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PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknight Balance
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BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Abysswarrior45 wrote: »stam whip = stam dk fix
I would call it a very good step in the right direction but imo stamdk needs more.0 -
Bodycounter✭✭✭✭Here is my fix for molten weapons and it's morphs.
Molten weapons:
Molten Weapons Instant Area–28 meters
30 seconds 4320 Magicka
Duration: [27 / 28 / 29 / 30] seconds.
Charge you and your allies' weapons with volcanic power to gain Major Sorcery and Major Brutality increasing your Spell Damage and Weapon Damage by 20% for [27 / 28 / 29 / 30] seconds.
Additionally you increase the damage of your light and heavy attcks on low health targets by x% below x% Heath
Note: At one time this skill had a execute functionality like this for light and heavy attacks. I left the target numbers as x percentage because I don't know what the sweet spot would be to balance it. I also believe this group buff is most useful as universal offering both sorcery and brutality.
Morphs
Igneous Weapons:
See above +
Your Magicka heavy attack damage is increased by 40% and your magicka light and heavy attacks apply the burning status effect.
Venomous Weapons:
See above +
Your Stamina heavy attack damage is increased by 40% and your stamina light and heavy attacks
apply the poisoned status effect.
Firstly, i completely agree with you, that Molten Weapons and its morphs would be an optimal way to bring the Dragonknight (Stamina and Magicka) more in line with other classes.
Secondly, i really like your suggestions to this morph, emphazising on light and heavy attacks and the differentation between a magicka and a stamina morph of this ability.
Thirdly, i would recommend one little change: The application of a status effect should be a bit more limited like "Fully-charged heavy attacks or empowered light attacks apply [burning/poisened] status effect". An application on every single kind of attack could be a tad too strong. On top of that: the bonus damage on low health targets could either be via light and heavy attacks (like your suggestions) or via damage over time abilites. The second one would emphazise even more on the playstyle of the Dragonknight.
Edited by Bodycounter on May 3, 2018 10:18AM3 -
Fruity_Ninja✭✭✭✭Here is my fix for molten weapons and it's morphs.
Molten weapons:
Molten Weapons Instant Area–28 meters
30 seconds 4320 Magicka
Duration: [27 / 28 / 29 / 30] seconds.
Charge you and your allies' weapons with volcanic power to gain Major Sorcery and Major Brutality increasing your Spell Damage and Weapon Damage by 20% for [27 / 28 / 29 / 30] seconds.
Additionally you increase the damage of your light and heavy attcks on low health targets by x% below x% Heath
Note: At one time this skill had a execute functionality like this for light and heavy attacks. I left the target numbers as x percentage because I don't know what the sweet spot would be to balance it. I also believe this group buff is most useful as universal offering both sorcery and brutality.
Morphs
Igneous Weapons:
See above +
Your Magicka heavy attack damage is increased by 40% and your magicka light and heavy attacks apply the burning status effect.
Venomous Weapons:
See above +
Your Stamina heavy attack damage is increased by 40% and your stamina light and heavy attacks
apply the poisoned status effect.
Fantastic suggestions actually, and I don't think it sounds too over the top either.
Hopefully ZOS listens to this!3 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭They listen... but I do not think at this point it will go in ... Release is right around the corner... STAM DK's will be have go through another 6 months of being a low end PVP toon in PVP. Your simply better off playing something else ..
I think PVP balance is lower priority hence more people are concerned with PVE balance ... Also if you strengthen the Stam DK to much it starts to impact the Stam Warden who plays a similar playstyle ...PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables0 -
Orimas✭✭
2. Another idea could be increasing the chance to proc burning/poison. Maybe 200% on light/heavy which would give a 60% chance. I added that as a guarantee to proc combustion. I looked at the morphs as a way to improve resource management while maintaining dps not so much as a dps increase.Bodycounter wrote: »Here is my fix for molten weapons and it's morphs.
Molten weapons:
Molten Weapons Instant Area–28 meters
30 seconds 4320 Magicka
Duration: [27 / 28 / 29 / 30] seconds.
