mb10 wrote: »

Can a dev give us a reply with what they're thinking and planning atm?

Or is that too much to ask for at this stage? Lol. Communication. Takes 2 mins to quickly type something to keep us in the loop.

Just looking at this mess in general, I doubt there's any planning or thinking involved.

Here's a BUFF I propose that is tailored to the DEVS here....
I call it; "Minor Understanding". A developer must have actually played the game on a Warden and show via community response that they have an understanding of the basics of the class, at the very least.

Waffennacht wrote: »

LanceFoxMcCloud wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Can a dev give us a reply with what they're thinking and planning atm?

Or is that too much to ask for at this stage? Lol. Communication. Takes 2 mins to quickly type something to keep us in the loop.

Just looking at this mess in general, I doubt there's any planning or thinking involved.

Here's a BUFF I propose that is tailored to the DEVS here....
I call it; "Minor Understanding". A developer must have actually played the game on a Warden and show via community response that they have an understanding of the basics of the class, at the very least.

I'm sure they do. Just not at the PvP top end.

I.e. why pigeons prob got nerfed. Against the majority of the player base, it destroyed them - they don't know how to deal with things. Against the best players it was manageable. So now it's dodgeable, makes the majority happy, but makes it worthless against top tier players.

The Racer nerf was needed tho, since it completely wrecks medium armor builds. And we wouldn't want to upset the most played class in medium now, do we?

xbobx wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

If warden DPS without bear ult was on par as other mag builds without ultimate, the bear would do exactly that - made warden DPS superior in single target in situation that allow for it. Speaks a lot that the issue is not related to it at all.

Except warden single target DPS isn't superior with the bear. I'm not sure why you even comment on magicka warden DPS when you only play tank. Actually playing the class would help you realize its shortcomings.

Do you have problem understanding? Warden bear is superior single target ultimate. EVERYTHING ELSE on warden is inferior thats why it underperforms. Bear is literally the only thing that is working properly (balance wise) on that class. And I dont play tank at all...

while my characters are in no way meta with all the elite gear, for comparison purposes, my nb's execute hits for about 28-30k when crit. The bears execute hits for about 60k+.

its normal is about 30k+ when not in execute phase and considering how fast warden can gain ult. its pretty good.

From my history with MMOs, players never ever take in account the damage the pet does. Makes me wonder if this is part of the reason we get no buffs on our main bar skills.

also, utitlity. Warden has some of the best utility being able to switch from DD to group defensive with a few gear changes. Again, in every mmo that is not something players can see.

I look at conversations when it comes to healing. All your hear is templars have better heals, can heal for more, but wardens skills help groups take less damage so you dont have to heal as much. Again something many players do not comprehend.

1. The bear damage would be fine if the rest of the abilities did more damage. The problem is, even with the bear hitting for 30-60k (single target damage, mind you, as wardens cannot use an AOE ult alongside the bear), the class still parses less than the others.

2. DPS wardens have zero utility. They have 4 damage skills which provide nothing other than damage. No self buffs, no group buffs, no debuffs. Just damage. If you swap out these DPS skills for utility skills (a compromise no other class needs to make as their DPS skills have utility), you lose a ton of DPS, making a weak class even weaker.

mb10 wrote: »

Can a dev give us a reply with what they're thinking and planning atm?

Or is that too much to ask for at this stage? Lol. Communication. Takes 2 mins to quickly type something to keep us in the loop.

We'll gef a generic response at the end of the PTS cycle, like always.

Wrobel's response in warden threads always goes like this:

"Thank you for the feedback. We take what you have to say very seriously. We understand that the warden class is underperforming in some areas and we are working hard to improve class balance as a whole"

Cue 12 months of no changes to the warden...

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

LanceFoxMcCloud wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Can a dev give us a reply with what they're thinking and planning atm?

Or is that too much to ask for at this stage? Lol. Communication. Takes 2 mins to quickly type something to keep us in the loop.

Just looking at this mess in general, I doubt there's any planning or thinking involved.

Here's a BUFF I propose that is tailored to the DEVS here....
I call it; "Minor Understanding". A developer must have actually played the game on a Warden and show via community response that they have an understanding of the basics of the class, at the very least.

I'm sure they do. Just not at the PvP top end.

I.e. why pigeons prob got nerfed. Against the majority of the player base, it destroyed them - they don't know how to deal with things. Against the best players it was manageable. So now it's dodgeable, makes the majority happy, but makes it worthless against top tier players.

You think they play it in PvE? I guarantee they've never even done a DPS test on a dummy with magicka warden (or else they would have noticed how underpowered it is a year ago).

I think they hit 15k dps and said, "see it's good!"

Vaoh wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

You know how to fix shimmering shield?

this morph doesn't give you back magicka

When crystalize slab still will.

Don't nerf the skill as a whole, nerf the morph

So basically be a Wrobel and nerf the favored morph to make the other more appealing, while solving none of the issues at hand.... aka Crystal Frags treatment.

Please no lol.

