This game makes "L2P" difficult.

MaleAmazon

For so called "glass-canon" builds, that's certainly true.

Yup, admittedly I prefer soloing to playing in groups

'Viceglasscanon of venom...'

But I think it is true in general in PvP; when firing at people I find that I have maybe 5 seconds before they start to selfheal / roll / block. I switched out stuff that seemed useful damagewise simply because it was too much of a DoT over 10 seconds; people would roll back into their zerg and selfheal.

I imagine things would be very different in a 1v1 duel though.

AlnilamE

Nestor wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I have an update.

I bought a target skeleton and attacked it how I am playing (button mashing).

My average dps: 7.2k between two sessions. One session was a full stamina bar (38k) and the other was with 36k (food timer expired). I just wanted to see the difference. Took about 7 minutes to finish it off.

Do you notice any lag when using your target dummy? Let me explain what I mean. For some reason, when ever I use a Training Dummy on a couple of my characters, my game turns into a slideshow, almost like I am in PvP during a lag spike. So, my DPS numbers are 1/3 or 1/4 what I see from just normal Mob or Boss combat.

Oh, so it's not just me? That is good to know.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I have an update.

I bought a target skeleton and attacked it how I am playing (button mashing).

My average dps: 7.2k between two sessions. One session was a full stamina bar (38k) and the other was with 36k (food timer expired). I just wanted to see the difference. Took about 7 minutes to finish it off.

Do you notice any lag when using your target dummy? Let me explain what I mean. For some reason, when ever I use a Training Dummy on a couple of my characters, my game turns into a slideshow, almost like I am in PvP during a lag spike. So, my DPS numbers are 1/3 or 1/4 what I see from just normal Mob or Boss combat.

Have you tried using a dummy in an empty house to reduce lag/fps drops? The less that it has to rendered the more resources can be dedicated to what your doing. I have better FPS with less lag in my house with a dummy than i do in the game world but the house is mostly empty at the moment. It may very well change when i add a couple of hundred items to it.

I don't personally have a dummy, but I'll look into trying this. Thank you for the tip!

Runefang

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Personally I'd ignore people who say you should come up with your own build. They probably take 25-30 minutes to finish vet Fungal Grotto 1. If you're ok with having a low bar, cool, otherwise a good meta build is a great starting point.

Get the meta gear, meta skills and meta rotation. Then practice the hell outta it. Once you can pull similar numbers feel free to experiment. Aside from vma, vdsa and vAS HM items everything else is really easy to obtain.

Somebody said it best that master know the why, amateurs know the what. Be an amateur first, copy the 'what' of somebody better.

While in theory that seems like a good idea. Meta builds is basically someone else doing it for you. Generally they are bad to copy because meta builds are set up for one playstyle( the creators) and created for a specific purpose within a specific set of conditions. Imitating another person is going to lead to poor experiences.

You need to know the how and the why. If you spend all your time focusing on copying someone else and do nothing but try to achieve whatever they achieved with the build, your not learning how and why. you are trying to learn to imitate their results.

On top of this using a set rotation for everything is just dumb. Combat is fluid unlike a target dummy. You need to know what skills to use in which situations in what order and that may change constantly in combat. So the meta build itself is not important. What is important, to take away from a meta build, is the how( are they achieving that) and the why( do they use those skills, gear, cp, rotations).

On a dummy, you can do the same rotation forever because nothing changes. Its like a boxer hitting a punching a bag and then getting in the ring and fighting another person. You dont throw punches like you were on the bag.

PVP is one of the best teachers of how to adapt to ever changing situations. People are inherently unpredictable, so if you can "gitgud" at reacting to the ever changing situation in pvp from an unpredictable opponent, then you can learn to play without meta and learn how to teach yourself the hows, whens, and whys.

Though pvp in this game would not be one of the best teachers as its zergfest and crowd control central.

I'm sorry, but what is "play style" exactly?

All the best ESO builds are basically identical. Lay down the best DoTs, spam the best spammable until the DoTs run out. Repeat. All meta builds are in this game are those which have identified the best DoT skills to use and the best spammable. CP allocations and gear then best suit those skills and the rotation.

Combat isn't that fluid and skills aren't that situational. The skill in this game is mostly in staying alive while pulling off the exact same meta rotation without missing a beat. Practicing on a dummy is the first step so you can do it in your sleep such that when you need to start dodge rolling and running around its second nature.

In this game its better to start with a proven to work build first and figure out how to make it work. Because like I said, they're basically all the same.

You don't need to understand why a gun fires a bullet when you pull the trigger, just know that it does.

Sergykid

@Merlin13KAGL , aoes that deal X damage every Y seconds, being a series of direct damages, are actually considered dots. This is why tooltips sucks.

DoonerSeraph

Violynne wrote: »

I have an update.

I bought a target skeleton and attacked it how I am playing (button mashing).

My average dps: 7.2k between two sessions. One session was a full stamina bar (38k) and the other was with 36k (food timer expired). I just wanted to see the difference. Took about 7 minutes to finish it off.

What appeared as good damage can hardly qualify as damage.

I was also equally surprised to see my HAs were delivering 7k crit damage (3.5k per weapon) rounded up.

My strongest hits came from Surprise Attack, at 10k+ per hit, all crits. I hit the thing 10 times in a row, and every one was a crit. Interesting. Never noticed this before. Not sure if this was in conjunction with other attacks, but interesting indeed.

I also noticed something peculiar about my button mashing. I'm repeatedly pushing the same button (rapid strikes). I know this is a typical spam spell, but I never realized how much I'm actually pressing it.

Good test, this was. Clearly shows my weaknesses.

Okay, time for some goals:
1) level more skills
2) Work on 10k. Baby steps.
3) Learn to control
4) Bash, damn it. Not block.
5) Learn to work spells/hits together

This will take a couple of weeks. Most of my NB skills are locked because I ignored them.

Time to get busy.

Such dedication. Rooting for you.

Few tips to start the rotation training.

1. At first, work only on LA -> DOT, and try stacking as many dots as you can. Juggling these can be a bit hard.
2. As a stamblade, having leeching always up is a boon. Heals and sustains you. If you cant hold your dots because of running out of juice, try heavy attacking every 2 or 3 LA (instead of Light Attack, do a Heavy One and dot).
3. Not sure what weapons are you using, but good and cheap dots are Twin Slashes and Blade Cloak (DW), Poison Arrow and Volley (Bow), Cleave (Two Hand)
4. Dont focus on cacelling with bash or block for now. Only do Light Attack (or heavy) and immediately a DOT.
5. When you can hold those, try treating Surprise Attack as a DOT, and try keeping the debuff it gives.
6. Keep slowly adding more skills to be maintained until you are comfortable. Juggle one, juggle two...

