This game makes "L2P" difficult.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

how did we ever manage back at the start?

We died a lot LOL We just figured it out over the course of time.

Marginis

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

how did we ever manage back at the start?

We died a lot LOL We just figured it out over the course of time.

It also wasn't as harsh an environment for players who weren't exactly sure what they were doing back then. Nowadays there are far too many toxic players who will seek to destroy your self confidence at the slightest hint of "Nord" and "healer" in the same breath.

jedtb16_ESO

ArchMikem wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

This one of those games where almost everything is easy, once you know how.

That's a very important part of your statement. The game can become easy, but it's not inherently easy.

for me that is the great pleasure in picking up a new game.... finding out how things work.

jedtb16_ESO

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

how did we ever manage back at the start?

We died a lot LOL We just figured it out over the course of time.

yup... that's how i figured doshia. trying/dying... leave think about it rinse and repeat. what are those glowing balls... when they hit her she regens..... hmm, need a ranged weapon. but at lvl 8 or 9 only 1 bar so that's not really an option. perhaps if i level up a bit. did some dolmens the realised that i could get a ranged weapon from the fighters guild line. these glyph things...what can i do with them? ..... and so on, an iterative process called learning to play.

DoctorESO

lassitershawn wrote: »

Nobody starts out doing 40k DPS.

I beg to differ. Have you ever killed a rat in one shot?

AlnilamE

Violynne wrote: »

I have an update.

I bought a target skeleton and attacked it how I am playing (button mashing).

My average dps: 7.2k between two sessions. One session was a full stamina bar (38k) and the other was with 36k (food timer expired). I just wanted to see the difference. Took about 7 minutes to finish it off.

What appeared as good damage can hardly qualify as damage.

I was also equally surprised to see my HAs were delivering 7k crit damage (3.5k per weapon) rounded up.

My strongest hits came from Surprise Attack, at 10k+ per hit, all crits. I hit the thing 10 times in a row, and every one was a crit. Interesting. Never noticed this before. Not sure if this was in conjunction with other attacks, but interesting indeed.

I also noticed something peculiar about my button mashing. I'm repeatedly pushing the same button (rapid strikes). I know this is a typical spam spell, but I never realized how much I'm actually pressing it.

Good test, this was. Clearly shows my weaknesses.

Okay, time for some goals:
1) level more skills
2) Work on 10k. Baby steps.
3) Learn to control
4) Bash, damn it. Not block.
5) Learn to work spells/hits together

This will take a couple of weeks. Most of my NB skills are locked because I ignored them.

Time to get busy.

That's some very good self-analysis. You are going places for sure.

(Now I need to work on the same. :-))

DanteYoda

ArcVelarian wrote: »

I will say there needs to be an in-game tutorial on "weaving". It's a little silly to make it a core aspect of DPS and yet have no real mention of it anywhere in the game itself.

I cannot do weaving for the life of me, i've tried for hours.. my brain cannot seem to use a light attack between a skill for anything.. i just cannot multitask that in at all.. and then they want us to flip my hotbars as well ....


No *** way can i do all that at once.. i guess dungeons will never be open to me.

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

i don't believe this thread.

i learned combat in this game by figuring out how to beat doshia (before the nerf). this was just after launch. figured out how to weave and kite, keep moving and keep your resources up.

again for the people here this was back just after launch.

you really need someone to tell you how to play a game?

I gave up at release.. between doshia, norian, bots everywhere and maintenance in my primetimes i gave up.. those bosses were too hard for me.. I died till my gears and weapons were all broken no soul stones left.. it was just too hard.

ZeroXFF

Violynne wrote: »

I have an update.

I bought a target skeleton and attacked it how I am playing (button mashing).

My average dps: 7.2k between two sessions. One session was a full stamina bar (38k) and the other was with 36k (food timer expired). I just wanted to see the difference. Took about 7 minutes to finish it off.

What appeared as good damage can hardly qualify as damage.

I was also equally surprised to see my HAs were delivering 7k crit damage (3.5k per weapon) rounded up.

