PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer Balance

Derra · May 2018

ToRelax wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:

WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.

Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.

I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.

The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).

^This.
Also, Sorc is seriously lacking in access to healing (outside of pets) and alternatives to shields (which are mandatory for pets as well). If we had a dark magic DoT that could trigger blood magic not just on the initial cast but all ticks, it would help with both healing and pressure.

That would be my personal ideal for the skill

Someone make it happen.

I had birthday like 3 months ago...

PhoenixGrey · May 2018

Murador178 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:

WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.

Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.

I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.

The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).

Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.

Derra · May 2018

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:

WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.

Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.

I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.

The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).

Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.

That´s not really true. Sorc burst hits harder than NB or Warden if you push for comparable offensive stats.

The issue with that approach is that magica has a harder time utilizing heavyattacks as part of their sustain because they loose a lot of offensive time due to channeling and are easier to avoid aswell.
Then sorc also has the worst infight sustain out of all magica classes (outside of utilizing harness).

This results in sorc dmg being lower due to the requirement of building a lot around sustain to not become a sitting duck after 3 or 4 rotaions (that are not guaranteed to hit on live).

Also sorc burst is heavily telegraphed backloaded burst whereas nb has frontloaded burst and warden is badly telegraphed.

Murador178 · May 2018

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:

WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.

Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.

I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.

The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).

Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.

NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.

PhoenixGrey · May 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Meta sorc will have tons o pressure.

Meta sorc will have tons o burst

Meta sorc:

monster set: Zaan or Skoria or Craw

Full set options: Caluurion, Sload, or Winterborn

Meta sorc A:

Wrath, Curse, Imbue, Hardened Ward, Pulse/Reach Ult Meteor/Atro/dbos

Surge, Streak/Boundless, Dampen/Absorb, Healing Ward, Cage Ult: Panacea

Cal, Sload, Skoria

Meta sorc B

Wrath, Curse, Blockade, H ward, Reach ult Meteor

Surge, Streak, Healing Ward, Dampen, Cage ult panacea

(Frost staff) Caluurion/Sload, Winterborn, Zaan

Meta Sorc C

Overload build (work in progress?)

Imo

All those builds are lowish magica - with the dmg increases across the board i´d not be too worried about those. They die relatively easy on pts.

People complain about necro shackle + shadowrend or necro pet setups on pts.

Still don´t believe runecage will hit live without change.

Have you fought murador’s pet sorc with Calu and zaan? it has more than enough damage hahahaha

Seriously, stop posting unviable open world builds.

This is like saying, red mountain was hitting hard before in no cp so sorc is awesome.

If u wait through ur zaan proc in open world on a sorc u will get cc'd and bursted to death by a bunch of people. Calu proc will work against you against a wing spammer.

Seriously, pull your head out of your ass and get on the pts and try playing Magicka Sorcerer. You’re out here talking out of your ass while I am wiping the floor with everything non sorc on the pts on a build with 14k stam and 900 stam regen.

The proc build was just an example. Lmfao.

You might be wiping the floor on PTS in a dueling scenario and you might be a very good at it.

I am just saying this does not mean you will wipe everyone off in cyrodil when this patch hits live. Stam classes have a choice , we are stuck with light armor if you want to be effective.

Besides I think most classes will run a little more health next patch. So that extra little bit of unblockable damage from cage which requires you to have a meteor, frag, curse and fury lined up to even be considered effective does not make much difference.

Based on my experience on live, there is no way I m killing a competent player without a meteor + cage, frag, curse combo on a dw setup because the burst ain't there. Without the meteor a typical burst would have a curse + fury + cage + frag. If the burst ain't there you need to buff something

You can't buff curse or curse stacking will demolish players. Can't buff frags because ZOS does not revert changes by principle. Maybe buff fury which will lead to a massive outrage although I personally don't think 20% is a good enough threshold. So you have just rune cage as the most likely candidate. This might tilt the scales a little bit but a 8k tooltip is ok ish.

What would you propose to buff ?
Maybe it can continue being a joke of a class spamming fury in the background. I am not cool with that.

If you ask me did sorc s get a buff? I would still say maybe because it depends on what we will be up against.

Sadly the biggest dmg buff will be on switching to destro.