MaleAmazon

aoes that deal X damage every Y seconds, being a series of direct damages, are actually considered dots. This is why tooltips sucks.

Are you sure? For what purpose; thaumaturge? I seem to recall sorc lightning form breaking the rune prison that only broke on direct damage.

You don't need to understand why a gun fires a bullet when you pull the trigger, just know that it does.

It is still helpful if you otherwise become totally confused when the gun starts shipping with a trigger in a different shape.

Violynne

Nestor wrote: »

Do you notice any lag when using your target dummy? Let me explain what I mean. For some reason, when ever I use a Training Dummy on a couple of my characters, my game turns into a slideshow, almost like I am in PvP during a lag spike. So, my DPS numbers are 1/3 or 1/4 what I see from just normal Mob or Boss combat.

I do not notice any lag other than losses in damage output as my stamina has run out and I have to HA to replenish. Despite my large stamina pool, it drains pretty quickly with some spells. The stamina reduction jewelry helps, but only by giving me one free cheap spell.


My target dummy is inside my living room at Cliffshade. Plenty of room.

@Anotherone773
I have my stats turned on for output damage only at this time. So many numbers flying by, I need to learn them. I see white, yellow, and orange, but I don't know what the orange means. I never noticed this color until I attacked the skeleton.

I'll turn the debuffs on for enemies tonight.

Violynne

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

Such dedication. Rooting for you.

Thanks! I'm hoping to take what I learn and help others who are struggling.

1. At first, work only on LA -> DOT, and try stacking as many dots as you can. Juggling these can be a bit hard.

This is already done. Picked this up for animation canceling. Definitely an improvement.

Most of my attacks start off with rapid + la + rapid + la in PvE playing. Solo enemies. I get flustered when I'm being attacked by mobs, and this causes me to button mash.

2. As a stamblade, having leeching always up is a boon. Heals and sustains you. If you cant hold your dots because of running out of juice, try heavy attacking every 2 or 3 LA (instead of Light Attack, do a Heavy One and dot).

My skills were "advised" against any healing morphs, instead focusing in stamina sustain.

I have Vigor, which can be thrown in as a replacement in rotation. I think I can sacrifice a 1k hit for health.

3. Not sure what weapons are you using, but good and cheap dots are Twin Slashes and Blade Cloak (DW), Poison Arrow and Volley (Bow), Cleave (Two Hand)

Night's Silence daggers and bow. All infused with Okari (power).
My bow skills are maxed out. I use Poison Injection for the DOT, sometimes Volley (morphed for the longer duration).
For dagger, primary attack is rapid strikes. I will be moving this skill to another button instead of my A button (controller), because I'm pressing "A" too much.

To control this, I'm going to put a DoT on "A". Costly, but it'll teach me to stop spamming the button.

4. Dont focus on cacelling with bash or block for now. Only do Light Attack (or heavy) and immediately a DOT.

Ah, now I see the confusion. I forgot block/bash can cancel during attacks.

What I mean by this is actually bashing to interrupt. On XBox, it's LT+RT, and I only keep pressing LT (block). I need to learn to interrupt properly.

5. When you can hold those, try treating Surprise Attack as a DOT, and try keeping the debuff it gives.

SA consumes a ton of stamina for me. I do use this frequently at dolmens, but only because someone pulling a pinion refills me quickly.

I'm currently working on leveling Drain Power and Grim Focus. GF is really nice. I can see its difference instantly. I cast it frequently and watch my buffs on it.

6. Keep slowly adding more skills to be maintained until you are comfortable. Juggle one, juggle two...

Yep. One step at a time.

I need to learn what those buff markers are. There are NO DESCRIPTIONS on them. When I cast Grim Focus, 3 show up and they all have the same 18 second timer. I have no idea what the icons represent.


I'll be using google quite a bit this weekend, that's for sure!

MaleAmazon

Night's Silence daggers and bow. All infused with Okari (power)

Dont use the same enchant on all weapons, it´s redundant. Better to use one increase power glyph (preferably on off-hand) and one damage glyph, when DW.

DoonerSeraph

Violynne wrote: »

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

Such dedication. Rooting for you.

Thanks! I'm hoping to take what I learn and help others who are struggling.

1. At first, work only on LA -> DOT, and try stacking as many dots as you can. Juggling these can be a bit hard.

This is already done. Picked this up for animation canceling. Definitely an improvement.

Most of my attacks start off with rapid + la + rapid + la in PvE playing. Solo enemies. I get flustered when I'm being attacked by mobs, and this causes me to button mash.

2. As a stamblade, having leeching always up is a boon. Heals and sustains you. If you cant hold your dots because of running out of juice, try heavy attacking every 2 or 3 LA (instead of Light Attack, do a Heavy One and dot).

My skills were "advised" against any healing morphs, instead focusing in stamina sustain.

I have Vigor, which can be thrown in as a replacement in rotation. I think I can sacrifice a 1k hit for health.

3. Not sure what weapons are you using, but good and cheap dots are Twin Slashes and Blade Cloak (DW), Poison Arrow and Volley (Bow), Cleave (Two Hand)

Night's Silence daggers and bow. All infused with Okari (power).
My bow skills are maxed out. I use Poison Injection for the DOT, sometimes Volley (morphed for the longer duration).
For dagger, primary attack is rapid strikes. I will be moving this skill to another button instead of my A button (controller), because I'm pressing "A" too much.

To control this, I'm going to put a DoT on "A". Costly, but it'll teach me to stop spamming the button.

4. Dont focus on cacelling with bash or block for now. Only do Light Attack (or heavy) and immediately a DOT.

Ah, now I see the confusion. I forgot block/bash can cancel during attacks.

What I mean by this is actually bashing to interrupt. On XBox, it's LT+RT, and I only keep pressing LT (block). I need to learn to interrupt properly.

5. When you can hold those, try treating Surprise Attack as a DOT, and try keeping the debuff it gives.

SA consumes a ton of stamina for me. I do use this frequently at dolmens, but only because someone pulling a pinion refills me quickly.

I'm currently working on leveling Drain Power and Grim Focus. GF is really nice. I can see its difference instantly. I cast it frequently and watch my buffs on it.

6. Keep slowly adding more skills to be maintained until you are comfortable. Juggle one, juggle two...

Yep. One step at a time.

I need to learn what those buff markers are. There are NO DESCRIPTIONS on them. When I cast Grim Focus, 3 show up and they all have the same 18 second timer. I have no idea what the icons represent.


I'll be using google quite a bit this weekend, that's for sure!

Im on mobile so I cant respond specifically to parts of the post.

