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PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer Balance
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Perforation sound more dangerous for non sorc mages like magden and it would probably end destroying them while “balancing” sorcs like Defile did for several stam classes when it was made to counter magplars... oh wait you said just for caster... that i am ok with
It would actually be weaker against Warden in particular. A Warden would keep a very high uptime on Shimmering Shield vs a Sorc, which absorbs projectiles irrespective of damage. So there's that.
And yes, it's not a target debuff. But a buff only for the caster.
Edited by Maulkin on May 3, 2018 8:54PMEU | PC | AD0 -
_Ahala_✭✭✭✭✭
✭True, I’m mostly worried about stam sorc bleed builds with access to that buff absolutely deleting my magden with no chance for counterplay... but that’s more a magden is weak af problem than a sorc one0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭E
And why would i use that instead of reach?
Worse dmg.
No dot.
Worse passive.
No chance to procc statuseffects.
Way more expensive (if compared to masterreach).
Well for starters if we are going to compare them then it would have to be with reach, not master reach. Master reach implicates gear too so it makes no sense to compare them.
I didnt say that making it dodgeable/blockable and leaving the dmg as is will be the final change or perfect change. But at least it seems like a good starting point to buff the freaking ability and make it worth using but not completely stupid.
But im confused, if the dmg is less than reach (not master reach) then whats all the fuss about suddenly the ability being completely broken? If its less than normal reach then the dmg should be trivial.
It deals ~15% more tooltip dmg than reach but lacks 10% penetration.
It can be compared to masterreach because if reach is used it´s better to go for 5p backbar 5p body + masterstaff.
I wouldn´t think a second about using it if it were dodgeable/blockable. It would be worse than currently on live.
The ability isn´t even that overperforming on pts - unless used vs squishy builds (as in medium armor).
You can say that reach has the advantage of being able to be used with master staff to become stronger but directly comparing them as if master reach is the base ability doesnt make much sense. A lot of people dont even have access to that cause they dont have a master staff. Master staff is supposed to be a unique weapon dropping from "hard" content. If rune cage could just compare it without using a weapon then whats the point of master staff in the first place?
But what if it was a good cc dealing enough dmg so you dont lose pressure by sacrificing a GCD and maybe also having extra buffs/debuffs or some other unique bonus attached to it to compensate for being dodgeable/blockable? Why not consider it then?
So if its overperforming against squishy medium armor builds then it only makes sense that being undodgeable is the issue, no?
I have a master staff and I plan to drop it as soon as this patch hits. Flame reach barely CC’s, you can CC break it mid-air and it’s reflect-able. The knockback on reach doesn’t work on many inclines, so “golfing” people off of a roof or bridge often doesn’t work. The damage on it even with a master staff isn’t that much better than pulse when and if it actually connects.
I also suspect a LOT of Sorcs will either slot mutagen over heal ward or drop Resto entirely for matriarch pets. If sload goes live as-is it’s the only way to survive.0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:
WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.
Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.
I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.
The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).
Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.
NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.
But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.
The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.
Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.
In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).
What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.
...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.
Rune cage on live is actually really good against tanks. How? You force-drop block for a couple of seconds.
I still think major breach on frags should be a thing rather than damage on cage. All of the nightblades want cage to be a DOT so they can just suppress it with cloak. I’d rather see frags hit harder and fracture, and be able to guarantee a hit with cage:
This is the first time I have EVER agreed with you on something. Breach on frags would be nice, and a buff to my sorc lmao.You can animation cancel rune cage and frags, the length of their animations is irrelevant. Waiting for the animation to play out like you suggested just leaves the enemy at least some room to counter play - which is good. You’re contradicting yourself, I am starting to suspect you have an agenda. I play sorc too (hell I’ve played it more than magblade these last 2 months) and I don’t want the pts rune cage on live, because I know it’s bad for balance.
I´m not contradicting myself. You don´t understand what i say.
Currently you force a hit with runecage => frags.
If runecage were to land instantly you could force the same hit to occur with frags => cage. There is literally no difference (apart from cage getting a lot deadlier with overload).
Quote me where i state i want the runecage to hit live. I can hardly contradict myself if i´ve stated about 10 times throughout this topic that i don´t think runecage is balanced.
I have an agenda - i don´t want the live runecage or something resembling it in effectivity - because it´s bad and isn´t competetive to masterreach or even normal reach neither on live nor would it be in summerset.PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:
WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.
Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.
I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.
The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).
Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.
NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.
But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.
The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.
Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.
In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).
What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.
...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.