True. Have to figure out what to slot. I really hope i can somehow fit aegis. Maybe the destro ult or back to force pulse, have to figure that out depending on my mag pool

Subversus · May 2018

Derra wrote: »

One thing i´d like to see of all the NBs that do not play sorc on live yet continue raving about how OP sorc is on pts:

Post constructive feedback.

CAGE OP - plz nerf (even if you make a video of it) is not constructive and if you repeat it a 100 times you come off as someone on an agenda. Especially if you make bow gank videos instakilling people with no chance to fight back and label that as "bowbuilds finally becoming vaible".

What do you think should be changed about cage to make it more desireable than on live - but less broken than on pts?

What do you think should be changed about sorcs to make them more fun and diverse than on live but not broken (because sorc is neither diverse nor particularly fun to play on live nor particularly strong - especially compared to nb)?

How do you think the problem of having overperforming (debateable) 1v1 defense but lacking XvX should be adressed?

I already gave my suggestion to fixing cage: reduce the damage and remove the travel time. If travel time is removed, damage doesn’t really need to be reduced that much imo.

I won’t even be using it on live in cyro though, I’ll stick to master destro builds, but yeah. I would rather not have players that (as you said) are average sorcs/haven’t played sorc on live suddenly start wiping the floor with everything just because rune cage lowers the ceiling of sorc by miles.

Derra · May 2018

Subversus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

One thing i´d like to see of all the NBs that do not play sorc on live yet continue raving about how OP sorc is on pts:

Post constructive feedback.

CAGE OP - plz nerf (even if you make a video of it) is not constructive and if you repeat it a 100 times you come off as someone on an agenda. Especially if you make bow gank videos instakilling people with no chance to fight back and label that as "bowbuilds finally becoming vaible".

What do you think should be changed about cage to make it more desireable than on live - but less broken than on pts?

What do you think should be changed about sorcs to make them more fun and diverse than on live but not broken (because sorc is neither diverse nor particularly fun to play on live nor particularly strong - especially compared to nb)?

How do you think the problem of having overperforming (debateable) 1v1 defense but lacking XvX should be adressed?

I already gave my suggestion to fixing cage: reduce the damage and remove the travel time. If travel time is removed, damage doesn’t really need to be reduced that much imo.

I won’t even be using it on live in cyro though, I’ll stick to master destro builds, but yeah. I would rather not have players that (as you said) are average sorcs/haven’t played sorc on live suddenly start wiping the floor with everything just because rune cage lowers the ceiling of sorc by miles.

Dmg is already lowish considering it has no additional effects like fear or petrify and is only associated to a weak passive.

Traveltime seems rather irrelevant imo - you´re either able to force a hit with frags fired before cage or after. Wouldn´t change anything imo.

So it would come down to dmg being reduced - which would only be relevant if dmg is so low that it´s neglible overall. Resulting in basically the status quo on live.

From my perspective that´s not really constructive bc the ability does not get improved (or so marginally that it makes no difference).
It´s making it as bad as it´s on live but changing something to sell as an alibibuff.

Subversus · May 2018

Derra wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

One thing i´d like to see of all the NBs that do not play sorc on live yet continue raving about how OP sorc is on pts:

Post constructive feedback.

CAGE OP - plz nerf (even if you make a video of it) is not constructive and if you repeat it a 100 times you come off as someone on an agenda. Especially if you make bow gank videos instakilling people with no chance to fight back and label that as "bowbuilds finally becoming vaible".

What do you think should be changed about cage to make it more desireable than on live - but less broken than on pts?

What do you think should be changed about sorcs to make them more fun and diverse than on live but not broken (because sorc is neither diverse nor particularly fun to play on live nor particularly strong - especially compared to nb)?

How do you think the problem of having overperforming (debateable) 1v1 defense but lacking XvX should be adressed?

I already gave my suggestion to fixing cage: reduce the damage and remove the travel time. If travel time is removed, damage doesn’t really need to be reduced that much imo.

I won’t even be using it on live in cyro though, I’ll stick to master destro builds, but yeah. I would rather not have players that (as you said) are average sorcs/haven’t played sorc on live suddenly start wiping the floor with everything just because rune cage lowers the ceiling of sorc by miles.

Dmg is already lowish considering it has no additional effects like fear or petrify and is only associated to a weak passive.

Traveltime seems rather irrelevant imo - you´re either able to force a hit with frags fired before cage or after. Wouldn´t change anything imo.

