PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer Balance

Feanor

Subversus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

No RC changes in 4.0.3, I don’t know what to say.

I do: better think of arguments to write in a future thread just like this next pts in a few months when wrobel comes with the nerf hammer. Until then rejoice what all forums sorcs ever wanted: complete and utter dominance, at least in duels and small scale.

I never wanted RC in that form.

Subversus

Feanor wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

No RC changes in 4.0.3, I don’t know what to say.

I do: better think of arguments to write in a future thread just like this next pts in a few months when wrobel comes with the nerf hammer. Until then rejoice what all forums sorcs ever wanted: complete and utter dominance, at least in duels and small scale.

I never wanted RC in that form.

Hahaha!

I’ll play the living *** out of my sorc, I know that’s certain.

Ragnaroek93

Feanor wrote: »

No RC changes in 4.0.3, I don’t know what to say.

Summerset = Quake instagib simulator (without aiming)

Subversus

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

No RC changes in 4.0.3, I don’t know what to say.

Summerset = Quake instagib simulator (without aiming)

Sorc is weak pls buff, nobody will use cage open world

Waffennacht

After several nights of testing various warden builds simulating the PTS....

Definitely sorc is my first choice
Then Templar as I'm not keen on using NB.

The only thing is I want to get some pve achievements done on my sorc...

Hrm, maybe my Stam sorc becomes a reg sorc...

Dunno wtf to do with my Magden, already have two tanks (one a warden)...
He... Um... Can hold onto my Sorc's stuff I suppose

Derra

Feanor wrote: »

No RC changes in 4.0.3, I don’t know what to say.

Well - time to enjoy 3 months of absolute ridiculousness...
...before curse, wrath, frags, streak, hardened ward and liquid lightning will all get nerfed for good measure (but not rune cage mind you).

Feanor

Derra wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

No RC changes in 4.0.3, I don’t know what to say.

Well - time to enjoy 3 months of absolute ridiculousness...
...before curse, wrath, frags, streak, hardened ward and liquid lightning will all get nerfed for good measure (but not rune cage mind you).

@Derra

That’s how it will be sadly. What made me laughing out loud was Gina‘s answer in the other thread (that is now closed) that no class balance changes are planned (or never were to begin with) and all that will be in the last patch is bug fixes and polishing the new skill line.

It really made no sense writing 800+ posts on this thread alone then. It would sure have been nice if they had told us that week 1.

I can’t imagine how they can let this go live. I really can’t. But maybe they’ll try for new changes in the version that goes live. We all know how well that worked last time.

Waffennacht

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

No RC changes in 4.0.3, I don’t know what to say.

Well - time to enjoy 3 months of absolute ridiculousness...
...before curse, wrath, frags, streak, hardened ward and liquid lightning will all get nerfed for good measure (but not rune cage mind you).

@Derra

That’s how it will be sadly. What made me laughing out loud was Gina‘s answer in the other thread (that is now closed) that no class balance changes are planned (or never were to begin with) and all that will be in the last patch is bug fixes and polishing the new skill line.

It really made no sense writing 800+ posts on this thread alone then. It would sure have been nice if they had told us that week 1.

I can’t imagine how they can let this go live. I really can’t. But maybe they’ll try for new changes in the version that goes live. We all know how well that worked last time.

What really gets me, every person that said, "why bother they don't listen because they didn't last time" was proven right.

I use to think that was just being negative... They were just being realistic

Minalan

Subversus wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

No RC changes in 4.0.3, I don’t know what to say.

Summerset = Quake instagib simulator (without aiming)

Sorc is weak pls buff, nobody will use cage open world

Except they’ll nerf frags again or something completely unrelated. The issue is that the devs don’t actually play the PVP game.

Bottom line, I was running cage with @RinaldoGandolphi and @Minno this weekend, both of them were running stamina builds. I called out cage targets in voice chat and EVERYONE I caged died.