Sorcs don’t really lack the ability to burst tanky targets on the pts though. When you can 1 shot a 30k hp heavy armor tank you know there’s a problem. Anyone denying that either has an agenda or is delusional.
You can't one shot a tank with 30k HP with an openworld build. NO WAY.
2k mag regen, 900 stam regen and 14k stam. It would work wonders in open world.
People that say shadowrend/necro/shackle doesn’t work open world don’t know what they’re talking about. Magblades have been playing with necro/shackle in open world for months now. What’s the difference between shadowrend or 1 domi? Not a single one.
My point again. People that have no idea what is what when it comes to magicka somehow are destroying on sorc, but I’m sure it’s fine.
People keep destroying in duels with shadowrend buffed by petcurse - try utilizing an uncontrollable pet with ~25m range open world.
The build looses out a lot outnumbered (and becomes outright useless in grp settings) - and i´m stating that bc i´ve actually played shadowrend necro open world a lot on sorc solo and in grp. It´s niche and gets outdone by oder setups.
You wouldn’t use shadowrend open world for the damage, you would use it to proc necro. Not having an active monster set is not something sorcs are new to, I don’t see this obsession with “it either does damage or it doesn’t work” monster sets in Summerset. You don’t have to use it for the damage, you can use it just fine for the 52k mag setup that it offers on frontbar. The build also leaves you with access to streak and dark deal. EDIT: you can also go with Malcom’s approach and swap cage with frags, so you can fit in mines or whatever else. But I’m sure you know that. Point is that the shackle/necro build doesn’t differ much at all from a lich/shackle setup.
You’ve played with necro/shadowrend/ancient grace most likely on live, but comparing that to a shackle setup is not a good idea and you know it. I don’t know where you’re trying to go with this, but I’m telling you from my stats sheet: it works just fine.
I haven’t played the build on live on a sorc, but it works on shieldstack magblade just fine, and that specific playstyle resembles that of a sorc. Saying that shackle/necro is a duel build is simply wrong. It works amazingly on shieldstack magblade, it should work just fine on sorc.Edited by Subversus on May 3, 2018 9:32PM0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:
WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.
Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.
I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.
The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).
Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.
NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.
But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.
The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.
Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.
In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).
What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.
...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.
Rune cage on live is actually really good against tanks. How? You force-drop block for a couple of seconds.
I still think major breach on frags should be a thing rather than damage on cage. All of the nightblades want cage to be a DOT so they can just suppress it with cloak. I’d rather see frags hit harder and fracture, and be able to guarantee a hit with cage:
This is the first time I have EVER agreed with you on something. Breach on frags would be nice, and a buff to my sorc lmao.You can animation cancel rune cage and frags, the length of their animations is irrelevant. Waiting for the animation to play out like you suggested just leaves the enemy at least some room to counter play - which is good. You’re contradicting yourself, I am starting to suspect you have an agenda. I play sorc too (hell I’ve played it more than magblade these last 2 months) and I don’t want the pts rune cage on live, because I know it’s bad for balance.
I´m not contradicting myself. You don´t understand what i say.
Currently you force a hit with runecage => frags.
If runecage were to land instantly you could force the same hit to occur with frags => cage. There is literally no difference (apart from cage getting a lot deadlier with overload).
Quote me where i state i want the runecage to hit live. I can hardly contradict myself if i´ve stated about 10 times throughout this topic that i don´t think runecage is balanced.
I have an agenda - i don´t want the live runecage or something resembling it in effectivity - because it´s bad and isn´t competetive to masterreach or even normal reach neither on live nor would it be in summerset.PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:
WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.
Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.
I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.
The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).
Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.
NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.
But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.
The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.
Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.
In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).
What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.
...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.
Sorcs don’t really lack the ability to burst tanky targets on the pts though. When you can 1 shot a 30k hp heavy armor tank you know there’s a problem. Anyone denying that either has an agenda or is delusional.
You can't one shot a tank with 30k HP with an openworld build. NO WAY.
2k mag regen, 900 stam regen and 14k stam. It would work wonders in open world.
People that say shadowrend/necro/shackle doesn’t work open world don’t know what they’re talking about. Magblades have been playing with necro/shackle in open world for months now. What’s the difference between shadowrend or 1 domi? Not a single one.
My point again. People that have no idea what is what when it comes to magicka somehow are destroying on sorc, but I’m sure it’s fine.
People keep destroying in duels with shadowrend buffed by petcurse - try utilizing an uncontrollable pet with ~25m range open world.