Cost is getting increase by quite a lot. Shimmering Shield is still too strong but only because OP Stam Wardens use it for huge defense vs projectiles and Major Heroism. It’s better to scale Crystallized Shield (+morphs) off Max Magicka so Stam builds don’t benefit so much from the defensive component, which is a damage shield.

I agree, just taking away the magicka return isn’t really enough because the other morph is a little meh. I only used it on my Warden just to level it but that’s it.

They could also increase the damage of the other morph to make it more viable as a choice. Wardens needs some reworks and buffs before they nerf anymore things.

I do not understand the design philosophy into Warden releasing that the class was going to be nerfed and what we have now is going to be problematic.

I think Animal Companions should change to Animal Spirits, it would give Warden a secured traditional Warden identity; it should invoke the spirits of animals instead of a silly pet line.

Shalks is a great skill, but removing the debuffs from it is not going to help the balance issues as many stated; Shalks in itself is not overpowered, it's when used with Dirpbreaker that it becomes a problem.

Keep the stun and add a secondary wave that double dip for half the damage, only needing to land it once to get the secondary effect.

As far as Cliff Racers, you could add a Scream to Screaming Cliff Racer so it does Minor Maim, appropriate thematically with Warden already, in its entire travel path. Cast it and the same thing Screams till it hits it target..

"Invoke a Cliff Racer to Glide Towards the enemy letting go a Mournful Scream that does some minor effect within its flight trajectory till it reaches its target" (wordy, but I wanted to get my point across.)

Cutting Dive, Cutting Dive does not Cut nor does it dive, it just sales in the wind for Physical Damage and has absolutely no use on my bar. It could just do a cutting dive that does three decent size ticks of damage instead of one big one.

"Invoke a Cliff Racer to dive bomb the enemy, dealing X damage 3 consecutive times, damage increases for X% each time."

I dont particularly like the fact that Warden bursts insanely awesome while it's pressure potential is not that great for Stamina aside from Permafrost.

I'll never use that bear unless I invoke it as a spirit that allows me to beat the crap out of people and turns me into a Juggernaught or Berserker; Sorcs can keep pets.

.

Finally got some time to play around on the PTS, and wanted to give my thoughts on some of these skill changes.

Arctic Wind:
This chapter bumps the initial heal of Arctic Wind from 10% max health to 12% max health. This, however, is outclassed by the self-heals possessed by other classes which are ostenisbly designed to provide self-sustain for tanks. For instance, Nightblades, come Summerset, will have a 32% max health heal. Sorcerers have a 35% max health heal from their Clannfear. Dragon Knights heal from using their ultimates as well as either morph of dragon blood.

Why not considering changing the skill to something like 15% max health up-front heal, 15% max health over-time heal? That would bring it closer inline with what numerous other classes have, yet still at a lower value and distributed differently (since half the heal requires 10 seconds), which allows us to justify the ability morphs which improve it.

Without further intervention, I feel like this skill is in a bit of an identity crisis at the moment: Seeing as Nightblades now have a stronger heal like this, and seeing as Arctic Wind has only received a little attention, why ever run this vs. the magicka spores skill? The only difference is having to aim the spores, and many boss fights have a tank facing the group to keep the boss from using cleave attacks. The spores cost about the same, heal for potentially as much, heal potentially more targets, benefit from the green balance passives of proccing minor toughness, and also improve the group's sustain via Minor stam/magicka regen buffs.

Dive:
I love that this skill has been given some love in this Chapter! The projectile travel speed increase definitely makes using the skill feel smoother and more impactful.

That being said, I would definitely still like to see the stamina morph, Cutting Dive, have a secondary effect, rather than just converting it to use stamina/weapon damage/weapon crit. Unless I am mistaken, every other Class stamina morph includes some other secondary effect attached to it. Killer's Blade heals a nightblade if the target dies within a couple of seconds. Biting Jabs increases crit chance. Hurricane increases in size and deals more damage the longer it has been active. Venomous Claw increases in damage the longer the DoT ticks. The magicka morph, Screaming Cliff Racer, deals more damage the further the projectile travels. It is really unusual that Cutting Dive is the odd man out when it comes to ability morphs! And it is a particularly glaring oversight in light of the change some time ago to make the skill dodgeable (which, admittedly, was a great design decision for balance, since it now has more counterplay). Give it a DoT component, have it apply a minor debuff, really anything would, I think, make it align with other stamina morphs and make a lot of folks happier with it.

Scorch:
I'm actually not really opposed to the distribution of the debuffs with the latest changes to this ability. Each morph now debuffs the resistance which applies to its damage type, and the duration reduction can be justified because 1) you should be casting this skill on cooldown for the damage and 2) it is possibly the only way to apply these Major buffs to groups of enemies (that I know of, anyway... could certainly be wrong). However, this change does impact the skill's usefulness to the group as a whole, particularly in PvP, where the ability for stamdens to help debuff enemies so that bombers can better kill them is quite useful for group play.