1. About leeching. Leeching Strikes is a morph of a siphoning skill that costs stamina, and buffs you. Everytime you hit an enemy, leeching restores stamina for you (heals too, but not that important), and when it ends,restores a big chunk of stamina. Its not a replacement for vigor bit surely helps you mantain your stam topped!
2. I suggest replacing rapid strikes with Surprise. Surprise Attack is faster, and breaks enemy defenses, albeit a bit costly, you dont need to sustain both IMO.

Nestor

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Have you tried using a dummy in an empty house to reduce lag/fps drops? The less that it has to rendered the more resources can be dedicated to what your doing. I have better FPS with less lag in my house with a dummy than i do in the game world but the house is mostly empty at the moment. It may very well change when i add a couple of hundred items to it.

Yep. Empty House, full house, somewhere in between. Even at other peoples houses it happens. However, someone else can use the dummy while I am standing there and it works just fine for them.

jedtb16_ESO

Kalgert wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I have an update.

I bought a target skeleton and attacked it how I am playing (button mashing).

My average dps: 7.2k between two sessions. One session was a full stamina bar (38k) and the other was with 36k (food timer expired). I just wanted to see the difference. Took about 7 minutes to finish it off.

What appeared as good damage can hardly qualify as damage.

I was also equally surprised to see my HAs were delivering 7k crit damage (3.5k per weapon) rounded up.

My strongest hits came from Surprise Attack, at 10k+ per hit, all crits. I hit the thing 10 times in a row, and every one was a crit. Interesting. Never noticed this before. Not sure if this was in conjunction with other attacks, but interesting indeed.

I also noticed something peculiar about my button mashing. I'm repeatedly pushing the same button (rapid strikes). I know this is a typical spam spell, but I never realized how much I'm actually pressing it.

Good test, this was. Clearly shows my weaknesses.

Okay, time for some goals:
1) level more skills
2) Work on 10k. Baby steps.
3) Learn to control
4) Bash, damn it. Not block.
5) Learn to work spells/hits together

This will take a couple of weeks. Most of my NB skills are locked because I ignored them.

Time to get busy.

Where can I get a target skeleton? Might want to have one at home, so me and my girlfriend can dance with and possibly punch as well.

You can either do the CWC precurser quest thingy for a 300k health one, do writs to buy one from the writ merchant, or buy one from a guild store for 60k~

Ah, so there are a few options. Alright, thanks for letting me know.

go for the precursor... it's the cheapest option plus you get to visit parts of the map you may never have been to before. the quest is well documented on google.

edit to add: one thing to bear in mind... target dummies don't hit back.

DoonerSeraph

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

Such dedication. Rooting for you.

Thanks! I'm hoping to take what I learn and help others who are struggling.

1. At first, work only on LA -> DOT, and try stacking as many dots as you can. Juggling these can be a bit hard.

This is already done. Picked this up for animation canceling. Definitely an improvement.

Most of my attacks start off with rapid + la + rapid + la in PvE playing. Solo enemies. I get flustered when I'm being attacked by mobs, and this causes me to button mash.

2. As a stamblade, having leeching always up is a boon. Heals and sustains you. If you cant hold your dots because of running out of juice, try heavy attacking every 2 or 3 LA (instead of Light Attack, do a Heavy One and dot).

My skills were "advised" against any healing morphs, instead focusing in stamina sustain.

I have Vigor, which can be thrown in as a replacement in rotation. I think I can sacrifice a 1k hit for health.

3. Not sure what weapons are you using, but good and cheap dots are Twin Slashes and Blade Cloak (DW), Poison Arrow and Volley (Bow), Cleave (Two Hand)

Night's Silence daggers and bow. All infused with Okari (power).
My bow skills are maxed out. I use Poison Injection for the DOT, sometimes Volley (morphed for the longer duration).
For dagger, primary attack is rapid strikes. I will be moving this skill to another button instead of my A button (controller), because I'm pressing "A" too much.

To control this, I'm going to put a DoT on "A". Costly, but it'll teach me to stop spamming the button.

4. Dont focus on cacelling with bash or block for now. Only do Light Attack (or heavy) and immediately a DOT.

Ah, now I see the confusion. I forgot block/bash can cancel during attacks.

What I mean by this is actually bashing to interrupt. On XBox, it's LT+RT, and I only keep pressing LT (block). I need to learn to interrupt properly.

5. When you can hold those, try treating Surprise Attack as a DOT, and try keeping the debuff it gives.

SA consumes a ton of stamina for me. I do use this frequently at dolmens, but only because someone pulling a pinion refills me quickly.

I'm currently working on leveling Drain Power and Grim Focus. GF is really nice. I can see its difference instantly. I cast it frequently and watch my buffs on it.

6. Keep slowly adding more skills to be maintained until you are comfortable. Juggle one, juggle two...

Yep. One step at a time.

I need to learn what those buff markers are. There are NO DESCRIPTIONS on them. When I cast Grim Focus, 3 show up and they all have the same 18 second timer. I have no idea what the icons represent.


I'll be using google quite a bit this weekend, that's for sure!

Im on mobile so I cant respond specifically to parts of the post.

1. About leeching. Leeching Strikes is a morph of a siphoning skill that costs stamina, and buffs you. Everytime you hit an enemy, leeching restores stamina for you (heals too, but not that important), and when it ends,restores a big chunk of stamina. Its not a replacement for vigor bit surely helps you mantain your stam topped!
2. I suggest replacing rapid strikes with Surprise. Surprise Attack is faster, and breaks enemy defenses, albeit a bit costly, you dont need to sustain both IMO.

Ah! About Grim Focus! Each light attack gives you a stack of GF. 5 stacks and the skill turns into Assassins Will, so you can fire the spectral bow.

Merlin13KAGL

Sergykid wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL , aoes that deal X damage every Y seconds, being a series of direct damages, are actually considered dots. This is why tooltips sucks.

@Sergykid maybe they've corrected some of it then. I know regarding damage types per combat text, the two show up differently still (yet they'll still proc Skoria, which requires a DoT)

100% agree that the method of description and ambiguity on most skills is absolutely atrocious.

There used to be some subtle difference that was supposed to be differentiated by the wording ('over' vs 'every'). In either case, you shouldn't have to reverse engineer the damn thing to know how it should behave.

Anotherone773

Runefang wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Personally I'd ignore people who say you should come up with your own build. They probably take 25-30 minutes to finish vet Fungal Grotto 1. If you're ok with having a low bar, cool, otherwise a good meta build is a great starting point.

Get the meta gear, meta skills and meta rotation. Then practice the hell outta it. Once you can pull similar numbers feel free to experiment. Aside from vma, vdsa and vAS HM items everything else is really easy to obtain.

Somebody said it best that master know the why, amateurs know the what. Be an amateur first, copy the 'what' of somebody better.

