as to how to heal.
- The difference between a new or bad player , and a good, experienced player, was 1:2, and not 1:10 like it is now.

So there's that.

And there werent even raids in the beginning, craglorn was released later..

Nestor

Violynne wrote: »

Don't answer that question. I think we understand each other when I say this confidence is going to get me killed in any vet dungeon in the game, which I've yet to experience.

This fake confidence gets me killed with world bosses. World. Bosses. Pale in comparison to what lies in vet dungeons.

World Bosses are essentially Vet Group Dungeon Bosses. Maybe not as much health, but they seem to hit harder. However, they are not meant to be solo'd, 4 to 6 players is the suggested amount for each one.

As for Vet, if you start out with the Tier 1 Vet Dungeons that are in Zone 1 and Zone 2, I think you will do just fine in a group setting. Also, being in a decent guild that runs Dungeon Events is a good way to learn how to operate in a group. Being in a group is way different for a DPS than running Solo. First, you have someone to heal you, second, you have a Tank that keeps the Boss occupied (usually) so you can run around and get position and avoid red as you need to. So, in other words, you don't need to be applying DPS all the time at a max rate. It's actually kind of relaxing. That being said, there are some tougher Vet Dungeons, usually the ones with a II in the name, like Darkshade II, that do have some DPS checks. But, by the time you get to those, you will be better able to handle them.

So, my advice, que for the non II Vet dungeons in the Group Finder if you don't have a guild to run these with.

Morgul667

Always thought this game lacks of dedicated tutorials quest that teach you your role

Also tells you where to find the details info you may need

Violynne

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

World bosses aren't supposed to be soloed.

They used to be.

But yes, I do know they're supposed to be group events, but...

Don't take a failure at a world boss as an indicator of your own strength or lack thereof.

... I don't do this. I use a couple of world bosses to test what I've learned. I don't expect to beat them. I use them to measure my own strengths and weaknesses (I learned how to dodge roll with them).

The bosses I go up against aren't very strong and have limited attacks. Better than a static dummy (which I don't have), because they fight back.

Do dungeons. If possible with people of your level and skill, and learn together. Start with normal dungeons (but most of them will be too easy to learn anything) then go on with vet dungeons. Some are far easier than others - noticeably the Maj-Al-Ragath dungeons, such as Spindleclutch and Banished Cells. And go from there.

This is what I'm working toward.

My stamBlade is CP510 right now, but this is only because she hit level 50 about 3 weeks ago. Still trying to level up some skills.

Soloing group dungeons is not bad either. The "bosses" in there are all soloable - albeit sometimes a little bit tough.

Interesting. I didn't think group dungeons were solo possible. I just assumed these required 16 persons or so. Any particular dungeons I should try?

Public dungeons are too easy. This would be another great tool to measure improvements.

Nestor

Violynne wrote: »

Interesting. I didn't think group dungeons were solo possible. I just assumed these required 16 persons or so. Any particular dungeons I should try?

Public dungeons are too easy. This would be another great tool to measure improvements.

The Group Dungeons in Zone 1 and 2 can be solo'd on Normal. Actually, most all the Normal Non DLC ones can be solo'd if you have a good Rotation under your belt. Notice I did not say Build, your Rotation is 90% of the equation, as Deltia kind of explains.

You need some decent Self Heals though, and the Trash Mobs are going to give you more issues than the Bosses are. Bosses can be kited and you can move around to avoid most attacks. It's going to be a challenge the first few times through, just so you know.

Merlin13KAGL

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

how did we ever manage back at the start?

I don't know about you, but I ran around with a bow and a resto staff, crafted gear at the closest set station because it sounded cool (Whitestrake anyone?) in whatever weight I had already researched enough traits to craft that set. I didn't think DoTs were worth the time of day and that cloak was useless because it was too short. And it took me a while to appreciate crafted food and potions, and possibly that I should be enchanting my gear, but I can't quite remember that.

It was a lot of fun, though. :-)

exactly..... and we managed to figure it out.

True, but how long did it take for that to happen? And how often were skills and gear changing completely from patch to patch?

How much more effective was your second full playthrough (to Vet, not necessarily full main line or anything?) than your first?

There are a lot of different knowledge and experience tiers, and I think what the OP is looking for is explanation of some of the subtleties in a build/rotation, even order (1-5) or skills that can turn 10k into 20k and 20k into 30k.