“Cage on the Tank DK!” CLANG! BASH! SLICE! WRATH! Dead.

The skill doesn’t really need a buff at all when used correctly. Frags needed the stun back.

Derra

Minalan wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

No RC changes in 4.0.3, I don’t know what to say.

Summerset = Quake instagib simulator (without aiming)

Sorc is weak pls buff, nobody will use cage open world

Except they’ll nerf frags again or something completely unrelated. The issue is that the devs don’t actually play the PVP game.

Bottom line, I was running cage with @RinaldoGandolphi and @Minno this weekend, both of them were running stamina builds. I called out cage targets in voice chat and EVERYONE I caged died.

“Cage on the Tank DK!” CLANG! BASH! SLICE! WRATH! Dead.

The skill doesn’t really need a buff at all when used correctly. Frags needed the stun back.

Same goes for fear/petrify imo - but those skills perform besser when alone which is why i´d argue cage needed a buff in comparison. Just not the one it got.

Oh well. Time to pew pew.

ezio45

will someone explain to me why people think sorcs are so op this patch, not being sarcastic im just not on pts and dont understand it

The only really meaningful changes I see are the ones to runecage and bound armor

Feanor

ezio45 wrote: »

will someone explain to me why people think sorcs are so op this patch, not being sarcastic im just not on pts and dont understand it

The only really meaningful changes I see are the ones to runecage and bound armor

Rune Cage adds 5k unblockable and unavoidable damage to the burst. It’s a huge buff because it limits the counterplay. It’s bad design.

Also, Overload. The light attacks apparently still have the new damage scaling all light attacks have now. If you can force a OL hit with Rune Cage it’s game over. Also not desirable from a balance standpoint.

ezio45

Feanor wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

will someone explain to me why people think sorcs are so op this patch, not being sarcastic im just not on pts and dont understand it

The only really meaningful changes I see are the ones to runecage and bound armor

Rune Cage adds 5k unblockable and unavoidable damage to the burst. It’s a huge buff because it limits the counterplay. It’s bad design.

Also, Overload. The light attacks apparently still have the new damage scaling all light attacks have now. If you can force a OL hit with Rune Cage it’s game over. Also not desirable from a balance standpoint.

So basically the problem is overload does to much damage now? couldnt you currently guarantee a hit with rc? or how has it changed to make it a guaranteed hit?

Beardimus

Sheesh this thread it hectic to catchup on! So in summary, none of the feedback on here as been acted on that right?

PC is go live 21st, is there a PTS update on 14th or is this revision final now?

Feanor

Beardimus wrote: »

Sheesh this thread it hectic to catchup on! So in summary, none of the feedback on here as been acted on that right?

PC is go live 21st, is there a PTS update on 14th or is this revision final now?

There is going to be a 4.0.4 patch next Monday. I don’t think it will have class changes. Gina said as much.

ToRelax

Feanor wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

will someone explain to me why people think sorcs are so op this patch, not being sarcastic im just not on pts and dont understand it

The only really meaningful changes I see are the ones to runecage and bound armor

Rune Cage adds 5k unblockable and unavoidable damage to the burst. It’s a huge buff because it limits the counterplay. It’s bad design.

Also, Overload. The light attacks apparently still have the new damage scaling all light attacks have now. If you can force a OL hit with Rune Cage it’s game over. Also not desirable from a balance standpoint.

Overload never scaled like light attacks. The only problem is empower.

Emma_Overload

I know we disagree on this @Feanor and @Derra , but I don't think there is going to be an OP Sorc meta when Summerset goes live. Even with this extra 5K unavoidable damage, we're still going to be banging our heads against these legions of heavy armor, high health super-potatoes.

Rune Cage may make us more effective against the few suckers still wearing light and medium (which is why @DDuke protests so much), but I don't see it shifting the meta too much in our favor against everyone else. I think the best thing to do is see how the new Rune Cage plays out on live, and THEN debate the pros and cons of a re-work or nerf.