While in theory that seems like a good idea. Meta builds is basically someone else doing it for you. Generally they are bad to copy because meta builds are set up for one playstyle( the creators) and created for a specific purpose within a specific set of conditions. Imitating another person is going to lead to poor experiences.

You need to know the how and the why. If you spend all your time focusing on copying someone else and do nothing but try to achieve whatever they achieved with the build, your not learning how and why. you are trying to learn to imitate their results.

On top of this using a set rotation for everything is just dumb. Combat is fluid unlike a target dummy. You need to know what skills to use in which situations in what order and that may change constantly in combat. So the meta build itself is not important. What is important, to take away from a meta build, is the how( are they achieving that) and the why( do they use those skills, gear, cp, rotations).

On a dummy, you can do the same rotation forever because nothing changes. Its like a boxer hitting a punching a bag and then getting in the ring and fighting another person. You dont throw punches like you were on the bag.

PVP is one of the best teachers of how to adapt to ever changing situations. People are inherently unpredictable, so if you can "gitgud" at reacting to the ever changing situation in pvp from an unpredictable opponent, then you can learn to play without meta and learn how to teach yourself the hows, whens, and whys.

Though pvp in this game would not be one of the best teachers as its zergfest and crowd control central.

I'm sorry, but what is "play style" exactly?

All the best ESO builds are basically identical. Lay down the best DoTs, spam the best spammable until the DoTs run out. Repeat. All meta builds are in this game are those which have identified the best DoT skills to use and the best spammable. CP allocations and gear then best suit those skills and the rotation.

Combat isn't that fluid and skills aren't that situational. The skill in this game is mostly in staying alive while pulling off the exact same meta rotation without missing a beat. Practicing on a dummy is the first step so you can do it in your sleep such that when you need to start dodge rolling and running around its second nature.

In this game its better to start with a proven to work build first and figure out how to make it work. Because like I said, they're basically all the same.

You don't need to understand why a gun fires a bullet when you pull the trigger, just know that it does.

The problem is you assume everyone wants to be a "meta end game player" and for a majority of the population that is not the case. They just want to be able to kill stuff reasonably fast and do most/all content. Since you can do ALL content with 25k dps there is no reason to need a 40k plus dps build. Elitists are the ones telling everyone you "must have" this in order to do the content, which is a lie for their own selfish gains. They want to play with max dps players so they can blow through everything in a few minutes whereas much of the player base doesnt care about speed running everything. Getting there fast is not as important as getting there.


So the "few" meta builds are only a "few" to elitists. For everyone one else there is a very wide range of builds that will work. For example i have a single bar bowblade that still can pull 20k dps which is fine for most content. And there are many more builds when you lower you standards to something that is reasonable and can do all content. Its not about what is best, it about what is fun. And its not fun if everyone in the game uses the same half dozen builds, its boring.

Combat is actually really fluid. The dummy version of builds just compensates for someone not being able to understand what to use in what situation. For example everyone would say with a bow to throw caltrops and endless hail. you want your dots going first. Do you know how many bosses in this game move around even with a good tank? Tossing caltrops, hail, and other ground based aoe dots is a waste on some bosses. Or there are only certain times during the fight you should cast them. For example if you know a boss does a charge to the other side of the room and then will stay put for 10-15 seconds you know to toss after the charge regardless of where in your rotation you may have it.

This is what i mean. Following a rotation of someone else isnt a good playstyle. You need to know how to adapt your abilities to the situation in hand. For example when im clearing public dungeons solo i toss caltrop, hail, and drain shot everything once. Everything dies in a couple of seconds and i move on. When i get to the dungeon boss, i use a completely different method and that method depends on the boss and what it does.

And yes you need to know why a gun fires a bullet when you pull the trigger because if you dont understand that your going to be the idiot that looks down the barrel when it doesnt fire not realizing that it may still fire. Its why we end up with so many accidents in the US with guns because people dont understand how a gun works outside of "pull trigger, gun go boom"

Anotherone773

Nestor wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Have you tried using a dummy in an empty house to reduce lag/fps drops? The less that it has to rendered the more resources can be dedicated to what your doing. I have better FPS with less lag in my house with a dummy than i do in the game world but the house is mostly empty at the moment. It may very well change when i add a couple of hundred items to it.

Yep. Empty House, full house, somewhere in between. Even at other peoples houses it happens. However, someone else can use the dummy while I am standing there and it works just fine for them.

Thats weird ive noticed a bit of lag on occasion when i use a dummy but its not different than a random short spike in the game world. And its not persistent while in the house. Usually for the first 10-15 seconds of my first parse it may lag and after that i could parse 8 hours straight and not get lag. I assumed it had to do with loading the whole house or something. My dummy is in mornmoth keep

Sting864

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

Ah! About Grim Focus! Each light attack gives you a stack of GF. 5 stacks and the skill turns into Assassins Will, so you can fire the spectral bow.

Fascinating....

Marginis

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Personally I'd ignore people who say you should come up with your own build. They probably take 25-30 minutes to finish vet Fungal Grotto 1. If you're ok with having a low bar, cool, otherwise a good meta build is a great starting point.

Get the meta gear, meta skills and meta rotation. Then practice the hell outta it. Once you can pull similar numbers feel free to experiment. Aside from vma, vdsa and vAS HM items everything else is really easy to obtain.

Somebody said it best that master know the why, amateurs know the what. Be an amateur first, copy the 'what' of somebody better.

While in theory that seems like a good idea. Meta builds is basically someone else doing it for you. Generally they are bad to copy because meta builds are set up for one playstyle( the creators) and created for a specific purpose within a specific set of conditions. Imitating another person is going to lead to poor experiences.

You need to know the how and the why. If you spend all your time focusing on copying someone else and do nothing but try to achieve whatever they achieved with the build, your not learning how and why. you are trying to learn to imitate their results.

On top of this using a set rotation for everything is just dumb. Combat is fluid unlike a target dummy. You need to know what skills to use in which situations in what order and that may change constantly in combat. So the meta build itself is not important. What is important, to take away from a meta build, is the how( are they achieving that) and the why( do they use those skills, gear, cp, rotations).

On a dummy, you can do the same rotation forever because nothing changes. Its like a boxer hitting a punching a bag and then getting in the ring and fighting another person. You dont throw punches like you were on the bag.

PVP is one of the best teachers of how to adapt to ever changing situations. People are inherently unpredictable, so if you can "gitgud" at reacting to the ever changing situation in pvp from an unpredictable opponent, then you can learn to play without meta and learn how to teach yourself the hows, whens, and whys.

Though pvp in this game would not be one of the best teachers as its zergfest and crowd control central.

I'm sorry, but what is "play style" exactly?