The build looses out a lot outnumbered (and becomes outright useless in grp settings) - and i´m stating that bc i´ve actually played shadowrend necro open world a lot on sorc solo and in grp. It´s niche and gets outdone by oder setups.
You wouldn’t use shadowrend open world for the damage, you would use it to proc necro. Not having an active monster set is not something sorcs are new to, I don’t see this obsession with “it either does damage or it doesn’t work” monster sets in Summerset. You don’t have to use it for the damage, you can use it just fine for the 52k mag setup that it offers on frontbar. The build also leaves you with access to streak and dark deal. EDIT: you can also go with Malcom’s approach and swap cage with frags, so you can fit in mines or whatever else. But I’m sure you know that. Point is that the shackle/necro build doesn’t differ much at all from a lich/shackle setup.
You’ve played with necro/shadowrend/ancient grace most likely on live, but comparing that to a shackle setup is not a good idea and you know it. I don’t know where you’re trying to go with this, but I’m telling you from my stats sheet: it works just fine.
I haven’t played the build on live on a sorc, but it works on shieldstack magblade just fine, and that specific playstyle resembles that of a sorc. Saying that shackle/necro is a duel build is simply wrong. It works amazingly on shieldstack magblade, it should work just fine on sorc.
I disagree here. A magblade can cloak off at will and get resources back and jump right back into the fight.
A sorc running on empty either needs a lich proc or something to keep him in the fight. There’s no vanishing into thin air with low magicka, and streak won’t save you from a Stam Warden spamming a gap closer. You’re always one resource poison from death.
I won’t say your build isn’t viable, I have plenty of 1vX videos of Makkir with shackle/riposte, and the sustain is about the same if built right. But saying ‘my magblade is fine with it’ doesnt Hold up.3 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If I could command matriarch on console, it's something I would consider, but on console, there's no way I would rely on it @Minalan0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:
WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.
Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.
I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.
The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).
Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.
NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.
But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.
The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.
Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.
In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).
What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.
...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.
Rune cage on live is actually really good against tanks. How? You force-drop block for a couple of seconds.
I still think major breach on frags should be a thing rather than damage on cage. All of the nightblades want cage to be a DOT so they can just suppress it with cloak. I’d rather see frags hit harder and fracture, and be able to guarantee a hit with cage:
This is the first time I have EVER agreed with you on something. Breach on frags would be nice, and a buff to my sorc lmao.You can animation cancel rune cage and frags, the length of their animations is irrelevant. Waiting for the animation to play out like you suggested just leaves the enemy at least some room to counter play - which is good. You’re contradicting yourself, I am starting to suspect you have an agenda. I play sorc too (hell I’ve played it more than magblade these last 2 months) and I don’t want the pts rune cage on live, because I know it’s bad for balance.
I´m not contradicting myself. You don´t understand what i say.
Currently you force a hit with runecage => frags.
If runecage were to land instantly you could force the same hit to occur with frags => cage. There is literally no difference (apart from cage getting a lot deadlier with overload).
Quote me where i state i want the runecage to hit live. I can hardly contradict myself if i´ve stated about 10 times throughout this topic that i don´t think runecage is balanced.
I have an agenda - i don´t want the live runecage or something resembling it in effectivity - because it´s bad and isn´t competetive to masterreach or even normal reach neither on live nor would it be in summerset.PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:
WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.
Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.
I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.
The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).
Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.
NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.
But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.
The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.
Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.
In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).
What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.
...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.
Sorcs don’t really lack the ability to burst tanky targets on the pts though. When you can 1 shot a 30k hp heavy armor tank you know there’s a problem. Anyone denying that either has an agenda or is delusional.
You can't one shot a tank with 30k HP with an openworld build. NO WAY.
2k mag regen, 900 stam regen and 14k stam. It would work wonders in open world.
People that say shadowrend/necro/shackle doesn’t work open world don’t know what they’re talking about. Magblades have been playing with necro/shackle in open world for months now. What’s the difference between shadowrend or 1 domi? Not a single one.
My point again. People that have no idea what is what when it comes to magicka somehow are destroying on sorc, but I’m sure it’s fine.
People keep destroying in duels with shadowrend buffed by petcurse - try utilizing an uncontrollable pet with ~25m range open world.
The build looses out a lot outnumbered (and becomes outright useless in grp settings) - and i´m stating that bc i´ve actually played shadowrend necro open world a lot on sorc solo and in grp. It´s niche and gets outdone by oder setups.