So it would come down to dmg being reduced - which would only be relevant if dmg is so low that it´s neglible overall. Resulting in basically the status quo on live.

From my perspective that´s not really constructive bc the ability does not get improved (or so marginally that it makes no difference).
It´s making it as bad as it´s on live but changing something to sell as an alibibuff.

Travel time is extremely relevant. If it were instant, you’d have time to dodge the following frags. Seeing as it’s not, by the time cage hits you frags is already in the air, especially if the sorc is at range.

Are you advocating for rune cage to stay as it is then? Because the “no suggestion is good but I have none either” way of thinking is not very constructive either.

PhoenixGrey · May 2018

Murador178 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:

WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.

Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.

I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.

The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).

Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.

NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.

But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.

The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.

PromiscuousNun · May 2018

DPShiro wrote: »

I’m trying to stay informed and partake in meaningful discussions and interesting topics such as this one.
But it’s literally impossible due to the constant and endless whining from some PVP players.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
Can we please have the class balance discussions separated into PVE/PVP next time?

Yep

Been testing pve sorcs on pts and this entire thing here is 90% pvp. I don't mind pvp, but.... trying to see the trees in the forest here

pieratsos · May 2018

Leave the dmg as is. Make the cc dodgeable. Probably blockable to so it actually has a counter.

DDuke · May 2018

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:

WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.

Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.

I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.

The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).

Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.

NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.

But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.

The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.

Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.

In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).

What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.

...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.

Subversus · May 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

Leave the dmg as is. Make the cc dodgeable. Probably blockable to so it actually has a counter.

That would be fine with me balance wise, but sorc needs an undodgeable/unblockable cc, so no.

ezio45 · May 2018

can we get a buff too mages wrath plz, it isnt on par with the other executes, especially nb's

Beardimus · May 2018

DPShiro wrote: »

I’m trying to stay informed and partake in meaningful discussions and interesting topics such as this one.
But it’s literally impossible due to the constant and endless whining from some PVP players.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
Can we please have the class balance discussions separated into PVE/PVP next time?

Good shout. Keeping up with the thread has been hard work.

Subversus · May 2018

DDuke wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:

WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.

Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.

I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.

The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).

Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.

NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.

But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.

The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.

Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.

In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).

What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.

...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.

Sorcs don’t really lack the ability to burst tanky targets on the pts though. When you can 1 shot a 30k hp heavy armor tank you know there’s a problem. Anyone denying that either has an agenda or is delusional.

Derra · May 2018

Subversus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

One thing i´d like to see of all the NBs that do not play sorc on live yet continue raving about how OP sorc is on pts:

Post constructive feedback.

CAGE OP - plz nerf (even if you make a video of it) is not constructive and if you repeat it a 100 times you come off as someone on an agenda. Especially if you make bow gank videos instakilling people with no chance to fight back and label that as "bowbuilds finally becoming vaible".

What do you think should be changed about cage to make it more desireable than on live - but less broken than on pts?

What do you think should be changed about sorcs to make them more fun and diverse than on live but not broken (because sorc is neither diverse nor particularly fun to play on live nor particularly strong - especially compared to nb)?

How do you think the problem of having overperforming (debateable) 1v1 defense but lacking XvX should be adressed?

I already gave my suggestion to fixing cage: reduce the damage and remove the travel time. If travel time is removed, damage doesn’t really need to be reduced that much imo.

I won’t even be using it on live in cyro though, I’ll stick to master destro builds, but yeah. I would rather not have players that (as you said) are average sorcs/haven’t played sorc on live suddenly start wiping the floor with everything just because rune cage lowers the ceiling of sorc by miles.

Dmg is already lowish considering it has no additional effects like fear or petrify and is only associated to a weak passive.

Traveltime seems rather irrelevant imo - you´re either able to force a hit with frags fired before cage or after. Wouldn´t change anything imo.

So it would come down to dmg being reduced - which would only be relevant if dmg is so low that it´s neglible overall. Resulting in basically the status quo on live.

From my perspective that´s not really constructive bc the ability does not get improved (or so marginally that it makes no difference).
It´s making it as bad as it´s on live but changing something to sell as an alibibuff.

Travel time is extremely relevant. If it were instant, you’d have time to dodge the following frags. Seeing as it’s not, by the time cage hits you frags is already in the air, especially if the sorc is at range.