All the best ESO builds are basically identical. Lay down the best DoTs, spam the best spammable until the DoTs run out. Repeat. All meta builds are in this game are those which have identified the best DoT skills to use and the best spammable. CP allocations and gear then best suit those skills and the rotation.

Combat isn't that fluid and skills aren't that situational. The skill in this game is mostly in staying alive while pulling off the exact same meta rotation without missing a beat. Practicing on a dummy is the first step so you can do it in your sleep such that when you need to start dodge rolling and running around its second nature.

In this game its better to start with a proven to work build first and figure out how to make it work. Because like I said, they're basically all the same.

You don't need to understand why a gun fires a bullet when you pull the trigger, just know that it does.

The problem is you assume everyone wants to be a "meta end game player" and for a majority of the population that is not the case. They just want to be able to kill stuff reasonably fast and do most/all content. Since you can do ALL content with 25k dps there is no reason to need a 40k plus dps build. Elitists are the ones telling everyone you "must have" this in order to do the content, which is a lie for their own selfish gains. They want to play with max dps players so they can blow through everything in a few minutes whereas much of the player base doesnt care about speed running everything. Getting there fast is not as important as getting there.


So the "few" meta builds are only a "few" to elitists. For everyone one else there is a very wide range of builds that will work. For example i have a single bar bowblade that still can pull 20k dps which is fine for most content. And there are many more builds when you lower you standards to something that is reasonable and can do all content. Its not about what is best, it about what is fun. And its not fun if everyone in the game uses the same half dozen builds, its boring.

Combat is actually really fluid. The dummy version of builds just compensates for someone not being able to understand what to use in what situation. For example everyone would say with a bow to throw caltrops and endless hail. you want your dots going first. Do you know how many bosses in this game move around even with a good tank? Tossing caltrops, hail, and other ground based aoe dots is a waste on some bosses. Or there are only certain times during the fight you should cast them. For example if you know a boss does a charge to the other side of the room and then will stay put for 10-15 seconds you know to toss after the charge regardless of where in your rotation you may have it.

This is what i mean. Following a rotation of someone else isnt a good playstyle. You need to know how to adapt your abilities to the situation in hand. For example when im clearing public dungeons solo i toss caltrop, hail, and drain shot everything once. Everything dies in a couple of seconds and i move on. When i get to the dungeon boss, i use a completely different method and that method depends on the boss and what it does.

And yes you need to know why a gun fires a bullet when you pull the trigger because if you dont understand that your going to be the idiot that looks down the barrel when it doesnt fire not realizing that it may still fire. Its why we end up with so many accidents in the US with guns because people dont understand how a gun works outside of "pull trigger, gun go boom"

I'm actually going to agree, it's important to know why and how something works, not just that it does. This is why so many of my math students suck at math even though they did great the year before. They just memorized formulas and what to do, and it just worked... until this year. Now they have no idea what's going on and can't adapt because they can't just memorize formulas anymore. I have to go back and teach them what multiplication means, and that it's not just putting two numbers together with this symbol and you get the answer.

Or like with guns, the example initially provided, it's important to know how the guns work, because then you don't end up with the gun exploding in your hand (I've seen this happen with someone who owned a gun, thought all you needed to know was point and shoot).

Sting864

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Elitists are the ones telling everyone you "must have" this in order to do the content, which is a lie for their own selfish gains. They want to play with max dps players so they can blow through everything in a few minutes whereas much of the player base doesnt care about speed running everything. Getting there fast is not as important as getting there.

Perhaps these "elitists" are really not that good, and can only get past a boss if they play with max DPS players... I also get frustrated when these "elitists" call for a wipe if they get killed... As if they are an essential part to the GROUP's success...

MaleAmazon

Perhaps these "elitists" are really not that good, and can only get past a boss if they play with max DPS players... I also get frustrated when these "elitists" call for a wipe if they get killed... As if they are an essential part to the GROUP's success...

Yeah. One of my major annoyances in ESO is that many people, even in GF, assume everyone wants to skip content in places like Blackheart Haven and Ruins of Mazzatun. I get it, you have your agenda.

IMO one of the best things that could happen to ESO is if we could get a community split in both PvP and PvE so we could actually get casual PvP (right now there´s basically none in my experience) and casual / noncasual PvE. Good fences make good neighbours IMO. And no, veteran mode doesn´t do this.

"OMG no HM then I don´t get max keys, wipe!!!" is another favourite. Really, do you really, really, need all those keys?

Also, I have very far from top DPS and I´ve still pulled my weight in groups that mowed through vet DLC dungeons. "40k" is also a DPS figure where I´d like to see some context...

Horowonnoe

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Perhaps these "elitists" are really not that good, and can only get past a boss if they play with max DPS players... I also get frustrated when these "elitists" call for a wipe if they get killed... As if they are an essential part to the GROUP's success...

Yeah. One of my major annoyances in ESO is that many people, even in GF, assume everyone wants to skip content in places like Blackheart Haven and Ruins of Mazzatun. I get it, you have your agenda.

IMO one of the best things that could happen to ESO is if we could get a community split in both PvP and PvE so we could actually get casual PvP (right now there´s basically none in my experience) and casual / noncasual PvE. Good fences make good neighbours IMO. And no, veteran mode doesn´t do this.

"OMG no HM then I don´t get max keys, wipe!!!" is another favourite. Really, do you really, really, need all those keys?

Also, I have very far from top DPS and I´ve still pulled my weight in groups that mowed through vet DLC dungeons. "40k" is also a DPS figure where I´d like to see some context...

I mean when someone says they pull 40k i expect that on a dummy self buffed, not on a mudcrab.

Sekero

@Violynne

Your quest has interested me more than most of the quests ingame, and is imho more relevant. How are you progressing?
I'm taking notes as you go because you are following a path that I think I should be following. Hence the interest.

p00tx

I felt the same way when I first started playing. There is a lot to take in, and it's easy to feel overwhelmed when you're comparing yourself to the veteran players.

Two suggestions:

1) Slow down and remove all of your expectations from yourself that deal in timelines for accomplishments. This game is massive, and you're not going to have it all figured out overnight. It's okay if things take a while to figure out. I know day one players who are still learning new things about this game.

2) Find a good guild. This may be easier said than done, and chances are you're going to go through a few less than helpful groups before finding the right fit for you. The right group will not only be willing to share that much needed information with you, but will challenge you and help you grow your character into something you can be proud of.

Anotherone773

Marginis wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Personally I'd ignore people who say you should come up with your own build. They probably take 25-30 minutes to finish vet Fungal Grotto 1. If you're ok with having a low bar, cool, otherwise a good meta build is a great starting point.