Derra

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I know we disagree on this Feanor and Derra , but I don't think there is going to be an OP Sorc meta when Summerset goes live. Even with this extra 5K unavoidable damage, we're still going to be banging our heads against these legions of heavy armor, high health super-potatoes.

Rune Cage may make us more effective against the few suckers still wearing light and medium (which is why DDuke protests so much), but I don't see it shifting the meta too much in our favor against everyone else. I think the best thing to do is see how the new Rune Cage plays out on live, and THEN debate the pros and cons of a re-work or nerf.

Well - you can see the meta on pts already. Sorc just poopoo on everything that does not reach the HP/defense threshhold to avoid dying to curse fury meteor cage frags. Which is upwards of 27k hp + 3100 impen for the builds i´m playing.

The issue we take is that actual problems seldom get adressed once something goes live. The nerfs hit elsewhere and mostly on skills nobody asked for them.

Edit: Personally i´m always just a tiny bit of dmg short in duels with sorc. Maybe 10 - 15% against competent players that i fail to kill. Runecage + LA changes will more than make up for what i personally need to kill almost anything.

Joy_Division

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I know we disagree on this @Feanor and @Derra , but I don't think there is going to be an OP Sorc meta when Summerset goes live. Even with this extra 5K unavoidable damage, we're still going to be banging our heads against these legions of heavy armor, high health super-potatoes.

Rune Cage may make us more effective against the few suckers still wearing light and medium (which is why @DDuke protests so much), but I don't see it shifting the meta too much in our favor against everyone else. I think the best thing to do is see how the new Rune Cage plays out on live, and THEN debate the pros and cons of a re-work or nerf.

Well, that seems like exactly what's going to happen.

These changes should not have been put on the PTS if ZOS had no intention of reviewing and reevaluating them before Summerset launches

Lord-Otto

Yeah, not convinced of the upcoming Shacklepotence combo. Emulating it, my shields with that combo increase by 11%, which is nice, but damage only a measly 4%. While obliterating sustain. Hardly OP.

Unavoidable damaging Rune Cage is the main buff to sorcs, and it roughly equals a Master Reach combo, and don't forget the nerfed Meteor! We gain a lot utility, and I don't like the approach we're presented, but regarding numbers, it won't change the world.

Sload's, on the other hand...

Ragnaroek93

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Rune Cage may make us more effective against the few suckers still wearing light and medium (which is why @DDuke protests so much), but I don't see it shifting the meta too much in our favor against everyone else. I think the best thing to do is see how the new Rune Cage plays out on live, and THEN debate the pros and cons of a re-work or nerf.

Do I understand this correct, that in your opinion med and light armor builds (outside of sorc because you are playing one rofl) shouldn't be viable in PvP?

Feanor

@Emma_Overload

I thought a bit more about it. I now think it fits very well with ZOS way of design - they want the game to be much easier for new players, and unavoidable damage is a part of that. The power gap between experienced players and new players gets much smaller.

Battlegrounds are going base game. They want the new participants to feel good about themselves in there. In that regard, it’s a consequent way of ensuring it. Just not one that’s good for the game overall.

Maulkin

All I know is, finding bar space for Rune Cage in no-CP PvP is nigh on impossible...

Dark Conversion, the skill that would make way in CP content, is virtually undroppable or RIP sustain. Power Surge is a must, because choosing to run spell power pots over tri-pots is suicide. Resto ult is the difference between life and death in many fights and having it on an overload bar is both glitchy and technically cheating. Your 3 shields are obviously a must, as is Streak/BoL. Same for Curse and your spammable of choice.

That means dropping either Fury or Frags to make space for it. Good luck with that.

Lord-Otto

Maulkin wrote: »

All I know is, finding bar space for Rune Cage in no-CP PvP is nigh on impossible...