Those aspects, which are poorly taught in game and will return a vast assortment of answers and explanations from zone chat, some containing gems of eureka levels of enlightenment, some neutral, at best, and others so utterly incorrect (sometimes on purpose) that it's no wonder it becomes convoluted in a hurry.

We didn't start out with 12 man coordinated groups, exacting positions, and sets that syngerize with every aspect of everyone's build.

Those things take time. Considerable time. Time most starting players cannot afford if they wish to do anything beyond faceroll normal (which is a huge part of the problem).

When's the last time one of your characters got their ass handed to them doing a main line quest?

Base game teaches you next to nothing, and requires next to nothing. Then you roll over Vet and you're suddenly supposed to know every aspect and how it interacts?

I don't think so.

There is a lot of grey area between "I started yesterday" and Alcast/Gilliam, etc levels of understanding.

OP's not asking someone to fully tell her how to play the game. OP's asking for a bit more insight than a cookie cutter build will generally supply, and IMO, that's far from unreasonable.

Azuramoonstar

SilverIce58 wrote: »

My question is: is this your first MMO? (I'm not trying to be snarky or shady or what have you, it'd make it easier to understand where you're coming from if that question is answered.) If it is, then it's understandable. When you first start playing MMOs, you get all sorts of these things and mechanics that you've never seen before (mainly because single player games don't have them), and it's very, very easy to become confused and disorientated.

i'm not new to MMO but eso does the MMO genre different. MMo no longer are about making builds.

This game plays more like dungeons and dragons in a lot of aspects, which even to vet mmo players looks daunting.

I tried this game out just before morrowind launch but got flustered quick at the weird class/race/stat system. And the level up and attribute and skill points.

I recently came back, and still really unsure what I'm doing. I'm having fun though. I am playing a khajiit warden, with a destruction ice staff main weapon, and restoration staff sub weapon. Putting my points into health and magic.

I have 1 bar for tanking, 1 bar for healing. I'm leveling all 3 of my class trees, heavy armor, restoration staff and destruction staff skills. I like some of the new changes, like the level up rewards. The lil tips. Game can be a lil but better with tool tips.

NordSwordnBoard

@Violynne have you tried normal maelstrom arena? It's very forgiving with mechanics, but still helps you learn to anticipate red circles and learn to be self sufficient to a degree. It hardly compares to the veteran version, (which is another issue altogether) but you face a whole different array of attacks and effects placed on you for practice.

Icy_Waffles

Have not ever been in that boat.

Things are easily explained.

This may be the type of game that you are not understanding, which is OKAY.

You have to look at basics of what you want to accomplish and go from there.

I suggest instead of build videos some general informational ones about eso.

Violynne

Nestor wrote: »

Notice I did not say Build, your Rotation is 90% of the equation, as Deltia kind of explains.

This is why the post exists. Understanding what to put in a rotation is where I lack experience and knowledge.

That video from Deltia was a great start, and I'll take this foundation to look into my current skills, unlock a couple I never bothered with he mentioned, and try them out.

You need some decent Self Heals though, and the Trash Mobs are going to give you more issues than the Bosses are. Bosses can be kited and you can move around to avoid most attacks. It's going to be a challenge the first few times through, just so you know.

I have Vigor.

But I also know Vigor isn't enough.

I chose Umbral Assassin as my skill, and working from there. I may change this to Deathweaver, which has self heal morph recommendations.

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

@Violynne have you tried normal maelstrom arena? It's very forgiving with mechanics, but still helps you learn to anticipate red circles and learn to be self sufficient to a degree. It hardly compares to the veteran version, (which is another issue altogether) but you face a whole different array of attacks and effects placed on you for practice.

The only dungeon I've ever been in is Dragonstar Arena.

My only free time will be the weekend, but I must first unlock more skills. This is my priority.

What I don't want to do is find myself having to respec every single time a skill is unlocked, and the morph I chose was not a best choice for the rotation.

That's the point of this thread: to learn why some skills are better than others, especially morphs, and how they work best together in a rotation.

plutosshadow

zaria wrote: »

N2woR wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

i don't believe this thread.

i learned combat in this game by figuring out how to beat doshia (before the nerf). this was just after launch. figured out how to weave and kite, keep moving and keep your resources up.

again for the people here this was back just after launch.

you really need someone to tell you how to play a game?