Are you advocating for rune cage to stay as it is then? Because the “no suggestion is good but I have none either” way of thinking is not very constructive either.

If it were instant you could cast frags (let the animation play that´s insanely long) and followup with anicanceled cage guaranteeing the hit that way.

No i´m not saying that - I´ve stated earlier what i´d do (change dmg into dot OR give it minor vulnerability + a 30% snare for the duration).

I´m just saying that for constructive feedback you have to think about implications and effects of changes a little more than 5 minutes.

pieratsos wrote: »

Leave the dmg as is. Make the cc dodgeable. Probably blockable to so it actually has a counter.

And why would i use that instead of reach?
Worse dmg.
No dot.
Worse passive.
No chance to procc statuseffects.
Way more expensive (if compared to masterreach).

Aedaryl · May 2018

Subversus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:

WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.

Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.

I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.

The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).

Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.

NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.

But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.

The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.

Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.

In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).

What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.

...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.

Sorcs don’t really lack the ability to burst tanky targets on the pts though. When you can 1 shot a 30k hp heavy armor tank you know there’s a problem. Anyone denying that either has an agenda or is delusional.

You can't one shot a tank with 30k HP with an openworld build. NO WAY.

pieratsos · May 2018

Subversus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Leave the dmg as is. Make the cc dodgeable. Probably blockable to so it actually has a counter.

That would be fine with me balance wise, but sorc needs an undodgeable/unblockable cc, so no.

Unblockable is debatable since sorcs suck against tanks so unblockable cc to get some dmg in wouldnt be that much of an issue even tho im against stuff ignoring basic defence mechanics. But why do sorcs need undodgeable cc? Against non tanks builds sorcs have enough dmg to kill them. The combo just has counterplay as it should be and as it was with frag cc or reach cc.

Minalan · May 2018

DDuke wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:

WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.

Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.

I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.

The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).

Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.

NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.

But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.

The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.

Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.

In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).

What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.

...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.

Rune cage on live is actually really good against tanks. How? You force-drop block for a couple of seconds.

I still think major breach on frags should be a thing rather than damage on cage. All of the nightblades want cage to be a DOT so they can just suppress it with cloak. I’d rather see frags hit harder and fracture, and be able to guarantee a hit with cage:

pieratsos · May 2018

Derra wrote: »

And why would i use that instead of reach?
Worse dmg.
No dot.
Worse passive.
No chance to procc statuseffects.
Way more expensive (if compared to masterreach).

Well for starters if we are going to compare them then it would have to be with reach, not master reach. Master reach implicates gear too so it makes no sense to compare them.

I didnt say that making it dodgeable/blockable and leaving the dmg as is will be the final change or perfect change. But at least it seems like a good starting point to buff the freaking ability and make it worth using but not completely stupid.

But im confused, if the dmg is less than reach (not master reach) then whats all the fuss about suddenly the ability being completely broken? If its less than normal reach then the dmg should be trivial.

Derra · May 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

And why would i use that instead of reach?
Worse dmg.
No dot.
Worse passive.
No chance to procc statuseffects.
Way more expensive (if compared to masterreach).

Well for starters if we are going to compare them then it would have to be with reach, not master reach. Master reach implicates gear too so it makes no sense to compare them.

I didnt say that making it dodgeable/blockable and leaving the dmg as is will be the final change or perfect change. But at least it seems like a good starting point to buff the freaking ability and make it worth using but not completely stupid.

But im confused, if the dmg is less than reach (not master reach) then whats all the fuss about suddenly the ability being completely broken? If its less than normal reach then the dmg should be trivial.

It deals ~15% more tooltip dmg than reach but lacks 10% penetration.

It can be compared to masterreach because if reach is used it´s better to go for 5p backbar 5p body + masterstaff.

I wouldn´t think a second about using it if it were dodgeable/blockable. It would be worse than currently on live.

The ability isn´t even that overperforming on pts - unless used vs squishy builds (as in medium armor).

pieratsos · May 2018

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

And why would i use that instead of reach?
Worse dmg.
No dot.
Worse passive.
No chance to procc statuseffects.
Way more expensive (if compared to masterreach).

Well for starters if we are going to compare them then it would have to be with reach, not master reach. Master reach implicates gear too so it makes no sense to compare them.