Charge you and your allies' weapons with volcanic power to gain Major Sorcery and Major Brutality increasing your Spell Damage and Weapon Damage by 20% for [27 / 28 / 29 / 30] seconds.
Additionally you increase the damage of your light and heavy attcks on low health targets by x% below x% Heath
Note: At one time this skill had a execute functionality like this for light and heavy attacks. I left the target numbers as x percentage because I don't know what the sweet spot would be to balance it. I also believe this group buff is most useful as universal offering both sorcery and brutality.
Morphs
Igneous Weapons:
See above +
Your Magicka heavy attack damage is increased by 40% and your magicka light and heavy attacks apply the burning status effect.
Venomous Weapons:
See above +
Your Stamina heavy attack damage is increased by 40% and your stamina light and heavy attacks
apply the poisoned status effect.
Firstly, i completely agree with you, that Molten Weapons and its morphs would be an optimal way to bring the Dragonknight (Stamina and Magicka) more in line with other classes.
Secondly, i really like your suggestions to this morph, emphazising on light and heavy attacks and the differentation between a magicka and a stamina morph of this ability.
Thirdly, i would recommend one little change: The application of a status effect should be a bit more limited like "Fully-charged heavy attacks or empowered light attacks apply [burning/poisened] status effect". An application on every single kind of attack could be a tad too strong. On top of that: the bonus damage on low health targets could either be via light and heavy attacks (like your suggestions) or via damage over time abilites. The second one would emphazise even more on the playstyle of the Dragonknight.
3.I was taking a look at the bloodthirsty trait on jewelry when i added the execute. They could just add something like that. One bloodthirsty trait increases your damage on targets below 25% by 20%. So i wouldn't think that an execute that is the equivalent of one bloodthirsty ring would be too overpowered.Edited by Orimas on May 3, 2018 7:02PM0 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@zParallaxz
Cut him some slack here's clearly new here; I mean it isn't like that exact comment or close wasn't said during Thieves guild, DB Hood, clockwork city,etc.
This is the same old routine and months down the line we'll be back here on the PTS again screaming from the top of our lungs only to have it be heard by no one.不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell3 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Soul_Demon wrote: »I want wing immunity to last 4 seconds or as long as the ability lasts but it needs to be stamina and cost around 2500-3500 or the same exact costs as the magicka one just with it costing stamina instead. Reasoning is it'll remove one of the counters to Mag DK if it remains magicka i.e roots/snares.
Translation: I want to be strong, but not you, you stay weak. Remember stamDK only dipped below MDK a couple of patches ago. (Last patch?) 7th carried heavily, with an effective 1k HoT if outnumbered.
You are also shooting yourself in the foot, losing stam for other things, where mag is better for both DKs for utility.
Why would someone ever suggest to simply "take" something from mag- and give it to stam players? What kind of sense is that at all. If you need something to plug a problem you are having asking for skills to be 'taken' from one side of the spectrum hardly achieves that. Leave the mag skills alone, ask for some morphs maybe but don't rob from one side to fill gaps on the other.
Yeah that's my point. There are more than enough "free slots" on a do to be improved, after nerfing wings to death making the morph that everyone has been asking for, (and can benefit both sides if mag, a la cloak, purge etc) stam only would be a kick in the nuts.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
zParallaxz✭✭✭✭✭Soul_Demon wrote: »I want wing immunity to last 4 seconds or as long as the ability lasts but it needs to be stamina and cost around 2500-3500 or the same exact costs as the magicka one just with it costing stamina instead. Reasoning is it'll remove one of the counters to Mag DK if it remains magicka i.e roots/snares.
Translation: I want to be strong, but not you, you stay weak. Remember stamDK only dipped below MDK a couple of patches ago. (Last patch?) 7th carried heavily, with an effective 1k HoT if outnumbered.
You are also shooting yourself in the foot, losing stam for other things, where mag is better for both DKs for utility.
Why would someone ever suggest to simply "take" something from mag- and give it to stam players? What kind of sense is that at all. If you need something to plug a problem you are having asking for skills to be 'taken' from one side of the spectrum hardly achieves that. Leave the mag skills alone, ask for some morphs maybe but don't rob from one side to fill gaps on the other.
Yeah that's my point. There are more than enough "free slots" on a do to be improved, after nerfing wings to death making the morph that everyone has been asking for, (and can benefit both sides if mag, a la cloak, purge etc) stam only would be a kick in the nuts.
Yeah I just realize, what mag spammable utility move does magdk have that can completely stop damage or nullify all effects.1 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Am I reading that mDk's sustain will be "better" than stam because we have more chances of procs...i.e. more fire based skills therefore more junk to proc off of? That should be a good thing in theory, no?
Of course more sustain is good, just the way it's implemented makes it worse than on paper in PvP.
RNG chance. Doesn't work on shields. Doesn't work on Dummer for mag. Doesn't work on cloaked enemies because dot suppression.
Use BSW to counter Dunmer passive. DK is already pretty powerful and if build properly can sustain just fine. This change is supposed to help you out a bit not supposed to fix all your problems. ZoS's way of balancing DK is to try and make them use more sustain sets which doesn't always work.Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info1 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There won't be any more DK changes and everyone here knows it. This is it.
They are already very powerful and just got buffed. They don't need it. Some stam DK love would be nice thoughFlawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info4 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭The best change they made was buffing fragmented shield.
I wish I could say the same about reflective plate but I swear they will not add snare immunity to it.Edited by Anti_Virus on May 5, 2018 1:48AMPower Wealth And Influence.0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »The best change they made was buffing fragmented shield.
I wish I could say the same about reflected plate but I swear they will not add snare immunity to it.
Buffing... Its still a nerf over igneous before, smaller shield an 1s less.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
ezio45✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I hate the saying nerf classes but something needs to done about heavy armor dks in pvp, there a nightmare
not even damage the just keep you perma stunned foreverEdited by ezio45 on May 5, 2018 6:58AM2 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I hate the saying nerf classes but something needs to done about heavy armor dks in pvp, there a nightmare
not even damage the just keep you perma stunned forever
Yep, that something is L2P
I kid of course, but this is not DK alone issue, and can be helped. Immunities exist. And sorcs/NBs can stun you in similarly abusive ways.
I will admit root into fossilize the second they roll is funny, since then by the time they break free, fossilze will root them again. 3s of them burning stam and just out of it.Edited by ak_pvp on May 5, 2018 6:27PMMagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭I hate the saying nerf classes but something needs to done about heavy armor dks in pvp, there a nightmare
not even damage the just keep you perma stunned forever
And NBs do it a lot better than any DKs can do. NB stuns are much more efficient and much deadlier.
And will we get to see combustion passive to not dependent on status effect and maybe elder dragon passive overhaul into something useful? Even though chances are low.Edited by IZZEFlameLash on May 5, 2018 1:05PMImperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel3 -
Abysswarrior45✭✭✭✭I hate the saying nerf classes but something needs to done about heavy armor dks in pvp, there a nightmare
not even damage the just keep you perma stunned forever
Yep, that something is L2P
Immunities exist. And sorcs/NBs can stun you in similarly abusive ways.
I will admit root into fossilize the second they roll is funny, since then by the time they break free, fossilze will root them again. 3s of them burning stam and just out of it.
Except if you use the unchained passive you can get a free shuffle saving you from having to roll a second time. Tbh though, sorcs hard cc is arguably better than fossilize because of its range and the fact sorc has far more burst potential. Then theres encase = talons. Fear is arguably better too for the debuff it applies to its targets. The only class that can't compete with mag dk when it comes to CC potential is templar, but templars have strengths in other areas to make up for it.3 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Abysswarrior45 wrote: »I hate the saying nerf classes but something needs to done about heavy armor dks in pvp, there a nightmare
not even damage the just keep you perma stunned forever
Yep, that something is L2P
Immunities exist. And sorcs/NBs can stun you in similarly abusive ways.