We had time to learn back then, everyone was new. Today there’s no such chance for the Op or new players to learn, most want them booted out of dungeons the second they see their cp or lack of. We grow with the game, working out weaving, sets etc along the way, content creators put all that was learnt out there for others to catch up on because learning outside the game is the only way new players will learn these days.... sad but true

More an issue that you queue for random dungeon as low level character and get grouped with one cp400 doing random normal, one cp720 who farm the weapon and an cp200 needing quest. yes it was an fast run but you did not learn anything.

I definitely had this experience. Even though I joined with some other friends who were new, because of timezone differences we didn't get to play together much so dungeons were PUG or nothing during the week, and dungeons became largely either "run after all the people who know just what they are doing and learn nothing" or just dread. All the guides I could find by googling just... weren't that clear, not sure if I was just not finding the good ones or what. (I prefer written guides...) I'm still actually afraid to let my CP get too high until I properly learn every dungeon's mechanics for fear of being that max-CP character who knows nothing, but there are still dungeons that I'm rather clueless on, usually because I've barely had the chance to do them. (I came from a game where there were first 8 then 10.5 dungeons - the amount ESO has is mindblowing to me ha ha.) I actually *enjoyed* vet Maelstrom because I could kind of clumsily and slowly learn the mechanics and work things out for myself while not burdening others, haha.

I do think since weaving is actually more or less required for decent DPS in this game, some kind of clue about it in game would be really nice. I had no idea. I came from a game where it was builder-consumer, it didn't even have an auto/light attack, so it wasn't very natural for me to think about the light attack (I mostly ignored it until I ran out of skill resources at first). And I'm still not sure if I'm doing it right, pretty sure I'm not since 50% of the time it doesn't even seem like my light attack goes off.

Also yeah - the ease of overland content doesn't help things much. I can just spam whatever while questing. But I do think that happens in many games...

notimetocare

Violynne wrote: »

I've played this game off and on for the last 4 years, and I'm not ashamed to admit I still don't understand it. Rather, I'm angry because I don't. As much as I see people try to offer help, most of it is wasted on me (and others who are in the same boat).

Analogy: If I give you a list of ingredients to a recipe, what good are they if we don't get what we're supposed to do with them.

But this goes even further: why are you choosing those ingredients!

All I see online are builds, but no information on how to use those builds. It gets worse when trying to learn from the game, which is so poorly lacking in information, it turns into a difficulty.

Let me show you what I mean:
I have a weapon with a fire enchantment. It does "X" damage. Great. But, we all know this damage isn't applied with every hit. What's missing? Two critical pieces of information - 1) Does it hit every time the cool down is over or is it a percentage chance to be applied and 2) What's the gorram cool down?!

Now, let's say I find some gear that says "Applies 150% weapon enchant and lowers the cool down by 50%". Okay... how in the world does this help me when I don't even know what the basic weapons does!

I'm not looking to be BiS or max DPS. I just want to understand how to utilize my skills better so I'm not button mashing all the damn time.

In every video, I see solo players taking on world/dungeon bosses, and most start off with buffing themselves (with what, I have no clue, but I'll get there). Then they attack these things and barely drop an ounce of health.

When I'm looking at basic sets I can craft, I'm trying to learn what perks I can use. Then I see a video like this:
Top 10 Worst Sets and this got me to thinking how in the world anyone knows this stuff. Thank goodness I'm not wearing any of these sets, but can you imagine people out there are and have no clue?

Is it just me or does the game require more information? I see the Skill Advisor has been added, and it's a great start, but what good is it when it doesn't say why these are recommended skills.

So, tl;dr (sorry about that), have any of you seasoned players videos the rest of us can watch where you clearly explain why you chose the skills and how they work?

I can't watch another build video. It's a recipe I can't cook without burning it.

Thanks!

Theorycrafters spend time researching because they enjoy it. Most games leave tons of room for these people. Use them as a resource. That is part of L2P in every game

Riptide

This game caters to the elitist and people who spend 8+ hours a day playing and figuring everything out to the 10th decimal place, never mind it’s the casual gamer who really supports this game financially.

Please. I work a demanding full time job and have an active and time consuming public life. ESO is a hobby, not anything like an all day every day thing.

90% of this game you can heavy attack your way through.

The rest you have to practice.

I also play a bit of guitar, and that takes FAR more time and physical effort than getting down a solid rotation.