I didnt say that making it dodgeable/blockable and leaving the dmg as is will be the final change or perfect change. But at least it seems like a good starting point to buff the freaking ability and make it worth using but not completely stupid.

But im confused, if the dmg is less than reach (not master reach) then whats all the fuss about suddenly the ability being completely broken? If its less than normal reach then the dmg should be trivial.

It deals ~15% more tooltip dmg than reach but lacks 10% penetration.

It can be compared to masterreach because if reach is used it´s better to go for 5p backbar 5p body + masterstaff.

I wouldn´t think a second about using it if it were dodgeable/blockable. It would be worse than currently on live.

The ability isn´t even that overperforming on pts - unless used vs squishy builds (as in medium armor).

You can say that reach has the advantage of being able to be used with master staff to become stronger but directly comparing them as if master reach is the base ability doesnt make much sense. A lot of people dont even have access to that cause they dont have a master staff. Master staff is supposed to be a unique weapon dropping from "hard" content. If rune cage could just compare it without using a weapon then whats the point of master staff in the first place?

But what if it was a good cc dealing enough dmg so you dont lose pressure by sacrificing a GCD and maybe also having extra buffs/debuffs or some other unique bonus attached to it to compensate for being dodgeable/blockable? Why not consider it then?

So if its overperforming against squishy medium armor builds then it only makes sense that being undodgeable is the issue, no?

Subversus · May 2018

Derra wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

One thing i´d like to see of all the NBs that do not play sorc on live yet continue raving about how OP sorc is on pts:

Post constructive feedback.

CAGE OP - plz nerf (even if you make a video of it) is not constructive and if you repeat it a 100 times you come off as someone on an agenda. Especially if you make bow gank videos instakilling people with no chance to fight back and label that as "bowbuilds finally becoming vaible".

What do you think should be changed about cage to make it more desireable than on live - but less broken than on pts?

What do you think should be changed about sorcs to make them more fun and diverse than on live but not broken (because sorc is neither diverse nor particularly fun to play on live nor particularly strong - especially compared to nb)?

How do you think the problem of having overperforming (debateable) 1v1 defense but lacking XvX should be adressed?

I already gave my suggestion to fixing cage: reduce the damage and remove the travel time. If travel time is removed, damage doesn’t really need to be reduced that much imo.

I won’t even be using it on live in cyro though, I’ll stick to master destro builds, but yeah. I would rather not have players that (as you said) are average sorcs/haven’t played sorc on live suddenly start wiping the floor with everything just because rune cage lowers the ceiling of sorc by miles.

Dmg is already lowish considering it has no additional effects like fear or petrify and is only associated to a weak passive.

Traveltime seems rather irrelevant imo - you´re either able to force a hit with frags fired before cage or after. Wouldn´t change anything imo.

So it would come down to dmg being reduced - which would only be relevant if dmg is so low that it´s neglible overall. Resulting in basically the status quo on live.

From my perspective that´s not really constructive bc the ability does not get improved (or so marginally that it makes no difference).
It´s making it as bad as it´s on live but changing something to sell as an alibibuff.

Travel time is extremely relevant. If it were instant, you’d have time to dodge the following frags. Seeing as it’s not, by the time cage hits you frags is already in the air, especially if the sorc is at range.

Are you advocating for rune cage to stay as it is then? Because the “no suggestion is good but I have none either” way of thinking is not very constructive either.

If it were instant you could cast frags (let the animation play that´s insanely long) and followup with anicanceled cage guaranteeing the hit that way.

No i´m not saying that - I´ve stated earlier what i´d do (change dmg into dot OR give it minor vulnerability + a 30% snare for the duration).

I´m just saying that for constructive feedback you have to think about implications and effects of changes a little more than 5 minutes.

There’s a reason nobody uses meteor > fear > merciless > whatever anymore. Meanwhile meteor > undodgeable cc > frags > pulse (all unavoidable save for lucky shuffle rolls) is somehow destroying everything in it’s path? Just saying :P

You can animation cancel rune cage and frags, the length of their animations is irrelevant. Waiting for the animation to play out like you suggested just leaves the enemy at least some room to counter play - which is good. You’re contradicting yourself, I am starting to suspect you have an agenda. I play sorc too (hell I’ve played it more than magblade these last 2 months) and I don’t want the pts rune cage on live, because I know it’s bad for balance.