Dark Conversion, the skill that would make way in CP content, is virtually undroppable or RIP sustain. Power Surge is a must, because choosing to run spell power pots over tri-pots is suicide. Resto ult is the difference between life and death in many fights and having it on an overload bar is both glitchy and technically cheating. Your 3 shields are obviously a must, as is Streak/BoL. Same for Curse and your spammable of choice.

That means dropping either Fury or Frags to make space for it. Good luck with that.

Drop Surge. Put on one stamina regen glyph on jewelry if needed. Or Absorp Stamina weapon glyph if you can expend the Concussion chance.

Feanor

@Lord-Otto

You‘d need Spell power pots for major sorcery then. I’m too cheap to run these. In @Maulkin bar set up I’d drop Harness - but then I’m not running that now either and have been labeled a self gimping trash already, so what do I know

Beardimus

Maulkin wrote: »

All I know is, finding bar space for Rune Cage in no-CP PvP is nigh on impossible...

Dark Conversion, the skill that would make way in CP content, is virtually undroppable or RIP sustain. Power Surge is a must, because choosing to run spell power pots over tri-pots is suicide. Resto ult is the difference between life and death in many fights and having it on an overload bar is both glitchy and technically cheating. Your 3 shields are obviously a must, as is Streak/BoL. Same for Curse and your spammable of choice.

That means dropping either Fury or Frags to make space for it. Good luck with that.

am with you on that. you have to miss something to run its clunky ass ugly skill.

Lord-Otto

Feanor wrote: »

@Lord-Otto

You‘d need Spell power pots for major sorcery then. I’m too cheap to run these. In @Maulkin bar set up I’d drop Harness - but then I’m not running that now either and have been labeled a self gimping trash already, so what do I know

You can use the PvP potions, purchasable with AP, if you're broke. Harness gives you such a huge edge in magicka fights, especially in no-CP. Wouldn't drop.

Feanor

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Lord-Otto

You‘d need Spell power pots for major sorcery then. I’m too cheap to run these. In @Maulkin bar set up I’d drop Harness - but then I’m not running that now either and have been labeled a self gimping trash already, so what do I know

You can use the PvP potions, purchasable with AP, if you're broke. Harness gives you such a huge edge in magicka fights, especially in no-CP. Wouldn't drop.

Well, I’m not broke (4 Million gold and 15 mill AP banked). It’s just that I dislike shield stacking. I’m special in that regard. The pots are ofc a good solution to the bar space problem.

Murador178

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Yeah, not convinced of the upcoming Shacklepotence combo. Emulating it, my shields with that combo increase by 11%, which is nice, but damage only a measly 4%. While obliterating sustain. Hardly OP.

Unavoidable damaging Rune Cage is the main buff to sorcs, and it roughly equals a Master Reach combo, and don't forget the nerfed Meteor! We gain a lot utility, and I don't like the approach we're presented, but regarding numbers, it won't change the world.

Sload's, on the other hand...

sloads + duroks+defile poisons with max CP in defile - winning every duel with ease - Mutagen+surge wont be enough. U need like 7 twillight heals to go back full hp with the defiles on you.

U wont even need the broken cage u can also light attacks only.
So the build prob synergizes alot better with mag nb.

Lord-Otto

Murador178 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Yeah, not convinced of the upcoming Shacklepotence combo. Emulating it, my shields with that combo increase by 11%, which is nice, but damage only a measly 4%. While obliterating sustain. Hardly OP.

Unavoidable damaging Rune Cage is the main buff to sorcs, and it roughly equals a Master Reach combo, and don't forget the nerfed Meteor! We gain a lot utility, and I don't like the approach we're presented, but regarding numbers, it won't change the world.

Sload's, on the other hand...

sloads + duroks+defile poisons with max CP in defile - winning every duel with ease - Mutagen+surge wont be enough. U need like 7 twillight heals to go back full hp with the defiles on you.

U wont even need the broken cage u can also light attacks only.
So the build prob synergizes alot better with mag nb.

God, sounds dreadful!
(>~<)