And thats how people need to look at endgame dps etc. Get a target dummy and practice. Experiment. Read. Practice.

Do not undervalue that that practice can make a big difference, its what gives you a goal and makes the game different. Embrace it if you want that 10%.

Or blow it off and enjoy the rest of the game. Noone is judging you, you’re value isn’t measured by your dps numbers, you are not your effing khakis.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

lassitershawn wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Combat in general in this game is counter-intuitive if you've played other MMOs or even rpgs in general. I love this game for a number of reasons, but the combat is a huge point of frustration for me.

In summary, there are 3 reasons why "L2P" is so difficult for new players, and why there is a such a huge dps disparity between new players and the "pros".

1) The rigid, new player-unfriendly UI. Bar swapping is an admittedly creative way to add pointless complexity to combat, and fixing the cursor means that any of us who prefer clicking our abilities are SOL. ESO's UI is "adapt or die", and those who are unwilling to change their entire playstyle that they've built over years of MMOs and RPGs will fall behind.

2) The lack of a real global cooldown and the bizarre embracing of a broken, exploitable system in the name of making things "more fast paced". Having light attacks and heavy attacks being additional elements to combat is a cool idea, but it just makes things too complicated in practice. Those who can integrate it into their rotation and clip animations flourish, and those who cannot suffer. It is the single greatest reason behind the dps disparity we see today.

3) Very short durations on pretty much everything, which serve to make rotations more punishing and necessitate even more bar-swapping. Between both MMOs I used to play, there were maybe 5 DoTs that had 10s or shorter durations. Most have 15 or even 20-30s. 8-10s DoTs and 20s self buffs make rotations brutal, which is only exacerbated by the bar swapping nonsense.

Again, there is a lot I love about ESO, but they decided to "go their own way" when it came to combat and wound up with a system that you have to rebuild yourself from the ground up to learn, and even then you might not be very good at it.

By "clicking our abilities" do you mean scrolling over with the cursor and clicking them? So if I want to cast LL followed by a Mages' Wrath I have to manually move to and then click on each one (and target LL as well)? That seems like it would serve no purpose other than making combat ridiculously slow paced.

It seems like all of your suggestions are designed to slow down the pace of the game, which I definitely do not agree with. Fast paced combat that requires paying attention to multiple things at once is one of my favorite parts of this game.

Here's the problem. Your "fast paced combat" is pretty much directly opposed to every other Western MMO on the market that has some semblance of flow and GCD to it. Dpsing in this game looks like "artistic" (read between the lines there) spazzing compared to them. The whole point of a GCD is to prevent crazy / janky motions like you see in this game, and give the player a second (literally) to process their next action.

"Fast paced combat" is what is causing the best players to do 40k dps and the worst to do 5k. There are other reasons, but this is the main one. If there were a GCD, one ability bar, and longer DoTs, you'd see that 5k jump to 15k and the 40k drop to 30k.

"Fast paced combat" isn't worth all the trouble it causes. WoW understood that. Rift understood that. Guild Wars understood that (I think? I didn't play it for very long but I think it had a gcd). ESO wasn't designed by anyone knowledgeable about the genre, which is why we have oddities like weaving and light / heavy attacks on top of abilities to begin with.

I guess the bottom line is that what you and the "elite" players want, isn't good for the game as a whole. It contributes to the huge disparity that causes new players to get kicked out of dungeons and belittled wherever they go.

lassitershawn

Riptide wrote: »

This game caters to the elitist and people who spend 8+ hours a day playing and figuring everything out to the 10th decimal place, never mind it’s the casual gamer who really supports this game financially.

Please. I work a demanding full time job and have an active and time consuming public life. ESO is a hobby, not anything like an all day every day thing.

90% of this game you can heavy attack your way through.

The rest you have to practice.

I also play a bit of guitar, and that takes FAR more time and physical effort than getting down a solid rotation.

And thats how people need to look at endgame dps etc. Get a target dummy and practice. Experiment. Read. Practice.

Do not undervalue that that practice can make a big difference, its what gives you a goal and makes the game different. Embrace it if you want that 10%.

Or blow it off and enjoy the rest of the game. Noone is judging you, you’re value isn’t measured by your dps numbers, you are not your effing khakis.

And even better join a couple raid guilds once you meet their minimum qualifications for DPS/heal/tank/whatever and practice your role constantly there. Faaaar too many DPS who can parse on a dummy but drop dead when faced with a red circle or a basic mechanic.