You wouldn’t use shadowrend open world for the damage, you would use it to proc necro. Not having an active monster set is not something sorcs are new to, I don’t see this obsession with “it either does damage or it doesn’t work” monster sets in Summerset. You don’t have to use it for the damage, you can use it just fine for the 52k mag setup that it offers on frontbar. The build also leaves you with access to streak and dark deal. EDIT: you can also go with Malcom’s approach and swap cage with frags, so you can fit in mines or whatever else. But I’m sure you know that. Point is that the shackle/necro build doesn’t differ much at all from a lich/shackle setup.
You’ve played with necro/shadowrend/ancient grace most likely on live, but comparing that to a shackle setup is not a good idea and you know it. I don’t know where you’re trying to go with this, but I’m telling you from my stats sheet: it works just fine.
I haven’t played the build on live on a sorc, but it works on shieldstack magblade just fine, and that specific playstyle resembles that of a sorc. Saying that shackle/necro is a duel build is simply wrong. It works amazingly on shieldstack magblade, it should work just fine on sorc.
I disagree here. A magblade can cloak off at will and get resources back and jump right back into the fight.
A sorc running on empty either needs a lich proc or something to keep him in the fight. There’s no vanishing into thin air with low magicka, and streak won’t save you from a Stam Warden spamming a gap closer. You’re always one resource poison from death.
I won’t say your build isn’t viable, I have plenty of 1vX videos of Makkir with shackle/riposte, and the sustain is about the same if built right. But saying ‘my magblade is fine with it’ doesnt Hold up.
I said my magblade is “amazing” with it, not fine, which makes a Sorc the one that’s fine. Streak away when in trouble and dark deal usually does the job for me even if I don’t have a lich proc up.
But yeah, shackle/riposte works on live, I don’t seee why this other setup wouldn’t. If anything it better than riposte in any way except for the maim, but that is the trade off you make for 52k mag and 50k shieldstack I suppose.Edited by Subversus on May 3, 2018 9:48PM0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don’t even know why I care about this to be fair. If you guys want sorc to be buffed into oblivion fine. I’ll play it either way.
I just don’t feel like going through another one of these threads in few months where we’ll beg wrobel to revert that massive nerf he had just done to bring sorc on par with everyone else.0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »If I could command matriarch on console, it's something I would consider, but on console, there's no way I would rely on it @Minalan
What’s the PC command to follow and do nothing but heal-bot on demand?
I suck with pets.
You have to admit that it’d work. Sload? What sload dot. Heal to full...Edited by Minalan on May 3, 2018 10:17PM0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:
WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.
Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.
I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.
The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).
Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.
NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.
But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.
The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.
Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.
In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).
What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.
...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.
Rune cage on live is actually really good against tanks. How? You force-drop block for a couple of seconds.
I still think major breach on frags should be a thing rather than damage on cage. All of the nightblades want cage to be a DOT so they can just suppress it with cloak. I’d rather see frags hit harder and fracture, and be able to guarantee a hit with cage:
sorc vs sorc (the most boring matchup in eso history) .
It's close but I think magplar Vs. magplar is worseMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.2 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »If I could command matriarch on console, it's something I would consider, but on console, there's no way I would rely on it @Minalan
What’s the PC command to follow and do nothing but heal-bot on demand? I suck with pets.
You have to admit that it’d work. Sload? What sload dot. Heal to full...
@Minalan I was all excited, thinking, "hey that's a good idea!...." Then I remembered my matriarch just chasing someone off into the distance while I tried to do something else.
I wish console had a "follow" and "attack" command option. Follow would be it keeps within x range of you using range attacks (or do nothing if it doesn't have such a thing) and attack would be as is. That's a simple of an idea for console I could come up with.0 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »If I could command matriarch on console, it's something I would consider, but on console, there's no way I would rely on it @Minalan
What’s the PC command to follow and do nothing but heal-bot on demand? I suck with pets.
You have to admit that it’d work. Sload? What sload dot. Heal to full...
@Minalan I was all excited, thinking, "hey that's a good idea!...." Then I remembered my matriarch just chasing someone off into the distance while I tried to do something else.
I wish console had a "follow" and "attack" command option. Follow would be it keeps within x range of you using range attacks (or do nothing if it doesn't have such a thing) and attack would be as is. That's a simple of an idea for console I could come up with.
I always thought they should just decrease the leash on Matriarch. It really shouldn't be 5 meters away from you if its meant to be a defensive pet. How you going to defend me from 30 meters on the other side of Allessia bridge?3 -
RoamingRiverElk✭✭✭✭✭I got an idea. I think in the same vain that the counter to Cloak is in the NB skill tree, they should do something with Sorcs against shields.