Changing the damag to a dot - sure; but make it a long dot. Adding vulnerability? No. God no. What’s the difference between rune cage doing 5k damage or the following attackS doing 8% more damage? There is none. If anything, vulnerability would be a buff over the pts rune lol.

You can’t possibly say that the way rune cage is now is fine (travel time wise), it offers 0 chance to counter play meteor bursts, save for being on the right bar at the right time to pop a resto ult.

I have thought of the implications and effects for a while now, while I’ve been constantly one shotting people on the pts. The dot option would be the best course of action if they’re keen on letting travel time stay as it is. Otherwise keep the damage (maybe reduce it by a bit) and completely take away the travel time. At least that way it would require a little bit of skill to pull off, compared to the braindead playstyle sorc has on pts right now.

Subversus · May 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:

WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.

Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.

I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.

The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).

Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.

NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.

But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.

The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.

Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.

In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).

What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.

...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.

Sorcs don’t really lack the ability to burst tanky targets on the pts though. When you can 1 shot a 30k hp heavy armor tank you know there’s a problem. Anyone denying that either has an agenda or is delusional.

You can't one shot a tank with 30k HP with an openworld build. NO WAY.

2k mag regen, 900 stam regen and 14k stam. It would work wonders in open world.

People that say shadowrend/necro/shackle doesn’t work open world don’t know what they’re talking about. Magblades have been playing with necro/shackle in open world for months now. What’s the difference between shadowrend or 1 domi? Not a single one.

My point again. People that have no idea what is what when it comes to magicka somehow are destroying on sorc, but I’m sure it’s fine.

Subversus · May 2018

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:

WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.

Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.

I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.

The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).

Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.

NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.

But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.

The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.

Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.

In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).

What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.

...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.

Rune cage on live is actually really good against tanks. How? You force-drop block for a couple of seconds.

I still think major breach on frags should be a thing rather than damage on cage. All of the nightblades want cage to be a DOT so they can just suppress it with cloak. I’d rather see frags hit harder and fracture, and be able to guarantee a hit with cage:

This is the first time I have EVER agreed with you on something. Breach on frags would be nice, and a buff to my sorc lmao.

Derra · May 2018

Subversus wrote: »

You can animation cancel rune cage and frags, the length of their animations is irrelevant. Waiting for the animation to play out like you suggested just leaves the enemy at least some room to counter play - which is good. You’re contradicting yourself, I am starting to suspect you have an agenda. I play sorc too (hell I’ve played it more than magblade these last 2 months) and I don’t want the pts rune cage on live, because I know it’s bad for balance.

I´m not contradicting myself. You don´t understand what i say.

Currently you force a hit with runecage => frags.
If runecage were to land instantly you could force the same hit to occur with frags => cage. There is literally no difference (apart from cage getting a lot deadlier with overload).

Quote me where i state i want the runecage to hit live. I can hardly contradict myself if i´ve stated about 10 times throughout this topic that i don´t think runecage is balanced.
I have an agenda - i don´t want the live runecage or something resembling it in effectivity - because it´s bad and isn´t competetive to masterreach or even normal reach neither on live nor would it be in summerset.

Subversus wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:

WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.

Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.

I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.

The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).

Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.

NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.

But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.

The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.

Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.

In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).

What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.

...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.

Sorcs don’t really lack the ability to burst tanky targets on the pts though. When you can 1 shot a 30k hp heavy armor tank you know there’s a problem. Anyone denying that either has an agenda or is delusional.

You can't one shot a tank with 30k HP with an openworld build. NO WAY.

2k mag regen, 900 stam regen and 14k stam. It would work wonders in open world.

People that say shadowrend/necro/shackle doesn’t work open world don’t know what they’re talking about. Magblades have been playing with necro/shackle in open world for months now. What’s the difference between shadowrend or 1 domi? Not a single one.

My point again. People that have no idea what is what when it comes to magicka somehow are destroying on sorc, but I’m sure it’s fine.

People keep destroying in duels with shadowrend buffed by petcurse - try utilizing an uncontrollable pet with ~25m range open world.
The build looses out a lot outnumbered (and becomes outright useless in grp settings) - and i´m stating that bc i´ve actually played shadowrend necro open world a lot on sorc solo and in grp. It´s niche and gets outdone by oder setups.