Overall, I think the Warden is still in a good position, especially for PvP. Their group utility took a hit with the changes to Scorch/Subterranean Assault, but who knows, maybe it will encourage more magdens (I can already think of several good uses for dedicated magdens in group play). Their single target got some love with Cliff Racer, as the skill feels more responsive. Really my only concerns are some skills not adhering to the same kind of conventions set by other skills/morphs, and some loss-of-identity due to changes made to OTHER classes this time around.

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Well since the Warden is being added to the Crown Store they should care and communicate, as they are adding an under performing class to the Crown Store.
If they expect the class to sell for crowns they need to make it worth choosing over the other classes that you get for FREE.

They've been selling the class for 12 months already as a part of Morrowind. They haven't given a single *** about it. People don't know how much it sucks when they're buying Morrowind. When they level one up and realize how useless it is, it's too late to get your money back.

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Well since the Warden is being added to the Crown Store they should care and communicate, as they are adding an under performing class to the Crown Store.
If they expect the class to sell for crowns they need to make it worth choosing over the other classes that you get for FREE.

They've been selling the class for 12 months already as a part of Morrowind. They haven't given a single *** about it. People don't know how much it sucks when they're buying Morrowind. When they level one up and realize how useless it is, it's too late to get your money back.

Yes but it came included with Morrowind, now its being sold separately, what im saying is why would people choose to pay crowns for just the class in its current state (expect if for the fun factor). When the other classes are better (mainly in regards to DPS)

New players won't know that. ZOS is banking on deception here to make money. They rope people in with an "exciting" new class. Why fix a class when you can make money off of it in its current state?

..

Ralamil wrote: »

Arctic Wind:
why ever run this vs. the magicka spores skill? The only difference is having to aim the spores, and many boss fights have a tank facing the group to keep the boss from using cleave attacks. The spores cost about the same, heal for potentially as much, heal potentially more targets, benefit from the green balance passives of proccing minor toughness, and also improve the group's sustain via Minor stam/magicka regen buffs.

- AoE 30% slow around you
- Proc Chilled (Minor Maim) and root
- Any heal proc's Minor Toughness, even Vigor. You are thinking of proc'ing Nature's Gift passive (250 of your lowest resource when you heal and alley when using a Nature skill). You're wasting your time trying to proc this with anything beside Vines, Grasp, or Forest.

Relevant to pvp: the bear is oonly strong in duels. It gets stuck on varying levels of terrain (i.e. in battlegrounds/ keeps and towers in cyrodiil). Additionally, slotting it on both bars is just a death sentence. You need that ultimate heal for your group or northern storm for major protection. A ball group inside a permafrost is just insanity. No way will the bear ever be good enough to replace that.

Pve: the bear needs to be AUTO summon once it dies with a cooldown that is respective.

When a class lacks good damaging abilities... it hurts mag much more than stam because while mag lives or dies by the class abilities stam can just use the class for buffs and utility while using weapon abilities for damage... direct result of the one tree for dps, one for healing, one for tanking approach... if this is the plan for all classes this is gonna end poorly

LanceFoxMcCloud wrote: »

@ZOS_Wrobel this is what you are quoted saying exactly one year ago, tomorrow.

"Wrobel: Well this is cheesy, but I'm most proud of the team that created the Warden. This class had the greatest level of collaboration that I've seen from the team and the fusion between art and gameplay disciplines has led to something amazing. It's also great to see industry veterans accepting and mentoring newer members of the team. I'm proud to see how far we've come, and excited to see where we go from here."

So we've now seen where "you went" and I just gotta ask, what happened?!?! Nothing exciting like you claimed/hoped, that's for sure.

When will you start making good on your word to make this class something viable to actually play the game with?

The disarray you've left us Magdens in has relegated us to matt farmers at best.

You have no shortage of very viable and well thought out suggestions on how to fix this absolute mess, yet still no action has been seen from you FOR A YEAR.

I almost get the feeling from your lack of participation and any acknowledgement on this pressing matter, that you simply don't care what we the players, the ones who have actually tried to make this class work, have to say.

Why have a feedback thread if you are not going to seriously consider what the players are reporting?...

This genuinely concerns me, not just from a players perspective, but also from a business standpoint.

Where I got Wrobels quote;
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26037

He's made multiple posts over the past year promising changes to the warden. They've all been broken promises though. ZOS has sbown they don't care about this class and the customers who paid for it.

LanceFoxMcCloud wrote: »

So many Stamdens chiming in, yet so very few Magdens.... speaks volumes about the current dismal state of this class.

I would say this is more due to the fact that as a whole most people here are PvPers. Any form of PvE based suggestion is going to get overly scrutinized and dissected by the PvP group.

Warden is the worst class in regards to PvE vs PvP balance. PvE side both are lagging behind (although Stam isn't that far behind) and in PvP Stamina is heralded as god-tier by the unskilled players and a nuisance at best by those skilled/competent enough to dodge the burst.

Until balance as a whole is separated fully between PvP and PvE, I don't ever see magden getting fixed at all.

We can all give suggestions and ideas forever. But a year of nothing feels like we're shouting into the wind at this point.