Get the meta gear, meta skills and meta rotation. Then practice the hell outta it. Once you can pull similar numbers feel free to experiment. Aside from vma, vdsa and vAS HM items everything else is really easy to obtain.

Somebody said it best that master know the why, amateurs know the what. Be an amateur first, copy the 'what' of somebody better.

While in theory that seems like a good idea. Meta builds is basically someone else doing it for you. Generally they are bad to copy because meta builds are set up for one playstyle( the creators) and created for a specific purpose within a specific set of conditions. Imitating another person is going to lead to poor experiences.

You need to know the how and the why. If you spend all your time focusing on copying someone else and do nothing but try to achieve whatever they achieved with the build, your not learning how and why. you are trying to learn to imitate their results.

On top of this using a set rotation for everything is just dumb. Combat is fluid unlike a target dummy. You need to know what skills to use in which situations in what order and that may change constantly in combat. So the meta build itself is not important. What is important, to take away from a meta build, is the how( are they achieving that) and the why( do they use those skills, gear, cp, rotations).

On a dummy, you can do the same rotation forever because nothing changes. Its like a boxer hitting a punching a bag and then getting in the ring and fighting another person. You dont throw punches like you were on the bag.

PVP is one of the best teachers of how to adapt to ever changing situations. People are inherently unpredictable, so if you can "gitgud" at reacting to the ever changing situation in pvp from an unpredictable opponent, then you can learn to play without meta and learn how to teach yourself the hows, whens, and whys.

Though pvp in this game would not be one of the best teachers as its zergfest and crowd control central.

I'm sorry, but what is "play style" exactly?

All the best ESO builds are basically identical. Lay down the best DoTs, spam the best spammable until the DoTs run out. Repeat. All meta builds are in this game are those which have identified the best DoT skills to use and the best spammable. CP allocations and gear then best suit those skills and the rotation.

Combat isn't that fluid and skills aren't that situational. The skill in this game is mostly in staying alive while pulling off the exact same meta rotation without missing a beat. Practicing on a dummy is the first step so you can do it in your sleep such that when you need to start dodge rolling and running around its second nature.

In this game its better to start with a proven to work build first and figure out how to make it work. Because like I said, they're basically all the same.

You don't need to understand why a gun fires a bullet when you pull the trigger, just know that it does.

The problem is you assume everyone wants to be a "meta end game player" and for a majority of the population that is not the case. They just want to be able to kill stuff reasonably fast and do most/all content. Since you can do ALL content with 25k dps there is no reason to need a 40k plus dps build. Elitists are the ones telling everyone you "must have" this in order to do the content, which is a lie for their own selfish gains. They want to play with max dps players so they can blow through everything in a few minutes whereas much of the player base doesnt care about speed running everything. Getting there fast is not as important as getting there.


So the "few" meta builds are only a "few" to elitists. For everyone one else there is a very wide range of builds that will work. For example i have a single bar bowblade that still can pull 20k dps which is fine for most content. And there are many more builds when you lower you standards to something that is reasonable and can do all content. Its not about what is best, it about what is fun. And its not fun if everyone in the game uses the same half dozen builds, its boring.

Combat is actually really fluid. The dummy version of builds just compensates for someone not being able to understand what to use in what situation. For example everyone would say with a bow to throw caltrops and endless hail. you want your dots going first. Do you know how many bosses in this game move around even with a good tank? Tossing caltrops, hail, and other ground based aoe dots is a waste on some bosses. Or there are only certain times during the fight you should cast them. For example if you know a boss does a charge to the other side of the room and then will stay put for 10-15 seconds you know to toss after the charge regardless of where in your rotation you may have it.

This is what i mean. Following a rotation of someone else isnt a good playstyle. You need to know how to adapt your abilities to the situation in hand. For example when im clearing public dungeons solo i toss caltrop, hail, and drain shot everything once. Everything dies in a couple of seconds and i move on. When i get to the dungeon boss, i use a completely different method and that method depends on the boss and what it does.

And yes you need to know why a gun fires a bullet when you pull the trigger because if you dont understand that your going to be the idiot that looks down the barrel when it doesnt fire not realizing that it may still fire. Its why we end up with so many accidents in the US with guns because people dont understand how a gun works outside of "pull trigger, gun go boom"

I'm actually going to agree, it's important to know why and how something works, not just that it does. This is why so many of my math students suck at math even though they did great the year before. They just memorized formulas and what to do, and it just worked... until this year. Now they have no idea what's going on and can't adapt because they can't just memorize formulas anymore. I have to go back and teach them what multiplication means, and that it's not just putting two numbers together with this symbol and you get the answer.

Or like with guns, the example initially provided, it's important to know how the guns work, because then you don't end up with the gun exploding in your hand (I've seen this happen with someone who owned a gun, thought all you needed to know was point and shoot).

You are not alone in this. I am a carpenter by trade and i see the same sort of things in my trade. I get people who go to school for carpentry but have very little hands on. They just memorized everything rather than learned how to apply that knowledge and use it in a real world situation. So if they come across something that isnt exactly like they memorized they cant do it even though they technically know how. They just dont know how to apply the knowledge to the task. So i have to teach them anyway...though they do learn it a bit faster than someone with no experience or schooling.

Sting864 wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Elitists are the ones telling everyone you "must have" this in order to do the content, which is a lie for their own selfish gains. They want to play with max dps players so they can blow through everything in a few minutes whereas much of the player base doesnt care about speed running everything. Getting there fast is not as important as getting there.

Perhaps these "elitists" are really not that good, and can only get past a boss if they play with max DPS players... I also get frustrated when these "elitists" call for a wipe if they get killed... As if they are an essential part to the GROUP's success...

It doesnt take skills to follow someone elses builds. That is why metas are called cookie cutters. It requires nothing but practice and following directions. It is also why meta players and elitists are unimpressive to me. Its like my wife can build a coffee table that comes in a box with an instruction sheet. It doesnt make her a carpenter, just good at following directions.

What takes real skill is building your own characters and not always using the BiS and still being able to do content with it. What takes real skill is running a bunch of new/casual players through vet end game content and beating it. That handicap and still succeeding is what takes skill. Running through VMoL with a bunch of 40k plus meta clones isnt impressive nor brag worthy.

Sting864

Anotherone773 wrote: »

It doesnt take skills to follow someone elses builds. That is why metas are called cookie cutters. It requires nothing but practice and following directions. It is also why meta players and elitists are unimpressive to me. Its like my wife can build a coffee table that comes in a box with an instruction sheet. It doesnt make her a carpenter, just good at following directions.

What takes real skill is building your own characters and not always using the BiS and still being able to do content with it. What takes real skill is running a bunch of new/casual players through vet end game content and beating it. That handicap and still succeeding is what takes skill. Running through VMoL with a bunch of 40k plus meta clones isnt impressive nor brag worthy.