I will admit root into fossilize the second they roll is funny, since then by the time they break free, fossilze will root them again. 3s of them burning stam and just out of it.
Except if you use the unchained passive you can get a free shuffle saving you from having to roll a second time. Tbh though, sorcs hard cc is arguably better than fossilize because of its range and the fact sorc has far more burst potential. Then theres encase = talons. Fear is arguably better too for the debuff it applies to its targets. The only class that can't compete with mag dk when it comes to CC potential is templar, but templars have strengths in other areas to make up for it.
That is pretty much my point, 2 other classes have comparable CC, warden has talons, and next patch everyone gets a hard CC that is unblockable, its effectiveness with the time to activate is unknown, but it will be good in BGs. As for shuffle casting, I suppose it would work, but its only limited specs and still a stam drain and a moment where they can't attack either way.
I really don't know what the point of DK in PvP is, its an ok performing class, with great feel, but it does nothing best.
CCing, good, but nope. Burst, potentially high, but nope. Healing, good solo, but nope. Defense, worst active defense, and out rawtanked by templar (comparable) or warden.(Much better) Best at finishing off? Nope, Group support? Talons is outdone by riposte and encase, can't bomb, healing AoE is small, no negate.
DK is just ok, and that means it is poor.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.3 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Just dropping this here, we have has the wings conversation to death, so may as well bring back a discussion from the whip nerfs of the past.
@ZOS_Wrobel Power lash is was too easily avoidable now. First by immunities/range so the cc won't get you, and then by the 3 gcds it takes to hit, you can avoid the setup lash AND the actual one, so 3 easy ways to avoid. Then compare to POTL, where the setups can be dodged, but not the main burst, or frags and merciless, where it can't be stopped from proccing before, but the actual ability can be dodged. The ability also has a cooldown, so it can't be made up for as easily.
Since you won't make it undodgable again, why not make it proc of CC straight away, rather than hitting a set up lash first. That way it can still be evaded before by not being CC'd, and dodged, but will actually hit on a hard CC (Which is less than every 7s, similar to POTLs length)
This can be done by making it so DK CCs automatically apply offbalance, possibly by way of a passive, maybe elder dragon, giving DKs more group support by giving adds the extra 10% exploiter, and making PvE use of lash stay the same. Or it can be changed so lash procs instantly on immobilized enemies. [Alternatively you could keep lash on offbalance, and add lash on CC, again keeping PvE the same during offbalance phases]
Both cases, lash itself wouldn't set offbalance, but would work much more reliably whilst maintaining counters and acting as the defacto finisher of the class.
If the first choice is taken, and DK sets offbalance via normal CC, then stamDK can synergise with the truth set really well too. It'd also be a way to carry on the legacy of the removed old support function of shattering rocks that some DKs used for group support.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.2 -
Riggsy✭✭✭✭I hate the saying nerf classes but something needs to done about heavy armor dks in pvp, there a nightmare
not even damage the just keep you perma stunned forever
For Christ sake, can you people please specify you're talking MAG Dk. Its comments like this that are misguided, Stam Dks are not perma stunning you in PVP.
This thread suffers from people b'ing and moaning about DKs without narrowing down that they mean stam or mag. Get it right people instead of making blanket indictments.MMAGA - We Made Medium Armor Great AgainEvasion: Casting this ability and its morphs now requires that you wear 5 pieces of Medium Armor.
Woe Biden - Mule
Donald Thump - Mule
M'aiq Pence - Mule6 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Too keep in the theme of nerfing cheap heals that tanks use, we should increase the cost of burning embers to that of Force Pulse
Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info0 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well they will do nothing to the Stam DK ... If you want to play a brawler type PVP toon play a stam warden.... Its sad that they essentially took the brawler aspect of Stam DK and drastically made it weaker....
They are aware of the issues of Stam DK in PVP. They now want the DK to perform basically as a tank that now needs a pocket healer .... Stam Warden healing power is crazy compared to a DK .... Stam Warden burst damage trumps the Stam DK .
I do not want to see the Warden nerfed ... I want to see the Stam DK given back some of its old utility ...
Edited by Durham on May 6, 2018 6:09PMPVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well they will do nothing to the Stam DK ... If you want to play a brawler type PVP toon play a stam warden.... Its sad that they essentially took the brawler aspect of Stam DK and drastically made it weaker....
They are aware of the issues of Stam DK in PVP. They now want the DK to perform basically as a tank that now needs a pocket healer .... Stam Warden healing power is crazy compared to a DK .... Stam Warden burst damage trumps the Stam DK .
I do not want to see the Warden nerfed ... I want to see the Stam DK given back some of its old utility ...
i think that should be the ingame description for stamdk: Like everyone else just weaker
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Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The whole problem with Stamina DK is that it has lots of utility skills that would make it a strong PvP class but you can't sustain them because almost all of them are Magicka so you're forced to pick only a couple.
There's no reason why Green Dragon Blood shouldn't be based on max Stamina instead of Magicka. MagDK got the change for Coagulated Blood to scale off Max Magicka last year, it's time for StamDK to get the same treatment. The fact that it's a skill which gives Major Endurance but costs Magicka doesn't even make sense.
Green Dragon Blood going off Max Stamina would make StamDK more balanced in PvP against StamWarden which has Soothing Spores which on top of everything else gives the Warden Major Mending when using the heal at under 50% health. StamDK has to cast an expensive Ignious Shield to get Major Mending and because Igneous Shield and Green Dragon Blood both cost Magicka you can't even sustain the two together.
And don't say Green Dragon Blood can't be made to scale off Stamina because of Tanks because ZOS has already said they're working to make all classes capable of tanking and healing and neither StamWarden, Stamplar, or Stamsorc has a heal based off max health. In Dungeons and Trials you have a healer anyways and nobody tanks in PvP any more unless it's just to troll.Edited by Twohothardware on May 6, 2018 8:17PM0 -
Savos_Saren✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I guess I'm going to have to make a complete cheese build with my StamDK. I'm going to hop on to the PTS later today and try Sload with Master's DW... and maybe throw on Gryphon Rider.
If you can't get a lot of power- you might as well go with unmitigated damage.
If you front bar SnB- you can use Reverberating Bash to defile- then swap to you DW bar for your bleed damage.
I'm not sure how ZOS considered that bleeds were a good idea... but they're effective as hell in PVP.Want to enjoy the game more? Try both PvP (crybabies) and PvE (carebears). You'll get a better perspective on everyone's opinion.
PC NA AD
Savos Saren1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Savos_Saren wrote: »I guess I'm going to have to make a complete cheese build with my StamDK. I'm going to hop on to the PTS later today and try Sload with Master's DW... and maybe throw on Gryphon Rider.
If you can't get a lot of power- you might as well go with unmitigated damage.
If you front bar SnB- you can use Reverberating Bash to defile- then swap to you DW bar for your bleed damage.
I'm not sure how ZOS considered that bleeds were a good idea... but they're effective as hell in PVP.
question would be, why not just make that same build on a stamsorc or stam whatever?
you could easily do SnB/dw with crit surge. meanwhile igneous weapons is a pathetic joke.
Agreed on bleeds overperforming though. This whole ''ignores resistances'' thing is ridicilous.Edited by Ragnarock41 on May 7, 2018 3:02PM0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Savos_Saren wrote: »I guess I'm going to have to make a complete cheese build with my StamDK. I'm going to hop on to the PTS later today and try Sload with Master's DW... and maybe throw on Gryphon Rider.
If you can't get a lot of power- you might as well go with unmitigated damage.
If you front bar SnB- you can use Reverberating Bash to defile- then swap to you DW bar for your bleed damage.
I'm not sure how ZOS considered that bleeds were a good idea... but they're effective as hell in PVP.
I just repeat the in game description for stamdks:
like everyone else just worse.
The same spec will perform much better on any other class2