Derra · May 2018

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I have ONE question for all the nervous nelly Sorcs who are asking Rune Cage to be nerfed or re-worked:

WHERE is Sorc damage supposed to be coming from in the Summerset update? Because what we have now is not enough. This isn't even in dispute, or at least it shouldn't be.

Basically, my opinion is that anything a Stam Warden should be able to kill, Mag Sorcs should be able to kill, too. Anything a Stamblade should kill in two seconds, should definitely be killable by a Sorc in the 4 seconds our burst takes to set up. Similarly, anybody a Mag DK can kill, I should be able to kill... you get the picture.

I'm not going to be happy until Sorcs reach parity with the better builds in the game... otherwise, what is the point of playing a Sorc? I don't really care where the damage comes from, it just needs to be there. In my opinion, ZOS doesn't need to be nerfing Rune Cage until an effective alternative is offered.

The change of runecage --> making a dot e.g. wouldnt need to be a nerf. It could be a nerf on max burst but should increase sorc dps with the goal of making it easier for sorc to kill sword and board tanks. Even on life my problem with sorc is normally not killing dodge spammers its more like perma blockers (since sorc damage per second isnt too high).

Sure I m ok on having an added dot to rune cage. But there is no way sorc burst is remotely close to what nightblade or warden has on live.

NB burst is very easy to evade if u know how to... warden burst is the same.

But its much easier to land and warden in this case does not need an ultimate to burst as well. Anyway that's not the point.

The point is sorc burst on live is currently not good enough. What's the point of landing a burst if it hits like a wet noodle. Rune cage is one of the options to fill that gap. I am aware its unavoidable damage but I would prefer to have something until alternatives are figured out.

Lack of burst damage to kill tankier targets is a universal problem on Live (and PTS) - you burst, they heal/shield up ad infinitum. This is nothing new.

In fact, sorc ranks pretty high when it comes to burst damage (I believe apart from a few gank builds, only stamina warden can pull off more burst damage if they land Shalks & everything).

What sorcs lack isn't burst, it's pressure - which is why regular sorc builds don't tend to do well in duels for example while pet sorcs dominate them.

...and this is exactly why they shouldn't be giving more burst to abilities like Rune Cage, but rather buff skills that would help against tank builds (or buff Rune Cage in a way that helps vs those, not vs non-tank builds that can't avoid the Rune Cage), as well as make pets more viable (i.e. smarter) in Cyrodiil.

Rune cage on live is actually really good against tanks. How? You force-drop block for a couple of seconds.

I still think major breach on frags should be a thing rather than damage on cage. All of the nightblades want cage to be a DOT so they can just suppress it with cloak. I’d rather see frags hit harder and fracture, and be able to guarantee a hit with cage:

Strange - i don´t have as much issues with tanks as i have with other sorcs.
Breach is literally useless vs shieldstacking (and the nonexistant spellresi beneath).

I like the cage dmg on pts because it finally allows sorc vs sorc (the most boring matchup in eso history) to end. For that reason i can´t find any appeal in breach on frags. It wouldn´t change anything.

You have to think about a dot on cage this way - if it´s a 6s dot (with cc immunity being 7s) nbs would have 1s where they could attack.
It should also procc blood magic which would finally be a reliable way to utilize that stupid currently useless passive.

Maulkin · May 2018

I got an idea. I think in the same vain that the counter to Cloak is in the NB skill tree, they should do something with Sorcs against shields.

You know how there is the Shattering Blows CP option for increasing damage against shields? Imagine if there was Minor/Major version of that...
- Minor Perforation: Increase your damage against shields by 15%
- Major Perforation: Increase your damage against shields by 30%

Then imagine if Frags granted the caster with Major Perforation. It's not an Xv1 buff since the target is not getting more damage from everyone, just from that one opponent whom they have to focus and kill first. And it would stop these endless fights between MagSorcs. The key obviously is to not start adding that buff to all skills like they did with Snares but leave it only on the Sorc.

As for Cage it could become, not anti-Sorc but an anti tank mechanic. Change the burst to a DoT and add Minor Breach. Would somewhat help in taking down those tanky foes without being OP against everyone squishy.

_Ahala_ · May 2018

Perforation sound more dangerous for non sorc mages like magden and it would probably end destroying them while “balancing” sorcs like Defile did for several stam classes when it was made to counter magplars... oh wait you said just for caster... that i am ok with