You know how there is the Shattering Blows CP option for increasing damage against shields? Imagine if there was Minor/Major version of that...
- Minor Perforation: Increase your damage against shields by 15%
- Major Perforation: Increase your damage against shields by 30%
Then imagine if Frags granted the caster with Major Perforation. It's not an Xv1 buff since the target is not getting more damage from everyone, just from that one opponent whom they have to focus and kill first. And it would stop these endless fights between MagSorcs. The key obviously is to not start adding that buff to all skills like they did with Snares but leave it only on the Sorc.
As for Cage it could become, not anti-Sorc but an anti tank mechanic. Change the burst to a DoT and add Minor Breach. Would somewhat help in taking down those tanky foes without being OP against everyone squishy.
12% for Major, 5% for Minor, at maximum.
You know though that it WOULD eventually be added to other classes or sets, if it was given a buff status. And then there's the thing about it buffing sorcs against other Harness Magicka / Dampen Magic using builds, which I don't think should happen.
Also, I think that new buff would just force people to use Harness Magicka and Ball of Lightning even more than now (and maybe a bit more stamina regen, but there's only so much you could add stam regen and still have a viable all-around build that also has enough damage).
I really hate these unavoidable burst mechanics though. The worst of them is CC that goes through block. Things should have counters (more than just shield stacking). Meteor being undodgeable and delayed damage, combined with unblockable (+undodgeable I think?) CC is just horrible design.Edited by RoamingRiverElk on May 3, 2018 11:36PMDalris Aalr - Magicka (Stamina) DK | Dalfish - Magicka Sorc | Dal Aalr - Magicka Warden | Dalrish - Mag/Stam NB | Irana Aalr - PvE Templar0 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:
WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.
Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.
I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.
The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).
Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.
NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.
But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.
The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.
Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.
In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).
What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.
...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.
Sorcs don’t really lack the ability to burst tanky targets on the pts though. When you can 1 shot a 30k hp heavy armor tank you know there’s a problem. Anyone denying that either has an agenda or is delusional.
If its with a meteor i don't see how that's an issue.0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:
WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.
Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.
I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.
The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).
Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.
NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.
But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.
The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.
Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.
In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).
What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.
...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.
Sorcs don’t really lack the ability to burst tanky targets on the pts though. When you can 1 shot a 30k hp heavy armor tank you know there’s a problem. Anyone denying that either has an agenda or is delusional.
If its with a meteor i don't see how that's an issue.
It’s only allowed if a DK or NB does it.
I got deleted by a friend on mine testing a build with an 18K leap. If a sorc did that damage? Hold crap the forums would be flooded with tears.Edited by Minalan on May 4, 2018 6:03AM5 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You wouldn’t use shadowrend open world for the damage, you would use it to proc necro. Not having an active monster set is not something sorcs are new to, I don’t see this obsession with “it either does damage or it doesn’t work” monster sets in Summerset. You don’t have to use it for the damage, you can use it just fine for the 52k mag setup that it offers on frontbar. The build also leaves you with access to streak and dark deal. EDIT: you can also go with Malcom’s approach and swap cage with frags, so you can fit in mines or whatever else. But I’m sure you know that. Point is that the shackle/necro build doesn’t differ much at all from a lich/shackle setup.
Not having an active monsterset is tolerable in 3.3 - it won´t really be in 4.x imo.
Not having a monsterset comes at the benefit of a 2nd fivepiece currently. That´s no longer the case in 4.x - not having universially beneficial monsterset is just a drawback.
I agree that necro shackle isn´t too different from lich shackle - but i think going into next patch lich shackle isn´t a desireable baseline to shoot for.Joy_Division wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:
WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.
Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.
I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.
The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).
Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.
NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.
But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.
The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.
Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.
In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).
What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.
...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.
Rune cage on live is actually really good against tanks. How? You force-drop block for a couple of seconds.
I still think major breach on frags should be a thing rather than damage on cage. All of the nightblades want cage to be a DOT so they can just suppress it with cloak. I’d rather see frags hit harder and fracture, and be able to guarantee a hit with cage:
sorc vs sorc (the most boring matchup in eso history) .
It's close but I think magplar Vs. magplar is worse
Atleast in mplar vs mplar the HP bars moveI don’t even know why I care about this to be fair. If you guys want sorc to be buffed into oblivion fine. I’ll play it either way.
I just don’t feel like going through another one of these threads in few months where we’ll beg wrobel to revert that massive nerf he had just done to bring sorc on par with everyone else.
Well - who are the sorcs saying runecage should make live though?