My strongest hits came from Surprise Attack, at 10k+ per hit, all crits. I hit the thing 10 times in a row, and every one was a crit. Interesting. Never noticed this before. Not sure if this was in conjunction with other attacks, but interesting indeed.

I also noticed something peculiar about my button mashing. I'm repeatedly pushing the same button (rapid strikes). I know this is a typical spam spell, but I never realized how much I'm actually pressing it.

Good test, this was. Clearly shows my weaknesses.

Okay, time for some goals:
1) level more skills
2) Work on 10k. Baby steps.
3) Learn to control
4) Bash, damn it. Not block.
5) Learn to work spells/hits together

This will take a couple of weeks. Most of my NB skills are locked because I ignored them.

Time to get busy.

Here is one piece of advice that you can apply right away:
If you use Surprise Attack, remove Rapid Strikes from your bar (or vice versa).

Why?
They fulfill the same role in a rotation (spammable). You don't need both. Surprise Attack also applies an important debuff and is cheaper, so I would recommend sticking with Surprise Attack for now.

Fill the free slot with one more DoT. If you aren't using them yet, Caltrops (alliance war skill) and Rending Slashes (dual wield) are good options.

Vhozek

So this is why there's level scaling.

Runefang

Personally I'd ignore people who say you should come up with your own build. They probably take 25-30 minutes to finish vet Fungal Grotto 1. If you're ok with having a low bar, cool, otherwise a good meta build is a great starting point.

Get the meta gear, meta skills and meta rotation. Then practice the hell outta it. Once you can pull similar numbers feel free to experiment. Aside from vma, vdsa and vAS HM items everything else is really easy to obtain.

Somebody said it best that master know the why, amateurs know the what. Be an amateur first, copy the 'what' of somebody better.

Kalgert

Violynne wrote: »

I have an update.

I bought a target skeleton and attacked it how I am playing (button mashing).

My average dps: 7.2k between two sessions. One session was a full stamina bar (38k) and the other was with 36k (food timer expired). I just wanted to see the difference. Took about 7 minutes to finish it off.

What appeared as good damage can hardly qualify as damage.

I was also equally surprised to see my HAs were delivering 7k crit damage (3.5k per weapon) rounded up.

My strongest hits came from Surprise Attack, at 10k+ per hit, all crits. I hit the thing 10 times in a row, and every one was a crit. Interesting. Never noticed this before. Not sure if this was in conjunction with other attacks, but interesting indeed.

I also noticed something peculiar about my button mashing. I'm repeatedly pushing the same button (rapid strikes). I know this is a typical spam spell, but I never realized how much I'm actually pressing it.

Good test, this was. Clearly shows my weaknesses.

Okay, time for some goals:
1) level more skills
2) Work on 10k. Baby steps.
3) Learn to control
4) Bash, damn it. Not block.
5) Learn to work spells/hits together

This will take a couple of weeks. Most of my NB skills are locked because I ignored them.

Time to get busy.

Where can I get a target skeleton? Might want to have one at home, so me and my girlfriend can dance with and possibly punch as well.

Sparr0w

Watch @Gilliamtherogue 's video's on youtube, range between 30 minutes & 4 hours Learnt a lot from this guy.

Hint: actually listen to his rambling, where the informative stuff is

EDIT: Also @Kevduit also releases some nice light hearted content

Sparr0w

Kalgert wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I have an update.

I bought a target skeleton and attacked it how I am playing (button mashing).

My average dps: 7.2k between two sessions. One session was a full stamina bar (38k) and the other was with 36k (food timer expired). I just wanted to see the difference. Took about 7 minutes to finish it off.

What appeared as good damage can hardly qualify as damage.

I was also equally surprised to see my HAs were delivering 7k crit damage (3.5k per weapon) rounded up.

My strongest hits came from Surprise Attack, at 10k+ per hit, all crits. I hit the thing 10 times in a row, and every one was a crit. Interesting. Never noticed this before. Not sure if this was in conjunction with other attacks, but interesting indeed.