I agree so much with this (except for your "wife" comment.... It's a better idea to just recognize her as a master at whatever she does... ) I have been into ESO since before public release and have never used a build. In fact I find the game much more enjoyable when I run lowbies or newbies through nPledges... They may not get viable set items, but they get major experience and hopefully won't mind paying it forward....

Runefang

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Personally I'd ignore people who say you should come up with your own build. They probably take 25-30 minutes to finish vet Fungal Grotto 1. If you're ok with having a low bar, cool, otherwise a good meta build is a great starting point.

Get the meta gear, meta skills and meta rotation. Then practice the hell outta it. Once you can pull similar numbers feel free to experiment. Aside from vma, vdsa and vAS HM items everything else is really easy to obtain.

Somebody said it best that master know the why, amateurs know the what. Be an amateur first, copy the 'what' of somebody better.

While in theory that seems like a good idea. Meta builds is basically someone else doing it for you. Generally they are bad to copy because meta builds are set up for one playstyle( the creators) and created for a specific purpose within a specific set of conditions. Imitating another person is going to lead to poor experiences.

You need to know the how and the why. If you spend all your time focusing on copying someone else and do nothing but try to achieve whatever they achieved with the build, your not learning how and why. you are trying to learn to imitate their results.

On top of this using a set rotation for everything is just dumb. Combat is fluid unlike a target dummy. You need to know what skills to use in which situations in what order and that may change constantly in combat. So the meta build itself is not important. What is important, to take away from a meta build, is the how( are they achieving that) and the why( do they use those skills, gear, cp, rotations).

On a dummy, you can do the same rotation forever because nothing changes. Its like a boxer hitting a punching a bag and then getting in the ring and fighting another person. You dont throw punches like you were on the bag.

PVP is one of the best teachers of how to adapt to ever changing situations. People are inherently unpredictable, so if you can "gitgud" at reacting to the ever changing situation in pvp from an unpredictable opponent, then you can learn to play without meta and learn how to teach yourself the hows, whens, and whys.

Though pvp in this game would not be one of the best teachers as its zergfest and crowd control central.

I'm sorry, but what is "play style" exactly?

All the best ESO builds are basically identical. Lay down the best DoTs, spam the best spammable until the DoTs run out. Repeat. All meta builds are in this game are those which have identified the best DoT skills to use and the best spammable. CP allocations and gear then best suit those skills and the rotation.

Combat isn't that fluid and skills aren't that situational. The skill in this game is mostly in staying alive while pulling off the exact same meta rotation without missing a beat. Practicing on a dummy is the first step so you can do it in your sleep such that when you need to start dodge rolling and running around its second nature.

In this game its better to start with a proven to work build first and figure out how to make it work. Because like I said, they're basically all the same.

You don't need to understand why a gun fires a bullet when you pull the trigger, just know that it does.

The problem is you assume everyone wants to be a "meta end game player" and for a majority of the population that is not the case. They just want to be able to kill stuff reasonably fast and do most/all content. Since you can do ALL content with 25k dps there is no reason to need a 40k plus dps build. Elitists are the ones telling everyone you "must have" this in order to do the content, which is a lie for their own selfish gains. They want to play with max dps players so they can blow through everything in a few minutes whereas much of the player base doesnt care about speed running everything. Getting there fast is not as important as getting there.


So the "few" meta builds are only a "few" to elitists. For everyone one else there is a very wide range of builds that will work. For example i have a single bar bowblade that still can pull 20k dps which is fine for most content. And there are many more builds when you lower you standards to something that is reasonable and can do all content. Its not about what is best, it about what is fun. And its not fun if everyone in the game uses the same half dozen builds, its boring.

Combat is actually really fluid. The dummy version of builds just compensates for someone not being able to understand what to use in what situation. For example everyone would say with a bow to throw caltrops and endless hail. you want your dots going first. Do you know how many bosses in this game move around even with a good tank? Tossing caltrops, hail, and other ground based aoe dots is a waste on some bosses. Or there are only certain times during the fight you should cast them. For example if you know a boss does a charge to the other side of the room and then will stay put for 10-15 seconds you know to toss after the charge regardless of where in your rotation you may have it.

This is what i mean. Following a rotation of someone else isnt a good playstyle. You need to know how to adapt your abilities to the situation in hand. For example when im clearing public dungeons solo i toss caltrop, hail, and drain shot everything once. Everything dies in a couple of seconds and i move on. When i get to the dungeon boss, i use a completely different method and that method depends on the boss and what it does.

And yes you need to know why a gun fires a bullet when you pull the trigger because if you dont understand that your going to be the idiot that looks down the barrel when it doesnt fire not realizing that it may still fire. Its why we end up with so many accidents in the US with guns because people dont understand how a gun works outside of "pull trigger, gun go boom"

You mean you use AoE abilities on mobs and a single target rotation on a boss? Well I'm glad you understand the need to do that...

The OP wants to 'git gud' unless I'm mistaken, the easiest path to that is follow the meta. First do the what, then understand the how, then learn the why.

It's a learning process and I absolutely believe it's better to start with the meta and go from there.

Anotherone773

Runefang wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Personally I'd ignore people who say you should come up with your own build. They probably take 25-30 minutes to finish vet Fungal Grotto 1. If you're ok with having a low bar, cool, otherwise a good meta build is a great starting point.

Get the meta gear, meta skills and meta rotation. Then practice the hell outta it. Once you can pull similar numbers feel free to experiment. Aside from vma, vdsa and vAS HM items everything else is really easy to obtain.

Somebody said it best that master know the why, amateurs know the what. Be an amateur first, copy the 'what' of somebody better.

While in theory that seems like a good idea. Meta builds is basically someone else doing it for you. Generally they are bad to copy because meta builds are set up for one playstyle( the creators) and created for a specific purpose within a specific set of conditions. Imitating another person is going to lead to poor experiences.

You need to know the how and the why. If you spend all your time focusing on copying someone else and do nothing but try to achieve whatever they achieved with the build, your not learning how and why. you are trying to learn to imitate their results.

On top of this using a set rotation for everything is just dumb. Combat is fluid unlike a target dummy. You need to know what skills to use in which situations in what order and that may change constantly in combat. So the meta build itself is not important. What is important, to take away from a meta build, is the how( are they achieving that) and the why( do they use those skills, gear, cp, rotations).

On a dummy, you can do the same rotation forever because nothing changes. Its like a boxer hitting a punching a bag and then getting in the ring and fighting another person. You dont throw punches like you were on the bag.