I don´t even know what you don´t care about because essentially nobody disagrees that runecage is reinforcing an undesireable combat experience.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Beardimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭With cage if they CC immune I assume they get no damage either?
I hate the way the new immunity the skill just doesn't work. With how poor lag is on console anyway it feels clunky. I don't see why it doesn't say this target is immune like when you try to cc a boss.
Might start a seperate thread about that. Put it here as it adds to my hatred of rune cage clunky animation. But as I'm not going reach its my only choice.
Wish they would buff streak instead so can just stick with thatXbox One | EU | EP
Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
1st Emperor of RavenwatchAlts - - for the Lolz
Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master
Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders
Xbox One | NA | EP
Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach3 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭RoamingRiverElk wrote: »I got an idea. I think in the same vain that the counter to Cloak is in the NB skill tree, they should do something with Sorcs against shields.
You know how there is the Shattering Blows CP option for increasing damage against shields? Imagine if there was Minor/Major version of that...
- Minor Perforation: Increase your damage against shields by 15%
- Major Perforation: Increase your damage against shields by 30%
Then imagine if Frags granted the caster with Major Perforation. It's not an Xv1 buff since the target is not getting more damage from everyone, just from that one opponent whom they have to focus and kill first. And it would stop these endless fights between MagSorcs. The key obviously is to not start adding that buff to all skills like they did with Snares but leave it only on the Sorc.
As for Cage it could become, not anti-Sorc but an anti tank mechanic. Change the burst to a DoT and add Minor Breach. Would somewhat help in taking down those tanky foes without being OP against everyone squishy.
12% for Major, 5% for Minor, at maximum.
You know though that it WOULD eventually be added to other classes or sets, if it was given a buff status. And then there's the thing about it buffing sorcs against other Harness Magicka / Dampen Magic using builds, which I don't think should happen.
Also, I think that new buff would just force people to use Harness Magicka and Ball of Lightning even more than now (and maybe a bit more stamina regen, but there's only so much you could add stam regen and still have a viable all-around build that also has enough damage).
I really hate these unavoidable burst mechanics though. The worst of them is CC that goes through block. Things should have counters (more than just shield stacking). Meteor being undodgeable and delayed damage, combined with unblockable (+undodgeable I think?) CC is just horrible design.
I mean numbers would be subjective to testing, I wouldn’t focus too much on that. It’s the general idea that matters.
There’s a great many buffs added to singular skills. From Mangle given by Pulsar, to Minor Breach by PotL, to Magickasteal from Ele Drain etc. So it's not like they can't do the same. And as long as other skills don’t get it, it would be fine.
Adding it to sets would not be a problem because you have to sacrifice something else. No stam build would wear such a set for example, because shieldbreaker is just better. I’d rather do 2.6k HP damage than hit shields for 3K more. And any Mag build would prefer a set that add general stats or overall damage (as opposed to just against shields)
Now, who are these other users of damage shields that Sorc should not have more damage against when hitting their shields? NBs who have superior pressure, CC, burst (currently, on live) and periods of invulnerability with Cloak? DKs that reflect all your projectiles and hardly rely on shields anyway? Wardens that won’t be affected because of Shimmering? Or Templars who rely on heals rather than shields?
I think you’re overestimating the strength of such a buff. Have you ever tried putting 75 CPs into Shattering Blows? It's like 23% extra damage against shields. Try it, then tell me if it feels too strong in PvP. In my experience it doesn't.
As for CC that makes you drop block.... It’s kind of a necessity to balance block builds.I see most tanky builds can deal with it absolutely fine so long as they're not getting pummelled by 5+ people. Even in no-CP.EU | PC | AD0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think you’re overestimating the strength of such a buff. Have you ever tried putting 75 CPs into Shattering Blows? It's like 23% extra damage against shields. Try it, then tell me if it feels too strong in PvP. In my experience it doesn't.
Personally i disagree here.
Going from 0 to 20% shatter CP will let me win most fights that would previously end in a draw.
That´s only on sorc. On other classes it becomes a massacre.Edited by Derra on May 4, 2018 9:23AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think you’re overestimating the strength of such a buff. Have you ever tried putting 75 CPs into Shattering Blows? It's like 23% extra damage against shields. Try it, then tell me if it feels too strong in PvP. In my experience it doesn't.
Personally i disagree here.
Going from 0 to 20% shatter CP will let me win most fights that would previously end in a draw.
That´s only on sorc. On other classes it becomes a massacre.
Is it? Going 20% on Shattering basically means missing 20% from somewhere else. It's in the Mage constellation after all.