I also noticed something peculiar about my button mashing. I'm repeatedly pushing the same button (rapid strikes). I know this is a typical spam spell, but I never realized how much I'm actually pressing it.

Good test, this was. Clearly shows my weaknesses.

Okay, time for some goals:
1) level more skills
2) Work on 10k. Baby steps.
3) Learn to control
4) Bash, damn it. Not block.
5) Learn to work spells/hits together

This will take a couple of weeks. Most of my NB skills are locked because I ignored them.

Time to get busy.

Where can I get a target skeleton? Might want to have one at home, so me and my girlfriend can dance with and possibly punch as well.

You can either do the CWC precurser quest thingy for a 300k health one, do writs to buy one from the writ merchant, or buy one from a guild store for 60k~

Kalgert

Sparr0w wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I have an update.

I bought a target skeleton and attacked it how I am playing (button mashing).

My average dps: 7.2k between two sessions. One session was a full stamina bar (38k) and the other was with 36k (food timer expired). I just wanted to see the difference. Took about 7 minutes to finish it off.

What appeared as good damage can hardly qualify as damage.

I was also equally surprised to see my HAs were delivering 7k crit damage (3.5k per weapon) rounded up.

My strongest hits came from Surprise Attack, at 10k+ per hit, all crits. I hit the thing 10 times in a row, and every one was a crit. Interesting. Never noticed this before. Not sure if this was in conjunction with other attacks, but interesting indeed.

I also noticed something peculiar about my button mashing. I'm repeatedly pushing the same button (rapid strikes). I know this is a typical spam spell, but I never realized how much I'm actually pressing it.

Good test, this was. Clearly shows my weaknesses.

Okay, time for some goals:
1) level more skills
2) Work on 10k. Baby steps.
3) Learn to control
4) Bash, damn it. Not block.
5) Learn to work spells/hits together

This will take a couple of weeks. Most of my NB skills are locked because I ignored them.

Time to get busy.

Where can I get a target skeleton? Might want to have one at home, so me and my girlfriend can dance with and possibly punch as well.

You can either do the CWC precurser quest thingy for a 300k health one, do writs to buy one from the writ merchant, or buy one from a guild store for 60k~

Ah, so there are a few options. Alright, thanks for letting me know.

Merlin13KAGL

AlnilamE wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

what i hate the most is that i still don't understand which spells are dots or which are direct damage. The game is bugged in this part, for as information, damage color, procs, and champion points don't match up with the spells.

other things also are about information, like how spells scale and with what. And what actually weapon damage do for example, etc.

Deals X amount of damage over Y time = DoT as a rule of thumb. Some channels are a bit weird, so you may have to test.

OP, If you are having trouble healing yourself with just Vigor, may I suggest trying out Mark Target/Reaper's Mark? It debuffs the target and heals you when they die. It's a good option to have in places like Maelstrom that have a lot of trash mobs. And Reaper's Mark gives you Major Berserk for 5 seconds when you kill the target, which increases your damage.

@Sergykid @AlnilamE this, as opposed to some skills that do X damage every Y time.

Those are the ones that intuitively 'look' like a DoT, but are in fact, multiple hits of direct damage for a set duration.

Once you learn how to translate ZoS tooltip-speak, some of the things become a little clearer, though you shouldn't have to decode anything in the first place. (This is a failing of the game, not of the players)

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

I will say there needs to be an in-game tutorial on "weaving". It's a little silly to make it a core aspect of DPS and yet have no real mention of it anywhere in the game itself.

It is actually spelled out in the level up adviser. A practical tutorial would be nice, but it is certainly mentioned in game.

True, it is mentioned, but the tutorial would still be helpful for most.

The SA tooltip won't explain why LA's get cutoff sometimes or appear not if someone's weaving too fast, as the animation appears to be there, but the damage is not.

Slowing down a rotation to get higher DPS while weaving can be one of the most counterintuitive things in the game.

An experienced player can help identify this, and it would be a trivial task to have the in game engine parse the parse to give additional advice as to how an individual player might adjust for more DPS.