PVP is one of the best teachers of how to adapt to ever changing situations. People are inherently unpredictable, so if you can "gitgud" at reacting to the ever changing situation in pvp from an unpredictable opponent, then you can learn to play without meta and learn how to teach yourself the hows, whens, and whys.

Though pvp in this game would not be one of the best teachers as its zergfest and crowd control central.

I'm sorry, but what is "play style" exactly?

All the best ESO builds are basically identical. Lay down the best DoTs, spam the best spammable until the DoTs run out. Repeat. All meta builds are in this game are those which have identified the best DoT skills to use and the best spammable. CP allocations and gear then best suit those skills and the rotation.

Combat isn't that fluid and skills aren't that situational. The skill in this game is mostly in staying alive while pulling off the exact same meta rotation without missing a beat. Practicing on a dummy is the first step so you can do it in your sleep such that when you need to start dodge rolling and running around its second nature.

In this game its better to start with a proven to work build first and figure out how to make it work. Because like I said, they're basically all the same.

You don't need to understand why a gun fires a bullet when you pull the trigger, just know that it does.

The problem is you assume everyone wants to be a "meta end game player" and for a majority of the population that is not the case. They just want to be able to kill stuff reasonably fast and do most/all content. Since you can do ALL content with 25k dps there is no reason to need a 40k plus dps build. Elitists are the ones telling everyone you "must have" this in order to do the content, which is a lie for their own selfish gains. They want to play with max dps players so they can blow through everything in a few minutes whereas much of the player base doesnt care about speed running everything. Getting there fast is not as important as getting there.


So the "few" meta builds are only a "few" to elitists. For everyone one else there is a very wide range of builds that will work. For example i have a single bar bowblade that still can pull 20k dps which is fine for most content. And there are many more builds when you lower you standards to something that is reasonable and can do all content. Its not about what is best, it about what is fun. And its not fun if everyone in the game uses the same half dozen builds, its boring.

Combat is actually really fluid. The dummy version of builds just compensates for someone not being able to understand what to use in what situation. For example everyone would say with a bow to throw caltrops and endless hail. you want your dots going first. Do you know how many bosses in this game move around even with a good tank? Tossing caltrops, hail, and other ground based aoe dots is a waste on some bosses. Or there are only certain times during the fight you should cast them. For example if you know a boss does a charge to the other side of the room and then will stay put for 10-15 seconds you know to toss after the charge regardless of where in your rotation you may have it.

This is what i mean. Following a rotation of someone else isnt a good playstyle. You need to know how to adapt your abilities to the situation in hand. For example when im clearing public dungeons solo i toss caltrop, hail, and drain shot everything once. Everything dies in a couple of seconds and i move on. When i get to the dungeon boss, i use a completely different method and that method depends on the boss and what it does.

And yes you need to know why a gun fires a bullet when you pull the trigger because if you dont understand that your going to be the idiot that looks down the barrel when it doesnt fire not realizing that it may still fire. Its why we end up with so many accidents in the US with guns because people dont understand how a gun works outside of "pull trigger, gun go boom"

You mean you use AoE abilities on mobs and a single target rotation on a boss? Well I'm glad you understand the need to do that...

The OP wants to 'git gud' unless I'm mistaken, the easiest path to that is follow the meta. First do the what, then understand the how, then learn the why.

It's a learning process and I absolutely believe it's better to start with the meta and go from there.

Well if you havent noticed, pretty much every meta contains AOE DoTs. and considering meta builds are set up for boss fights and not groups of trash, the shade you are throwing isnt landing.

Also i believe the OP has attempted to follow builds, but hasnt met with much success because they dont teach the how or the why, they just tell you the what.

We will disagree on the whole meta thing. I think its a hindrance all the way around and should only be used to point you in the right direction. I think you need to ask yourself the how and the why as you go a long. Why is penetration important? Why max stamina or magicka as much as possible? Why using lightening and fire staff? Why not frost staff? Why do they want me to wear 1 MA, 1 HA, and the rest LA?.

If your not asking these questions as you go along and finding the answers to them, then you basically clone a build without understanding anything about it. And i think that is where many people fail when they try to follow a meta. They are just assuming meta means "press 1 for godmode"

Just using a build as a rough guide, they are forced to ask and answer those important questions and learn the character they are playing.

Waffennacht

Practice makes perfect as long as you don't practice incorrectly

Edit: and OP, just fyi, there's no such thing as "casual" PvP.

MaleAmazon

I think you need to ask yourself the how and the why as you go a long. Why is penetration important? Why max stamina or magicka as much as possible? Why using lightening and fire staff? Why not frost staff? Why do they want me to wear 1 MA, 1 HA, and the rest LA?.

This. So much this.

I remember when I started playing ESO and people talked about using 3 types of armor. I simply didn´t get why. Why use several types of armor instead of focusing? Of course, when I saw the undaunted passive things fell into place, but I´m still not completely sold on always maxing it (I tend to forego light armor on my stamina builds). Now, I´m sure that someone would just have answered if I asked, but there´s a thick atmosphere in the community of assuming people know stuff, and well, let´s kick them if they don´t. If I had mixed armor without having leveled the passive, that would have been a good example of following the meta without understanding it. (Ofc it´s good to mix armor when levelling for other reasons.)

Also old information can be outdated or even initially based on misinformation.

But the major problem is that the in-game info is woefully lacking, and it is hard to find easily understood information.

Linaleah

MaleAmazon wrote: »

That's why I never look at any builds, until something about those look familiar. You are right, it doesn't make any sense to look at certain builds, until you tried it yourself, people tend to be annoyingly general about the "how-to". It's lerarning by doing...

This also has the beneficial side effect of giving you the knowledge of why stuff works, so you dont become totally lost every time the game is balance patched...


Also, the DPS people post are IMO doubtful at best. Theres a heck of a difference between the skills and the playstyle you have when playing versus mobs, PvE bosses and PvP... yeah I can nuke a trash pull for 100k DPS, but in PvP snipespamming is sometimes the best option for me, simply because of the range...

I have personaly experienced people hitting 50k+dps on a movement heavy fights. I wondered if maybe my combat metrics were glitching out, but no... they were not. for me its just... about as achievable as the kind of speed professional Star Craft players build their bases and deploy troops. some people are very VERY good. some.

however. they are exception. not the rule. for most people, its not doable. which is why majority of the game is tuned to be doable under 10k dps. that includes soloing at least some of the group dungeons on normal btw.

the problem with this game is not only that it doesn't go out of its way to help you understand it. it also relies on the kind of execution that is beyond reach of a LOT of players. even with practice and following meta builds etc etc. the good thing is that that kind of mastery is needed in very small minority of content. even most vet dungeons do not require anywhere near it. just particularly challenging achievements/hardmodes mostly in DLC group content.