Assuming you don't sacrifice your Master-At-Arms, you'll sacrifice either Elemental Expert, or Elfborn or Thaumaturge. So if you subtract the loss from there, you're at best sitting at 10% more damage against shields and less damage when their shields drop.
If it was so strong people would run it. They don't.
But in any case, such a buff would not be one-sided on Sorc fights. Both sides would have it. So if Shattering performs better against Sorcs than other CP passives and you worry the same about a a Perforation buff.... then good, that'd be the point of it; to shorten Sorc vs Sorc fights.
Generally it's only Sorcs and NBs that rely on HP damage shields. So I'm not sure who these other classes are that get massacred.EU | PC | AD0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:
WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.
Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.
I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.
The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).
Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.
NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.
But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.
The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.
Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.
In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).
What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.
...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.
Sorcs don’t really lack the ability to burst tanky targets on the pts though. When you can 1 shot a 30k hp heavy armor tank you know there’s a problem. Anyone denying that either has an agenda or is delusional.
If its with a meteor i don't see how that's an issue.
It’s only allowed if a DK or NB does it.
I got deleted by a friend on mine testing a build with an 18K leap. If a sorc did that damage? Hold crap the forums would be flooded with tears.
What is this unavoidable damage combo from dks and nightblades which hits for the same as fury, curse, meteor, runecage and frags? Please enlighten me.I think you’re overestimating the strength of such a buff. Have you ever tried putting 75 CPs into Shattering Blows? It's like 23% extra damage against shields. Try it, then tell me if it feels too strong in PvP. In my experience it doesn't.
Personally i disagree here.
Going from 0 to 20% shatter CP will let me win most fights that would previously end in a draw.
That´s only on sorc. On other classes it becomes a massacre.
Is it? Going 20% on Shattering basically means missing 20% from somewhere else. It's in the Mage constellation after all.
Assuming you don't sacrifice your Master-At-Arms, you'll sacrifice either Elemental Expert, or Elfborn or Thaumaturge. So if you subtract the loss from there, you're at best sitting at 10% more damage against shields and less damage when their shields drop.
If it was so strong people would run it. They don't.
But in any case, such a buff would not be one-sided on Sorc fights. Both sides would have it. So if Shattering performs better against Sorcs than other CP passives and you worry the same about a a Perforation buff.... then good, that'd be the point of it; to shorten Sorc vs Sorc fights.
Generally it's only Sorcs and NBs that rely on HP damage shields. So I'm not sure who these other classes are that get massacred.
I tested with and without Shattering Blows (on live server with my nb) and that's indeed a difference between day and night. Imo that CP star should be replaced with something completely different.Edited by Ragnaroek93 on May 4, 2018 10:32AMI used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.1 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:
WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.
Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.
I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.
The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).
Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.
NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.
But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.
The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.
Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.
In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).
What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.
...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.
Sorcs don’t really lack the ability to burst tanky targets on the pts though. When you can 1 shot a 30k hp heavy armor tank you know there’s a problem. Anyone denying that either has an agenda or is delusional.
If its with a meteor i don't see how that's an issue.
It’s only allowed if a DK or NB does it.
I got deleted by a friend on mine testing a build with an 18K leap. If a sorc did that damage? Hold crap the forums would be flooded with tears.
What is this unavoidable damage combo from dks and nightblades which hits for the same as fury, curse, meteor, runecage and frags? Please enlighten me.I think you’re overestimating the strength of such a buff. Have you ever tried putting 75 CPs into Shattering Blows? It's like 23% extra damage against shields. Try it, then tell me if it feels too strong in PvP. In my experience it doesn't.
Personally i disagree here.
Going from 0 to 20% shatter CP will let me win most fights that would previously end in a draw.
That´s only on sorc. On other classes it becomes a massacre.
Is it? Going 20% on Shattering basically means missing 20% from somewhere else. It's in the Mage constellation after all.
Assuming you don't sacrifice your Master-At-Arms, you'll sacrifice either Elemental Expert, or Elfborn or Thaumaturge. So if you subtract the loss from there, you're at best sitting at 10% more damage against shields and less damage when their shields drop.
If it was so strong people would run it. They don't.
But in any case, such a buff would not be one-sided on Sorc fights. Both sides would have it. So if Shattering performs better against Sorcs than other CP passives and you worry the same about a a Perforation buff.... then good, that'd be the point of it; to shorten Sorc vs Sorc fights.
Generally it's only Sorcs and NBs that rely on HP damage shields. So I'm not sure who these other classes are that get massacred.