Azuramoonstar

Runefang wrote: »

Personally I'd ignore people who say you should come up with your own build. They probably take 25-30 minutes to finish vet Fungal Grotto 1. If you're ok with having a low bar, cool, otherwise a good meta build is a great starting point.

Get the meta gear, meta skills and meta rotation. Then practice the hell outta it. Once you can pull similar numbers feel free to experiment. Aside from vma, vdsa and vAS HM items everything else is really easy to obtain.

Somebody said it best that master know the why, amateurs know the what. Be an amateur first, copy the 'what' of somebody better.

meta isn't what wins content, good players and a good team wins content. Meta just a "instant win" button people overly rely on. Most real hardcore players will tell you the same thing.

in most if not all cases, the meta is just coping the "world first" crowd. Non-meta stuff can and does win content. Its bout the player and team.

gnarlyvandal

ArcVelarian wrote: »

I will say there needs to be an in-game tutorial on "weaving". It's a little silly to make it a core aspect of DPS and yet have no real mention of it anywhere in the game itself.

Seen it mentioned on a level up reward page as a tip, but only there.
The tutorial at the beginning of the game really needs to have more explanation around combat

MaleAmazon

For the OPs question, the main reason is poor explanations in the game. The devs have tried to address it, but the whole thing is a mess. I´ve tried to work out strategies the way I used to in strategy games, but I´ve become much more laid back since I realised that you just can´t count on stuff to work, or how it works if it does. Seriously, it is an utter mess and it is also hard to test unless you have PTS (and I dont want it).

I like this game but the mechanics are very opaque, probably the poorest tooltips I´ve seen in a major game in terms of usefulness.

For example, I´ve had templar jabs increase from thaumaturge (=DoT), however it triggers Selene (=melee direct damage). The very similar skill flurry does not trigger Selene afaik.

I am STILL not sure what actually counts as a DoT in this game (!). I used to test some stuff when sorc prison didnt break on DoTs, however I´ve seen skills I am pretty sure broke prison, frequently referred to as DoTs. Still not sure what CP affects them, though it´s no biggie for me personally since I spread CP out due to diminishing returns, unless I am doing a very specific build.

AFAIK "x damage over y seconds" and channels are DoTs, while "x damage every z seconds for y seconds" is not a DoT but repeated direct damage.

Which of course makes the warden skill description "... dealing 174 Frost Damage in the area every 1 second over 12 seconds" just mindboggling.

I have been guilty myself of this in the past, in my defense I am 99.9% sure I´ve seen weird things on tooltips when testing, like templar jabs increasing slightly from certain CP stars for a few points and then ceasing to increase, leading me to wrong conclusions.

When it comes to weaving, it has changed a bit I think. ATM I either do heavy attack weaves where I hold down the LMB all the time which according to damage numbers returned gives full damage for heavy attacks but makes them faster than spamming - or I do quick light attack weaves where you quickly tap LMB and immediately use a skill, resulting in a very fast LA (not sure it always counts, maybe I need some time with a target dummy). I can do bar swap sometimes as well but I doubt it really has any significant animation cancelling DPS effects for me.

I get info from various sources like 'eso mechanics for dummies', googling "eso skill coefficients" etc. Then I might test some stuff with foundry tactical combat. It at least leads in the right direction.

Anotherone773

Violynne wrote: »

I have an update.

I bought a target skeleton and attacked it how I am playing (button mashing).

My average dps: 7.2k between two sessions. One session was a full stamina bar (38k) and the other was with 36k (food timer expired). I just wanted to see the difference. Took about 7 minutes to finish it off.

What appeared as good damage can hardly qualify as damage.

I was also equally surprised to see my HAs were delivering 7k crit damage (3.5k per weapon) rounded up.

My strongest hits came from Surprise Attack, at 10k+ per hit, all crits. I hit the thing 10 times in a row, and every one was a crit. Interesting. Never noticed this before. Not sure if this was in conjunction with other attacks, but interesting indeed.

I also noticed something peculiar about my button mashing. I'm repeatedly pushing the same button (rapid strikes). I know this is a typical spam spell, but I never realized how much I'm actually pressing it.

Good test, this was. Clearly shows my weaknesses.

Okay, time for some goals:
1) level more skills
2) Work on 10k. Baby steps.
3) Learn to control
4) Bash, damn it. Not block.
5) Learn to work spells/hits together

This will take a couple of weeks. Most of my NB skills are locked because I ignored them.

Time to get busy.

A couple of things on this.

Since you can use combatmetrics you have to make sure you "finish" on the dummy ( do a complete parse until its dead). If you end combat prematurely it will still count dps until it ends combat so you have several seconds of no to little damage.

Second penetration is very important. You can add up your penetration by adding penetration gains from gear, CP, mundus, other sources together and add 100. 3 mil and 6 mil dummy have the same resistance as trial bosses, 33.3k. So if your penetration is only a few hundred or such then its resisting a big chunk of damage you are doing. Increasing penetration is like giving yourself a permanent damage buff.

Third, make sure you have your buff/debuff bar on ( mine is set to all times) both for you and target. This will really help you with watching your up times on everything. You want to make sure DoTs always stay active as well as debuffs and you want to keep your buffs active as much as possible.

Forth, while i dont believe in the "must have complex rotation" to do good damage, it is important that you have some sort of rotation rather than randomly/chaoticly mashing buttons. Remember to slow down, i know achieving good dps seems like a race against a clock, but its really not. Good DPS is achieved through a "relay race"

Violynne

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

Here is one piece of advice that you can apply right away:
If you use Surprise Attack, remove Rapid Strikes from your bar (or vice versa).

I'll keep this mind. They're both in my bar right now because I've not unlocked much.

I'll work on getting Caltrops once I go back into PvP.

DanteYoda wrote: »

I cannot do weaving for the life of me, i've tried for hours.. my brain cannot seem to use a light attack between a skill for anything.. i just cannot multitask that in at all.. and then they want us to flip my hotbars as well

I have to admit, this took me some time to get used to as well, and I still find myself slipping at times. It's just easier to spam spells, but after seeing with my own eyes the increased damage it produces, I need this to become second nature.

Those who can mix up three attacks in a "single pass" are impressive, and probably why they can hit 50k+ dps.

My goal isn't that high. I want 35k-40k, just to be more comfortable. 7k won't work at all.

Some really good advice showing up in this discussion.

Here's hoping ZoS read this and understands their in-game descriptions are severely lacking to help people play the game they created.

Kelces

That's why I never look at any builds, until something about those look familiar. You are right, it doesn't make any sense to look at certain builds, until you tried it yourself, people tend to be annoyingly general about the "how-to". It's lerarning by doing...

MaleAmazon

That's why I never look at any builds, until something about those look familiar. You are right, it doesn't make any sense to look at certain builds, until you tried it yourself, people tend to be annoyingly general about the "how-to". It's lerarning by doing...

This also has the beneficial side effect of giving you the knowledge of why stuff works, so you dont become totally lost every time the game is balance patched...


Also, the DPS people post are IMO doubtful at best. Theres a heck of a difference between the skills and the playstyle you have when playing versus mobs, PvE bosses and PvP... yeah I can nuke a trash pull for 100k DPS, but in PvP snipespamming is sometimes the best option for me, simply because of the range...

Anotherone773

Runefang wrote: »

Personally I'd ignore people who say you should come up with your own build. They probably take 25-30 minutes to finish vet Fungal Grotto 1. If you're ok with having a low bar, cool, otherwise a good meta build is a great starting point.

Get the meta gear, meta skills and meta rotation. Then practice the hell outta it. Once you can pull similar numbers feel free to experiment. Aside from vma, vdsa and vAS HM items everything else is really easy to obtain.

Somebody said it best that master know the why, amateurs know the what. Be an amateur first, copy the 'what' of somebody better.

While in theory that seems like a good idea. Meta builds is basically someone else doing it for you. Generally they are bad to copy because meta builds are set up for one playstyle( the creators) and created for a specific purpose within a specific set of conditions. Imitating another person is going to lead to poor experiences.

You need to know the how and the why. If you spend all your time focusing on copying someone else and do nothing but try to achieve whatever they achieved with the build, your not learning how and why. you are trying to learn to imitate their results.

On top of this using a set rotation for everything is just dumb. Combat is fluid unlike a target dummy. You need to know what skills to use in which situations in what order and that may change constantly in combat. So the meta build itself is not important. What is important, to take away from a meta build, is the how( are they achieving that) and the why( do they use those skills, gear, cp, rotations).

On a dummy, you can do the same rotation forever because nothing changes. Its like a boxer hitting a punching a bag and then getting in the ring and fighting another person. You dont throw punches like you were on the bag.

PVP is one of the best teachers of how to adapt to ever changing situations. People are inherently unpredictable, so if you can "gitgud" at reacting to the ever changing situation in pvp from an unpredictable opponent, then you can learn to play without meta and learn how to teach yourself the hows, whens, and whys.

Though pvp in this game would not be one of the best teachers as its zergfest and crowd control central.

Cpt_Teemo

More like "L2M"

Kelces

MaleAmazon wrote: »

That's why I never look at any builds, until something about those look familiar. You are right, it doesn't make any sense to look at certain builds, until you tried it yourself, people tend to be annoyingly general about the "how-to". It's lerarning by doing...

This also has the beneficial side effect of giving you the knowledge of why stuff works, so you dont become totally lost every time the game is balance patched...

That works better when asking someone in person, to know some details. Text only can be misinterpreted, because you can't ask them further questions.

Merlin13KAGL

MaleAmazon wrote: »

That's why I never look at any builds, until something about those look familiar. You are right, it doesn't make any sense to look at certain builds, until you tried it yourself, people tend to be annoyingly general about the "how-to". It's lerarning by doing...

This also has the beneficial side effect of giving you the knowledge of why stuff works, so you dont become totally lost every time the game is balance patched...

Yeah, you just end up being totally pissed off instead.

MaleAmazon

Though pvp in this game would not be one of the best teachers as its zergfest and crowd control central.

Yeah after PvPing a bit I´ve learned that PvP is all about switching between 2 modes: "Maximum damage burst for 5 seconds" and "Roll and run away as fast as you can".

Kelces

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Though pvp in this game would not be one of the best teachers as its zergfest and crowd control central.

Yeah after PvPing a bit I´ve learned that PvP is all about switching between 2 modes: "Maximum damage burst for 5 seconds" and "Roll and run away as fast as you can".

For so called "glass-canon" builds, that's certainly true.

Nestor

Violynne wrote: »

I have an update.

I bought a target skeleton and attacked it how I am playing (button mashing).

My average dps: 7.2k between two sessions. One session was a full stamina bar (38k) and the other was with 36k (food timer expired). I just wanted to see the difference. Took about 7 minutes to finish it off.

Do you notice any lag when using your target dummy? Let me explain what I mean. For some reason, when ever I use a Training Dummy on a couple of my characters, my game turns into a slideshow, almost like I am in PvP during a lag spike. So, my DPS numbers are 1/3 or 1/4 what I see from just normal Mob or Boss combat.

Anotherone773

Nestor wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I have an update.

I bought a target skeleton and attacked it how I am playing (button mashing).

My average dps: 7.2k between two sessions. One session was a full stamina bar (38k) and the other was with 36k (food timer expired). I just wanted to see the difference. Took about 7 minutes to finish it off.

Do you notice any lag when using your target dummy? Let me explain what I mean. For some reason, when ever I use a Training Dummy on a couple of my characters, my game turns into a slideshow, almost like I am in PvP during a lag spike. So, my DPS numbers are 1/3 or 1/4 what I see from just normal Mob or Boss combat.

Have you tried using a dummy in an empty house to reduce lag/fps drops? The less that it has to rendered the more resources can be dedicated to what your doing. I have better FPS with less lag in my house with a dummy than i do in the game world but the house is mostly empty at the moment. It may very well change when i add a couple of hundred items to it.