Also, you don't have to figure everything out to the "10th decimal place." Other people have done this already and made your life easy. When I was learning what to do I just found the best player I could and learned from them. Kept doing that as each better player came along and it works out pretty well. Most players are extremely helpful and willing to share knowledge if you ask.

Anotherone773

@Violynne You do not need a complex rotation to do good dps. In fact, adding more complication to a rotation can actually lower your dps. Sometimes complication is a bad thing and doesnt work for everything. I also dont believe in the whole "i must achieve x dps, so i am not carried". That carried nonsense is just something elitist use to make themselves feel superior to others.

As far as your " problems". Have you parsed a dummy? Do you know what you DPS is? The dummy is important when it comes to instance bosses because of resistances. Combatmetrics addon would help you with information about uptimes, damage, recovery rate, etc, unfortunately you are not on PC. But if you parse a dummy it will post your dps in your chat after the combat ends. A 3 million hp dummy parse is fine. You will want to do it several time( at least 3 or 4 minimum) to get a good idea of the average DPS you do because DPS isnt always consistent. You may have a high crit rate this time and next time it be really crappy and the next time it between them. So you want to do several and average them them out.

Why your builds creator picks one mundus over another is because after what was likely hours of testing, they decided that the mundus they tested gives better benefits. So they went with whatever gives more consistent dps or better dps over many parses.

How much crit chance do you have with and without the thief? Lets say you have 90% with and 80% without( just tossing numbers here). So, in theory, 9 out of 10 hits will crits with the thief, and 8 out of 10 will be crits without the thief. Weapons damage ( warrior mundus) gives constant dps. It increases both your crits and non crit damage.

Crit damage does 50% more damage. So lets say you do 1k damage per hit. In ten hit, with 90% crit, you do 9x 1.5k and 1 x1k for a total of 14.5k damage.

The warrior increase with all divines and golded weapon damage by 363. Weapon damage acts as a multiplier and a consistent one. The thief increases crit chance by 10.67% with all divines and golded. So to switch the warrior we remove that bonus. We will go an even 10%. So now crit chance is 80%

Lets say the warrior adds 350 damage( i like round numbers) to our attacks so now we do 1350 damage with an 80% crit. So you have 2 attacks @ 1350 damage and 8 attacks @ 2025 damage(150% of 1350) for a total of 18900 damage in 10 attacks.

Compare this to the 14.5k with the thief and you have about 30% increase in DPS in our example. This is why you go warrior.

Personally, i think crit builds are good for PVP but not very good for PVE. Or i should say there are far better stats to max in PVE than crit.


Weapon Enchantments. First poisons are preferred for harder content and PVP because of triple stats on them and they can be switched in and out easily.

Normal enchantments( those done with runes) have a 100% change to fire every 4 or 5 seconds( 4 seconds for damage 5 seconds for buffs). You can see this when you do light attacks. For example i have befoul on my bow. When the enchant is about to proc it will have a little "smog" looking cloud around it showing me the befoul enchant is going to fire. If i count seconds until i see this cloud again it appears between 4 and 5 seconds.

Infused increases the "damage" of your enchantment by X percent and reduces the cooldown by Y%. So if you have 20% increase and 50% cooldown reduction on a befoul that does 2400 damage then instead of doing 2400 damage every 4 seconds (600 DPS) you do 2880 damage every 2 seconds( 1440 dps)

Does that help any?

lassitershawn

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Combat in general in this game is counter-intuitive if you've played other MMOs or even rpgs in general. I love this game for a number of reasons, but the combat is a huge point of frustration for me.

In summary, there are 3 reasons why "L2P" is so difficult for new players, and why there is a such a huge dps disparity between new players and the "pros".

1) The rigid, new player-unfriendly UI. Bar swapping is an admittedly creative way to add pointless complexity to combat, and fixing the cursor means that any of us who prefer clicking our abilities are SOL. ESO's UI is "adapt or die", and those who are unwilling to change their entire playstyle that they've built over years of MMOs and RPGs will fall behind.

2) The lack of a real global cooldown and the bizarre embracing of a broken, exploitable system in the name of making things "more fast paced". Having light attacks and heavy attacks being additional elements to combat is a cool idea, but it just makes things too complicated in practice. Those who can integrate it into their rotation and clip animations flourish, and those who cannot suffer. It is the single greatest reason behind the dps disparity we see today.

3) Very short durations on pretty much everything, which serve to make rotations more punishing and necessitate even more bar-swapping. Between both MMOs I used to play, there were maybe 5 DoTs that had 10s or shorter durations. Most have 15 or even 20-30s. 8-10s DoTs and 20s self buffs make rotations brutal, which is only exacerbated by the bar swapping nonsense.

Again, there is a lot I love about ESO, but they decided to "go their own way" when it came to combat and wound up with a system that you have to rebuild yourself from the ground up to learn, and even then you might not be very good at it.

By "clicking our abilities" do you mean scrolling over with the cursor and clicking them? So if I want to cast LL followed by a Mages' Wrath I have to manually move to and then click on each one (and target LL as well)? That seems like it would serve no purpose other than making combat ridiculously slow paced.

It seems like all of your suggestions are designed to slow down the pace of the game, which I definitely do not agree with. Fast paced combat that requires paying attention to multiple things at once is one of my favorite parts of this game.

Here's the problem. Your "fast paced combat" is pretty much directly opposed to every other Western MMO on the market that has some semblance of flow and GCD to it. Dpsing in this game looks like "artistic" (read between the lines there) spazzing compared to them. The whole point of a GCD is to prevent crazy / janky motions like you see in this game, and give the player a second (literally) to process their next action.

"Fast paced combat" is what is causing the best players to do 40k dps and the worst to do 5k. There are other reasons, but this is the main one. If there were a GCD, one ability bar, and longer DoTs, you'd see that 5k jump to 15k and the 40k drop to 30k.

"Fast paced combat" isn't worth all the trouble it causes. WoW understood that. Rift understood that. Guild Wars understood that (I think? I didn't play it for very long but I think it had a gcd). ESO wasn't designed by anyone knowledgeable about the genre, which is why we have oddities like weaving and light / heavy attacks on top of abilities to begin with.

I guess the bottom line is that what you and the "elite" players want, isn't good for the game as a whole. It contributes to the huge disparity that causes new players to get kicked out of dungeons and belittled wherever they go.

1. As far as I can tell this game is the best MMO on the market.

2. Maybe I'm alone in this but weaving doesn't look too bad to me, at least with staves. I actually like tossing out another fireball between attacks. The exception is bar swap canceling but as long as bars exist this is unfortunately necessary because otherwise you can be stuck in a long-ass animation like blockade when you badly need to bar swap and shield. If animations are the issue they could work on animation transitions and still keep combat fast-paced.

3. Nobody starts out doing 40k DPS. I'm not sure what the aversion of so many players is to seeking out help but almost all good players will be helpful if you ask for it. Asking for help isn't frowned upon at all and shows that you are interested in improving, not a carry. Most people are more than happy to share their knowledge, teach rotations, teach mechanics, teach weaving, etc. There are even guilds dedicated to this.

Fleshreaper

I see that most people are just telling you, if you are at point A you have to get to point D. But you already know that and if you knew how to get to point D, you wouldn't be asking. I'll try to explain the best I can.

Take Searing Strike from Dragon Knight skill line for example. Slash and enemy with flame, dealing 410 Flame Damage and an additional 1080 Flame Damage over 8.5 second.

First morph, Venomous Claw - Rake an enemy with your claw, dealing 414 Poison Damage and an additional 1100 Poison Damage over 8.5 seconds. The poison seeps into the target and deals increased damage the longer it lasts, dealing 9% more damage for every 2 seconds.

(Going to have to use some math here)

So, 414 is base damage from the skill. 414 + 1100 poison over 8.5 seconds. So, after 8.5 seconds, the damage will be 1514.
First we need to figure out the Damage per second. 1100 divided by 8.5 is 129.4
1)Now, we need to apply the multiplier. 9% more every 2 seconds. 129.4 X 2 = 258.8 (258.8 X .09 (9%) = 23.29 - 258.8 + 23.29 = 282.09
2)So, now our new base damage number is 282.09 every 2 seconds. 282.09 X .09 = 25.38 - 282.09 + 25.38 = 307.47
3)307.47 X .09 = 27.67 - 307.47 + 27.67 = 335.14
4)335.14 X .09 = 30.16 - 335.14 + 30.16 = 365.3
5) .5 second. So, divide 365.3 by 4 because there are 4 half seconds in 2 seconds. 91.32
91.32 X .09 = 8.21 - 91.32 + 8.21 = 99.53
Add up all the ticks. 282.09 + 307.47 + 335.14 + 365.3 + 99.53 = 1398.53
1398.53 + 414 = 1803.53 After about 9 second, this is the damage Venomous Claw will do. Or 200.39 Damage per Second.

This is base skill damage, it does not include gear/attributes/Champion Points factors or other factors. Check out
https://tamrielfoundry.com/articles/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/

Or search for How damage is calculated in ESO.

Anotherone773

Violynne wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

World bosses aren't supposed to be soloed.

They used to be.

But yes, I do know they're supposed to be group events, but...

Don't take a failure at a world boss as an indicator of your own strength or lack thereof.

... I don't do this. I use a couple of world bosses to test what I've learned. I don't expect to beat them. I use them to measure my own strengths and weaknesses (I learned how to dodge roll with them).

The bosses I go up against aren't very strong and have limited attacks. Better than a static dummy (which I don't have), because they fight back.

Do dungeons. If possible with people of your level and skill, and learn together. Start with normal dungeons (but most of them will be too easy to learn anything) then go on with vet dungeons. Some are far easier than others - noticeably the Maj-Al-Ragath dungeons, such as Spindleclutch and Banished Cells. And go from there.

This is what I'm working toward.

My stamBlade is CP510 right now, but this is only because she hit level 50 about 3 weeks ago. Still trying to level up some skills.

Soloing group dungeons is not bad either. The "bosses" in there are all soloable - albeit sometimes a little bit tough.

Interesting. I didn't think group dungeons were solo possible. I just assumed these required 16 persons or so. Any particular dungeons I should try?

Public dungeons are too easy. This would be another great tool to measure improvements.

Personally i would work on Maelstrom Arena. That is meant to be soloed. Has normal and vet mode and is a good test of your abilities. In fact, ive seen many people here on the forums say they learned so much about how to play their characters by attempting to complete MA though it was very frustrating at times.

I think it is a great in that regard. It is sort of like a "college exam" before you start your career as a vet player.

JKorr

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

My question is: is this your first MMO? (I'm not trying to be snarky or shady or what have you, it'd make it easier to understand where you're coming from if that question is answered.) If it is, then it's understandable. When you first start playing MMOs, you get all sorts of these things and mechanics that you've never seen before (mainly because single player games don't have them), and it's very, very easy to become confused and disorientated.

i'm not new to MMO but eso does the MMO genre different. MMo no longer are about making builds.

This game plays more like dungeons and dragons in a lot of aspects, which even to vet mmo players looks daunting.

I tried this game out just before morrowind launch but got flustered quick at the weird class/race/stat system. And the level up and attribute and skill points.

I recently came back, and still really unsure what I'm doing. I'm having fun though. I am playing a khajiit warden, with a destruction ice staff main weapon, and restoration staff sub weapon. Putting my points into health and magic.

I have 1 bar for tanking, 1 bar for healing. I'm leveling all 3 of my class trees, heavy armor, restoration staff and destruction staff skills. I like some of the new changes, like the level up rewards. The lil tips. Game can be a lil but better with tool tips.

The original game started out as one type of thing, simply a fighting game. The title for that game was about the only thing that survived the changes that happened: Arena. Apparently the devs did play d&d style games....

Arena started, as the name might suggest, as a medieval-style gladiator game. You had a team of fighters and went around the world fighting other teams in each city's arena until you became grand champion in the Imperial City.
The world used for Arena was Tamriel, the fantasy world created by a few members of the staff for use in their weekly D&D campaign. During development of Arena, more and more RPG elements were added -- what if you could walk around these cities? What if you could take your team into a dungeon? And soon it was clear what Arena needed to be -- a full-blown RPG.
Inspired by such games as Ultima Underworld and the unheralded Legends of Valour, Arena was now seen as a massive first-person RPG -- the game that recreated the pen-and-paper RPG experience -- be who you want and do what you want. For a long time Arena was a party-based game, where you lead a group of adventurers. This style of play proved less fun in first person, so Arena became a single character game.

Arena was to be the first chapter in an ongoing series of games, so the series took its name from Tamriel's mystical tomes of knowledge that told of its past, present, and future -- The Elder Scrolls.

Original concept of Arena: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/go-blades