I tested with and without Shattering Blows (on live server with my nb) and that's indeed a difference between day and night. Imo that CP star should be replaced with something completely different.
Foo, embers, draw essence, Foss, leap, whip to finish. Absolute pain to set up, (Foo landing on wrong enemy, leap failing, cc immunity foss bugs) and you gimp your defense heavily going light. But the combo still exists and it is brutal, since essence, foss break, dot tick, Foo and leap hit together, all undodgable.
Nb has fear Incap and Merciless. And fear as broken breaking free as it is means other *** will fit in too.
Sorc is they don't use cage is way too easy to dodge or block nowadays. Frags was decent since it was a surprise CC timed into the combo and the main hit, even though it was telegraphed, unlike the reach spam of today which is sent a little after. (curse>fury>frags>reach, but it depdnds)Edited by ak_pvp on May 4, 2018 10:49AMMagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If it was so strong people would run it. They don't.
That´s a strawman argument though.
It is so strong - it´s not widely used because it´s only of major benefit against 1 out of 5 classes (minor use vs magblade).
You can skip points on critdmg and penetration to go for shielddmg. Most sorcs run less impen and idk when i´ve seen someone using storm armor the last time on a competetive build.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭If it was so strong people would run it. They don't.
That´s a strawman argument though.
It is so strong - it´s not widely used because it´s only of major benefit against 1 out of 5 classes (minor use vs magblade).
You can skip points on critdmg and penetration to go for shielddmg. Most sorcs run less impen and idk when i´ve seen someone using storm armor the last time on a competetive build.
I swap storm armor for mines in BGs when I get a flag carry matchup. Streak doesn’t work and major expedition is quite needed when running with a flag on your shoulders.0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭You wouldn’t use shadowrend open world for the damage, you would use it to proc necro. Not having an active monster set is not something sorcs are new to, I don’t see this obsession with “it either does damage or it doesn’t work” monster sets in Summerset. You don’t have to use it for the damage, you can use it just fine for the 52k mag setup that it offers on frontbar. The build also leaves you with access to streak and dark deal. EDIT: you can also go with Malcom’s approach and swap cage with frags, so you can fit in mines or whatever else. But I’m sure you know that. Point is that the shackle/necro build doesn’t differ much at all from a lich/shackle setup.I don’t even know why I care about this to be fair. If you guys want sorc to be buffed into oblivion fine. I’ll play it either way.
I just don’t feel like going through another one of these threads in few months where we’ll beg wrobel to revert that massive nerf he had just done to bring sorc on par with everyone else.
Well - who are the sorcs saying runecage should make live though?
I don´t even know what you don´t care about because essentially nobody disagrees that runecage is reinforcing an undesireable combat experience.
Yeah I don’t even know why I was arguing with you to begin with. I just realized that whatever change cage gets is better than on live, and if that’s the case then I’m fine.
Only thing I disagree with you on is that lich/shackle won’t be viable in open world next patch.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If it was so strong people would run it. They don't.
That´s a strawman argument though.
It is so strong - it´s not widely used because it´s only of major benefit against 1 out of 5 classes (minor use vs magblade).
You can skip points on critdmg and penetration to go for shielddmg. Most sorcs run less impen and idk when i´ve seen someone using storm armor the last time on a competetive build.
I swap storm armor for mines in BGs when I get a flag carry matchup. Streak doesn’t work and major expedition is quite needed when running with a flag on your shoulders.
Well nonCP isn´t really relevant for discussion about a CP star though
But yeah i´ve used stormarmor there - prefer speedpots these days.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭If it was so strong people would run it. They don't.
That´s a strawman argument though.
It is so strong - it´s not widely used because it´s only of major benefit against 1 out of 5 classes (minor use vs magblade).
You can skip points on critdmg and penetration to go for shielddmg. Most sorcs run less impen and idk when i´ve seen someone using storm armor the last time on a competetive build.
I swap storm armor for mines in BGs when I get a flag carry matchup. Streak doesn’t work and major expedition is quite needed when running with a flag on your shoulders.
Well nonCP isn´t really relevant for discussion about a CP star though
But yeah i´ve used stormarmor there - prefer speedpots these days.
Oh right, didn’t read the pretext hahaha. I’d use speed pots too but I’m too cheap for them, regular mag pots do just fine for me
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Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So can anyone confirm that imbue weapons works with overload light attacks?PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So can anyone confirm that imbue weapons works with overload light attacks?
Yes. It's just questionable whether it's worth it because you can't combine it with Rune Cage.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Why not?PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank0